Taxi - 9 year rule

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

You are being silly now.

So if I pay by cash & need a receipt, its €x amount but if I pay by cash without need for receipt, its €x - 10%. So you are telling me that the job without receipt & discounted is still being recorded in the office & returned at year end to revenue.
To believe that this happens is naive.

Which is why if you get in my car whether you want a receipt or not you pay what the meter says, as I said it's a concious choice, same as you have the choice of using the driver/company that offers you the discount of 10% and covertly supporting the practice.

As a point of reference the law is explicit in that all fares (taxi NOT Hackney) should have a printed receipt and that any discounts etc. are recorded by hand on the receipt before filling in the total,
There is a palaver of prebooked off the meter waived rights fares but thats a different thread altogether

But just to get back on topic, does this mean that drivers of newer cars are less tax compliant than those of 9 Year old cars and above?

Spook_ie

RoverJames wrote: »

Oh the irony, I'm from the Lough myself, my Dad drove Taxi's for years, he was employed by a self employed taxi driver, it was all above board, Dad received a different wage every week depending on what he took it. He used to earn a % of what he took in. He was an employee, he had his tax free allowance split between his pension and the taxi job.

You know little about the situation in Cork, the 60/40% arrangment between owner and driver appears to be unheard of in Dublin.




He was an employee.

So he paid PAYE and PRSI at class A and the employer gave him his statutary rights as an employee, all I can say to that is Gizza A Job

Spook_ie

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If ardle1's figures were accurate, they might as well declare it all as they aren't earning enough to have to pay any tax anyhow.

Which makes me think the real figures are 3 or 4 or times what ardle1 claims.

Funny you should say that, I paid no tax on last years return

mickdw

Spook_ie wrote: »

But just to get back on topic, does this mean that drivers of newer cars are less tax compliant than those of 9 Year old cars and above?

You could look at it that way. Its also possible that the drivers of newer cars have better business heads are not as lazy, going out & sourcing regular contract work or alternatively, it could be that the nicer car is getting them more fairs.

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

You could look at it that way. Its also possible that the drivers of newer cars have better business heads are not as lazy, going out & sourcing regular contract work or alternatively, it could be that the nicer car is getting them more fairs.

Difficult to quantify, but in my experience, a mid range car, of mid age is a far better business proposition, there is very little regular contract work in the middle of the night ( my prefered hours ) and the customers are split about 50/50 between those that like a nicer car and those that would take any car, I get a few who get in and remark on how nice to get in a clean car and I get scumbags that stick chewing gum down the side of the seats for the next passenger.

One story I will relate to you though concerns a fare I picked up in Clontarf last week, another taxi driver who drives a 2008 S class, interestingly the conversation turned to how come and it seems that he was doing a limo job, started off with an E-Class worked up to taking out an 80K loan for the S-Class and then the bottom fell out of the limo side of it so he had no choice but to put a plate on it. Now I have no idea how he meets the payments or even if he does but it's not all wine and roses even if you have a posh car

kona

Where is Andy Gray when you need him??:pac:

ardle1

-Chris- wrote: »

Well, that's why we're looking at the sums we're being provided with. The presumption is that all journeys are on the meter and all drivers are fully tax compliant, but the figures we've been given in this thread don't seem to support a driver in any meaningful way.

This poses three questions for me:
How can the regulator impose such costs to businesspeople who are in such a low earning industry?
Why are people joining the industry, and why aren't more people getting out?
Is it possible that the figures given in this thread are incorrect, or just representative of a poor businessperson, and other drivers will be able to show greater earning potential?

Any thoughts on this?

Yes the figures are correct,, and they do not include Dublin(obviously).

ardle1

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If ardle1's figures were accurate, they might as well declare it all as they aren't earning enough to have to pay any tax anyhow.

Which makes me think the real figures are 3 or 4 or times what ardle1 claims.

The figures are accurate,, and dont include Dublin (obviously) and maybe a couple of other major tourist areas. Hope this helps.

ardle1

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Name the company James, I've a few relations in Cork city around the Lough and Horgan's Buildings and another lot out in Cobh, three of 'em drive cabs. The days of a 2nd driver on a car (or "Cosy" as they were known) are pretty much over and even when Cosy's existed, all they did was pay a fixed amount (called "freight") for the car, owner of car never got a cut of the takings.
I've been married to a driver for 16 yrs, I'd reckon I know a fair bit about the industry.

Basically the same here in Dundalk,, 2nd drivers hardly exist now,, just doesn't pay.

ardle1

RoverJames wrote: »

Who started the thread?

As Spook has pointed out the 9 year rule won't be making any wasters leave the industry. You on the other hand reckon it will result in folks who love their job having to leave the industry as they can't afford it. As I said if they can't afford to put a car under themselves for the next couple of years for a few grand they are in the wrong game.

I don't have a clue? So where you work as a taxi driver there are not a lot of scumbags, lads flouting the smart dressed rule by wearing tracksuits and there are not a load of the scruffy and overweight looking? Ok.

:cool:Scruffy and overweight!! could be stress:cool:

HappyHouseWife

RoverJames wrote: »

Oh the irony, I'm from the Lough myself, my Dad drove Taxi's for years, he was employed by a self employed taxi driver, it was all above board, Dad received a different wage every week depending on what he took it. He used to earn a % of what he took in. He was an employee, he had his tax free allowance split between his pension and the taxi job.

You know little about the situation in Cork, the 60/40% arrangment between owner and driver appears to be unheard of in Dublin.




He was an employee.

You seem like a bright boy James so let's go through this little scenario.
(all names and figures are examples only)

Mr Smith decides to set up a Cab Company, he has a couple of options,

1) He can buy 10 cars, fit them out as taxi's and rent them out to drivers for €300 per week regardless of how much that driver makes in that car. all these drivers remain self employed and Mr Smith has no legal obligations to them or tax implications apart from declaring the €300 per week per car as his personal income, Mr Smith doesn't even have to check if drivers are tax compliant!

2) He can buy 10 cars, fit them out as taxi's and employ ten drivers to drive them, he now has to (probably) employ an accountant to keep track of drivers earnings, he now has to also worry about whether his drivers are working hard enough or ripping him off. he has to stop tax and PRSI on behalf of these drivers, he has to make employers PRSI contributions for each of those drivers, he has to make these drivers aware of their pension entitlements, he probably also becomes subject to umpteen pieces of EU legislation regarding employment.

Employ a bit of logic here James and tell me which one is the easier for a cab company?

99.9% of cab companies successfully use the first scenario and you're trying to tell us that they do it differently in Cork?

You are going to have to face it someday James,
You don't know everything about everything and I reckon you're out of your depth on this subject.

Spook_ie

Spook_ie wrote: »

So he paid PAYE and PRSI at class A and the employer gave him his statutary rights as an employee, all I can say to that is Gizza A Job

........ also as the owner of the cab had been assaulted previously his wife didn't want him working nights, so Dad worked Thurs, Fri and Sat night only, back in the day when all 3 were busy shifts, especially with the main student night being on a Thursday back then :cool:

Also used to get a Christmas box off the owner.

ardle1

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

The figures quoted above are not far from the reality of the situation at the moment, we're surviving because I work full time and I am now the chief earner in the house plus we're lucky in sofar as we're 15yrs into our mortgage etc. I can't remember the last time we went out for something to eat or a drink because we just couldn't afford to.
It is downright ignorant of people above to say "if you don't like it, get out of it and do something else" I wonder what the average age of taxi drivers is across the country, I'll bet it's in the mid forties somewhere, how much work do you reckon is in this country for people in their mid forties? (or any age group for that matter).
Someone else here said "I paid €25 from Lucan to city", that driver may not have had a job for a couple of hours before that run and quite possibly didn't do another for a couple of hours after.
I remember hubby coming in one Tuesday night after 6 hours out "working" and he'd made €17 gross! And yes, I believe him.
Times are tough for most workers at the moment but it's especially tough if you're self employed.

That's the truth,, I'm really lucky I dont have a mortgage, not like some of the drivers I know, their really struggling working sometimes 6 shifts, just to make ends meet.:mad:

HappyHouseWife

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Employ a bit of logic here James and tell me which one is the easier for a cab company?

99.9% of cab companies successfully use the first scenario and you're trying to tell us that they do it differently in Cork?

You are going to have to face it someday James,
You don't know everything about everything and I reckon you're out of your depth on this subject.

60% of what they take in will be alot more than €300/week Also they have two or three drivers per car. You don't know all about it yourself darling so it's about time you accepted it

Any one who employs folk will testify that the accounting side of it isn't much of a load to carry, most folks owning a taxi company would already have an accountant anyway. The base operator(s) would be an employee(s) so it's not really a load to have a few more.

I know lots of self employed lads who complain about the cars that are owned by the base being "fed" the better work, why bother of they are only getting a flat rate off the driver?

Logic darling.

I'd love to run an IP check on your posts to see do they match anyone elses, weird how you come along today

Gary ITR

RoverJames wrote: »

I'd love to run an IP check on your posts to see do they match anyone elses, weird how you come along today

Don't start

steph1

People need to realise that there are taxis outside Dublin. I am a taxi driver who operates in the West of Ireland. I am not happy with the 9 year rule as I took a perfectly good EClass Merc off the road just because it had a 99 reg number on it. This car could have done me for another 2 to three years but no Kathleen Doyle was havin none of it. Its an absolute scandal. But I too am very annoyed as to why no reason for fast-tracking this stupid rule was given despite letters, emails, getting politicians and TDs to ask etc not one answer has been given to this question and it is this one thing that has annoyed a lot of drivers.

Taxi driving in the west of Ireland now is in a dire state. I have almost given up going out on a Monday to Wednesday night as there is hardly a sinner in town and the pubs are empty. I will have my phone on and if a regular customer rings I will pick them up but no way am I going to sit on a rank for three hours and then get some git who will only pay be a fiver for the fare even though it says 8 euro on the meter. The public are now deciding the fares they will pay!!

You cannot compare driving a taxi in Dublin to anywhere else in rural areas. Dublin is the capital city, its a major tourist spot, a business centre, plenty of places for visitors and tourists, concerts, the airport, major train stations etc etc. I dont get any airport fares to Knock anymore as people think the fares are too high (thanks again Kathleen!) so they get family and friends to bring them. The legitimate taxi driver is also having to compete with large public service vehicles - minibuses - who have now decided that its a great idea to come into a larger down with a load of people at so much a head and then take them home again after the disco. I'm not familiar with the rules of large public service vehicles I must enquire as I dont think what they are doing is legal.

So the owner driver like myself is having to give discounts on fares or they will just get someone else, compete with large buses, sit on ranks for hours on end for a fiver run, etc.

Its all very well for some posters on here saying if people cant comply with the 9 year rule they should leave the business. There is very little business for us rural drivers now and as one poster said Saturday is the only night now and even that has decreased in the last two years. People cannot afford to go out now and a lot will have very little disposable incomes now with this new levy. Will be interesting to see how things are here in the West this weekend seeing as the montly paid will have their paychecks and will probably have keeled over when they see how much has been deducted from them.

HappyHouseWife

RoverJames wrote: »

60% of what they take in will be alot more than €300/week Also they have two or three drivers per car. You don't know all about it yourself darling so it's about time you accepted it

Any one who employs folk will testify that the accounting side of it isn't much of a load to carry, most folks owning a taxi company would already have an accountant anyway. The base operator(s) would be an employee(s) so it's not really a load to have a few more.

I know lots of self employed lads who complain about the cars that are owned by the base being "fed" the better work, why bother of they are only getting a flat rate off the driver?

Logic darling.

I'd love to run an IP check on your posts to see do they match anyone elses, weird how you come along today

Ah, so now we're onto 2 and even 3 drivers per car! that's the same old guff you here from drivers complaining "about them blacks, sure isn't there 6 of them driving the one car"

An owner driver can just about scrape a living out at the minute and you're trying to tell me there's 3 drivers to some cars in Cork?
The accountancy side of it is nothing, why would a cab company take on the tax/prsi burden of a driver when they can just rent a car to them perfectly legally?

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm married to a driver and don't call me "darling" you patronising little twirp.

HappyHouseWife

Hi Steph,

I know you tru CT on another site? How's life out west?

Gary ITR

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm married to a driver and don't call me "darling" you patronising little twirp.

If you have a problem with a post, report it, do not resort to personal abuse

steph1

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Hi Steph,

I know you tru CT on another site? How's life out west?

Hi well life is ok could do with an increase in business though
Things are gone absolutely dire. Having invested money from my savings towards a nice car - Eclass Merc - and knowing and budgeting that I would have to change in 2012 - then yur wun moves the goalposts. No reason given and none forthcoming. Just goes to show the way these quangos treat people. Suffice to say I am not a happy camper with the whole shebang.

HappyHouseWife

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

he now has to (probably) employ an accountant to keep track of drivers earnings,

So when it suits you to say so a chap who owns a taxi company having to employ an accountant if he hires drivers to drive his cars is a reason why logically he would just lease the cars to self employed lads

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Ah, so now we're onto 2 and even 3 drivers per car! that's the same old guff you here from drivers complaining "about them blacks, sure isn't there 6 of them driving the one car"

An owner driver can just about scrape a living out at the minute and you're trying to tell me there's 3 drivers to some cars in Cork?
The accountancy side of it is nothing, why would a cab company take on the tax/prsi burden of a driver when they can just rent a car to them perfectly legally?

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm married to a driver and don't call me "darling" you patronising little twirp.

But then when it suits you a while later the accountancy side is nothing :pac:

Yes, there are bases in Cork with more than 2 drivers driving the one car, there are 24 hours in a day and 7 days a week, why have the car sitting there idle when they have already paid lads insurance on cars?
An owner driver can just about scrape a living, fair enough, if he had the car running another 60 hours a week and getting 60% of the takings from that 60 hours wouldn't he be doing better?

And if no bases hire drivers what are all the adds in the evening paper looking for drivers for busy bases about?
http://cork.gumtree.ie/cork/79/68322579.html
What does this dude want drivers for? Is he going to expect them to be self employed and lease them the cars? No mention of that sort of set up.

HappyHouseWife

oh I hear ya Steph, its tough going but we've got to keep the good side out and keep smiling, i've asked head the ball to stay home sunday to wednesday but he likes to go in and keep his cronies company on the rank in town! Better than having him under my feet i suppose! Which E class did you go for?

Spook_ie

RoverJames wrote: »

So when it suits you to say so a chap who owns a taxi company having to employ an accountant if he hires drivers to drive his cars is a reason why logically he would just lease the cars to self employed lads



But then when it suits you a while later the accountancy side is nothing :pac:

Yes, there are bases in Cork with more than 2 drivers driving the one car, there are 24 hours in a day and 7 days a week, why have the car sitting there idle when they have already paid lads insurance on cars?
An owner driver can just about scrape a living, fair enough, if he had the car running another 60 hours a week and getting 60% of the takings from that 60 hours wouldn't he be doing better?

And if no bases hire drivers what are all the adds in the evening paper looking for drivers for busy bases about?
http://cork.gumtree.ie/cork/79/68322579.html
What does this dude want drivers for? Is he going to expect them to be self employed and lease them the cars? No mention of that sort of set up.

A little interjection from me, seeing as you an houswife seem to be having a tiff.

Now I can't and therefore won't say it definately of Cork as I don't live or work there, but, all the bases in the region of Dublin advertise for drivers but they are actualy renting out radios to the driver for some sum that ranges form 75-115 euro per week,

the driver gets the radio pays the fee and in theory gets a feed of work from the cab company. Some companies "pay" the driver by giving them a rebate on the radio costs if they carry advertising for the company
This can be the princely sum of upto €40 a week but is basicly a contract between the driver and the company.

You may also ( from some companies ) rent a complete taxi, this usualy costs between €120 and €250 per week PLUS the radio fee, depending on whether you need insurance or not, invariably, in my experience, these taxis are mobile billboards, as above.

Now so far all plain n easy, gets complicated when you start to factor in multiple drivers for the same vehicle, depending on the radio company and depending in some cases whether they even know, some charge an extra 50% - 100% on the radio, the theory being that the radio company has to keep tabs on the drivers of the vehicles for the TRA and their licensing conditions for dispatch companies.

You may note so far, not one of these scenarios involves an employer/employee relationship but merely a contract to rent either radio or radio/car for a set period for a fee.

I don't honestly see why Cork and Dublin would work differently from each other, but then again you never know what the culchies get upto after dark


Edit: This does neatly bring me back to one of the earlier points of people renting out taxis and then not caring who/where and why they get driven, after all as long as they keep the records of the original renter they are in the clear even if he lends the car to his cousin's cousin's uncle's housemate's girlfriend's brother! becuse they would have fulfilled their responsibilities by just copying the original renters documents!

Spook_ie

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

oh I hear ya Steph, its tough going but we've got to keep the good side out and keep smiling, i've asked head the ball to stay home sunday to wednesday but he likes to go in and keep his cronies company on the rank in town! Better than having him under my feet i suppose! Which E class did you go for?

Hate to put a dampner on you two girlies chit chat but a forum ain't the right place!

Owen

Many taxis in Cork have been wrapped in vinyl advertising other businesses too - figures I've heard doing the rounds for the driver/owner receiving as a fee are circa 3k for the year. Surely that would take a significant portion of the overheads out of the equation?

Well down here, you can lease an entire car, have your own and pay base, drive another persons car and get paid 40% of the takings (he should then pay your stamp etc etc not do it black economy style) or drive a base car and have 40% of the takings again.

I'm not having a tiff, I was responding to someone telling me all taxi drivers in the country are self employed and that I was not speaking the truth. As I said there is life outside of Dublin.

Already in this thread a Dublin taxi driver has mentioned that he had two cars on the road, the 2nd being driven by a driver he has on the books, now that either means he is leasing out the car or he has a driver employed. My interpretation is that he has a driver employed, otherwise I would have thought he would have just said the 2nd car is leased out.

Spook_ie

RoverJames wrote: »

Well down here, you can lease an entire car, have your own and pay base, drive another persons car and get paid 40% of the takings (he should then pay your stamp etc etc not do it black economy style) or drive a base car and have 40% of the takings again.

I'm not having a tiff, I was responding to someone telling me all taxi drivers in the country are self employed and that I was not speaking the truth. As I said there is life outside of Dublin.

Already in this thread a Dublin taxi driver has mentioned that he had two cars on the road, the 2nd being driven by a driver he has on the books, now that either means he is leasing out the car or he has a driver employed. My interpretation is that he has a driver employed, otherwise I would have thought he would have just said the 2nd car is leased out.

Knowing the driver personaly, he's renting the car to the driver not employing him, and if he is employing him it isn't in a PAYE relationship, now I suppose that there could be room for some people to be renting their taxis out to people and saying "there you go, all yours for €x per week and 40% of what you make" still wouldn't be an employee, just someone paying a variable rental rate" ( more fool them then )

BTW There is still one scenario that I forgot and that's the rent to buy brigade, where to get around the transfer of licenses restriction you agree to rent the car for €100-€200 per week and after so many weeks the car and plate are yours, various restrictions depending on the license then come into play, you might get the license transfered to your name in which case it's supposed to go on a car less than 3 years old or if the license is an untransferable one you rent the license for a peppercorn rent in which case you can get it put onto any other car upto 9 years old by getting the actual plate owner to fill in the paperwork

Spook_ie

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Many taxis in Cork have been wrapped in vinyl advertising other businesses too - figures I've heard doing the rounds for the driver/owner receiving as a fee are circa 3k for the year. Surely that would take a significant portion of the overheads out of the equation?

Yep see 'em around from time to time in Dublin never heard anyone getting that much usual quotes I hear are 2K per year, which would pay the insurance.
You can find companies that advertise this advertising and they usualy charge the advertiser €3-€5K of which they pay the driver after taking the costs and their profit from it, so I don't see €3k to the driver as being realistic

Spook_ie

Just did a quick google and found that rates have dropped considerably since I last thought about doing it
http://www.taxigraphic.com/?page_id=6

So €2999 to the advertising company, would say max 2K probably less to the taxi owner

Spook_ie

Spook_ie wrote: »

Just did a quick google and found that rates have dropped considerably since I last thought about doing it
http://www.taxigraphic.com/?page_id=6

So €2999 to the advertising company, would say max 2K probably less to the taxi owner

If things were as bad as folks make them out to be, for example earning €340/60 hours work I would have thought the guts of €2000 for driving an advertisement around would be fantastic. That's 6 weeks wages.