Taxi - 9 year rule

Insurance - can be quite expensive really, a grand would be cheap.
Maintenance - minimally €500 a year if doing 20K miles I would think
Tyres - surely a set a year at least, or 2 or 3 sets of remoulds
Vehicle purchase/repayments - €50/week at least
Motor tax - only small, €70 ish I think
Vehicle testing & certification costs
Contingency for vehicle off-the-road
Cleaning
Accounting services for tax returns

mickdw

The problem I can see with some of the figures as detailed here is that a driver wouldnt work on a continuous basis for the amounts mentioned so the figures are either lies or are being based on the work rate of very lazy drivers who just do the odd pick up to make a little wage on the side.
My opinion is based on the fact that there are so many willing to get into the business and also on the fact that some drivers can go to work with €30k to €40k value cars and still presumably make it pay.
The last time I got a taxi,it was from Dublin city to Lucan & it cost about €25. God if I knew I was giving him quarter of his daily earnings for about 30/40 mins return, I would have expected him to at least have some heat on.

kona

Some taxi drivers have taken early retirement from former semi state companies, so they would have gotten a lump sum and probably a generous pension.
Im sure others have done the same from Private companies. Sometimes these lads who have all the property etc dont soley get income from the taxi.

Also who in their right mind would work for €5 a hour, I dont care if you love it leave, its that simple. Dont Taxi drivers do Acid tests etc?

HappyHouseWife

RoverJames wrote: »

Also no taxi driver will admit it on here but no way on earth is every fare through the metre.

As the wife of a taxi driver I find your comment quite derogatory.
The meter plays absolutely no part in your annual returns, a taxi driver is treated just like any other self employed person and it's all based on self assessment.
Revenue Commissioners couldn't care less what the meter reads at the end of the year. If Revenue decided to audit any self employed person all they look at is the declared income against said persons outgoings.
Your comment is just typical of the mentality out there regarding taxi drivers working off the meter.

-Chris-

Well, that's why we're looking at the sums we're being provided with. The presumption is that all journeys are on the meter and all drivers are fully tax compliant, but the figures we've been given in this thread don't seem to support a driver in any meaningful way.

This poses three questions for me:
How can the regulator impose such costs to businesspeople who are in such a low earning industry?
Why are people joining the industry, and why aren't more people getting out?
Is it possible that the figures given in this thread are incorrect, or just representative of a poor businessperson, and other drivers will be able to show greater earning potential?

Any thoughts on this?

HappyHouseWife

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

As the wife of a taxi driver I find your comment quite derogatory.
The meter plays absolutely no part in your annual returns, a taxi driver is treated just like any other self employed person and it's all based on self assessment.
Revenue Commissioners couldn't care less what the meter reads at the end of the year. If Revenue decided to audit any self employed person all they look at is the declared income against said persons outgoings.
Your comment is just typical of the mentality out there regarding taxi drivers working off the meter.

Lots of self employed people use invoices etc to justify their declared income, it seems my terminology using off metre is not accurate.
My point is that I would be surprised if any taxi driver's declared income includes all fares.

Spook_ie

-Chris- wrote: »

Very true, what other costs haven't been allowed for here?

Insurance €1300
Maintenance DIY on oil/filter garage for major bits, some bits left on the long finger like antiroll bar bushes
Tyres Usualy 2nd hand at 25/30 per wheel
Vehicle purchase/repayments None
Motor tax €90
Vehicle testing & certification costs 250
Contingency for vehicle off-the-road None because the money isn't there
Cleaning DIY or specificly slave labour of the son to get pocket money
Accounting services for tax returns Nil ROS

Anything else?

Now just to put the bit about Vehicle purchase and contingency for off the road into context, before the recession hit full on I would have put €100-€125 away a week to help cover for tax returns/maint/vehicle replacement etc. I replaced my car in July 2009 and paid cash, shade under €4k from the "contingency" fund, since then I have managed to build the contingency fund back upto a whacking total of €375 ( that's the bit thats supposed to replace my car when it gets to 9 years old!!) so go figure, in 18 months time, possibly sooner I will probably be forced onto SW simply because there isn't enough money in the game anymore to sustain it as a business

kona

Spook_ie wrote: »

Now just to put the bit about Vehicle purchase and contingency for off the road into context, before the recession hit full on I would have put €100-€125 away a week to help cover for tax returns/maint/vehicle replacement etc. I replaced my car in July 2009 and paid cash, shade under €4k from the "contingency" fund, since then I have managed to build the contingency fund back upto a whacking total of €375 ( that's the bit thats supposed to replace my car when it gets to 9 years old!!) so go figure, in 18 months time, possibly sooner I will probably be forced onto SW simply because there isn't enough money in the game anymore to sustain it as a business

Can self employed claim social welfare? Can social welfare make up the shortfall? I know lads working P/T and the Social make up the rest.

HappyHouseWife

The figures quoted above are not far from the reality of the situation at the moment, we're surviving because I work full time and I am now the chief earner in the house plus we're lucky in sofar as we're 15yrs into our mortgage etc. I can't remember the last time we went out for something to eat or a drink because we just couldn't afford to.
It is downright ignorant of people above to say "if you don't like it, get out of it and do something else" I wonder what the average age of taxi drivers is across the country, I'll bet it's in the mid forties somewhere, how much work do you reckon is in this country for people in their mid forties? (or any age group for that matter).
Someone else here said "I paid €25 from Lucan to city", that driver may not have had a job for a couple of hours before that run and quite possibly didn't do another for a couple of hours after.
I remember hubby coming in one Tuesday night after 6 hours out "working" and he'd made €17 gross! And yes, I believe him.
Times are tough for most workers at the moment but it's especially tough if you're self employed.

HappyHouseWife

kona wrote: »

Can self employed claim social welfare? Can social welfare make up the shortfall? I know lads working P/T and the Social make up the rest.

Most definitely not an option if you're self employed.

mikemac

The end of those battered early 90's Carinas and Corollas on the rank

They won't be missed

mickdw

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

As the wife of a taxi driver I find your comment quite derogatory.
The meter plays absolutely no part in your annual returns, a taxi driver is treated just like any other self employed person and it's all based on self assessment.
Revenue Commissioners couldn't care less what the meter reads at the end of the year. If Revenue decided to audit any self employed person all they look at is the declared income against said persons outgoings.
Your comment is just typical of the mentality out there regarding taxi drivers working off the meter.

Yes they look at declared income versus outgoings. I think the point being made was that there might be a certain amount of a taxi drivers income from cash sales that might not be recorded in any way whether it be meter or invoice to contract client thus the taxi driver might not include this in the declared income and it is impossible for revenue to find this. It would of course be tax fraud but Im sure some of them do this.

HappyHouseWife

RoverJames wrote: »

Lots of self employed people use invoices etc to justify their declared income, it seems my terminology using off metre is not accurate.
My point is that I would be surprised if any taxi driver's declared income includes all fares.

Again, the mentality. Of course taxi drivers (well, the one in this house anyway) declare all their income! you can't tell Revenue you're earning €200 per week if your mortgage is €205pw etc etc and that goes for all self employed people, plumbers, electricians, hairdressers etc.

HappyHouseWife

mickdw wrote: »

It would of course be tax fraud but Im sure some of them do this.

You're sure. Why? How? That's a hell of a statement.

Spook_ie

kona wrote: »

Can self employed claim social welfare? Can social welfare make up the shortfall? I know lads working P/T and the Social make up the rest.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/Pages/selfempjajb.aspx

mickdw

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

You're sure. Why? How? That's a hell of a statement.

Perhaps personal experience of a twice daily pick up price being 'adjusted' depending on paying method would be sufficient to allow me to be sure that some do it.

nightster1

Why is this 9 year rule limited to Taxi/Hackneys? What about the buses, there are plenty of old well kept buses on the road from the 80's and 90's. Good maintenance and they'll drive on for yonks.

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

Yes they look at declared income versus outgoings. I think the point being made was that there might be a certain amount of a taxi drivers income from cash sales that might not be recorded in any way whether it be meter or invoice to contract client thus the taxi driver might not include this in the declared income and it is impossible for revenue to find this. It would of course be tax fraud but Im sure some of them do this.

There are not many jobs that wouldn't present some way of doing work without it having to go through the books, whether that be a GS workin' the door of CFJs or a GP filling in passport applications, that doesn't mean they are tax evading just that they have the opportunity of doing so, much the same as taxi drivers, so I'm pretty sure that what ever job you do that there is tax eveaion going on there as well, so your point is?

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

Perhaps personal experience of a twice daily pick up price being 'adjusted' depending on paying method would be sufficient to allow me to be sure that some do it.

Hmmm more detail, but if it's a cab company they often charge the customer for the use of credit facilities, which doesn't go to the driver, infact most cab companies deduct 10-20% from account work to cover "costs" before paying it out to the driver

mickdw

My point is basically that it is to be expected that some will have additional cash income apart from what is being shown as income and yes, it sure goes on in every job

HappyHouseWife

mickdw wrote: »

Perhaps personal experience of a twice daily pick up price being 'adjusted' depending on paying method would be sufficient to allow me to be sure that some do it.

With all due respect, you're talking rubbish. A driver giving a discount on an individual job has absolutely no bearing on his yearly declaration. This isn't the US where drivers MUST pay a percentage of the metered total to the cab company/owner so therefore it'd be in the drivers interest not to operate the meter.

All taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as "self employed" and it is their declaration which matters, no one elses.

HappyHouseWife

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

This isn't the US where drivers MUST pay a percentage of the metered total to the cab company/owner so therefore it'd be in the drivers interest not to operate the meter.

All taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as "self employed" and it is their declaration which matters, no one elses.

I love how folks think that, in Cork many drivers employ a 2nd driver, many bases own some cars and employ drivers to drive them. These people are employees so not ALL taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as self employed, and that is FACT. Also the deal is the driver gets paid 40% of what he takes in so it would be in their interest to run off metre if they were so inclined

There is life outside of Leinster

So, you are talking rubbish.

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

My point is basically that it is to be expected that some will have additional cash income apart from what is being shown as income and yes, it sure goes on in every job

So we concur then that probably 99% of the population has the chance of evading some tax in one way or another, so why bring it into the equation?
It is a matter of social consience as to whether people deliberately under declare income whether it be by cash in hand or BIK, as housewife said it's what is declared not whats on the meter, otherwise how do you think all these drivers giving 20% off meter rates (82020 etc.) are going to consolidate there income to the meter?

I should really have been a barrister :pac:

mickdw

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

With all due respect, you're talking rubbish. A driver giving a discount on an individual job has absolutely no bearing on his yearly declaration. This isn't the US where drivers MUST pay a percentage of the metered total to the cab company/owner so therefore it'd be in the drivers interest not to operate the meter.

All taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as "self employed" and it is their declaration which matters, no one elses.

You are being silly now.

So if I pay by cash & need a receipt, its €x amount but if I pay by cash without need for receipt, its €x - 10%. So you are telling me that the job without receipt & discounted is still being recorded in the office & returned at year end to revenue.
To believe that this happens is naive.

HappyHouseWife

RoverJames wrote: »

I love how folks think that, in Cork many drivers employ a 2nd driver, many bases own some cars and employ drivers to drive them. These people are employees so not ALL taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as self employed, and that is FACT. Also the deal is the driver gets paid 40% of what he takes in so it would be in their interest to run off metre if they were so inclined

There is life outside of Leinster

So, you are talking rubbish.

Name the company James, I've a few relations in Cork city around the Lough and Horgan's Buildings and another lot out in Cobh, three of 'em drive cabs. The days of a 2nd driver on a car (or "Cosy" as they were known) are pretty much over and even when Cosy's existed, all they did was pay a fixed amount (called "freight") for the car, owner of car never got a cut of the takings.
I've been married to a driver for 16 yrs, I'd reckon I know a fair bit about the industry.

Spook_ie

RoverJames wrote: »

I love how folks think that, in Cork many drivers employ a 2nd driver, many bases own some cars and employ drivers to drive them. These people are employees so not ALL taxi drivers in Ireland are treated as self employed, and that is FACT. Also the deal is the driver gets paid 40% of what he takes in so it would be in their interest to run off metre if they were so inclined

There is life outside of Leinster

So, you are talking rubbish.

Sorry to be pedantic but seeing as you think you should have been a barrister, none of them are per se employees, they would still classify as self employed as they are not subject to PAYE but instead are subject to self assesment, the problem comes, as stated by myself earlier, when they operate below the radar and neither revenue or SW know they are doing it. I could in theory throw my plate in the canal and rent a taxi from my mate for 8 hours a day and no-one would be any the wiser

HappyHouseWife

mickdw wrote: »

You are being silly now.

So if I pay by cash & need a receipt, its €x amount but if I pay by cash without need for receipt, its €x - 10%. So you are telling me that the job without receipt & discounted is still being recorded in the office & returned at year end to revenue.
To believe that this happens is naive.

Recorded in what office??? Cab companies don't keep records of what an individual earns. If a driver picks up an "account" customer and that customer chooses to pay cash rather than on put it on account, that is perfectly legal and absolutely no business of anybody except the driver and the passenger.
I will reiterate, a discount given on an individual job means nothing. a driver does not "hand in" anything to Revenue at the end of the year. All that person does is tell Revenue how much he/she earned and what expenses he/she incurred during that year and it wouldn't matter if driver gave a 50% on every job tru the year.

Zubeneschamali

mickdw wrote: »

Perhaps personal experience of a twice daily pick up price being 'adjusted' depending on paying method would be sufficient to allow me to be sure that some do it.

If ardle1's figures were accurate, they might as well declare it all as they aren't earning enough to have to pay any tax anyhow.

Which makes me think the real figures are 3 or 4 or times what ardle1 claims.

HappyHouseWife

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Name the company James, I've a few relations in Cork city around the Lough and Horgan's Buildings and another lot out in Cobh, three of 'em drive cabs. The days of a 2nd driver on a car (or "Cosy" as they were known) are pretty much over and even when Cosy's existed, all they did was pay a fixed amount (called "freight") for the car, owner of car never got a cut of the takings.
I've been married to a driver for 16 yrs, I'd reckon I know a fair bit about the industry.

Oh the irony, I'm from the Lough myself, my Dad drove Taxi's for years, he was employed by a self employed taxi driver, it was all above board, Dad received a different wage every week depending on what he took it. He used to earn a % of what he took in. He was an employee, he had his tax free allowance split between his pension and the taxi job.

You know little about the situation in Cork, the 60/40% arrangment between owner and driver appears to be unheard of in Dublin.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic but seeing as you think you should have been a barrister, none of them are per se employees, they would still classify as self employed as they are not subject to PAYE but instead are subject to self assesment, the problem comes, as stated by myself earlier, when they operate below the radar and neither revenue or SW know they are doing it. I could in theory throw my plate in the canal and rent a taxi from my mate for 8 hours a day and no-one would be any the wiser

He was an employee.