DTT Radio channels gone from Philips PFL8664H

P.lane78

Norway is the same im afraid.....Please Philips help us out here. its Christmas:(

mickeyboymel

mickeyboymel wrote: »

Its hard to say.....they seem unwilling to do anything until the official launch but are not by any means ruling out a software update just not until after the service exists officially.

It's frustrating but I can somewhat see where they're coming from. For example, many software vendors refused to support Windows 7 when in beta (or any beta Windows for that matter). They waited for the official launch to support the system. Saorview is still going through changes and occasional transmitter outages so it still feels like a test to me.

But it would be unacceptable for Philips to pull a Panasonic and wash their hands of it entirely. Lets just hope they come to their senses.

watty

The spec hasn't changed in last two years and it sort of launched Nov 2010. Other Set makers have been getting it right for some time.

watty

watty wrote: »

The spec hasn't changed in last two years and it sort of launched Nov 2010. Other Set makers have been getting it right for some time.

That is correct, though I wonder what the actual cause of this problem is? The Panasonics were fairly open and shut, a change in the service type, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

STB

TS streams time

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

TS streams time

I can analyse and publish the SI data in xml format if it helps anyone (I published the EIT data for watty a week or two back when there was a query about the format of the EPG info).

Thing is I can't see anything in relation to the radio channels which would indicate that they have been changed. It's a bit like the problem with the Panasonic default sound on TV3 and TG4 reverting to "nar" instead of "eng", even though RTE One and Two have the same layout in the SI tables and they work ok.

fat-tony

Here's a start - the PAT, NIT and SDT PIDs dumped in XML format and renamed as .txt files:

Sponge Bob

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

STB

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

This would not affect radio channel reception. I have wondered for some time whether the root of problems with narrative audio default selection on dvb-t channels is non compliance with ISO 639. The main audio stream is defined in the PID/Descriptor 0x00 and is usually labelled undefined or normal). ie the pani problem for no sound and nar default on certain stations in the bouquet.

The storing and locating of radio and TV serrvices in a scan is a mish mash of PAT, PMT and NIT tables. Its not finding the channel entry in the PAT, so it cant get the PID.

fat-tony

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

I'm not sure when they started using "iri", but I definitely recall "gle" being used in the past. Either way it shouldn't (theoretically) cause a problem, as the receiver should just use the preferred language first and, if not present, should use the order in the tables.

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

The storing and locating of radio and TV serrvices in a scan is a mish mash of PAT, PMT and NIT tables. Its not finding the channel entry in the PAT, so it cant get the PID.

I had a look through the PAT data and all the TV and radio PIDs seem to be present. It's odd that the Philips is finding all the entries when set to Ireland (but not displaying the channel names properly) and only finding the TV entries when set to UK

Sam Russell

According to the Nordig spec the Irish language is either 'iri' or 'gle'. 'eng' is english.

fat-tony

Unfortunately, the Nordig spec. is not the authoritative source for ISO 639 codes;)

Irish is allocated "gle" under 639-3 or "ga" under 639-1.

"iri" is/was allocated to Irigwe - can't find it at the source - http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

Sam Russell

fat-tony wrote: »

Unfortunately, the Nordig spec. is not the authoritative source for ISO 639 codes;)

Irish is allocated "gle" under 639-3 or "ga" under 639-1.

But Nordig is the authoritive source for Saorview.

fat-tony

But they still can't make up language codes that fall under ISO standardisation - that way lies madness:D

Sponge Bob

They made nothing up ...and they checked even less Tony

IRI is the ISO 639-3 Language Code for a tribal language from central Nigerian named Irigwe and not Irish, no matter what Nordig say.

Any Firmware that loads an expected language set(s) based on its Setup location is entitled to be a tad useless if it finds Nigerian Minority Language indentifier codes in the PAT data for a European country. Most unexpected.

Even in the late 1990s MPEG2 standard the 3 Letter codes were required NOT the two letter codes ( ga in our case) from the much older 639-1 standard. In fact "gle" was in the late 1990s 639-2 standard as well as the later 639-3 standard where "iri" was allocated to Irigwe.

I take it that the reason Nordig uses 639-3 is related to minority scandinavian languages with 639-3 codes but no 639-2 version.

However RTE should have spotted this themselves. Gobsh1tes

See

http://broadcasting.ru/pdf-standard-specifications/multiplexing/dvb-si/en300468.v1.5.1.pdf ( page 34)

"ISO_639_language_code: This 24-bit field identifies the language of the component (in the case of audio or EBU-data)
and of the text description which may be contained in this descriptor. The ISO_639_language_code contains a
3-character code as specified by ISO 639-2 [3]. Both ISO 639-2/B and ISO 639-2/T may be used. Each character is
coded into 8 bits according to ISO/IEC 8859-1 [5] and inserted in order into the 24-bit field.
EXAMPLE: French has 3-character code "fre", which is coded as:
"0110 0110 0111 0010 0110 0101"."

fat-tony

"iri" is in the current set of 693-3 (three char codes) and is allocated to Irigwe as you say. The earlier versions of 693 should have been used by Nordig and "gle" should have been specified. Just sloppy drafting in the spec by Nordig.

fat-tony

Anyway, here is the remainder of the SI tables (I've trimmed the EIT down to almost 700k to fit the fle upload restrictions - it was over 2 MB which held the entire 7 day EPG). The TDT and TOT tables hold a timestamp and the offset from UTC and date of next change of time.

Sponge Bob

fat-tony wrote: »

"iri" is in the current set of 693-3 (three char codes) and is allocated to Irigwe as you say. The earlier versions of 693 should have been used by Nordig and "gle" should have been specified. Just sloppy drafting in the spec by Nordig.

The earlier version was 639-2 and did not assign iri at all. Irish was gle in that one as well.

It was ga in 639-1

I suspect that 639-3 was SPECIFIED by Nordig over earlier versions so that they could granularise stream data for minirity NORDIC languages that originally had no 639-2 code, eg Kven Finnish "fkv" , see

I have no issue with the use of 639-3 in preference to 639-1 or 639-2 save that Irigwe is assigned the iri code and we should always use gle .

Irigwe does not even have an alphabet

Sam Russell

What has any of this to do with Philips not getting radio channels? 'iri' or 'gle'? Nigerian scams? Nowegian minority languages?

It did work, now it does not. We are no nearer finding out why.

fat-tony

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Irigwe does not even have an alphabet

A tad difficult for subtitles and teletext, then:D

fat-tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

What has any of this to do with Philips not getting radio channels? 'iri' or 'gle'? Nigerian scams? Nowegian minority languages?

It did work, now it does not. We are no nearer finding out why.

Yeh - it was a diversion - couldn't understand at all why language setting would knock off radio reception. Much like why some Panasonic models are transposing "eng" and "nar" streams, but only on certain channels. Anyway, STB is on the case - analysing SI stream dumps that I have posted!

Sam Russell

fat-tony wrote: »

A tad difficult for subtitles and teletext, then:D

We are talking about radio!:D:D

fat-tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

We are talking about radio!:D:D

Yes I know - but "iri" is set on Saorview as the ISO 639 language code in TG4 also;)
Strangely enough (or not) the language code used on TG4 and RnaG on the channels carried on the Astra satellite is - wait for it - "eng":rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Actually, on SC4 when the rugby is playing and they have commentary on in English and Welsh, they are labelled the wrong way round. Curious.

STB

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually, on SC4 when the rugby is playing and they have commentary on in English and Welsh, they are labelled the wrong way round. Curious.

Because the default is English!

Welsh people were not impressed that STBs gave it priority so they reversed the labelling of language streams. Welsh is labelled English and vice versa.

On the Phillips issue its not clear what the problem is that I can see. If it was a dodgy country availability descriptor seeing IRE when set to Uk mode and deciding that it wont add them as a result that would be a reasonable explanation. But its tuning the Tv services. Where the radio services have gone is anyones guess. Its not in the TV channels by any chance ? More and more I think about it, it sounds like a specific software bug with Phillips.

The ultimate fix for this is of course to allow on board MHEG5 engine software usage in the Irish profile.

Richersounds.ie: Ashley

Hi Folks

Strange this..

I have just check out a few of our TV's in store -

a 26PFL3405H tune in yesterday and i get the RTE radio stations and can check the EPG for them as well,

a 42PFL5405H same as above (tuned in last month)

and finally a 46PFL8605H all RTE radio stations present and correct.

As its Silly Season, sorry, Christmas time, Philips HQ have shut down so it will be the New Year before we can chase this up for you.

It maybe TV model or indeed location specific.

Sorry not of more help folks.

Happy Christmas
Ash

STB

Ash

The problem only exists when sets are set to UK to avail of MHEG5 which is not available in Irish Country setup. Its a sideways shortcut to compliance for those that know its in UK profile.

Did you test it with Ireland as Country ? presumably so.

This is a scenario of people setting to UK to be compliant with MHEG5 as the set doesnt turn on the MHEG5 engine with Ireland set as the host country. A lot of manufacturers think that MHEG5 is exclusively used in UK within Europe. As a result MHP (another EPG engine) is turned on by default for any country other than UK.

The ultimate fix for this is of course to allow on board MHEG5 engine software usage in the Irish profile. Most people will just set the country to Ireland and will have then have MHEG5 automatically. As you can see as people are using UK setup shortcut to MHEG this in turn is causing headaches for other issues being raised (UK profile probable adheres to UK Dbook rather than ETSI standards). Perhaps yourself or John Mc could suggest as much to Phillips ?

At least then Phillips 2009/10 products whilst not certified would be compliant with both MPEG4 and MHEG5. And good for Phillips name and sales in Ireland.

Sponge Bob

Having done a smidge moe research it appears that this "iri" issue is entirely the fault of some slob in RTENL who misconfigured something at the head end.

http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

page 19

Language Code Code To native Comments
English eng eng English Mandatory
Finnish fin fin suomi Mandatory
French fre fra francais Recommended
Irish / Gaelic gle gle Gaeilge Mandatory

blueflag

Thanks for all your posts. Still waiting reply from RTENL to my email.