Tesco. no comeback with unsuitable DTT TV

maxg

watty wrote: »

y
Both Minister Ryan, RTE and others that are official have stated Analogue is ceasing in q4 2012. Minister Ryan has stated this in public record in answer to TDs. It is a fact.

From what date is this statement?
The theme of this thread is still a sanyo TV bought from Tescos in 2009.
Maybe you should check post#1 again.
Btw wild guesses about consumer law without any proof help nobody.

axer

watty wrote: »

axer, don't you care at all about consumers in this country?

Yes, if you look through my posts you will see I have helped quite a number of them in the consumer forum but there is nothing I hate more when it comes to consumer rights is when people "know" and are so "sure" of their rights.

watty wrote: »

Both Minister Ryan, RTE and others that are official have stated Analogue is ceasing in q4 2012. Minister Ryan has stated this in public record in answer to TDs. It is a fact.

My understanding is this is not law either though that I believe the october 2010 launch date was put into law but the end of analogue signal is supposed to happen q4 2012 but no date has been finalised thus we do not know for sure if it will even happen then.

This means that because no date has been finalised as to when analogue will be turned off then we cannot assume for certain whether it will happen in 2012 or god knows things might completely change as time goes. We just do not know for sure. It is supposed to be then but a lot can change in the meantime.

watty wrote: »

axer you are just choosing to ignore the plain meaning of law, when Retailers are not. You are helping no-one and simply thing that if you repeat your refutation of facts that people will somehow go away and not bother looking for refunds.

Obviously if you think retailers are breaking the law by selling the tvs then you must also think they are ignoring the meaning of the law. I have already stated that people should try and get refunds from retailers but not by quoting a law that does not cover their situation. They can chance their arm if they want but if they go in guns a blazin' they had better be concious of the fact that the law is far from clear on this issue.

watty wrote: »

I have no vested interest. What's yours?

I have no vested interest other than correcting the people that seem so sure on the legal side of this issue when the law is far from clear on this.

In general I don't stand up for the consumer nor do I stand up to businesses, I stand up for reality. Just take a look at posts like this where I challenge currys regarding their statutory obligations to consumers which was in relation to a TV in this instance. but then why are you making this personal when this should not be about me but rather about facts? I cannot see a reason to get personal over this.

I wish the government had legislated on this (and for cases like this) but the fact is they haven't. I wonder why you keep posting definitives about the law when you have no proof other than your own unqualified speculation and optimism - thats what I take issue with and what I will continue to take issue with.

axer

watty wrote: »

How many people would buy them if the Shop clearly labelled them:

I would if I got a good deal. In fact there was a 400 euro 42" tv in tesco that was not saorview compatible that I was thinking of purchasing as I only use satellite anyway.

watty wrote: »

There is not an exact date set yet. But it is 100% fact that in January 2013 there will be no Analogue TV.

I will believe it when it is legislated for. It is only europe that says there needs to be an ASO by the end of 2012. I'd say Ireland would be happy enough to just have DTT fully up and running for their 98% figure of coverage by then. They could decide to leave analogue on for another year after this - we cannot be 100% sure what will happen - this is Ireland after all, we couldnt plan a snow fight in the north pole.

watty wrote: »

Currently the is no law to stop Shops selling TVs that are not Digital Compatible. But the shop is generally going to lose if the consumer can show they were misled at time of sale.

Thats far from clear in law so we will just have to wait and see what happens. In the meantime I would suggest you do not post information that it is clear in law that people are entitled to a refund since that is misleading.

STB

This thread could go on for ever and ever and ever and ever and I understand the make it a fully legal requirement. This fact alone means only one thing, retailers cannot be trusted! True of most retailers I suppose. Of course it should not be tolerated. FTA may not be everyones cup of tea, but having the basic tuners on board should be provided (and is a reasonable expectation). This is 2011. Let the customer decide what they will use the TV for. Its not an excuse to sell old tat.

The simple facts are:

1. Analogue Switch Off is the end of 2012, the final date the EU has mandated for. (referenced everywhere including Saorview Site, DCENR and in nearly every National and Local newspaper)

2. The technical requirements for Irish digital terrestrial television (DTT) were first published by the DCENR in February 2008. In December 2008 RTÉ published its Minimum Receiver Requirements. RTÉ did not add any further technical requirements beyond what was already required in the Department’s specification (ie MPEG4 and MHEG5 as minimum requirements).

3. CEDA (the electrical retailers association) members were written to so in 2008 to let them know this.

4. DTT in its current form has actually been on since August 2008.

5. We are still seeing old warehoused "MPEG2/Freeview/Digital" UK stock being sold in conjunction with MPEG4 suitable stock side by side by major UK chainstores without any proper information as to the TVs capabilities. This is misleading to the consumer who may not have time/be reluctant/not be able to absorb or get into intricate discussion about what they are buying the TV for and may believe and interpret the logo's and description as suitable for basic needs i.e. FTA reception. Bear in mind these TVs are being sold in Ireland not the UK and should be labeled as such!

Whether its legal or not, the consumers association should be the last port of call for any decent large chainstore to end up on the end of. The worst form of advertising.

Lets just give you an example of how the customer can easily have bought a suitable product or not. Take yourself out of the confusion that is a large TV showroom with loads and loads of TVs (all connected to the same Sky decoder box and showing Sky News). Forget that lets go to the Irish website, where you can peruse at your own ease. Should be easier ?

Pop Quiz
So heres 4 32" LCD Digital TVs in the €300-350. All described as:

"HD ready"
32 inch (82 cm) 16/9
Freeview

Some even make claims that "this high quality TV comes with a built-in Freeview tuner for a vast choice in TV channels and digital radio stations".

Which will work suitable for Irish Digital and Analogue reception and which will work for only Analogue TV reception despite their digital claims and only then for less than 2 years at which stage no tuners will work and the television will be effectively become a monitor.

1. SHARP LC32D12E

2. SAMSUNG LE32C450

3. LG 32LD450

4. LOGIK L32DIGB20

You still wouldn't know, would you ? Especially if you are any ordinary Joe. Well I can tell you that 2 are fully perfect (No 2 and 3) and 2 are useless (1 and 4) and ALL are in or around the same price (but remember I am posting on a technical forum).

Thats what consumers are up against.

So remember that when you make "legal" arguments for "Irish" retailers. They do not need your help believe me! They are more than capable at providing little/wrong/confusing advice whilst second guessing consumers and/or shifting incompatible stock.

The Cush

maxg wrote: »

From what date is this statement?

From March 2008

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): ...
My Department has made it clear to all stakeholders involved in the development of Digital Terrestrial Television that 2012 is the date by which switch-over from the analogue to digital terrestrial services should be achieved.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/03/12/00048.asp

STB wrote: »

The simple facts are:

1. Analogue Switch Off is the end of 2012, the final date the EU has mandated for. (referenced everywhere including Saorview Site, DCENR and in nearly every National and Local newspaper)

There is no mandate yet (ask them for a link to the mandate). Back in 2005 and again last year they recommended 1st Jan 2012.

Mandate on the way to clear the Digital Dividend spectrum of analogue TV by the end of Dec 2012. This is the closest I know of an EU ASO mandate.

Sponge Bob

axer wrote: »

Yes, if you look through my posts you will see I have helped quite a number of them in the consumer forum but there is nothing I hate more when it comes to consumer rights is when people "know" and are so "sure" of their rights.

You are helping nobody with your tiresome trolling, I see you have carefully avoided answering all the questions I put to you a few days ago while inelegantly cluttering the thread up.

Read this again, sections 41 to 46 of the linked Consumer Protection Act 2007 are what I asked you to address.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

There is no mandate yet (ask them for a link to the mandate). Back in 2005 and again last year they recommended 1st Jan 2012.

Mandate on the way to clear the Digital Dividend spectrum of analogue TV by the end of Dec 2012. This is the closest I know of an EU ASO mandate.

Back in 2005 they did indeed recommend early 2012 despite some advising it would be end of 2012 according to the league tables. Some member States not listed in that table had not indicated their plans or had not yet indicated a switch-off date (Ireland for example).

Since then we have indeed openly committed to a 2012 switch off, be it the Broadcasting Minister, the BAI the broadcaster and PSB RTE or indeed the legislation Section 139 of the Broadcasting Act 2009. All are clear and consistent published intentions. End 2012.

The 2012 EU target for switch-off is expected to be met by almost all Member States. Ireland's will be coordinated with NI.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Since then we have indeed openly committed to a 2012 switch off,

...
The 2012 EU target for switch-off is expected to be met by almost all Member States. Ireland's will be coordinated with NI.

We've committed to the end of 2012 but no official EU mandate as some official Irish sites are saying.

Post 2012 - Poland, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania.

channelsurfer2

ok got my hands on the new hard copy of the argos catologue and as watty was told every tv has now either got "will not work with irish digital tv set top box or satellite box needed" or "irish digital compatable" on its item description...that leaves tesco as the only ones stuck with their heads in the sand like ostriches....denying that saorview even exists..

axer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Read this again, sections 41 to 46 of the linked Consumer Protection Act 2007 are what I asked you to address.

Is there a remedy for a refund or exchange for the consumer in this act?

watty

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

ok got my hands on the new hard copy of the argos catologue and as watty was told every tv has now either got "will not work with irish digital tv set top box or satellite box needed" or "irish digital compatable" on its item description...that leaves tesco as the only ones stuck with their heads in the sand like ostriches....denying that saorview even exists..

is it accurate and does it agree with argos.ie website?

Sponge Bob

axer wrote: »

Is there a remedy for a refund or exchange for the consumer in this act?

Different act, now tell us how tesco is complying with the law like I told you to.

channelsurfer2

watty wrote: »

is it accurate and does it agree with argos.ie website?

its more accurate than the argos website...and seems to be spot on at least on the few models i looked at.. the website just seems to have the generic digital not available and freeview quotation.

Capt'n Midnight

70% of homes have cable or satellite

UPC are going digital, so soon people will find that they can't use the built in tuner on any TV's not connected directly to the decoder box anymore. At present you can watch Basic TV in all rooms without having to pay extra. But people know that if the worst came to the worst they would still get the Irish channels with an aerial, what they know is wrong.

If as a lot of people are, cutting back on SKY or UPC and going FTA + Terresterial this is a big issue.

To expect a device described as a TV to receive terresterial broadcasts during the warranted life time of the product is fair and resonable exepectation.

625 Line PAL has been the standard here since 1962, , and there are still people out there who don't know that it will soon be gone forever .


Do any TV shops still do the 3 years interest free credit thing - that would be interesting !


The 405 to 625 line changeover took 20 years between 1962 and 1982. Again people without the full facts might reasonably expect a similar time transition.

watty

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

its more accurate than the argos website...and seems to be spot on at least on the few models i looked at.. the website just seems to have the generic digital not available and freeview quotation.

Good.

Some possibly incompatible Tvs on web site don't have disclaimer.

HappyHarry

Axer,

I see you are still banging on the same drum but avoiding the awkward questions.

You try to cling onto legal technicalities and request proof in law, but where is your legal proof? (rhetorical question)
Your claim that as long as something worked as advertised on at the time of purchase and it doesn't matter what happens after that is absurd. As previously stated, the duration can vary depending on the reasonable exceptions of the buyer taking into account the price and nature of the goods. The EU directive does mention 2 years for electronic goods if I recall correctly, but that is beside the point.

People are not wrong to quote the SoG act or EU Directive if they feel it applies to their situation. It is up to the retailer to counter with why they feel it doesn't apply if it doesn't. If either party isn't happy then they can take it to someone else to adjudicate, that's the way the system works.

As previously stated, ultimately the judgement will be passed in the small claims or other court if it gets that far, not by Axer or HappyHarry on this forum.

Why don't you want people to fight for their rights against un-scrupulous retailers? If you only post one more reply to this thread please answer that.

How about answering the questions in my post - #88
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70190438&postcount=88

axer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Different act, now tell us how tesco is complying with the law like I told you to.

Not sure what you are trying to imply. If you read back the thread you will see that I brought up the consumer protection act first many posts ago and suggested that it might come in under that. My issue is really regarding people's rights to refunds which the likes of watty said was clear in law when it is far from clear. Claims such as that should be backed up with clear evidence in law etc or should not be made at all as it will confuse the regular consumer making them think they have legal rights that they do not have.

axer

HappyHarry wrote: »

You try to cling onto legal technicalities and request proof in law, but where is your legal proof?

I am not the one making claims that it is clear in law.

Hmmmm...
It seems quite [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/may/23/tesco-consumer-guarantee[/url] obvious [/url] to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.

axer

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmmm...
It seems quite obvious to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.

TV's that cannot pick up saorview using an in built tuner are not broken since they were never made to pick up those signals via the inbuilt tuner so those examples are apples and oranges.

axer

axer wrote: »

TV's that cannot pick up saorview using an in built tuner are not broken since they were never made to pick up those signals via the inbuilt tuner so those examples are apples and oranges.

Thats simply rubbish.
It's tuner either receives tv for more than 2 years or it doesn't.
If it doesn't the tuner isn't working.

axer

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats simply rubbish.
It's tuner either receives tv for more than 2 years or it doesn't.
If it doesn't the tuner isn't working.

just because there is no signal doesnt mean the tuner is faulty/not working.

axer

axer wrote: »

just because there is no signal doesnt mean the tuner is faulty/not working.

More nonsense from you.
A tuner that receives no signal is a tuner that has stopped working.

Do you think retailers here would get away with selling secam sets?
405 line sets?
Ntsc only sets?
You are just trolling.
Anyone can see that.

Post more codswallop in reply to this if you wish,thats your prerogative.

axer

Deleted User wrote: »

More nonsense from you.
A tuner that receives no signal is a tuner that has stopped working.

Do you think retailers here would get away with selling secam sets?
405 line sets?
Ntsc only sets?
You are just trolling.
Anyone can see that.

Post more codswallop in reply to this if you wish,thats your prerogative.

So if I bring a tv out to the middle of the atlantic ocean where there is no tv signal - that means the tv tuner has stopped working?

Or a tv in parts of Ireland where one cannot pick up RTE etc is not working? Or is it that there is just no signal to be picked up, the tv will display what it receives so it is working fine.

axer

axer wrote: »

So if I bring a tv out to the middle of the atlantic ocean where there is no tv signal - that means the tv tuner has stopped working?

Correct.
However you'd have no chance going to the small claims court with that line as any reasonable judge couldn't be persuaded that you actually expected to receive anything on it's tuner out there.
Here in Ireland,I can make a case that I was.

Any more codswallop for me?

oh I see you do... in your edit..

axer wrote: »

Or a tv in parts of Ireland where one cannot pick up RTE etc is not working? Or is it that there is just no signal to be picked up, the tv will display what it receives so it is working fine.

Again,in that case the retailer would have a case.You wouldn't.
Very tiny amount of people in that batch though caller.

axer

Deleted User wrote: »

Any more codswallop for me?

No need for that kind of attack. No point debating with people who attack like this.

You are in the opinion of anyone that I've seen on this thread and the other one posting an amount of codswallop.
I'm calling you on it.
I'm allowed refer to the posts as codswallop and have said why I believe this.

watty

page 374 of Spring/Summer 2011 Argos Catalogue

Out now in all their stores.

marclt

I don't think this conversation is going very far here lads.

So unless you have something new to contribute, stop take a breath and instead of submit, hit delete.

These stores aren't proclaiming that these products will be saorview compatible.

This is similar to the situation when Argos opened here first with their UHF only TV sets, and then they limited their selection to ones that did UHF/VHF.

I think the new range of Bush at Argos (the ones they've marked as FULL HD) should be Saorview compliant... It's hard to tell.

Consumers need to be protected, but part of that should lie with the broadcasters coming together to ensure proper information is doing the rounds. That point, we've debated also.

But all this is off topic.

watty

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmmm...
It seems quite [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/may/23/tesco-consumer-guarantee[/url] obvious [/url] to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.

Only if the shop didn't label it properly.

If the Shop labels it as Incompatible with Irish Digital TV and will stop getting an Aerial signal after 2012 they may be in the clear, just!

So Tesco currently got a problem, but Argos at page 320 start of Guide to Televisions have

Digital switchover
The Digital switchover is coming to Ireland see page 373

Actually page 373 is an Advert, but page 374 has:

When is this happening
At the moment there is no confirmed date for the old analogue signal to be switched off. All we know is that it will definitely happen before the end of 2012,
so it is worth considering your options and preparing for the digital signal during 2011

I think this is a bit weaselish. But it's clearly in the catalogue. Also EVERY TV in catalogue appears to have:
Irish digital compatible
or
Will not work with Irish Digital signals
you will require a digital set top box or
satellite source.

No confusing nonsense purely about Freeview as Tesco have!