Childbirth

upinthesky

the midwifes hospitals ext have way to much work load to be interested in your wants needs ext i dont think a birth plan is beneficial books websites tell you to make one and bring one but not once does anybody ask you for it well not in my experience anyway i think its just take it as it comes really anyone's birth plan worked for them?

Ickle Magoo

lisar816 wrote: »

anyone's birth plan worked for them?

I've heard quite a few birthing stories being exactly what the parents wanted and envisaged - but they do tend to be from countries that have excellent birthing facilities, plenty of birthing pools, home deliveries, midwife led birthing, birthing centres, doulas and so on...there seems to be a bit of a labour ward/cattle shed conveyor-belt thing going on here but I think other options are becoming more available and popular.

starlit

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

upinthesky

snuggles285 wrote: »

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

i would not advise a c section personally!

i had one on my first child and it was horrible afterwards
i had two normal births afterwards thankfully and it was much much better in my experience

Ickle Magoo

Eh, it's a complete myth that sections are the easy option - in the majority of cases, the recovery is much longer and harder - and as for stitches; post-section there are seven layers that need stitched together and it can sever nerves leaving your belly numb. I'd take vaginal delivery over section any day of the week - for pain, stitching and recovery time. :cool:

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've heard quite a few birthing stories being exactly what the parents wanted and envisaged - but they do tend to be from countries that have excellent birthing facilities, plenty of birthing pools, home deliveries, midwife led birthing, birthing centres, doulas and so on...there seems to be a bit of a labour ward/cattle shed conveyor-belt thing going on here but I think other options are becoming more available and popular.

NYC has all of those things. There is even one particular hospital which has GORGEOUS facilities and also for some reason a lot of women from the third world [I think it ties into it being a public hospital where the government covers it] and they are more free with letting the women crouch and squat or whatever, but even with that those beautiful facilities dont get used because of litigation fears and they get rushed down to the labour ward. In fact when I visited this facility when I was pregnant it was empty, not one woman was in it.

They also dont tell you about the 'cascade effect'. That is once one intervention is done, chances are there will be more to follow, so they balloon your cervix and then low and behold you are down in surgery and then you are on a catheter for kidney failure and then you are on amorphine drip and then you are surrounded by a coven of lactation consultants and then your baby is in the jaundice machine and getting the **** slapped out of him because he didnt get to scream the fluids out of his lungs during a normal labour. Bunch of bastards. I will NEVER listen to an OB again. [rant over... had to get it out my system.]

Acoshla

snuggles285 wrote: »

Yes women are suppose to have a better tolerance of pain than men so explains why women have been created to have babies. When that time comes I say if I do so naturally I'll have as much drugs to deal with the pain of childbirth chances I will be too lazy and not put with the pain and just go for a c section I can imagine the pain will be bad afterwards but at least I be less likely to end up with bad stitching.

See that's the attitude that has made people believe C-sections are the easy way out (pardon the pun). It's MAJOR SURGERY, in what other area of your body would you choose major surgery over something that your body is able to do itself (barring emergencies)? Your wound can get infected, you can't lift anything for ages, you have an impressive scar to show for it, and you would prefer these option just to "too lazy"?

pickarooney

seenitall wrote: »

My complaint is not that I "wasn't told"; it is that I was duped. But what is the good of complaining anyway, when this happens in all the public hospitals in Ireland on a daily basis to hundreds of women.

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you not be aware of something that "happens on a daily basis to hundreds of women"?

dearg lady

I have to say, I'm stunned and shocked and quite scared having read all of this!! I literally had no idea things were so bad in maternity hospitals. It does seem harsh but treat someone in such a vulnerable situation like this.
I sure hope there are better options available when I get around to having kiddies...

metrovelvet

dearg lady wrote: »

I have to say, I'm stunned and shocked and quite scared having read all of this!! I literally had no idea things were so bad in maternity hospitals. It does seem harsh but treat someone in such a vulnerable situation like this.
I sure hope there are better options available when I get around to having kiddies...

There wont be. Its litigation driven. Unless you have a homebirth with a midwife, that is the only way out of it. That is if they are still legal by the time you have kids.

That, or have your kids born in the East or Africa. At this point I think Id rather give birth in an African plain if I could do it again.

dearg lady

metrovelvet wrote: »

There wont be. Its litigation driven. Unless you have a homebirth with a midwife, that is the only way out of it. That is if they are still legal by the time you have kids.

That, or have your kids born in the East or Africa. At this point I think Id rather give birth in an African plain if I could do it again.

Just out of interest, do you know how things are with regard to home births, would they try to talk someone out of it? Are there particular circumstances where it's not allowed?

When you say it's litigation driven, do you mean they don't want to get sued?

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you not be aware of something that "happens on a daily basis to hundreds of women"?

No, no contradiction. I am aware of this wide-ranging problem now, of course. Before going through the whole experience I was too busy living a child-free and all-things-baby-unrelated existence to be bothered to learn about these things.

Much the same as yourself, it would seem.

pickarooney

seenitall wrote: »

No, no contradiction. I am aware of this wide-ranging problem now, of course. Before going through the whole experience I was too busy living a child-free and all-things-baby-unrelated existence to be bothered to learn about these things.

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

Yes. My experience of delivery is my fault for being naive and putting good faith in my local hospital and its staff, and certainly not the medical professionals' fault for deceiving women and treating them as brainless nincompoops.

Still, you needn't worry. Like metrovelvet, if there is a next time, it will be a different story. Nothing like experience to ensure it.

Men? WTF? Since when are men responsible for how the female anatomy works?
The mother's body gets messed up because it's forcing a small person out a hole that's usually only a couple of centimetres wide.
I'd also like to point out that females of other species suffer some sort of damage during the birthing process. So are men to be blamed for that as well? The entire notion is absurd.
Yes, the body does suffer some shocking damage sometimes. But for the most part what happens is minimal and heals up. Modern medicine has done nothing but make the whole process much safer and easier for women.

Ickle Magoo

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I made in the beginning. Nine months plus of research time gone to waste.

Not necessarily - we spent a lot of time, effort and not inconsiderable cost locating and procuring the services of an obstetrician who claimed to be a proponent of vbac and who pooh-poohed our concerns regarding obs making such claims only to renegade at a later date - and then from 36 wks onwards got progressively colder feet despite no issues having presented themselves. I wasn't taking no for an answer and ignored the emotive protestations which I felt were based on his convenience rather than mine but it's easy to see how a first time mother or less determined and vocal woman would and are brow-beaten into making choices they are not particularly enamoured with - that is hardly the fault of the women in question. By their very nature obs are chosen for their expertise and I think it's obvious from reading parental websites, forums and books that some abuse that privileged position - whether to suit their own professional/private timetable or out of fear of litigation, if not a mixture of both.

It's naive in the extreme - not to mention patronising - to suggest that the mere presence of a birth plan and some research will somehow magically translate into a utopian controlled delivery in which parental choices are not coerced nor subjected to pressure by medical staff - certainly not on these shores, anyway.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote: »

Men? WTF? Since when are men responsible for how the female anatomy works?
The mother's body gets messed up because it's forcing a small person out a hole that's usually only a couple of centimetres wide.
I'd also like to point out that females of other species suffer some sort of damage during the birthing process. So are men to be blamed for that as well? The entire notion is absurd.
Yes, the body does suffer some shocking damage sometimes. But for the most part what happens is minimal and heals up. Modern medicine has done nothing but make the whole process much safer and easier for women.

I dont know if people mean men as in all men, but that obstetrics is designed by men, and for men [the doctors] and not for the women giving birth. Ok so there are more women OBs now, but the whole model has been designed to suit doctors who historically have been mostly men and the women now working in that system are also conforming to a western male model.

starlit

lisar816 wrote: »

i would not advise a c section personally!

i had one on my first child and it was horrible afterwards
i had two normal births afterwards thankfully and it was much much better in my experience

Spadina wrote: »

See that's the attitude that has made people believe C-sections are the easy way out (pardon the pun). It's MAJOR SURGERY, in what other area of your body would you choose major surgery over something that your body is able to do itself (barring emergencies)? Your wound can get infected, you can't lift anything for ages, you have an impressive scar to show for it, and you would prefer these option just to "too lazy"?

Ya I can understand that the recovery time and stitching can be a factor in both cases. The thing is what if you have an emergency or a severe tear a c section would be the only option. I know of someone who just had the gas and some drug can't remember the name of it but it was just a very strong pain killer and that was it, it was a tough birth for her but she recovered much quicker unlike someone else who got serious damage after having pushed the baby in one go and if she were to get pregnant again a c section would be her only option due to the severe degree of tearing in her first childbirth. She had so many drugs she didn't know what was happening and the contractions were too fast for the baby to cope with it. I know of someone whose first childbirth was a c section due to emergency and had the following two births naturally and was fine afterwards. I think bone structure has a part to play too as to how long the labours might last not sure if that is true or not. Any one else I know had a straight forward labour without any complications.

CK2010

metrovelvet wrote: »

How can you know? There are so many variables and possibilities?

There are several NYC hospitals with BEAUTIFUL birthing rooms, jacuzzis in them, birthing pools, king sized beds for mom and dad and beautiful bassinettes and anything you could possibly want. And you know what? They hardly get used, because the first sign of any little thing that deviates from THEIR protocols of a normal birth and you are rushed downstairs into the normal labour ward.

They also only keep you half informed. When they suggest an induction, they dont tell you how tricky they are and how likely you will end up with a section, they just tell you 'if you don't do it the baby will choke and die on the mecunium' and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you and pressure you.

If you have been awake for 25 hours and are drugged and get sick or any number of possibilities, how clear headed are you going to be when you have three midwives and two surgeons staring at you telling you 'if you dont do this the baby will be x, the baby will be Y, you will be like _____________ for the rest of your life.'

100% agree with you here. i dont remember them even telling me anything let alone asking me.

29 hours of very distressing labour (baby hadnt 'dropped/engaged' yet) and then baby went into distress and when my waters were finally broken the midwives got me in a panic by them being in a panic about the meconium passing already.
oh and i was 17 at the time so was already a bit panicked about the whole thing, and i had also had the pleasure of hearing a woman in the bed beside me earlier give birth naturally-cursing and begging for an epidural (the rest of the ward was 'evacuated' to the hall as it was too traumatic for them to hear this however as i was in the bed on the further side of this woman they didnt notice me!! )


straight afterwards i was bombarded with degrading comments about how a good mum tries to breastfeed and i should 'at least try', i was so distraught from the labour that my boyfriend had to stand up for me and tell them that they know and i know that ive already decided whats best on the issue. if he wasnt there i swear they would have bullied me into it.

then they had no bed for me so i was left in a weelchair in a busy hall for an hour and a half with numb legs and my baby left beside me in those clear cots screaming her lungs out cause i couldnt stand up to get her and nobody would pass her to me. (my bf left as they had told him id be put into a ward so he went to grab some bits for baby) they had told me to keep an eye on her breathing because she had passed the meconium before she was born, so i was getting panicked that i wasnt able to check on her.

missed lunch cause of this. hadnt eaten for over 29 hours and had done what i consider alot of hard work!! (admittedly they cant time when my child was born but they couldve made sure someone brought something over to me in the hall.)

then i was put on a public ward (i went semi private) and was not given dinner even though i had been asked what i wanted and they went round to everyone else. again,my bf went and asked someone where my food was and he was told 'oh she must have "missed out" :eek: (wtf?! its dinner not a go on a ferris wheel or something!), sorry, ask one of the dinnerladies to sort you out'- she brought back a slice of bread and a leaf of lettuce. 29 hours of labour, not able to eat, throwing up and i get a slice of bread to do me the night with a new baby! i was not a happy bunny!

next day i was asked how i was, given a once over, baby finally got a bath and we were told we need to leave cause they need the bed. (a bed i shouldnt have even been in!)

this is just a big rant now tbh! but my point originally was that they dont listen to what mother wants- we're not naiive enough to believe that the birth will go exactly how we'd like it (if it did it'd be pain free and very quick!).

also on the whole 'mans fault' aspect,i dont blame men for my bad experience but i do blame the set up of the hospital as a whole and the lack of communication between staff. i know the staff are all really busy and that they cant pander to new mothers but at the end of the day thats what they are-new mothers- and the staff should aim to make the transition to such as comfortable an experience as possible. im sure many women have left hospital feeling as utterly drained and let down as i did. and tbh im not surprised that so many mothers dont feel supported enough when their first experience of motherhood is so traumatic, and degrading and patronising in many cases. how on earth can woman suffering from PND seek support from these people when they really dont seem to care at all???

also, i went to all the parenting classes, read the books, did the research, knew what was happening each week during the pregnancy and what would happen during and after labour and i still found it all scary!

big long rant sorry! :D

The Sweeper

The 'pile em high, churn em out' ethos of major maternity hospitals is sad. If I were to give birth tomorrow (god help me - or a child of mine - I have no plans) it would be in the hospital I work in - a 30-bed hospital with no intensive care unit, but where the midwife attending me will often be all mine on my own - and if I'm lucky I might even have two or three midwives PLUS an obstetrician with nobody else giving birth in the hospital except me. And you don't even have to go private to get it. (You just have to move to the back arse of Australia. )

Feeona

CK2010 wrote: »

)


straight afterwards i was bombarded with degrading comments about how a good mum tries to breastfeed and i should 'at least try', i was so distraught from the labour that my boyfriend had to stand up for me and tell them that they know and i know that ive already decided whats best on the issue. if he wasnt there i swear they would have bullied me into it.

I don't understand why it's considered a good idea to stress out a new mother (who's already stressed and worried about her new role) by pushing breast feeding. How can that be good for the baby?

Talk about trying to make you feel like a failure!

CK2010

Feeona wrote: »

I don't understand why it's considered a good idea to stress out a new mother (who's already stressed and worried about her new role) by pushing breast feeding. How can that be good for the baby?

Talk about trying to make you feel like a failure!

exactly what my boyfriend said, except not as politely!

i think they expect new mothers to just be so overwhelmed that they'll try it once labour is over and done with. like that they'll be so emotional that they'll want to do anything to 'bond' with baby. which i think is really wrong. a mother should make an informed and rational decision about it because it needs to be done right and with a degree of confidence for it to work for them both. they discussed it with me every visit and even made me sign a form to say they told me the pros of BF!

the fact i hadnt eaten a proper meal for nine months due to chronic sickness and was suffering from severe anaemia, and the fact that i wouldnt have time to express milk while attending college didnt matter to them.
not that a mother even needs to give a reason for choosing not to BF. its an issue that really bugs me-i have alot of respect for mothers who do breastfeed but i dont think any mother should be made feel inadequate (especially by doctors/midwives) if she chooses not to. regardless of why she chooses not to.

i also think that if a mother has chosen not to BF and is then "persuaded" by medical staff to try then shes not going to be entirely comfortable in doing so and it will more than likely lead to difficulties in feeding for both mother and baby which is definitely not better for baby and stresses mum out further which just adds to any insecurities/worries/feelings of inadequacy she already has.

all just my opinion of course, but its something that drivesme mad!

sorry- you've set me off on yet another rant! :P i have many bottled up!

How Strange

CK2010 that's despicable. I'm almost due my first and I'm determined to bf because I believe it's the best thing for my baby. However it's every mothers choice to bf or bottle feed. Also I don't see the advantages of forcing bf-ing on a new mum who hasn't prepared herself for it previously. It may be natural but by all accounts it can be very tough at the beginning so you really have to be determined to stick with it no matter what. Forcing it on mums and making them feel inferior for 'not giving it a go' is ridiculous and completely counter productive in terms of promoting bf-ing.

Being a new mum is a frightening enough experience (I'm terrified already and I'm waiting on my new arrival) so what we need is support not coercion from the hospital staff.

Ickle Magoo

Could we steer this discussion back into the relevant waters please and away from the always emotive breast Vs bottle debate please.

Many thanks. :cool:

CK2010

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Could we steer this discussion back into the relevant waters please and away from the always emotive breast Vs bottle debate please.

Many thanks. :cool:

sorry, wasnt my intention, was more about the issue of medical staff trying to pressure mothers into what they want as opposed to whats truely best for mother and baby (which most mothers know themselves, regardless of what medical staff say)- BF just seems to be the issue where this becomes most evident!

however, back on topic, another example of this was when the nurse was admiring my daughter in the cot and she said 'u need to keep her hands under the blanket cause babies like to be swaddled, she wont like her arms being left in the cold like that' and i told her no my daughter likes her hands out of the blanket and she refused to accept this and swaddled her- what do you know, she started screaming the place down and then stopped the minute her hands were free! :rolleyes:

this was also something her grandmother never accepted either,always covered her up to her neck!