Comparison of rifle Builders

dCorbus

i guess HPS ammo is not allowed here

Of course it is

Just an opinion why not go to rifle craft for 475 stg +vat to get any action you have rebarreled to any barell , any caliber you want and that includes proofing

Thats a decent price if it's all inclusive.
But does that include the price of the barrel? And if so, which one?

Its a cheap option

It's only cheap if it includes a top-end custom match-grade barrel

UK£475 = €560+
VAT @ 20% = UK£95 = €113
= €673 + Shipping + Insurance

So you're talking about the guts of at least €750 all in.

Or.....

Why not just take a drive to Athlone or elsewhere and get a custom match-grade barrel fitted for in and around about the same price? And thereby support your local professionals while you're at it? Plus you'd be avoiding the hassle of shipping your pride-and-joy over to the UK and shipping it back again - and hoping you get what you're looking for. Riflecraft are good by all accounts - but why go to all that hassle, when you can get exactly the same job done equally well, if not better, down the road?

stick shooter

dCorbus wrote: »

Of course it is



Thats a decent price if it's all inclusive.
But does that include the price of the barrel? And if so, which one?



It's only cheap if it includes a top-end custom match-grade barrel

UK£475 = €560+
VAT @ 20% = UK£95 = €113
= €673 + Shipping + Insurance

So you're talking about the guts of at least €750 all in.

Or.....

Why not just take a drive to Athlone or elsewhere and get a custom match-grade barrel fitted for in and around about the same price? And thereby support your local professionals while you're at it? Plus you'd be avoiding the hassle of shipping your pride-and-joy over to the UK and shipping it back again - and hoping you get what you're looking for. Riflecraft are good by all accounts - but why go to all that hassle, when you can get exactly the same job done equally well, if not better, down the road?

Well they quoted a kriegar barell at that price .for 470 stg plus vat including proofing well i could be wrong but thats not two bad .Plus they told me that any barell i wanted for that price

gunhappy_ie

stick shooter wrote: »

Well they quoted a kriegar barell at that price .for 470 stg plus vat including proofing well i could be wrong but thats not two bad .Plus they told me that any barell i wanted for that price

IF true, and you could get a Krieger (being from the US and having obligations to the US market) within a reasionable time frame..............


Then it would be worth the money

But again thats a big IF !!

stick shooter

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

IF true, and you could get a Krieger (being from the US and having obligations to the US market) within a reasionable time frame..............


Then it would be worth the money

But again thats a big IF !!

Sorry they give you a time line and price ,What can the irish guys give other than that;)(well)

gunhappy_ie

stick shooter wrote: »

Sorry they give you a time line and price ,What can the irish guys give other than that;)(well)

I wasnt ordering the barrel but it came directly from the guy that was.

But id you pay X and are promised Y within a time frame .............. you expect it !

dCorbus

they give you a time line and price ,What can the irish guys give other than that

What the Irish Guy(s) can give, is the reassurance that you won't have to fly to the UK and drive to Norfolk to have a face-to-face chat about what you'd like done and the best way to do it.

What the Irish Guy(s) can give, is the reassurance that they will meet with you on your range, test fire the rifle, and stand ready to make notes on any tweaks needed, after the work is done, to make sure you are happy with the results.

What the Irish Guy(s) can give, is the reassurance that if you do have an issue after the work is done, you don't have to fly to the UK and drive to Norfolk to have yet another face-to-face chat.

But, other than that, there's not a lot extra they can offer you!

TBH that sounds cheap as chips for a Krieger custom barrel, supplied, shipped, chambered, fitted, crowned, and tested - and proofed too toboot.

they told me that any barell i wanted for that price

Any barrel?:cool:

What length barrel?
What contour barrel?
What grade barrel?
Fluted barrel or not?
etc
etc

Not to be knocking them (I actually like what they do), but perhaps you're glossing over some of the details on this? I honestly cannot believe that they can give you "any barrel you wanted for that price". Not calling you are liar, don't get me wrong, I'm just very surprised at that offer.

(Krieger quote $295 (ca. UK£185) for a .308 on their website and that presumably excludes any taxes, shipping, and permits out of the US)

gunhappy_ie

dCorbus wrote: »

TBH that sounds cheap as chips for a Krieger custom barrel, supplied, shipped, chambered, fitted, crowned, and tested - and proofed too toboot.



Any barrel?:cool:

What length barrel?
What contour barrel?
What grade barrel?
Fluted barrel or not?
etc
etc

Not to be knocking them (I actually like what they do), but perhaps you're glossing over some of the details on this? I honestly cannot believe that they can give you "any barrel you wanted for that price". Not calling you are liar, don't get me wrong, I'm just very surprised at that offer.

(Krieger quote $295 (ca. UK£185) for a .308 on their website site and that presumably excludes any taxes, shipping, and permits)

Ill plus 1 that .............


looks like were burnig the mig night oil............or whatever the saying is :P

dCorbus

We are!

And muggins here has to be lying in a bog in the morning!;):D So time to hit the scratcher!

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Well they quoted a kriegar barell at that price .for 470 stg plus vat including proofing well i could be wrong but thats not two bad .Plus they told me that any barell i wanted for that price

1. How much to ship a rifle overseas and back!
2. How much time and paperwork required
3. how much for postage??
4. Was that just fitting a barrel?

What calibre Kreiger barrel, and what length??

In real terms you would not see your rifle for up to a year if you send it from Ireland to UK.

And proofing is not required OR WANTED here!

zeissman

I got a quote of riflecraft last year to rebarrel my remmy 204.
It was for a pac-nor or border 26in stainless fluted in rem varmit contour.
The price was 595 sterling plus VAT.
That was for supplying and fitting only.

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

1. How much to ship a rifle overseas and back!
2. How much time and paperwork required
3. how much for postage??
4. Was that just fitting a barrel?

What calibre Kreiger barrel, and what length??

In real terms you would not see your rifle for up to a year if you send it from Ireland to UK.

And proofing is not required OR WANTED here!

I was quoted 70 euro postage there and back ,
When i was talking to andrew a 28" kreiger match grade barell in my choice of caliber was coming to 702 euro total plus shipping (if i wanted it longer there would be no extra charge)
How much is it to get the same work carried out over here.
I is very easy say that proofing is not required or WANTED when its not being carried out over here ,(You could be right i would not like to know if my rifle was worked on to a correct standard:eek: )
Have you yourself had many or any custom builds . Have you used rifle craft before to suggest that it could take up to a year to complete a build .All i am saying and its only my opinion that there is lots of options out there that seem cheaper than our irish gunsmiths.

stick shooter

zeissman wrote: »

I got a quote of riflecraft last year to rebarrel my remmy 204.
It was for a pac-nor or border 26in stainless fluted in rem varmit contour.
The price was 595 sterling plus VAT.
That was for supplying and fitting only.

595 stg works out at 705 euro plus 70 shipping which simple maths work out at 775 euro.I have not heard of many barrels being fitted over here for that price .;)

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

I was quoted 70 euro postage there and back ,
When i was talking to andrew a 28" kreiger match grade barell in my choice of caliber was coming to 702 euro total plus shipping (if i wanted it longer there would be no extra charge)
How much is it to get the same work carried out over here.
I is very easy say that proofing is not required or WANTED when its not being carried out over here ,(You could be right i would not like to know if my rifle was worked on to a correct standard:eek: )
Have you yourself had many or any custom builds . Have you used rifle craft before to suggest that it could take up to a year to complete a build .All i am saying and its only my opinion that there is lots of options out there that seem cheaper than our irish gunsmiths.

A couple of guys I know had them built a few years ago when there was no option of getting it done here. Point to note is nobody has got it done in years because it can be done here!!!!;)

You need permits to move your rifle in and out of the country and back in.
Insurance on carriage and carriage itself.

You would deffo be looking €1000+

What is proofing/stress testing?
Loading a Brand new shiny barrel with over the reccomended amount of powder and seeing if she blows! Then handing back and saying, it's OK Today.
Every Custom Rifle here is tested before the owner takes it back.

I have done a lot of study on the subject, and I have concluded if I wanted someone to wreck my brand new barrel and I to pay them I would need my head examined.

Seriously. You can have that all done here in a 6 week turn around and pay a deposit first, and the rest during construction and completion which spreads the payments over 6 weeks.

Riflecraft will want all the money up front

zeissman

stick shooter wrote: »

595 stg works out at 705 euro plus 70 shipping which simple maths work out at 775 euro.I have not heard of many barrels being fitted over here for that price .;)

That price of 595 sterling did not include VAT which would now work out at 714 sterling which would be around the 850 euro mark plus 70 euro postage which brings it up to 920 euro.
Anyone know how much the same would cost in Ireland ?

Tackleberrywho

zeissman wrote: »

That price of 595 sterling did not include VAT which would now work out at 714 sterling which would be around the 850 euro mark plus 70 euro postage which brings it up to 920 euro.
Anyone know how much the same would cost in Ireland ?

0906473803 or 0863260735
Give that man a call!

Think about it, if you got it done in Ireland you would have it in a few weeks.
And if you want any after sales service it is only a phonecall/car drive away

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

A couple of guys I know had them built a few years ago when there was no option of getting it done here. Point to note is nobody has got it done in years because it can be done here!!!!;)

You need permits to move your rifle in and out of the country and back in.
Insurance on carriage and carriage itself.

You would deffo be looking €1000+

What is proofing/stress testing?
Loading a Brand new shiny barrel with over the reccomended amount of powder and seeing if she blows! Then handing back and saying, it's OK Today.
Every Custom Rifle here is tested before the owner takes it back.

I have done a lot of study on the subject, and I have concluded if I wanted someone to wreck my brand new barrel and I to pay them I would need my head examined.

Seriously. You can have that all done here in a 6 week turn around and pay a deposit first, and the rest during construction and completion which spreads the payments over 6 weeks.

Riflecraft will want all the money up front

So you are talking about a few lads a few years ago.(but the fact is you have no personal experience with rifle craft.)
Have you had a custom build off any irish gun smith.
I am aware of what permits that are required to ship to the uk and back,
How are all the barrels in the uk proofed and not wrecked (your understanding of proofing is quiet poor)
So we are talking roughly 800 euro to get it built in the uk and 1000+ to get the same job done in ireland .By the time you take the cost of proofing and shipping off the 800 euro it leaves the irish gun smiths very dear .
So you believe it ok to over charge if you get to pay it over a period of time .From what i have read on here there is not many 6 week turn arounds .

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

0906473803 or 0863260735
Give that man a call!

Think about it, if you got it done in Ireland you would have it in a few weeks.
And if you want any after sales service it is only a phonecall/car drive away

What would the rough price be on a 28" 1-12 twist kreiger match grade barrel in .308 fitted to a remington action .Lets say a varmint, match contour. Are them barrels in stock and if not how long to get them in from the us.

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

What would the rough price be on a 28" 1-12 twist kreiger match grade barrel in .308 fitted to a remington action .Lets say a varmint, match contour. Are them barrels in stock and if not how long to get them in from the us.

I could not answer that.
You would have to ask the man himself.

I know he usually keeps .308 in stock as that is the most common custom jobs. Most .308 guys go 30" to get the fps for 1000 yards though.

And Ring him, as he gets millions of txts and he prefers to talk you through a build explaining the pro's cons on certain setups etc

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I could not answer that.
You would have to ask the man himself.

I know he usually keeps .308 in stock as that is the most common custom jobs. Most .308 guys go 30" to get the fps for 1000 yards though.

And Ring him, as he gets millions of txts and he prefers to talk you through a build explaining the pro's cons on certain setups etc

Tackleberrywho dont take this the wrong way but you keep saying he is cheaper than the uk but you have no idea of price.
And i guess it is safe to say you have never had a custom build.
I just find it very hard to take advise when you clearly dont know the facts yourself.

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Tackleberrywho dont take this the wrong way but you keep saying he is cheaper than the uk but you have no idea of price.
And i guess it is safe to say you have never had a custom build.
I just find it very hard to take advise when you clearly dont know the facts yourself.

Look my good man, do you think I am going to post a list price for all components online for all to see?
It is not my business to do so, and each customer is treated on an individual basis.

If you want to know a price ask Ezridax as he had his done recently

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Look my good man, do you think I am going to post a list price for all components online for all to see?
It is not my business to do so, and each customer is treated on an individual basis.

If you want to know a price ask Ezridax as he had his done recently

Tackleberrywho this is ware it all goes wrong all customers should be treated the same not on an individule basis ,
There should be a set rate for the work carried out and NOT charge by what car you pull up in. Any uk builder i have contacted have a flat rate for .ie rebarrel ,bedding ,recrown
Further more i never asked for a list price for individule components ,You said in an earlier post 1000 plus for a basic rebarrel which is in fact a rip off when the same service is provided in the uk including shipping and proofing for several hundred less and that is not just rifle craft ,
Jackson rifles and border barrel are even cheaper than rifle craft again.
The simple fact are they are cheaper by quiet a bit, If the irish gunsmiths are unwilling to charge a proper price and a proper service the i think the uk is the way forward. And another simple fact is there is only a few gunsmiths in this country and they think its a monopoly and they can charge what they like.
If you have no idea of the price of the services provided by your gunsmith why are you coming on an open form promoting his service and running down well established and recognised gunsmiths in the uk.But on the other hand if you are aware of prices please feel free to sent them to me via pm. And also what makes of barrels he would have in stock;)It should be interesting to compare prices .

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Tackleberrywho this is ware it all goes wrong all customers should be treated the same not on an individule basis ,
There should be a set rate for the work carried out and NOT charge by what car you pull up in. Any uk builder i have contacted have a flat rate for .ie rebarrel ,bedding ,recrown
Further more i never asked for a list price for individule components ,You said in an earlier post 1000 plus for a basic rebarrel which is in fact a rip off when the same service is provided in the uk including shipping and proofing for several hundred less and that is not just rifle craft ,
Jackson rifles and border barrel are even cheaper than rifle craft again.
The simple fact are they are cheaper by quiet a bit, If the irish gunsmiths are unwilling to charge a proper price and a proper service the i think the uk is the way forward. And another simple fact is there is only a few gunsmiths in this country and they think its a monopoly and they can charge what they like.
If you have no idea of the price of the services provided by your gunsmith why are you coming on an open form promoting his service and running down well established and recognised gunsmiths in the uk.But on the other hand if you are aware of prices please feel free to sent them to me via pm. And also what makes of barrels he would have in stock;)It should be interesting to compare prices .

28" Match Kreiger €850 INCLUDING VAT Fitted to your remington action in approx 4 weeks from today.

Barrels in stock.
I'm just off the Phone from my Rifle Builder.
I asked his permission to post prices.

Tell him Tackleberrywho sent ya!

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

28" Match Kreiger €850 INCLUDING VAT Fitted to your remington action in approx 4 weeks from today.

Barrels in stock.
I'm just off the Phone from my Rifle Builder.
I asked his permission to post prices.

Tell him Tackleberrywho sent ya!

Not a bad price but still too dear ,When you take rifle craft who is established for many years will do the same job including proofing for less than 700 euro , Its simple maths 850 - 700 = 150 , Plus riflecraft at that price will send the rifle to either london or birminghton for proofing .Now do you understand what i am saying about over charging

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Not a bad price but still too dear ,When you take rifle craft who is established for many years will do the same job including proofing for less than 700 euro , Its simple maths 850 - 700 = 150 , Plus riflecraft at that price will send the rifle to either london or birminghton for proofing .Now do you understand what i am saying about over charging

If you want to wait a year for a rifle to be in your hands, then by all means.
If you can get that price from Rifle craft and are prepared to wait then go for it.(assuming that includes sending the rifle to and from Ireland)

"And if you want your Rifle proofed" then off to the UK with ya.

I always try and support Home grown Irish SME's.
And since the Top Irish Shooters are nearly all using Irish Custom rigs.... Well it's good enough for me.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056078922
Adrian Casey who used an Irish Build.;)

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

So we are talking roughly 800 euro to get it built in the uk and 1000+ to get the same job done in ireland ......

Where is this €1000 price tag coming from. I've a few barrels done and none cost €1000. I even had a new barrel, threaded and fitted, glass and pillar bedded that did not cost €1,000.

So you believe it ok to over charge if you get to pay it over a period of time .

I do not like the implication that gunsmiths here are over charging. They are charging a fee that is appropriate for the work they are doing in a much, much smaller market than the UK. That and the fact that ANY barrel an Irish dealer uses here must be shipped from a distributor in the UK. The UK have a larger buying power and even a home barrel producing network. So yes, no doubt we are paying more in some/most circumstances, but its down to parts/product costs more so than the actual labour costs.

.From what i have read on here there is not many 6 week turn arounds

Now you have. 2 barrels, seperate builds, 5 week max turnaround from time i ordered to firing on the range. New barrel ordered 1 week ago and will be ready in 3 weeks.

stick shooter wrote: »

What would the rough price be on a 28" 1-12 twist kreiger match grade barrel in .308 fitted to a remington action .Lets say a varmint, match contour. Are them barrels in stock and if not how long to get them in from the us.

Ring around. Any prices here will be for different barrels and different guns.

stick shooter wrote: »

Tackleberrywho this is ware it all goes wrong all customers should be treated the same not on an individual basis ,

Well if i'm getting a few barrels every year or two i would expect a discount so yes there will be different prices for different customers based on repeat business. As it is in every aspect of sales.

You said in an earlier post 1000 plus for a basic rebarrel

Have to ask again where is this price coming from. I have never been charged, nor do i know anyone that has been charged €1000 for a basic rebarreling. Maybe for some "deluxe, Ultimate" barrel, and bedding job possibly, but again non that i have heard off.

And another simple fact is there is only a few gunsmiths in this country and they think its a monopoly and they can charge what they like.

Not a monoply, but think of it this way. 4.5 million people in Ireland. 230,000 firearm holders. 40,000 or so fullbore rifle holders. 1,000 of those are target shooters, and i mean target not plinking or occassional "try my gun out" shooters. Probably less than the 1,000 go the custom route, but for the purpose of this example we will leave it at 1,000.
The UK has a population of 62,000,000. Taking the same stats in percentages as Ireland, we have .051% of the population as target shooters. Thats a 31,620 customer base. Bit of a difference, and the reason other than the home brand barrels that the UK can and will continue to supply cheaper barrels than the Irish custom builders.

stick shooter wrote: »

Not a bad price but still too dear ,When you take rifle craft who is established for many years will do the same job including proofing for less than 700 euro , Its simple maths 850 - 700 = 150 , Plus riflecraft at that price will send the rifle to either london or birminghton for proofing

Earlier you said €770 including postage?

So €770 from €850 = €80. As dCorbus said i'll keep my money at home, where the builder is available to me for consultation, last minute alterations, accompanying me to the range, etc. As for proofing. If you want it done send it away. For now we do not have a proofing house and until we do and are required to use it the point is moot.

Also how do you think Rifle Craft became "established"? From lads going to them. How are current or future rifle builders supposed to improve, expand and even start a business if the idea of "well they're not around long enough" prevails?

.Now do you understand what i am saying about over charging

Over charging. :rolleyes:

Point here is you are set on sending your rifle to the UK to have it done. So be it. Some will take your advice and follow suit. Others will prefer to keep the business here for the sake of a box of rounds. I do not hold to your theory of the builders over charging because they can, and i like the idea that the builder is "available" to me when i want without having to ship the rifle/barrel back and forth should anything be wrong or need "tweaking".

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If you want to wait a year for a rifle to be in your hands, then by all means.
If you can get that price from Rifle craft and are prepared to wait then go for it.(assuming that includes sending the rifle to and from Ireland)

"And if you want your Rifle proofed" then off to the UK with ya.

I always try and support Home grown Irish SME's.
And since the Top Irish Shooters are nearly all using Irish Custom rigs.... Well it's good enough for me.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056078922
Adrian Casey who used an Irish Build.;)

Lets end it on this note and get back on topic,
I have a price from rifle craft , border barrels and also jackson rifles.
The simple fact is the prices are over the top in ireland ,Put it a very simple i know of rifles being sent from ireland to the uk to be built BUT i have never heard of them being sent from the uk to ireland .
Maybe the irish gunsmiths are the best kept secret or could it be the fact that there is over charging going on .
And the next fact ,You have quoted a twelve month turn around on a build and your builders turn around time is four weeks ,Yet another reason for the uk competition shooters to use the irish gunsmiths (NOT)
How many barrels are the uk target shooters using per year,I guess not that many if you think there is a twelve month turn around:eek:
Proofing is not a thing you ask for its a service provided .
I understand when you say about spending your money over here,But the fact is the same service is being provided some ware else at a greatly reduced price . Its very simple the irish gunsmiths may review there prices and there method of charging or i am sure more and more rifles will be sent to the uk to be built
tackleberrywho this is not a personal dig at any one gunsmith over here ,I think they all need to come back to reality .

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Lets end it on this note and get back on topic,
I have a price from rifle craft , border barrels and also jackson rifles.
The simple fact is the prices are over the top in ireland ,Put it a very simple i know of rifles being sent from ireland to the uk to be built BUT i have never heard of them being sent from the uk to ireland .
Maybe the irish gunsmiths are the best kept secret or could it be the fact that there is over charging going on .
And the next fact ,You have quoted a twelve month turn around on a build and your builders turn around time is four weeks ,Yet another reason for the uk competition shooters to use the irish gunsmiths (NOT)
How many barrels are the uk target shooters using per year,I guess not that many if you think there is a twelve month turn around:eek:
Proofing is not a thing you ask for its a service provided .
I understand when you say about spending your money over here,But the fact is the same service is being provided some ware else at a greatly reduced price . Its very simple the irish gunsmiths may review there prices and there method of charging or i am sure more and more rifles will be sent to the uk to be built
tackleberrywho this is not a personal dig at any one gunsmith over here ,I think they all need to come back to reality .

FYI, several Customs jobs from UK are being completed over here, especially after a glowing article in a Famous Rifle magazine.

You speak of a 4 week turn around, Proof house UK 4 week Min Turn around, Sending rifle to UK and back several weeks turn around.

Joining a queue in a UK company several more weeks.

Show me one guy that sent a rifle to the UK and received it back within a month, I'll take my hat off to them.

Remembering all the Imports from DOJ/Exports from DOJ and UK counterparts......

stick shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

FYI, several Customs jobs from UK are being completed over here, especially after a glowing article in a Famous Rifle magazine.

You speak of a 4 week turn around, Proof house UK 4 week Min Turn around, Sending rifle to UK and back several weeks turn around.

Joining a queue in a UK company several more weeks.

Show me one guy that sent a rifle to the UK and received it back within a month, I'll take my hat off to them.

Remembering all the Imports from DOJ/Exports from DOJ and UK counterparts......

When you say several are sending there rifles over here to be built do you mean one ,two or ten.

I do believe i never mentioned rifle crafts turn around time . Do believe you are the one on about the turnaround time,
Ezridax if you read back you will see that it was tackleberrywho that mentioned 1000+,I quoter what he said as a reference .
Is your gunsmiths turnaround time always one month.
And as for the time line you are being charged for it.
I am also aware of the work involved in the import and export of a rifle.

If we were talking about any other product other than a rifle say a scope ,mounts or stocks i would have no doubt that every one here would say go and buy for the cheaper company .

Ezriax you are right they all have to start some ware BUT not at the customers expense.

As for the higher materiel expense ,A registered person in a giving trade gets such a thing as trade discount ,To help make them competitive against rival companies .And if they choose not to pass off that discount to the customer well that up to them selves ,

What i am saying is not personal its just financial ,

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

When you say several are sending there rifles over here to be built do you mean one ,two or ten.

I do believe i never mentioned rifle crafts turn around time . Do believe you are the one on about the turnaround time,
Ezridax if you read back you will see that it was tackleberrywho that mentioned 1000+,I quoter what he said as a reference .
Is your gunsmiths turnaround time always one month.
And as for the time line you are being charged for it.
I am also aware of the work involved in the import and export of a rifle.

If we were talking about any other product other than a rifle say a scope ,mounts or stocks i would have no doubt that every one here would say go and buy for the cheaper company .

Ezriax you are right they all have to start some ware BUT not at the customers expense.

As for the higher materiel expense ,A registered person in a giving trade gets such a thing as trade discount ,To help make them competitive against rival companies .And if they choose not to pass off that discount to the customer well that up to them selves ,

What i am saying is not personal its just financial ,

Stall the Digger there.
You said €700 and shipping.
How much is shipping??
You have said you will have a rifle in 4 weeks from Riflecraft for considerably less than here.

Several RFD's here get work done in our custom rifle builders. So if it was cheaper over the pond, would they not be doing it??

Why do Fellas from the North come down here to get work done and not over to Rifle craft??

You seem to be hell bent on going to riflecraft, so why don't you??

I would not consider €850 including VAT as excessive for Top class work and a top class barrel. With an after-sales service that is second to none.

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

And the next fact ,You have quoted a twelve month turn around on a build and your builders turn around time is four weeks ,Yet another reason for the uk competition shooters to use the irish gunsmiths (NOT)

You may want to explain this one to me. Are you saying no to the 4 week turnaround, the quoted 12 month turnaround for English builders or what?

Ezridax if you read back you will see that it was tackleberrywho that mentioned 1000+,I quoter what he said as a reference .

In that case where are you getting the €1,000 price for a rebarrel here Tack?

Is your gunsmiths turnaround time always one month.

Not always. As i said a barrel i ordered a while ago sat in FoxFirearms for 2 weeks before he sent it to my builder. Still had it in 5 weeks though.

If we were talking about any other product other than a rifle say a scope ,mounts or stocks i would have no doubt that every one here would say go and buy for the cheaper company

For the exact same product yes. I will always try and get the best equipment and if that means going abroad i have no problem doing so, but the savings would have to be worthwhile. For example i have been checking for prices on Nightforce scopes recently and includin America, taxes, duties, etc Ireland are the cheapest. Average price in England £1600 - £1720 for a 12-42x56. The same scope here is max €1850.

Then there are the items that cannot be gotten here or as quick as someone may like. I ordered a set of Nightforce ringas a fe months back from England. Not because they were cheaper, but because the crowd in Galway (cannot remember their name) told me it would take a few months. 5 days from England, so don't think for one minute that i am suggesting paying a higher price to "keep it Irish".

Ezridax you are right they all have to start some ware BUT not at the customers expense

Not refering to expense here i'm refering to people's attitude of, "sure hw is only around a few months i'm not going near him". Everyone desrves a chance to prove themselves and the only way they can get that chance is for someone to take a "chance" and let them at it.

As for the higher materiel expense ,A registered person in a giving trade gets such a thing as trade discount ,To help make them competitive against rival companies .And if they choose not to pass off that discount to the customer well that up to them selves ,

Trade discount on multiple/bulk orders. Problem is twofold. They still have a higher rate of taxes and duties here than the UK. Secondly the bulk buying power of the UK suppliers outstrips the Irish by an unmeasureable amount. We have 2 builders here. They have dozens. If Ireland were to have another 4 - 6 rifle builders then you would see a significant drop not only from each builder trying to out price the other, but they could bulk order barrels. At the moment even with the 2 builders there is not such a significant demand for custom rilfes/work to warrant those extra custom builders, but in time there will be.

What i am saying is not personal its just financial ,

As am i. Just putting forward my "case" for the Irish builders.

stick shooter

Ezridax wrote: »

You may want to explain this one to me. Are you saying no to the 4 week turnaround, the quoted 12 month turnaround for English builders or what?



In that case where are you getting the €1,000 price for a rebarrel here Tack?



Not always. As i said a barrel i ordered a while ago sat in FoxFirearms for 2 weeks before he sent it to my builder. Still had it in 5 weeks though.



For the exact same product yes. I will always try and get the best equipment and if that means going abroad i have no problem doing so, but the savings would have to be worthwhile. For example i have been checking for prices on Nightforce scopes recently and includin America, taxes, duties, etc Ireland are the cheapest. Average price in England £1600 - £1720 for a 12-42x56. The same scope here is max €1850.

Then there are the items that cannot be gotten here or as quick as someone may like. I ordered a set of Nightforce ringas a fe months back from England. Not because they were cheaper, but because the crowd in Galway (cannot remember their name) told me it would take a few months. 5 days from England, so don't think for one minute that i am suggesting paying a higher price to "keep it Irish".



Not refering to expense here i'm refering to people's attitude of, "sure hw is only around a few months i'm not going near him". Everyone desrves a chance to prove themselves and the only way they can get that chance is for someone to take a "chance" and let them at it.



Trade discount on multiple/bulk orders. Problem is twofold. They still have a higher rate of taxes and duties here than the UK. Secondly the bulk buying power of the UK suppliers outstrips the Irish by an unmeasureable amount. We have 2 builders here. They have dozens. If Ireland were to have another 4 - 6 rifle builders then you would see a significant drop not only from each builder trying to out price the other, but they could bulk order barrels. At the moment even with the 2 builders there is not such a significant demand for custom rilfes/work to warrant those extra custom builders, but in time there will be.



As am i. Just putting forward my "case" for the Irish builders.

First off did you read all of the earlier posts ,If you did you would then realise ware the 1000+ came from. and also who is quoting turn around times also i looking back true my earlier posts and cant seem so find ware i mentioned a four week turn around from rifle craft,

Facts speak for them selves ,Its cheaper to go to an uk based company to get a rifle built .Not to mention the fact they can load develop to suite the giving chamber which no gun smith can do over here.

As far as any of you are aware has your gun smith let a build drag out for several months .Bare in mind all the facts and figures that has was able to quoted,

You have also just said with more gun builders over here one would be trying to out price each other. Now you are starting to the monopoly effect.Right say for arguments sake a kreiger barrel sitting over here costing 300 euro so crowning threading a fitting costs 550 euro not a bad days work.;)

tackleberrywho that makes it even more expensive over here if it can be shipped to the uk and back plus proofed for less than it can be built for over here, Also we are talking about world renowned rifle builders .Which you will find were also in the same magazine as your gun smith but they have being in many many more.

+1 for the uk builders

zeissman

My quote from riflecraft worked out at around 920 euro once I added vat, postage and allowed for the sterling difference although that was for a fluted barrel.
I think I would rather get it done here even if it was a bit more expensive as its a lot less hassle and if I have a problem I can just jump in the car and take it back myself.

Cass

As far as any of you are aware has your gun smith let a build drag out for several months .

No. To the best of my knowledge i do not know of any build that has dragged on for months. Although i do not know of every gun ever built.

As for the this ..............

Bare in mind all the facts and figures that has was able to quoted,

No idea what you are refering to.

You have also just said with more gun builders over here one would be trying to out price each other. Now you are starting to the monopoly effect.

I'm sorry, but i really do not understand what you are saying here.

+1 for the uk builders

+1 to the Irish lads for giving us another option.

dCorbus

I'm confused.

First off, stick shooter is saying Irish custom riflesmiths are overcharging and are over priced.

But if you do the maths, the cost differences are quite minimal, if any at all.

He first states that he could get "any" barrel done for UK£475, then it was UK£470, then the shipping cost of €70 was added in. Frankly, I'm confused! Which is it?

Oh, and how much insurance was included in the postage?

How are you getting the rifle to the UK? Take it off yourself and stick it in an Post, or send it by courier? Was the €70 price you quoted for shipping the rifle with or without the existing barrel? A Riflecase-sized package would be a bit more than €70 to courier I would have thought. Which courier are you using for this?

If you think you'll get your rifle back for the prices and timelines you've mentioned, fire ahead. I think you're going to find that there are other costs involved and hassles involved which you may not have factored in.

My quote from riflecraft worked out at around 920 euro once I added vat, postage and allowed for the sterling difference although that was for a fluted barrel.

This sounds a tad more realistic for the whole job TBH.

Your "costs" as you've given them are:

UK£475 = €560+
VAT @ 20% = UK£95 = €113
= €673 + €70 Shipping + Insurance(?)
= €743

So let's say that's the cost for the job from RifleCraft - What other quotes have you been given by custom rifle builders here? Or have you even bothered to contact them?

A figure of €850 was quoted above (by tack on behalf of fw) - but that's given a) without you discussing the project with the builder and b) without a face-to-face discussion of what you need or require. How do you know that this figure cannot be improved upon?

So let's say that the figures are €743 and €850 for comparison - Frankly, IMO that's not overcharging! €100 difference? But if you're dead set on giving your business to the UK fire ahead.

Oh, one last thing, what's the exchange rate you're working off?;):rolleyes:

Facts speak for them selves ,Its cheaper to go to an uk based company to get a rifle built .

So you say - Please do come back and let us know the actual and final costs when you've got the rifle back? Thanks.

a kreiger barrel sitting over here costing 300 euro

Eh? Where did you get that figure from?

As I mentioned before, Krieger themselves quote $295 (ca. UK£185 = ca. €220) for a .308 on their website and that presumably excludes any taxes, shipping, and permits out of the US) - So if you can get a Krieger over here for €300 all-in, please do let us know where I can get my hands on them? Thanks.

i know of rifles being sent from ireland to the uk to be built BUT i have never heard of them being sent from the uk to ireland

Just because you haven't heard about it - doesn't mean it doesn't happen!;):D

crowning threading a fitting costs 550 euro not a bad days work.

How many hours do you think it takes to remove, prep, ream, chamber, crown, and fit, test, tweak etc rifle barrel installation, not including the paperwork, overheads, storage, insurance, permits, etc.?

Have you yourself had many or any custom builds . Have you used rifle craft before

Have you?

stick shooter

In the interest of fairness i have tried contact Irelands second rifle builder for several days :eek:.But it seems he is a very hard man to get in contact with, so unfortunately i have no price from southern rifle and optics.

Since i was quote by tackleberrywho a price from Irish custom rifles which is 850 euro that is him struck off my list.

I just got off the phone with border barrels in the uk who has just quoted 490stg which includes vat and proofing. Which equates APP. 586euro .

The turn around time from border barrels including the four weeks for proofing is ten weeks.;)

This exchanged rate is based on this mornings market value of the stg vs euro.

As for the paper work to export and import my rifle, my local gun shop , whom i find very obliging is going to take care of it for me ,Which is noting special as he does this for any of his customers.;)
The shipping costs including insurance is 70 - 90 euro .

You have at least two maybe three visits to your gunsmiths in ireland. (all going well at that) Which nobody seems or wants to factor in the travelling and time expense which i am sure will match or possibly excied the shipping costs to the uk.

Legally no one can use a firearm in the uk or northern ireland with out it being proofed . Why would i restrict my self to having a gun built in ireland (at a much higher price) And not be able to hunt , target shoot or sell my rifle in the uk and northern ireland ?

dCorbus

Fair enough on the other gunsmith, but maybe you shouldn't just take tacl's word for it, and discuss your project with fw yourself? That's what I'd do myself - rather than relying on second hand information (no offence meant or intend to tac on that - he was doing you a favour in checking the cost with fw)

I just got off the phone with border barrels in the uk who has just quoted 490stg which includes vat and proofing. Which equates APP. 586euro

That's a very good price TBH.

So, it's Border Barrels who are getting the job now? Does that mean that RifleCraft were planning to overcharge you too?

I'm being sarcastic, but do you see what I mean? If an Irish craftsman charges you more, it's overcharging and sharking, if an Englishman does it, you're cool with that, and if a Scotsman give you the right price you're happy? Have you rung anyone in Wales yet?:rolleyes::rolleyes::D

The shipping costs including insurance is 70 - 90 euro .

That too is an excellent price. To courier a 4kg package half the size of a rifle case from Dublin to London is about €75 each way with DHL (although they won't ship firearms afaik). If you're getting this done there and back for €90 that's a good price - Which company are you getting to ship it for you (I may have some business for them)?

You have at least two maybe three visits to your gunsmiths in ireland. (all going well at that) Which nobody seems or wants to factor in the travelling and time expense which i am sure will match or possibly excied the shipping costs to the uk.

I don't follow you on this one - Surely, two or three visits may be required to the gunsmith, regardless of whether they're in the UK or here? And shouldn't you be also factoring in this potential cost yourself?

And not be able to hunt , target shoot or sell my rifle in the uk and northern ireland ?

Not true. Not all countries require proofing to be carried out - and that doesn't prevent those firearms being shot in the UK. The UK Visitors Permit make's no mention of this. And I've never heard anything of the kind.



But look, you're obviously dead set on going down this road - which is perfectly fine by me, to each his own and it's no skin off my nose - but please do come back and post the actual costs start-to-finish of your project once you have the rifle back in 10 weeks. Seriously, if you do get the job done (including all transport, permits, shipping, travel, materials, work, etc.) for the price you are saying, I'd be interested in hearing what the final cost turned out to be. Thanks.

stick shooter

Ill bare in mind what you say about tackleberrywho

I am not say all countries i was referring to the uk and northern ireland . Even for visitors .

Proofing is not just a stamp it is a safety requirement in the uk and northern ireland . What safety documents or product liability insurance are giving to irish built non proofed rifles.??

dCorbus

Now we're getting silly.

Ill bare in mind what you say about tackleberrywho

First off: I didn't say anything personally about tackleberrywho. I merely commented that it's always better to get your information from the horses-mouth and not to rely too heavily on second-hand information, no matter how reliable and well-informed the source is. Please don't imply something I did not post or intend - In fact my earlier post clearly states "no offence meant or intend to tac on that".

Secondly: You haven't addressed any of the questions I asked about why you think it's OK for a UK gunsmith to charge more than another UK gunsmith, but it's not OK for an Irish gunsmith to charge more? Surely this is an excellent example of double-standards being applied?

Thirdly: You haven't clarified how or who is shipping your rifle? Fair enough, if you want to keep this commercially sensitive information to yourself. But it would be useful information for your fellow posters to be aware of, so they may avail of the same firms services at such a good rate.

Fourthly: You haven't commented on why two or three trips would be required to an Irish gunsmith, but not to a UK one - nor have you clarified whether your stated costs include for the potentiality of such trips.

I am not say all countries i was referring to the uk and northern ireland . Even for visitors

Neither did I.
What I posted was:

Not all countries require proofing to be carried out - and that doesn't prevent those firearms being shot in the UK.

And that is still true.

If you actually bother to check the UK legislation on this one, you will that it is not an offence to bring a rifle into the UK and shoot it if the unproofed firearm for your own personal use and while it remains your personal property it can be used unproofed.

And for your benefit, I quote:

The importation of unproved arms into the United Kingdom is subject to control as prescribed in Section 122(4) of the 1868 Act, as amended by the Act of 1978.

Notification of importation has to be given to the Proof House within seven days and/or the arms submitted to proof within twenty eight days of arrival in this country.

These regulations do not apply to small arms imported by any person for his own personal use, while they remain his own property. Penalties for offences are similar to those for the sale of unproved arms.

You may not, however, sell an unproofed firearm in the UK. However, there are reciprocal agreements between the UK and various other countries, Ireland included, relating to the requirements for proofing of a firearm. If the firearm complied with the proofing requirements (or otherwise) from a state with such a reciprocal agreement, then the firearm may not only be imported but could also be sold.

What safety documents or product liability insurance are giving to irish built non proofed rifles.??

I could equally ask the same question of UK-proofed firearms too - The Proof certificate does not indemnify or guarantee anything. It just states that the firearm did not explode or fail when the proofing house carried out it's testing. You don't get any product liability insurance with it.

The proof cert furthermore does not give any warrentees that the rifle and or barrel won't explode or fail on the next shot you put through it, nor on the 1001st shot put through it for that matter.

Irish riflesmiths may give / carry product liability insurance (I don't know - you'll have to ask them yourself), but there's the other niggling considerations of duty-of-care in tort, sale-of-goods-act, etc and a few other wee bits of legislation which would come back on the gunsmith if they didn't do their job correctly.

Plus I know for a fact that at least one of the gunsmith's here will fully test-fire your rifle before giving it back to you (which is all the UK proof houses do anyway - albeit with a load that would be considered unsafe to use under normal circumstances!)

Now, do you want to check your "facts" first, before stating what lads can and cannot use in the UK? Apart from the fact, that I don't appreciate your implication that I may have been acting illegally when firing my rifles in the UK. Thanks.

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

Ill bare in mind what you say about tackleberrywho

I am not say all countries i was referring to the uk and northern ireland . Even for visitors .

Proofing is not just a stamp it is a safety requirement in the uk and northern ireland . What safety documents or product liability insurance are giving to irish built non proofed rifles.??

So by your thinking no Remington can be fired in the UK as Remington do not Proof Rifles:eek::eek:

You asked for a price, I rang my Dealer, he me and gave you a price accordingly. (€850 Including VAT for Kreiger 28-32" barrel inclusive Fitted and Test fired by RFD)
I have got a LOT of work done with my rifles, and all had a great after sales service in Ireland.

You don't want to pay that price. So you want to go to the UK, so Add in Price of Airport Parking. Flights and a Bus/Train if you quote Ryanair, Phone calls to the UK and not to forget if you need to send the rifle back for tweaking.

You seem to be debating rather than buying?
If you go to Ireland Custom Rifle there is a price list on the counter for all Patrons to see.

stick shooter

That is strange i was talking to a very nice gentleman at bisley who kindly explained there policy on unproofed guns not allowed to be used on there range.

Also i have being talking to both proof houses in the uk and they made it quiet clear that no gun can be sold in the uk with out being first proofed .(even got to talk to the proof master quiet a jolly fella ) And that included remingtons

Sorry i am not shipping myself over, I am shipping the gun over . How many times do you feel you have to go to your gunsmith in ireland to get a job done??

There is other shooters i know very well that have sent there guns to the uk successfully to be built.

So irish custom rifles is more expensive to deal with , Does not proof his rifles,( but tests them himself)And is only building rifles a year or so,

Has he got product liability insurance ?

What relevant gunsmiting qualifying does he hold.?

Tackleberrywho

stick shooter wrote: »

That is strange i was talking to a very nice gentleman at bisley who kindly explained there policy on unproofed guns not allowed to be used on there range.

Also i have being talking to both proof houses in the uk and they made it quiet clear that no gun can be sold in the uk with out being first proofed .(even got to talk to the proof master quiet a jolly fella ) And that included remingtons

Sorry i am not shipping myself over, I am shipping the gun over . How many times do you feel you have to go to your gunsmith in ireland to get a job done??

There is other shooters i know very well that have sent there guns to the uk successfully to be built.

So irish custom rifles is more expensive to deal with , Does not proof his rifles,( but tests them himself)And is only building rifles a year or so,

Has he got product liability insurance ?

What relevant gunsmiting qualifying does he hold.?

I give up, believe what you like.
Do what you like. Everyone else is wrong anyway!

We are only feeding you by trying to tell the truth.
You seem to not want to believe anything we tell you.

dCorbus

I give up, believe what you like.
Do what you like. Everyone else is wrong anyway!

+1 on that



We have gone waaaaayyyyy of topic on this and this will be my last post on the topic of proofing and gunsmiths on this thread.

Personally I couldn't care less what stick shooter wants to do and could care even less where he wants to spend his money. Life is too short IMO to be 'debating' with posters who have neither the sense nor the grace to accept facts over hearsay. What I DO care about is lads posting factually incorrect information, implying shooters are in some way doing something illegal, and insinuating that craftsmen are unqualified. IMO verifiable and reliably-sourced facts trump hearsay everytime. I'll post the facts and leave it at that then.

My questions and the queries raised in previous posts still have not been answered, so therefore I must assume that the poster does not have an answer, does not want to answer, or does not understand the questions raised. The Goalposts keep moving - and the questions remain unanswered. So let's leave it at that.

Also i have being talking to both proof houses in the uk and they made it quiet clear that no gun can be sold in the uk with out being first proofed .(

Which bit of this don't you understand? (I'll quote it again just in case you didn't catch it the first time):

The importation of unproved arms into the United Kingdom is subject to control as prescribed in Section 122(4) of the 1868 Act, as amended by the Act of 1978.

Notification of importation has to be given to the Proof House within seven days and/or the arms submitted to proof within twenty eight days of arrival in this country.

These regulations do not apply to small arms imported by any person for his own personal use, while they remain his own property. Penalties for offences are similar to those for the sale of unproved arms.

This is a direct quotation from a UK Police force - You seem to be more knowledgeable on the UK laws regarding firearms than the West Midlands Police Force (for one) - But personally, I'll take their advice and published information, over your hearsay and purported information any day.

You may not, however, sell an unproofed firearm in the UK. However, there are reciprocal agreements between the UK and various other countries, Ireland included, relating to the requirements for proofing of a firearm. If the firearm complied with the proofing requirements (or otherwise) from a state with such a reciprocal agreement, then the firearm may not only be imported but could also be sold.

What can I say to this:

i was talking to a very nice gentleman at bisley who kindly explained there policy on unproofed guns not allowed to be used on there range.

A very nice gentleman at bisley told me.... Eh? What is Sam Hill is this? Who told you? What is his name? What is position at Bisley? More hearsay and unsubstantiated "facts".

Leaving aside the fact that there is more than one range in the UK:

Have you actually read the Bisley range rules? I have.
Have you actually read the Bisley Bible? I have.
Have you shot at Bisley? I have.

Where does it state that unproofed rifles may not be shot on the Bisley ranges? I can't find any mention of it anywhere myself - so please enlighten us. Thanks. I'd be delighted to stand corrected on that.

What the Bisley Range Safety Regulations do actually state is the following:

2. Firearms and Ammunition
a) All shooters are responsible for ensuring that their firearms and ammunition are safe to use. All firearms and ammunition must be made available for inspection and testing whenever required.

Furthermore, the so-called Bisley Bible also states:

Overseas competitors: Where reciprocal agreement has been reached, overseas competitors may use, in competition, target rifles which conform to their home country’s Governing Body’s rules, during their first three months in the United Kingdom, provided that they conform to the maximum weight, chamber dimensions, minimum trigger pull and sight specifications given above.

And then goes on to state:

NRA issued ammunition will conform to CIP dimensions for Win .308” and will develop a maximum average pressure under CIP test procedures of 3650 Bar. Competitors are responsible for ensuring that their rifles are safe to fire such ammunition.

So other than that, I cannot find anything anywhere in the Bisley rules which agrees with what you've posted and purportedly have been told by some unnamed unidentified nice gentleman.

How many times do you feel you have to go to your gunsmith in ireland to get a job done??

Eh? Excuse me? It was YOU who first mentioned all these chats and trips to the gunsmith at Post #49:

You have at least two maybe three visits to your gunsmiths in ireland. (all going well at that)

I don't know - One chat before the work starts, one chat at the end - and perhaps a chat during the process to see how things are going?

There is other shooters i know very well that have sent there guns to the uk successfully to be built.

Wow, you don't say?! No one's disputing that - and no one should be disputing that shooters have sent their rifles to riflesmiths in Ireland successfully too.

And is only building rifles a year or so

What has that got to do with anything? We all have to start somewhere.

Has he got product liability insurance ?

As I posted before, I don't know and you'll have to ask him yourself. I haven't asked any of the riflesmiths, here or in the UK, for a copy of their insurance policy statements TBH. Have you?

What relevant gunsmiting qualifying does he hold.?

If you knew the various qualifications held by riflesmiths in Ireland and the UK, you wouldn't need to be asking that question. However, in relation to Fergal Whites qualifications, I can help you: FW kindly answered my question about that and here is what he emailed me a short time ago:

From Fergal White by Email:

I am a qualified toolmaker/ injection mouldmaker with over 25 years in the trade. This is the highest end of the skills trades and injection mouldmaking is the highest end of the toolmaking trade.

The only one I know of with similar qualifications is Alan Warner in the USA, he has the very same background as me with in around the same amount of years.

Now that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

The other posters can take your hearsay over my facts if they wish - Again, as I said before, to each their own. We're obviously never going to have a meeting of minds on this - So let's just say we'll agree to disagree and let the other posters decide who's advice on this matter they choose agree with.

dC OUT

Cass

This is going in circles.

Thread closed .