How Is Ireland Such A Sh!thole?

Dangerous Man

amacca wrote: »

I mostly agree strangely enough.....we may not pay for them but we definitely seem to subsidise their lifestyles to a certain extent.

I'd have no problem with the payments at all though if their "transgressions" were dealt with more effectively so they could'nt "disregard for the rules of normal society"

I think the transgressions should go hand in hand with a reduction in payment

No. This is wrong. A person receives social welfare because they have no other sufficient form of income. If a person on social welfare committs a crime, their circumstances that brought them to the social welfare system haven't changed. Their need hasn't diminished. By all means prosecute them, but do so in an egalitarian fashion; if a person with a high income were to commit a similar transgression he wouldn't have to endure the humiliation of having his only means of income reduced / removed. I'm all for punishing crime, but only in a fair manner. Punishment should deter further transgressions. Remoing social welfare payments won't do anything except increase the possibility of additional crime.

Quiet you

The issue isn't how much social welfare we give out or where the free houses are located. It's the commit a crime and not get punished lark that we've embraced so wholeheartedly.

Here's what I wanna see by the end of the year. Murderers, rapists, pedophiles and people that have been caught attempting these things (getting caught with an offensive weapon too) to be punished via an organ 'donation' scheme. These crimes are that of taking or ruining lives so its only fitting that they should have to give unfortunate worthwhile people a second chance. This could also help the economy seeing as we could sell the surplus organs to other countries.

As for lesser crimes like burglary, shop lifting and such i think a simple explosive necklace tracker thingy would work wonders. You get caught, you get a necklace. You commit a crime and if the system says you were there at the time, bang!

Now I know loads of you will get up on your high horse about this with comments like "you cant do that you fascist" or "two wrongs don't make a right, lets do it to you and see how you like it" but to all of you I simply say nuts.

The intelligent among you will be thinking " thats not such a bad idea but what about the aids riddled junkies? Who's gonna want their organs?" Its a good question and yes, I have the answer. Medical research. Why spend years and millions torturing poor bunnies for the replacement to anadin extra when we can just hand them over to some pharmaceutical company? They'd bite our hands off for the opportunity and we'd get a lot of job creation in the R&D sector.

Dangerous Man

amacca wrote: »

Perhaps...but there are some very good reasons for not having exclusively or indeed a large proportion of "local police" for "local people"

Absolutely. I agree. If a police force is 'too local' you then run the risk of police becoming corrupted by over-familiarity. But the position that exists now is completely unbalanced.

mickydoomsux

amacca wrote: »

I think the transgressions should go hand in hand with a reduction in payment

Indeed. If you had a job and picked up a conviction for something there's a pretty good chance you'd be fired, completely losing your income.

If you're on the welfare gravy train you can break as many laws as you like and still get all your payments and the guilty socially liberal judge will probably take it handy on you if you ever end up in court because you're a "disadvantaged" type.

BickNarry

mickydoomsux wrote: »

We pretty much copy everything England does regarding social policy

Ireland’s roots in social care/welfare lay in British rule. During the late 1700s and early 1800’s growing industrialisation in agriculture and manufacturing placed strains on traditional forms of welfare and social supports. Along with this, the growth of Industrialisation led to unemployment in rural areas, causing people to wander the country looking for work, and began to accumulate in cities. In 1938, the Poor Law act introduced a nationwide system of poor relief based on the workhouse, financed by a local property tax. It was closely modelled on the same law which was introduced in Britain in 1834.

So yeah,like Britain not by choice.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

including giving scobes an easy life because of our liberal guilt.

In the late 19th century, social work emerged out of numerous voluntary groups, such as St. Vincent de Paul and the Sisters of Charity. In this first phase of the development of the profession at the end of 19th century, over 10 percent of the population were living in extreme poverty and there were over 400 charitable groups in Dublin providing social services to the ‘deserving’ and ‘respectable’ poor (Darling, 1972). With the tension between Catholic and Protestant Churches at the time, religious charities were being more motivated to provide for their communities. Catholic organisations tended to provide a wide range of services whereas the Protestant organisations specialised in certain areas and were more concerned with social reform. These Christian valued remained central to social work right up until the 1960’s and the raising of funds and administrating funds to those who deserved it remained a primary task for religious orders throughout the 19th Century and into the 20th century.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

We throw free money, travel and housing at the "disadvantaged" hoping they'll actually become worthwhile people while what we're actually doing is showing them that they can be complete wasters and everyone else in society will just prop them up.

I'm not even gonna bother,we all know thats not what goes on.

RockinRolla

Quiet you wrote: »

The issue isn't how much social welfare we give out or where the free houses are located. It's the commit a crime and not get punished lark that we've embraced so wholeheartedly.

Here's what I wanna see by the end of the year. Murderers, rapists, pedophiles and people that have been caught attempting these things (getting caught with an offensive weapon too) to be punished via an organ 'donation' scheme. These crimes are that of taking or ruining lives so its only fitting that they should have to give unfortunate worthwhile people a second chance. This could also help the economy seeing as we could sell the surplus organs to other countries.

As for lesser crimes like burglary, shop lifting and such i think a simple explosive necklace tracker thingy would work wonders. You get caught, you get a necklace. You commit a crime and if the system says you were there at the time, bang!

Now I know loads of you will get up on your high horse about this with comments like "you cant do that you fascist" or "two wrongs don't make a right, lets do it to you and see how you like it" but to all of you I simply say nuts.

The intelligent among you will be thinking " thats not such a bad idea but what about the aids riddled junkies? Who's gonna want their organs?" Its a good question and yes, I have the answer. Medical research. Why spend years and millions torturing poor bunnies for the replacement to anadin extra when we can just hand them over to some pharmaceutical company? They'd bite our hands off for the opportunity and we'd get a lot of job creation in the R&D sector.

It's settled then - sell the fcukers off as guinea pigs.

Badgermonkey

Quiet you wrote: »

Here's what I wanna see by the end of the year. Murderers, rapists, pedophiles and people that have been caught attempting these things (getting caught with an offensive weapon too) to be punished via an organ 'donation' scheme. These crimes are that of taking or ruining lives so its only fitting that they should have to give unfortunate worthwhile people a second chance. This could also help the economy seeing as we could sell the surplus organs to other countries.

I knew you hadn't gone away Minister McDowell, I just knew it.:)

Mr. Loverman

I know plenty of scumbags, but they all have decent jobs so they are too busy to be vandals, commit petty crimes, etc.

I think you either are or are not a scumbag. It just so happens that being unemployed gives you a lot of free time so you are more likely to act on your scumbag urges.

That's my theory anyway.

af_thefragile

Because we like it in the bum...

Which eventually has resulted in incontinence.
And this is why there's sh*t everywhere you see!!

Quiet you

It just makes sense. It costs a fortune to keep them in prison and thats if they get there at all. Why not make a return on the social welfare investment?

We got them fattened up and now its time to cash in.

Absurdum

IT'S THE PARENTSES FAULT JOE

Ali Babba

The main reason it's a sh!thole is it's being run by crooks who change the laws to suit them selves, there are too many bleeding hearts who feel sorry for every lame duck that comes forward and people are afraid to make a stand and say nothing for a quiet life. Anyone who tries to do anything good here are ridiculed or are made out to be making something out of it when they rock the boat.

This place is in such a state now I doubt it will ever be sorted.

Absurdum

imo one of the main reasons for this is that the politicians and people in general are afraid of their lives that they'll offend someone, it's the same craic in this forum as well

amacca

Dangerous Man wrote: »

No. This is wrong. A person receives social welfare because they have no other sufficient form of income. If a person on social welfare committs a crime, their circumstances that brought them to the social welfare system haven't changed. Their need hasn't diminished. By all means prosecute them, but do so in an egalitarian fashion; if a person with a high income were to commit a similar transgression he wouldn't have to endure the humiliation of having his only means of income reduced / removed. I'm all for punishing crime, but only in a fair manner. Punishment should deter further transgressions. Remoing social welfare payments won't do anything except increase the possibility of additional crime.

I see your point...but


1) subsistence or not (not imo in ireland) these people are receiving a benefit/handout with no work required - in a sense its unearned (the one thats not based on stamps anyway) - why should they receive the same rate after they have committed a crime against a citizen that presumably is helping support them

why shouldn't this be one of the strings attached to this benefit

cant we be egalitarian with those recipients that arent commiting crime/engaging in anti social behaviour - the criminals obviously don't believe in equality for law abiding citizens anyway

2) As another poster has stated - if someone working and with more of an income was prosecuted they wouldn't continue to earn at the same rate as beforehand what with not being able to work and having difficulty finding a job afterwards

3) our prisons are overcrowded but imo we still have a problem with anti-social behaviour/mindless thuggery brought on to a large extent by idle hands - so why not hit them where it hurts to a certain extent (in the wallet) - I believe it would lead to a reduction in "scumbaggishness" if it was going to cost you

saving on prison space/spend - saving on welfare payout

4) In the interests of being egalitarian - hit the rich too - whatever benefit they have obtained from their illegal activities - take it all back off them, no excuses/no shelters etc

amacca

Absurdum wrote: »

IT'S THE PARENTSES FAULT JOE

Excuse me but you dont sound like your from Clontarf.

Next caller ..pleeaaaase!

sollar

Why not cut the dole of people who break the law or are convicted of anti social behavior. Give them 10 or 20 less every week for a year etc. If it hits them in the pocket they might think twice.

If they are under 18 apply the same to their parents dole.

Quiet you

sollar wrote: »

If they are under 18 apply the same to their parents dole.

Now there's thunking. Force parents into taking a little responsibilty for their brats.

Nolanger

sollar wrote: »

Why not cut the dole of people who break the law or are convicted of anti social behavior.

Because they'll go to the Health Board and get money.

saywhatyousee

sollar wrote: »

Why not cut the dole of people who break the law or are convicted of anti social behavior. Give them 10 or 20 less every week for a year etc. If it hits them in the pocket they might think twice.

If they are under 18 apply the same to their parents dole.

good idea in "theory" however if thats was to happen vast area's would be turned into proper ghettos new orleans style.
what would you rather?
option 1.get jeered by 15yo's at spar(current system)
option 2.introduce your system and risked being car jacked every time you stop at a red light

Nodin

RockinRolla wrote: »

..............The reason Ireland is such a sh!thole is because the burden of society in this country are given the means to live at a similar level as the rest of us, meaning, they are in a good position to impose their values or even their presence in our everyday lives.

.........

So when the life of Brian and condoms were banned, there was all this **** about drink being sold in supermarkets and garages, joe duffy talking through his holy joe hole about headshops and similar such instances, it was the skangers that were responsible?

Ali Babba

What I think is hilarious about this country is it's easier to get illigal drugs here than a sliced pan after 11 at night yet advertising for cigarettes and drink is banned in most cases, headshops are illegal etc. Ffs, any handy chemistry student with internet access could make up most of the stuff you's buy in a head shop anyway. It's the old storey, keep us in the dark and what we don't know won't worry us. I fcuking hate that attidude!!!!

aDeener

RockinRolla wrote: »

Just got back from traveling and as soon as I arrived, the first thing I seen were primitive skangers - it's good to be home etc.. Now, I've put some thought into this and I've come to the conclusion that it's our social system letting these "couldn't be bothered to do a days work when theres free money" maggots walk the same streets as regular folk.

Think about it.

The reason Ireland is such a sh!thole is because the burden of society in this country are given the means to live at a similar level as the rest of us, meaning, they are in a good position to impose their values or even their presence in our everyday lives.

People complain that these scumbags are hanging around their neighbourhoods. The reason they're hanging around your neighbourhood for christ sake is because they're given the money to live like you! If not, these sh!t-for-brains (honestly, basic intelligence needs to be beat into certain people) would be living in estates far far away from you.

If there was no social welfare, these people would soon find out how jolly it was to live in a wonderland.

Ireland is far from a shithole. :rolleyes:

Wagon

Cut the social welfare for them and then they'd turn to crime. If they haven't already. Anyway, what about the genuine unemployed, who make up the majority on the dole? It isn't fair on them.

I'd be pushing for shooting them. Place is a shíthole because it's boring.

Herb Powell

RockinRolla wrote: »

Just got back from traveling and as soon as I arrived, the first thing I seen were primitive skangers - it's good to be home etc.. Now, I've put some thought into this and I've come to the conclusion that it's our social system letting these "couldn't be bothered to do a days work when theres free money" maggots walk the same streets as regular folk.

Think about it.

The reason Ireland is such a sh!thole is because the burden of society in this country are given the means to live at a similar level as the rest of us, meaning, they are in a good position to impose their values or even their presence in our everyday lives.

People complain that these scumbags are hanging around their neighbourhoods. The reason they're hanging around your neighbourhood for christ sake is because they're given the money to live like you! If not, these sh!t-for-brains (honestly, basic intelligence needs to be beat into certain people) would be living in estates far far away from you.

If there was no social welfare, these people would soon find out how jolly it was to live in a wonderland.

what

Quiet you wrote: »

The issue isn't how much social welfare we give out or where the free houses are located. It's the commit a crime and not get punished lark that we've embraced so wholeheartedly.

Here's what I wanna see by the end of the year. Murderers, rapists, pedophiles and people that have been caught attempting these things (getting caught with an offensive weapon too) to be punished via an organ 'donation' scheme. These crimes are that of taking or ruining lives so its only fitting that they should have to give unfortunate worthwhile people a second chance. This could also help the economy seeing as we could sell the surplus organs to other countries.

As for lesser crimes like burglary, shop lifting and such i think a simple explosive necklace tracker thingy would work wonders. You get caught, you get a necklace. You commit a crime and if the system says you were there at the time, bang!

Now I know loads of you will get up on your high horse about this with comments like "you cant do that you fascist" or "two wrongs don't make a right, lets do it to you and see how you like it" but to all of you I simply say nuts.

The intelligent among you will be thinking " thats not such a bad idea but what about the aids riddled junkies? Who's gonna want their organs?" Its a good question and yes, I have the answer. Medical research. Why spend years and millions torturing poor bunnies for the replacement to anadin extra when we can just hand them over to some pharmaceutical company? They'd bite our hands off for the opportunity and we'd get a lot of job creation in the R&D sector.

you trollin

Jesus Wept

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What's their reason for doing it now, when there is welfare?

Will they still be given comedy-sentences like they get now for being "disadvantaged"?

I think you are missing the point. If there was no welfare, you wouldn't be able to walk the streets - at all.

Thequite an

I often think we are lucky to have such a tolerant society,there are many reasons why people will not or cannot have not worked ( skangers is a new one to me)some would say luck either bad or good, all in all of the one million eight hundred thousand in gainful employment today how many of those are happy working where they are,how many of those can travel round the world and took particular notice of how many were out of work by choice,I an sure you feel the same way about Bankers,the poxy government we have or the upper grade civil servants who between them have gave our Country the sort of cheer we could do without reminds me of some people in the northern part of our Country who were born in Ireland but want to be who they never can be any way I have been thru several recessions and am still working then I suppose I was lucky

mickydoomsux

Thequite an wrote: »

I often think we are lucky to have such a tolerant society,there are many reasons why people will not or cannot have not worked ( skangers is a new one to me)some would say luck either bad or good, all in all of the one million eight hundred thousand in gainful employment today how many of those are happy working where they are,how many of those can travel round the world and took particular notice of how many were out of work by choice,I an sure you feel the same way about Bankers,the poxy government we have or the upper grade civil servants who between them have gave our Country the sort of cheer we could do without reminds me of some people in the northern part of our Country who were born in Ireland but want to be who they never can be any way I have been thru several recessions and am still working then I suppose I was lucky

This current recession seems to have claimed your full-stops.

scientific1982

Absurdum wrote: »

IT'S THE PARENTSES FAULT JOE

It really ****in is though. Bad parenting is responsible for 90% of the social problems we have in Ireland. If you're not going to raise your kids in a responsible and thoughtful manner, close your ****in legs.

Quiet you

Herb Powell wrote: »

you trollin

Well, maybe I am with the exploding necklace thing but I'm deadly serious about the rest of my post. It costs an absolute fortune to keep those people in prison and once they're released we have to start the social welfare payments for them until they get caught and go back to costing us a fortune.

If they only take from society then society should take from them.

mickydoomsux

scientific1982 wrote: »

It really ****in is though. Bad parenting is responsible for 90% of the social problems we have in Ireland. If you're not going to raise your kids in a responsible and thoughtful manner, close your ****in legs.

And give up the childrens allowance and the increased chance of getting a council house?