Ideas to improve the Irish economy

senordingdong

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Do you mean the property market and construction sites? :rolleyes:

I think he means something abit more concrete (excuse the pun)

I mean what are these contractors to do when their projects are finished?

ilovesleep

Execution for politicians especially FF and ratface Ahern, developers and bankers. And for any one else passing their dodgy business deals onto other human beings.

galwayrush

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Do you mean the property market and construction sites? :rolleyes:

Not exactly, infrastructure though would be an investment for the future.

Dr_Phil

galwayrush wrote: »

Not exactly, infrastructure though would be an investment for the future.

Ok, ok, I'm only messing Just a bit bitter morning, ya know..

the_syco

Apart from a full military coup with the new el Presidento shoving these new laws out, I can't see them happening: the politician would be turning their backs on "friends" who helped them into office.

anorange

We could also push the retirement age back a few years.

anorange

How about legalising cannabis?

Dr_Phil wrote: »

... and heroin, cocaine, organised prostitution, peadophilia... There is a lot of potential around if we are talking about "monaay"... :rolleyes:

Somehow, I don't think you can compare legalising cannabis with legalising paedophilia.

Bill2673

Lumen wrote: »

I picked an obvious example because it's clearer. I was hoping that imagination would fill in the blanks.

A more specific example: welfare and minimum wage. These are interdependent for obvious reasons. People (employed and unemployed) buy stuff. Stuff is sold by people. If people are expensive, stuff is expensive. If you make people cheaper, stuff becomes cheaper, but the adjustment takes a long time because it has to work it's way through a bunch of supply chain and employment cycles. If you change wages much faster than prices can adjust, people can't afford stuff, employment increases, businesses go to the wall and productive capacity is lost.

etc.

If you make people cheaper then our economy becomes more competitive and we have a better chance of generating economic growth again (which boosts employment).

I take your point on the implications of a quick adjustment.....all I am saying is.....we either do this over four years, and borrow €85bn plus interest, or we can do it straight away, and not borrow €85bn.....

why do the benefits of adjusting over 4 years rather than immediately warrant borrowing €85bn? We're going to take the hit anyway.....we all know its coming....so our spending patterns that you refer to are adjusting already anyway.

Lumen

Bill2673 wrote: »

If you make people cheaper then our economy becomes more competitive and we have a better chance of generating economic growth again (which boosts employment).

I take your point on the implications of a quick adjustment.....all I am saying is.....we either do this over four years, and borrow €85bn plus interest, or we can do it straight away, and not borrow €85bn.....

why do the benefits of adjusting over 4 years rather than immediately warrant borrowing €85bn? We're going to take the hit anyway.....we all know its coming....so our spending patterns that you refer to are adjusting already anyway.

The economic plan is based on false assumptions of future growth. Take away the growth and the maths fails completely. I don't think it's possible to balance the books, now or in the future, without a proper default and/or Euro exit.

I'm guessing that the government is just buying time, secretly hoping that Spain or Portugal fail first, before jumping on whatever bandwagon comes along whilst blaming "external factors".

El Siglo

Take two billion from the IMF bailout, set up a gas extraction company, kick Shell out of Corrib, start drilling and refining the gas there, make €420 billion from natural gas sales to UK and EU, pay off the IMF loan, merge and nationalise AIB and BOI, pay off peoples' personal debts, amend constitution to include 'white collar' crime.

Economy fixed.

Ninjedi

(1) Just legalise it already - anyone who thinks weed isn't rife throughout Irish society already is naive. Why not take the money off the crimelords and put it into the public domain. The reasons for its illegality are both unclear and hypocritical given the massive alcohol problem this country has. Could be an amazing source of revenue through taxes, oh go on then and a levy (not a tax!) or two as well. I'm sure people would rather pay a bit more for consistently higher quality stuff than be constantly ripped off by dealers.

(2) Kill the government! Ahem, stop the government from being able to decide their own working hours, holidays, rates of pay, pensions etc. Tear down their pay and benefits structure, especially this ridiculous "I get to keep my pension package no matter what I do" thing and make it a reasonable income so that people in politics are actually in it for a reason other than to bleed the tax coffers dry. Possibly introduce a law that states that anyone who actually wants to be a politician is slowly and deliciously tortured to death isn't ever allowed to. Election candidates would be selected at random from each constituencies population and receive a period of education/training before a running period of two weeks (note that these training courses would create jobs). A permanent staff of unaffiliated legal and secretarial types (more jobs!) would ease each newly elected official into their office.

(3) Seriously, can't we just storm the Dail, lock them all in and burn the ****er down? Seeing as this minimum wage cut has gone ahead, yes we know we have one of the highest in Europe well guess what you dickheads we also have one of the highest costs of living, how about forcing retail and service to drop their goddam prices so that some of the money they're saving makes it to the average person.

(4) I mean, come on, they're all too old and unfit to fight their way out! The only reason any of them even pretend to play golf is for the expenses writeoff. Sack every useless lazy bastard that uses the council as a place to avoid the real working world. Complete public works and roads to an actual decent standard (it can't be that hard, look at the North) so that they don't need to be redone every year after a bit of bad weather. It'll take a while but it's worth it, this cowboy mentality that pervades Irish society has to end somewhere. Also, anyone on public money should NEVER have nothing to do. Disgusted over the bad weather that the councilmen sat around because there was no grit left instead of getting out there with shovels and making things safer for the public that pay their wages.

(5) It'd be funny to watch them fighting each other to get out as they started burning don't you think? Any instance of proven corruption with regard to public office or finances is met with immediate, inescapable and harsh punishment.

(6) I bet you that Harney one would just suck the innards out of a few of the others and then drape herselves in their skins to protect herself from the fire. Jesus I nearly forgot - take all the luxury out of Mountjoy! I don't have ****ing Sky why the hell should they get it on my money!? It's PRISON people it's not meant to be nice, adequate standard of living my arse hole, they gave up those rights when they broke the law as far as I'm concerned. It should be broth, bread and water, daily searches of people and rooms, the most basic forms of entertainment and nothing more. Prison should not be fun, it should not be tolerable, it should not be somewhere you EVER want to go back to again never mind a place where crooks go voluntarily taking the hit for "the big man" and having it cushty on the inside then a big reward waiting for them when they get out. Anyone that goes to prison on charges like gangs, guns, heroin etc should be considered to have waived their future rights to financial privacy and have all their accounts constantly under scrutiny (hey look, more jobs!) to keep them clean and hopefully reveal any funny goings on.

(7) It's ok though, we could just throw a few steaks back into the flames, as soon as she got the smell she'd be after them. Someone already mentioned the claim culture - keep those laws in place but make it completely ok for judge or jury, after an initial hearing or examination, to throw the whole thing out of court without possibility of appeal. We can all spot a chancer, how come our judges can't seem to do the same and act upon it?

(8) Once she's blocked up the exit that's them all fecked then, there'll be no moving that lump once all the fat starts bubbling out, oh god imagine the smell, as horrible as it would be you could probably bottle and sell it to the women of this country as perfume after the things she has done to them. This may sound silly compared to the rest but has anyone ever tried to find tax forms, info, reliefs and benefits etc on the government websites? Make it easy (not easier - easy!) for the average citizen to find and use this stuff, they'll have a bit more in their pockets, general stimulus people spending blah blah blah.

I sort of digressed into helping people out as opposed to stimulating the economy but the two aren't so far apart in my mind.


tl;dr I'm not a happy man! Make me your overlord and I'll share that sentiment with the people I don't like.

Bill2673

Lumen wrote: »

The economic plan is based on false assumptions of future growth. Take away the growth and the maths fails completely. I don't think it's possible to balance the books, now or in the future, without a proper default and/or Euro exit.

I'm guessing that the government is just buying time, secretly hoping that Spain or Portugal fail first, before jumping on whatever bandwagon comes along whilst blaming "external factors".

You may well be right regarding the governments intentions (though bear in mindn the current government won't be around in four months) and you may well be right regarding the growth prospects.....all i'm asking is, why are we borrowing this money? Why isn't there a national debate about it? Assuming we don't default, which at the moment is the assumption, then the interest payments will be crippling (not because the EU is shafting us but because we are borrowing such a large amount).

Bill2673

anorange wrote: »

Somehow, I don't think you can compare legalising cannabis with legalising paedophilia.

well ya posted in after hours....and then you said you didn't want just another boring economic debate......

dr ro

El Siglo wrote: »

Take two billion from the IMF bailout, set up a gas extraction company, kick Shell out of Corrib, start drilling and refining the gas there, make €420 billion from natural gas sales to UK and EU, pay off the IMF loan, merge and nationalise AIB and BOI, pay off peoples' personal debts, amend constitution to include 'white collar' crime.

Economy fixed.

Brilliant.
Also, we need to do something like what finland did to get out of their recession i.e. develop nokia. We need an actual centre of excellence for some product or industry. At least we'd have one then. Mcwilliams' suggestion of giving all mortgage holders a 2 year holiday would kick start spending. And give the economy a chance to reset itself. We are too expensive to do business with. Minimum wage and welfare is too high, so is average industrial wage. It's closer to what it should be but still needs to come down. Cost of living will come down.people need to lose the greed. Gov't needs to address the mortgage situation with the banks before eu interest rates rise or our problems are only beginning.

amacca

Ninjedi wrote: »

(3) Seriously, can't we just storm the Dail, lock them all in and burn the ****er down? Seeing as this minimum wage cut has gone ahead, yes we know we have one of the highest in Europe well guess what you dickheads we also have one of the highest costs of living, how about forcing retail and service to drop their goddam prices so that some of the money they're saving makes it to the average person.

(4) I mean, come on, they're all too old and unfit to fight their way out! The only reason any of them even pretend to play golf is for the expenses writeoff. Sack every useless lazy bastard that uses the council as a place to avoid the real working world. Complete public works and roads to an actual decent standard (it can't be that hard, look at the North) so that they don't need to be redone every year after a bit of bad weather. It'll take a while but it's worth it, this cowboy mentality that pervades Irish society has to end somewhere. Also, anyone on public money should NEVER have nothing to do. Disgusted over the bad weather that the councilmen sat around because there was no grit left instead of getting out there with shovels and making things safer for the public that pay their wages.

(5) It'd be funny to watch them fighting each other to get out as they started burning don't you think? Any instance of proven corruption with regard to public office or finances is met with immediate, inescapable and harsh punishment.

(6) I bet you that Harney one would just suck the innards out of a few of the others and then drape herselves in their skins to protect herself from the fire. Jesus I nearly forgot - take all the luxury out of Mountjoy! I don't have ****ing Sky why the hell should they get it on my money!? It's PRISON people it's not meant to be nice, adequate standard of living my arse hole, they gave up those rights when they broke the law as far as I'm concerned. It should be broth, bread and water, daily searches of people and rooms, the most basic forms of entertainment and nothing more. Prison should not be fun, it should not be tolerable, it should not be somewhere you EVER want to go back to again never mind a place where crooks go voluntarily taking the hit for "the big man" and having it cushty on the inside then a big reward waiting for them when they get out. Anyone that goes to prison on charges like gangs, guns, heroin etc should be considered to have waived their future rights to financial privacy and have all their accounts constantly under scrutiny (hey look, more jobs!) to keep them clean and hopefully reveal any funny goings on.

(7) It's ok though, we could just throw a few steaks back into the flames, as soon as she got the smell she'd be after them. Someone already mentioned the claim culture - keep those laws in place but make it completely ok for judge or jury, after an initial hearing or examination, to throw the whole thing out of court without possibility of appeal. We can all spot a chancer, how come our judges can't seem to do the same and act upon it?


tl;dr I'm not a happy man! Make me your overlord and I'll share that sentiment with the people I don't like.

While I don't agree with absolutely everything you say...

I must admit....I'm impressed....I like the cut of your jib young man.

especially the bits about actually punishing crime properly.

Lumen

Bill2673 wrote: »

You may well be right regarding the governments intentions (though bear in mindn the current government won't be around in four months) and you may well be right regarding the growth prospects.....all i'm asking is, why are we borrowing this money? Why isn't there a national debate about it? Assuming we don't default, which at the moment is the assumption, then the interest payments will be crippling (not because the EU is shafting us but because we are borrowing such a large amount).

I assume by "why are we borrowing this money" you mean "why can we not balance the books completely now"?

An Bord Snip only found €5.3bn of potential savings. What's the difference between that and what the govt has actually planned? A couple of billion a year?

You'd have to find many multiples of those ABS savings. I just don't see that it's possible without killing essential services like schools and hospitals. Are we going to start having homeless construction workers home-schooling our kids?

The absurd bank guarantee sealed our fate. Whilst we're waiting around for the proper end-game to happen, we may as well make reasonable but not utterly destructive savings where possible such that economy v2.0 starts out a bit more viable.

Ninjedi

Depending on when you catch me I might not even agree with everything I say

I do believe that for closure (that's for closure, not foreclosure, don't panic!) and for the Irish people to look ahead with actual optimism, the chancer/cowboy culture has to stop - on all levels of society - and the only way to do that is to make the penalties for getting caught so tight (both in terms of sentencing and inescapability on technicalities) and the methods of punishment (real prisons, fines that actually hurt, the lifelong financial audit that I mentioned already) that very few, if any, are willing to risk it.

I'm talking everyone, from the guy that trips on the footpath and claims even though he doesn't hurt himself (you hear me Lifford, YOU HEAR ME!? ) to those bastards in the Dail who seem to believe they're above the laws they inflict on everyone except themselves and their cronies.

p.s. I don't like politicians...you know, in case you didn't guess. The next FF supporter to say "It's time to forget the past and move on" to me in person is going to regret it! Anyone else getting that **** from the few people that will actually admit to supporting them now?

PCPhoto

these kind of threads come about every now and again.... the answer is simple.

Blow the damn country up .... we're all fukked !

Seriously though reform and accountability are needed:

Need to change every system to get rid of the waste:

Legal System
Health System
Poitical System
Roads (rules of the road, speeds, road markings, parking .... assess and then when the rules are fixed - ENFORCEMENT - and not just at Christmas ...every day)


Totally agree with the prison comment above - if someone does not behave in a civil manner and respect the rules of society - they do not deserve human rights - prison should be a punishment not a holiday camp....and no more of these do-gooders fighting and appealing decisions..... decision of trial judge/jury is final - unless new evidence is found.

- Justice System - start a system where repeat criminals get minimum sentencing - meaning if you have 10 previous convictions you start off your next crime will get you minimum X amount of years, if you do the same crime (ie. a series of robberies ...NO CONCURRENT SENTENCING - and each sentence the mandatory minimum of the previous sentence)

- Roads .... Enforce traffic laws, stop people parking illegally, running red lights, parking in loading/disabled bays ..... illegally parked cars should be towed and not simply clamped - they are causing an obstruction....

- no exceptions for Taxi's, Delivery vehicles, etc etc ... if emergency service vehicles are caught abusing their "powers" .... ie. using sirens to get past traffic on the way to the shops for lunch - immediately punished - docked a weeks wages, Emergency service vehicles need to be fitted with a monitor to track if/when it is used....its not difficult.

General Road users - EVERY car is fitted with a Tachograph, the owner/driver of the car is responsible for the tachograph - if it is tampered with the owner/driver can be jailed, this will ensure ALL insurance companies will drop insurance as policies will make sure that if the driver is over the speed limit they are responsible for any liabilities (of course this is after the roads speeds are up to date)

Retest road users - for those that work on the roads - random tests and introduce a report and reward system actually this system could also be brought into criminal side of things.

REPORT and REWARD - if someone reports a car breaking a red light at X junction at X time...or dangerous driving etc etc ... the person reporting would get a percentage of any fine imposed - if the person was caught and convicted.
FOR Driving - introduce a system for speeding where those that are under the limit their registration plates are recorded and put into a database and random plates are chosen and the owner/driver receives a payment for driving safely.... a person who is over the limit has his/her licence plate recorded and fined instantly and is exempt from winning the speeding "lottery" for 2 weeks.

POLITICAL SYSTEM - Jaysus where do we start here .... throw the whole lot out - anyone who is related to a current politician or any personal link to politicians at the moment should be banned for 10years from political life - ....... anyone who "donated" money to politicians should have their accounts trawled and every transaction queried....anyone who has had a revenue audit will understand this one.

In an ideal world "new" politicians would be business leaders - but its unlikely to happen but any HEAD of a Department must have some qualification in the department they are in charge of.
Politicians should not be entitled to expenses - they should get a flat fee - if they cant afford to pay to get to work for approx €100,000 ...dont bother applying for the job.

Politicians should not be allowed to have a job held in their name for when they finish their political career - if you leave a job to become a politician - they you do not deserve a pension or any other benefits from the other career....infact .... ministerial benefits need to be removed.

Bonus for politicians who have served for over 25 years (assuming they have been elected several times means the public must have faith in them and they must be doing a good job)

ANY Politician found guilty of a criminal offence - immediately removed from office and stripped of pension and banned from political life for 10years.


Meh .... this is too long for people in After hours to read ..... I stand by my opening statement !!!

Zebra3

It's amazing how gullible some people are. :rolleyes:

Some right-wing rich bast@rds propose cutting the minimum wage and social welfare and every thick jumps on the bandwagon.

I've better ideas.

Bring in a reasonable maximum wage limit and cut rich people's welfare. Cut the pensions and percs for past and present politicans and cut all the tax saving scams that rich people get through the likes of their pensions.

Bill2673

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's amazing how gullible some people are. :rolleyes:

Some right-wing rich bast@rds propose cutting the minimum wage and social welfare and every thick jumps on the bandwagon.

I've better ideas.

Bring in a reasonable maximum wage limit and cut rich people's welfare. Cut the pensions and percs for past and present politicans and cut all the tax saving scams that rich people get through the likes of their pensions.

right wing rich bast#rd eh? I wish.

So making the country more competitive by cutting what is still one of the highest minimum wages in Europe won't help the economy......and forcing whatever wealthy people we have left out of the country will help the economy....these are the much vilified people who, oh well they pay 80% of our tax revenue, but don't let that distract your from the fact that they are bast#rds...

yeah that'll work....but sure what do I know, I'm just a bast#ard (not rich though).


Here's one for you. Our social welfare is higher than portugals minimum wage. People get more on the dole here than than they do in our EU neighbour for working at minimum wage....in fact its about 10% higher. So why should industry move here exactly, and not to portugal. You want to create jobs? In that environment?

Lumen

Zebra3 wrote: »

Some right-wing rich bast@rds propose cutting the minimum wage and social welfare and every thick jumps on the bandwagon.

I've better ideas.

Bring in a reasonable maximum wage limit and cut rich people's welfare. Cut the pensions and percs for past and present politicans and cut all the tax saving scams that rich people get through the likes of their pensions.

In Communist Russia economics learns you!

btw, tax relief on pension contributions is designed to avoid people paying income tax twice over on the same money. That's not a scam.

jackiebaron

Simple. Should not have accepted this bailout loan and should have let the banks fail like Iceland did. They're doing considerably much better now than they were two years ago and are doing much better then Ireland.

Rule of thumb for the Irish economy in future:

Whatever the Taoiseach/Finance Minister recommends.......do the fcuking opposite.

jackiebaron

Bill2673 wrote: »

right wing rich bast#rd eh? I wish.

So making the country more competitive by cutting what is still one of the highest minimum wages in Europe won't help the economy......and forcing whatever wealthy people we have left out of the country will help the economy....these are the much vilified people who, oh well they pay 80% of our tax revenue, but don't let that distract your from the fact that they are bast#rds...

yeah that'll work....but sure what do I know, I'm just a bast#ard (not rich though).


Here's one for you. Our social welfare is higher than portugals minimum wage. People get more on the dole here than than they do in our EU neighbour for working at minimum wage....in fact its about 10% higher. So why should industry move here exactly, and not to portugal. You want to create jobs? In that environment?

Where do you get your stat for 80% of our tax revenue being paid by the rich. What percentage of the workforce exactly pays this portion.

As for your portugal comparison. The term Apples/Oranges springs to mind. It's not what you are paid at the end of the day that matters....it's what you can save or what you have to spend.

Sure, our dole per week probably outstrips the average monthly salary in Thailand. No comparison.

Bill2673

jackiebaron wrote: »

Where do you get your stat for 80% of our tax revenue being paid by the rich. What percentage of the workforce exactly pays this portion.

As for your portugal comparison. The term Apples/Oranges springs to mind. It's not what you are paid at the end of the day that matters....it's what you can save or what you have to spend.

Sure, our dole per week probably outstrips the average monthly salary in Thailand. No comparison.

Why is it apples and oranges. We are a small open economy. We export mainly to the UK and the EU. Foreign multinationals are based here so that they can export into the EU.

If we are very expensive relative to other EU countries then our exports are more expensive and business won't invest here.

Apples and oranges....its all very well to roll that sort of cliche out. You're saying we 'have to spend' .....do we really? even if it means borrowing €85bn to spend it? How do you propose that we pay that back, and continue to spend.....

removing politicians pensions won;t cover that black hole.

cherryghost

I got an email this morning from a Nigerian prince offering a generous sum of money in 3 simple steps.

Forwarded it onto Brian Lenihan. Hopefully he takes the idea on board

Bill2673

cherryghost wrote: »

I got an email this morning from a Nigerian prince offering a generous sum of money in 3 simple steps.

Forwarded it onto Brian Lenihan. Hopefully he takes the idea on board

I sent my cash to this guy and it didn't work out well.......I don't think he's bona fide.

(but at least he'd do a better job that an irish politician ....boom boom wha wha wha!!)

anorange

cherryghost wrote: »

I got an email this morning from a Nigerian prince offering a generous sum of money in 3 simple steps.

Forwarded it onto Brian Lenihan. Hopefully he takes the idea on board

I like your outside the box thinking.

admiralofthefleet

develop wind and wave technology as a source of electricity. we could power the entire country on green electricity and sell it

OctavarIan

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

develop wind and wave technology as a source of electricity. we could power the entire country on green electricity and sell it

Scotland are way ahead of us.

Ninjedi

OctavarIan wrote: »

Scotland are way ahead of us.

Only because it's a handy way to make a few bob!

That said, that sort of thing is doing fine up here in Donegal, you'd even see the odd private residence with their own windmill now and again