The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

aidan24326

starbelgrade wrote: »

Moronic?

How do you think airlines such as Ryanair have such big turnovers? Do you really think that a 2p flight to the UK is the real cost of the seat? Would you call Michael O'Leary an idiot or a good businessman?

I don't think you're comparing like with like.

Ryanair will sell the first x number of seats at a loss yes, then the next block of seats go at a higher price, and so on until the people who book at short notice are paying high prices for any remaining seats on the flight. In effect the latecomers paying high prices are subsidisng the losses on the cheap seats.

That works well for an airline, but I'm not sure how you could adapt that sort of business model to a pub. (though I'd agree that pubs in general could be a bit more imaginative in how they do business).

starbelgrade

mahamageehad wrote: »

To be fair the only reason that ryanair can afford to sell such cheap flights is because they add ridiculous charges- €6 for online check in and no other option! €5 administration charge for using for credit card! And they absolutely rape you on name change fees (€100) and last minute flights!!! It's completely different to pubs- they can't say if you order in advance it's €4 but you waited till the last minute so it's €12.

I don't think anyone is really expecting the pubs to sell for less than cost price but i'm sure the profit margins could be reduced significantly.

I agree with you.

However, as the VFI are calling for the abolishment of below cost selling of alcohol by supermarkets, my point was that below cost selling is a good thing for both the consumer & competition in the market place.

I wasn't suggesting that pubs should follow the same business model as Ryanair, but that in order to survive, they need to address their own business models - the lazy way to do this is through some form of protectionism, which they are looking for - rather than doing something proactive about it, which they are clearly not.

poppyvalley

poppyvalley wrote: »

What about all the publicans who buy loads of booze in the supermarket!! then sell it in their premises at 3 or 4 times what they paid for it, plus there is no paper trail for the taxman to follow. The black economy at its best! as it's always been

Most supermarkets have quotas on how much beer you can buy to prevent this. We once had a publican in looking for a pallet of miller when it was reduced. Told him no chance and he went into rage! He rang up the shop again an hour later threatening all sorts. Muppet.

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

Moronic?

How do you think airlines such as Ryanair have such big turnovers? Do you really think that a 2p flight to the UK is the real cost of the seat? Would you call Michael O'Leary an idiot or a good businessman?

And why do you think we got rid of the Groceries Bill in Ireland?

As I said before, below cost selling is of huge benefit to the customer. You may not like the idea, because you haven't the intellectual or business capability to use that to your own advantage in your business, but that does not make it a moronic concept, just one that you have failed to understand.

Airlines such as ryan air charge minimally lower prices than other airlines and do away with the frills like proper maintenance and the like* they charge heavily for last minute flights and then use those profits to subsidise other cheap flights to enforce the belief that they are always cheap.

They also utilise advertising and other media forms to support the business, BTW how much is a drink on a ryanair flight???

"As I said before, below cost selling is of huge benefit to the customer"
Yes it is - but it isnt very much good to the business owner who employs you is it?

We got rid of the groceries bill in ireland during a time when nobody cared of the consequences to small business as everyone was doing well. The groceries bill as a direct result is closing shops and newsagents at such a pace that soon you will have no option other than to go to tesco or wherever get some bread or milk etc.

I have plenty of capabilities, both intellectual and in business. but refuse to agree that pubs which sell alcohol would do better selling it below cost.

Maybe im missing something tho! I could be completely wrong and the actual way to make money is to buy something for €1 and sell it for .50c...

Actually sorry - that IS how its done - my apologies - Im off to make a fortune!!!!!

*joke

Dwaegon

kfallon wrote: »

I would put it to you that more people in this country play football (5 a side or 11 a side) each day/week than rugby, explain that if there are more rugby lovers!

Stats please!

ardinn

Degag wrote: »

I know how much it costs. I thought that was evident from my post.

It wasnt directly aimed at you. Just for all to see. I wasnt having a pop.

rossie1977

its only when you get out of ireland do you realise how much we are getting ripped off here, in fussen a very touristy town in southern germany you can get high quality weissbier for €2.80 a pint in top hotels, in touristy bars in prague a pint of czech beer will set you back €1.25, much cheaper again in non-tourist places in the south of the city, in orlando across the road from univeral studios the ale house has pints of the usual american beer such as miller, coors etc for $2

what the republic really needs is the introduction of chains like wetherspoons city centre pubs in belfast haven't moaned and complained despite one competing with them, one or two in temple bar, another one on camden street, one or two down shop street in galway and in limerick/cork/waterford etc and you would soon see prices dropping in ordinary pubs i bet

starbelgrade

Deleted User wrote: »

Most supermarkets have quotas on how much beer you can buy to prevent this. We once had a publican in looking for a pallet of miller when it was reduced. Told him no chance and he went into rage! He rang up the shop again an hour later threatening all sorts. Muppet.

I don't agree with supermarkets being allowed to stipulate the limits on how much items of below cost goods can be put on a customer.

Supermarkets have huge bargaining power with suppliers & larger profit margins to play around with & as such, can easily put small traders out of business.

The only reason they put limits on purchases is to do exactly this - to put small traders out of business. And this, in the long term, has the opposite effect of creating competition.

amacachi

starbelgrade wrote: »

There is no doubt that the below cost selling practices of the supermarkets has affected the pub trade. So it is not quite as simple as saying that the pubs only have themselves to blame, as there are other external factors over which they have no control.

What is the cost to the supermarket for a can though? I can't find the rate handy at the moment but before the ban on below-cost selling was lifted a few years ago there were cans knocking around at 75c each.

Bogsnorkler

ardinn wrote: »

"As I said before, below cost selling is of huge benefit to the customer"
Yes it is - but it isnt very much good to the business owner who employs you is it?

Its not my problem if you get out competed by pubs that can afford to charge less.

Lower prices benefits the consumer and imo would be a further step in reducing living costs in this country

Idbatterim

its only when you get out of ireland do you realise how much we are getting ripped off here

but you have to question is the high cost going into the publicans pocket or right back out the door again in the form of rent, staff, cost of purchase i.e alcohol etc etc etc? Alot of the costs here are government controlled. Other countries (and Im half german I know) do charge less, but I really think they may earn more than publicans do here.

ardinn

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Its not my problem if you get out competed by pubs that can afford to charge less.

Lower prices benefits the consumer and imo would be a further step in reducing living costs in this country

I wasnt saying it was - that whole argument which you part quoted stated that the below cost selling of alcohol in the trade would benifit the pub. My argument was as to how?

And if you want to close down every small business in this country, which is what is happening then this would be a good way to go about it.

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

Airlines such as ryan air charge minimally lower prices than other airlines and do away with the frills like proper maintenance and the like* they charge heavily for last minute flights and then use those profits to subsidise other cheap flights to enforce the belief that they are always cheap.

They also utilise advertising and other media forms to support the business, BTW how much is a drink on a ryanair flight???

"As I said before, below cost selling is of huge benefit to the customer"
Yes it is - but it isnt very much good to the business owner who employs you is it?

We got rid of the groceries bill in ireland during a time when nobody cared of the consequences to small business as everyone was doing well. The groceries bill as a direct result is closing shops and newsagents at such a pace that soon you will have no option other than to go to tesco or wherever get some bread or milk etc.

I have plenty of capabilities, both intellectual and in business. but refuse to agree that pubs which sell alcohol would do better selling it below cost.

Maybe im missing something tho! I could be completely wrong and the actual way to make money is to buy something for €1 and sell it for .50c...

Actually sorry - that IS how its done - my apologies - Im off to make a fortune!!!!!

*joke

The Groceries Bill reduced the cost of food to the customer. The problem with it - as I said in my last post - is that by allowing supermarkets to put limits on how much you could buy, then reduced competition by bullying out small competitors & prices slowly rose again.

One way for the IVF to try & go forward would be for them to push the government to legislate for how supermarkets sell at below cost. Instead of trying to stop them selling at below cost, they should stop them from putting limits on what the consumer could buy.

That way, publicans could buy bottles, cans & spirits at the same price as we do in the supermarkets, then sell them at a profit that would keep them in pocket & entice people back to the pubs.

Lots of people wouldn't mind paying a few pence extra for a bottle of beer in a pub. It's the fact that they have to pay a hell of a lot more than a few pence that puts them off.

Of course, this would probably mean that the supermarkets would up the price of their beer, but so be it... the playing field is more even & everytime you buy food there, at least you're not subsidising the purchase of alcohol by others.

OutlawPete

No pub should be charging more than €3.95 for a pint, €3 for a bottle and €2 for soft drinks.

kfallon

Dwaegon wrote: »

Stats please!

You prove me wrong, I think we both know I'm right!

The Sparrow

Dwaegon wrote: »

Stats please!

OT but it's true. I know Wikipaedia can be unrealiable, but I'm to lazy to find anything else. According to Wiki, GAA is the most popular spectator sport and soccer is the most popular in terms of participation. Rugby is a distant fourth on both counts and especially participation.

Not surprising really since the Dublin District Schoolboy League (DDSL) is the biggest schoolboy league in Europe.

On topic, I have no sympathy for publicans. A pint should be a maximum of €3.50-€4 in Dublin and it is far from that. It is a complete ripoff at the moment so unless pubs sort that out, they will die. Just like every other business that charges too much.

ScumLord

Degag wrote: »

Ya know, i'd agree with you for different reasons though. Sky are a pack of scoundrels. This year, they increased the rates for pubs by about 20% - while reducing the ammount of channels they got! Their reply when the vintners campaigned against it: "We have more pub subscribers in Birmingham than in the whole of Ireland, Tough shít*"


*May not have said "Tough shít"

Sky is a complete rip off, I don't understand why anyone would pay money for it. They have a satelite up in space that covers Europe so it makes absolutely no difference to them where in Europe some one is, it's doesn't cost them more to beam a signal to Ireland than it does to Birmingham. Sky are nothing more than con artists.

ardinn wrote: »

Just so you know it costs €600 per month for a sky subscription for a pub.

I cancelled mine this morning, meaning I will now not be able to offer the sports coverage alot of my customers demand. further reducing patrons, further pushing me towards the door.

From the sounds of things your not really losing out, sure you might not get your regular barflys but with a bit of marketing even just through facebook to let people know there's more to the pub than a tv blaring sports could pull in new business.

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't agree with supermarkets being allowed to stipulate the limits on how much items of below cost goods can be put on a customer.

Supermarkets have huge bargaining power with suppliers & larger profit margins to play around with & as such, can easily put small traders out of business.

The only reason they put limits on purchases is to do exactly this - to put small traders out of business. And this, in the long term, has the opposite effect of creating competition.

You talk sense again - congratulations - yet by small traders you mean toy stores / veg shops / newsagents - please understand that this includes pubs too - this is what the thread is about but it is a wider issue with supermarkets putting alot of businesses to the wall. Slightly hypocritical of previous statements you made in all honesty tho. But this post makes sense.

Recently A man from london walked into my parents newsagents and had a look around - for a bit too long in a way - He then said to my dad - This shop is amazing. Turns out - all the local shops in his area had been long closed - if he needed milk it was 11 miles away in a tesco supermarket. He couldnt fathem a shop in the middle of nowhere being open. Soon this will be the case here - we will be working for the big man and giving him back the money he has paid us with. Its allready happening. Everywhere.

ardinn

ScumLord wrote: »

Sky is a complete rip off, I don't understand why anyone would pay money for it. They have a satelite up in space that covers Europe so it makes absolutely no difference to them where in Europe some one is, it's doesn't cost them more to beam a signal to Ireland than it does to Birmingham. Sky are nothing more than con artists.

From the sounds of things your not really losing out, sure you might not get your regular barflys but with a bit of marketing even just through facebook to let people know there's more to the pub than a tv blaring sports could pull in new business.

Yes I know its not the end of the world but it has an effect.

whatsamsn

boo-hoo.

Pubs have ripped people off for years. 5 euro for a pint while it was always around 2 euro for a can.

I have no sympathy.

fonecrusher1

kfallon wrote: »

There are a lot more football lovers than rugby followers in this country!
Majority of Rugby fans think we only started playing the sport about 7-8 years ago :rolleyes:

Most of them wouldn't even know this guy from Adam

Utter tripe. So your saying rugby fans aren't really proper sports fans? Also yeah there are more football fans than rugby fans. Whats your point? If there is more than one tv in a pub & theres a bit of rugby on i'l ask can one of the tvs be switched over to the rugby. You want to watch football go over to the other tv. Simple.

I watch football sometimes, sometimes its very good, usually its tiresome because of the swan diving, managers pretending to be angry, players pretending to be having a catfight with eachother (and then the crowd goes oooohhh) & just the general superficiality associated with the game.

Theres also a bullsh!t drink-vibe connected with football. I go to the pub to watch the game....honest its nothing to do with the fact that it gives me an excuse to slam back 6 pints on a weekday with the lads. Yeah its all about the sport...glug glug glug...

Yeah sure it is.:rolleyes:

Dwaegon

kfallon wrote: »

You prove me wrong, I think we both know I'm right!

Not without proof I don't!

JoeFritzle

I personally would love to see a minimum price on alcohol because i dont care about the staff the owners or the government so if it gets me wasted for 30 quid ill be delighted

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote: »

Just so you know it costs €600 per month for a sky subscription for a pub.

I cancelled mine this morning, meaning I will now not be able to offer the sports coverage alot of my customers demand. further reducing patrons, further pushing me towards the door.

I don't know how it could push you further towards the door. If the cost of having Sky in was greater than the amount of custom/profit it generates then surely you're better off without it?

Conversely you wouldn't have got rid of it if it was profitable to have it there.

So can you explain how you will be worse off without it?

coffee_cake

JoeFritzle wrote: »

I personally would love to see a minimum price on alcohol because i dont care about the staff the owners or the government so if it gets me wasted for 30 quid ill be delighted

I don't think you understand "minimum price"

zagmund

mahamageehad wrote: »

It's completely different to pubs- they can't say if you order in advance it's €4 but you waited till the last minute so it's €12.

Umm, yes they can. Take off the OMG-glasses and look at it this way - say the price of your drink is €4.50, they could pre-sell vouchers for the drink for say €4, either in bulk (like 5 vouchers at a time) or in advance (to be used on a day other than today).

This way the publican gets cash in advance, guaranteed sales, guaranteed return customer in the case of the advance sale, the punter gets a bargain. Win/win.

OMG, I hear you say, but the publican makes a loss of 50c on every sale. Take off them OMG-glasses. He doesn't. First of all, the pint costs him less than €4 so he's still making a profit. Second for every voucher that gets lost, put in the washing machine, accidentally ripped up, or otherwise not used he has just made the margin on another 8 drinks. This is part of the same basis that book tokens operate on - lost or unused tokens = 100% profit margin, plus of course people come in with one voucher but spend that and cash in the end.

z

starbelgrade

ardinn wrote: »

You talk sense again - congratulations - yet by small traders you mean toy stores / veg shops / newsagents - please understand that this includes pubs too - this is what the thread is about but it is a wider issue with supermarkets putting alot of businesses to the wall. Slightly hypocritical of previous statements you made in all honesty tho. But this post makes sense.

I don't know where you found hypocrisy in anything I posted. I may have clarified some points in my last post, but it was not hypocritical.

Look, my point is this, pure & simple - if you take the airline model, Aer Lingus used to have a monopoly in this country. Ryan Air broke that monolopy & it was of huge benefit to everyone, as flying was no longer the priveledge of the rich. They did so, by providing choice & value for money - essentially by giving the customer what they wanted.

OK, they are not for everyone, but no business can be everything to every man. But they have a business model that works & they persue it, agressively and it works.

I'm not saying that publicians should copy the Ryan Air model, but they could take a few things from it.

The problem with the pubs is that they are not pro-active... they expect to just open their doors & have customers flock in & pay the price they ask for the drink they are selling.

They are ignoring the fact that customers don't have the same money they used to, or if they do, they are being wiser in how they spend it.

Price is a huge issue - probably the main one. Yet, instead of trying to address that at source by trying to reduce the price the suppliers charge & by reducing overheads, they are going after the supermarkets for below cost selling... and not even for how they operate the below cost selling.

The bottom line is - if your business model is not working, then it needs to be changed.

Most pubs business plans are as advanced as this;

1. Get premises
2. Obtain a licencse
3. Sell booze

That's not a business plan - in the good times, it worked, but these days it is just a plan for failure.

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

The Groceries Bill reduced the cost of food to the customer. The problem with it - as I said in my last post - is that by allowing supermarkets to put limits on how much you could buy, then reduced competition by bullying out small competitors & prices slowly rose again.

One way for the IVF to try & go forward would be for them to push the government to legislate for how supermarkets sell at below cost. Instead of trying to stop them selling at below cost, they should stop them from putting limits on what the consumer could buy.

That way, publicans could buy bottles, cans & spirits at the same price as we do in the supermarkets, then sell them at a profit that would keep them in pocket & entice people back to the pubs.

Lots of people wouldn't mind paying a few pence extra for a bottle of beer in a pub. It's the fact that they have to pay a hell of a lot more than a few pence that puts them off.

Of course, this would probably mean that the supermarkets would up the price of their beer, but so be it... the playing field is more even & everytime you buy food there, at least you're not subsidising the purchase of alcohol by others.

Your right, but still missing the point.

The pub has to deal with (I hate saying this but it is THE DECIDING factor) running costs that are just unsustainable to most - If I can get away from megapubs and clubs for a moment and concentrate on rural and small village/town pubs the price they currently charge is probably still not enough to "grow" a business (it may get them by) meaning currently - they need to sell volume at their current price, not volume at a lower price.

Just to say that the miller you buy for 24btls at €20 in tesco will cost the publican about €35 from a supplier - the gaps are bigger than you imagine.

grizzly

Deleted User wrote: »

Most supermarkets have quotas on how much beer you can buy to prevent this. We once had a publican in looking for a pallet of miller when it was reduced. Told him no chance and he went into rage! He rang up the shop again an hour later threatening all sorts. Muppet.

Where I worked we just broke up large sales and put through multiple times. Saved the hassle of getting into an argument.

ardinn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know where you found hypocrisy in anything I posted. I may have clarified some points in my last post, but it was not hypocritical.

starbelgrade wrote: »

However, as the VFI are calling for the abolishment of below cost selling of alcohol by supermarkets, my point was that below cost selling is a good thing for both the consumer & competition in the market place.

starbelgrade wrote: »

Supermarkets have huge bargaining power with suppliers & larger profit margins to play around with & as such, can easily put small traders out of business.

The only reason they put limits on purchases is to do exactly this - to put small traders out of business. And this, in the long term, has the opposite effect of creating competition.

Here ^^^^