DTT Radio channels gone from Philips PFL8664H

blueflag

All DTT radio channels disappeared suddenly. A rescan (UK setting) only shows 7 DTT TV channels. A rescan using Ireland setting brings in all DTT TV +Radio channels. All however are showing on Samsung LE22B450C4W (UK setting). Please can anyone explain?

mickeyboymel

Same here on both my Philips (32PFL5405H/05 & 32PFL5604H/12) No Radio Stations

Ronan Raver77

I just got the one for all Aerial and hooked it up to my tv and only got the 7 tv stations and no radio aswell..Here was me thinking i did something wrong.My tv is Philips 32PFL5405.

Sponge Bob

I suspect the Radio stations are no longer broadcasting in MPEG2 or else that some broadcast identifier flag a la the Panasonic 0x1 / 0x16 issue is not implemented on Phillips. Lets see what happens with Panasonics later today and indeed with other models.

At least there is some chance of firmware from Phillips.

watty

The Radio can only be in MP2 or HE-AAC.

MP2 is part of MPEG2 spec and is also used by DAB

varous AAC flavours are part of MPEG4 spec. AAC+ aka HE-AAC stereo is also used by DAB+ and allows about 1/2 the bit rate (more space), or more quality at same bitrate.

With 17 channels of audio the saving would be nearly enough for a TV channel, or improve picture quality on existing channels.

The Cush

No problems here with a 2008 V4500 and 2009 W5810 Sony TVs.

blueflag

Have emailed Philips asking when a firmware update will be available for Ireland setting. Awaiting reply.

mickeyboymel

As I said on another thread, I had two support cases open with Philips for both my sets and the outcome was that they had no plans to release any updates to the sets at any time to address the Ireland settings or to make the sets Saorview Complient.

Allbeit this was before Saorview had officially launched. The Technical staff at Philips (In London) were very helpful and also extremely knowledgeable regarding Ireland and indeed had actually heard of Saorview which was somewhat comforting.

So perhaps now that the service is up and running they may write some software similiar to what they have done in the past when problems appeared in other areas:

Software history
The latest software solves the issues below:
NOTE: Each release contains all solutions identified in the earlier version.
Q5521_0.140.25.0 (Date published: 2010-11-18)
• TV will not display the subtitles when Danish menu language is selected.
• TV has no picture after it wake-up from standby if the TV was in HDMI source before the TV is
switched to standby.
• TV turns on by itself from standby.
• TV will not go into standby after 10 minutes when the TV does not receive any signal.
• TV has no picture after switching between channels from ZIGGO network.
Q5521_0.140.23.0 (Date published: 2010-10-28)
• Unable to view Teletext and/or subtitles are missing on certain channels. (Only applicable to
country, Finland)
• TV goes into standby by itself after 2 to 3 hours of operation.
• TV does not display the video in its native format through USB.
• Picture judders while watching digital channels.
• Picture judders during playback via USB.
Q5521_0.140.11.0 (Date published: 2010-10-14)
• Blur picture with vertical lines observed.
• Improve picture performance on analog channels.
• The channel display sequence in the EPG does not match with the preset list in the channel
grid. (Only applicable to country, Germany)
• Picture flickers after TV starts up.
• TV has no sound while watching digital (DVB-T) channels. (Only applicable to country,
Spain)
Q5521_0.75.60.1 (Date published: 2010-09-16)
• With this software your TV is ZIGGO certified.
Q5521_0.75.59.0 (Date published: 2010-08-31)
• Teletext clock on digital cable (DVB-C) channels is not updated; and an error message "No
Teletext available" appears on screen even with the Teletext page displayed. (Only
applicable to country, Netherlands)
• Unable to display the Common Interface menu after TV receives a CAM upgrade.
• No Teletext available on digital (DVB-T) channels after TV starts up from standby mode.
• The first digital cable (DVB-C) channel is stored at preset 2 instead of preset 1 after channel
search. (Only applicable to country, Germany)
• Video stuttering and video delay (lipsync issue) observed when you perform fast forward,
fast rewind, pause, jump to previous/next frame, etc. during MPEG4 and MKV video file
payback from the USB memory device.
Q5521_0. 75.13.54 (Date published: 2010-06-25)
• TV operation becomes extremely slow after you change the audio language in the Option
menu during DVB-C reception.
• When you change between channels with different audio formats on a certain Set-Top
Boxes connected via HDMI, you will experience intermittent audio loss.
• The ‘Unhide All’ option in the Option menu does not unhide channels in the channel grid.
(Only applicable to Country, Germany)
Q5521_0. 75.13.43 (Date published: 2010-06-09)
• The ‘Teletext’ option in the TV menu is changed to "Text".
• Random audio & video lost can be observed when you switch between pay
channels/services.
• The picture files cannot be open anymore after you have open several picture files in different
folders on an external hard drive.
• When you perform fast forward, fast rewind, pause, jump to previous/next frame etc, during
MPEG4 video file playback from the USB memory device, the video/audio will stop working.
• The red button on the remote control does not work on MHEG channel. (Only applicable to
Country, UK.)
• When you perform a fast forward on the video file stored on the USB memory device then
press the OK button to resume the normal playback, the video will restart from the beginning.
• The subtitle is not displayed after you have switched channels or services even when you
have initially set the subtitle to ON mode.
Q5521_0. 72.24.0 (Date published: 2010-05-05)
• There is slight jerking/juddering of the OSD when you switch between TV or AV channel and
VGA input.
• Subtitle is not displayed when you view pay channels/services. (Only applicable to Country,
Sweden.)
Q5521_0. 72.20.0 (Date published: 2010-04-19)
• Subtitle language selection is not working correctly for certain channels with teletext subtitle.
• The Electronic program guide (EPG) does not display all the scheduling programs.
Q5521_0. 72.16.0 (Date published: 2010-04-08)
• No picture or randomly picture lost when you playback the video content from a VHS-VCR
through Scart connection.
• The analogue channels are losing sound when you switch the TV off and on rapidly with the
power switch.
• HDMI audio lost after you change the video format on the source device.
• Software upgrade via USB does not start automatically.
Q5521_0. 72.6.0 (Date published: 2010-03-29)
• No channels found after channel installation.
• Video & audio lost when you switch between scrambled channels.
• TV hang-up during first time/virgin mode installation.
• Garbage characters seen on the E-sticker (logo banner), a feature uses by the dealer on the
shop floor.
• Duplicate channels after channel installation, which results in wrong preset/position in the
channel list. (Applicable for Germany KBW network.)
• The analogue channels display a noisy picture when you switch the TV off and on rapidly with
the power switch.
Q5521_0. 58.8.0 (Date published: 2010-03-03)
• Initial production software.

Sponge Bob

First thing to do is find out what RTENL changed in the past while to 'disappear' the radio stations so email RTENL .

bjp1967

mickeyboymel wrote: »

Same here on both my Philips (32PFL5405H/05 & 32PFL5604H/12) No Radio Stations

I have Philips 42PFL5604H/12, but still have all stations as normal,

fat-tony

Sponge Bob wrote: »

First thing to do is find out what RTENL changed in the past while to 'disappear' the radio stations so email RTENL .

I can't see anything obvious on a scan with Transedit (DVBviewer add-on) - radio channels set as 0x02 - Digital Radio Sound with Stream Type 0x04 - MPEG Audio. Unfortunately I don't have an earlier scan saved to compare with. Certainly none of the PIDs have changed. The RTT Two temporary channel is now just called "Temporary" - no other changes noted.

blueflag

Have emailed RTENL.

P.lane78

Same story on my Philips 32PFL5604H/12. Everything worked fine on the UK setting. Like the rest of the posters the TV channels are fine but I lost the radio stations. When I changed back to Irish region setting all the radio stations are back but the EPG is missing and the channel and radio station names are gone (Presumably MHEG not set up in Firmware for Ireland)

So from experience how prompt are Philips at getting updates out in the field.
Hopefully well before the April launch

P.lane78

blueflag

Reply from Philips suggesting options of 1. contacting RTE, 2. to consider the use of an external device and 3. as there is no software available at the moment to resolve the issues, to keep checking for updates. No commitment given as to when or if any appropriate software would ever become available.

STB

There is a recent firmware update to sort a HDMI sound problem.

I wonder if its a related problem.

Humor me, try first to connect headphones to the monitor.

Sponge Bob

If you tell Phillips that you will be returning their box for the full refund under the Irish Sale of Goods act they might cop themselves onto the mess they are creating for their Irish retailers by not fixing the firmware.

2 Key items are

1. The radio 'disappearing' probably a 'new' difference between UK and Irish PIDs, if you choose county = Ireland does the radio come back ...even if you lose MHEG5 ???
2. MHEG5 not supported in Irish country profiles.

And tell them Boards are watching them CLOSELY and would rather not declare them crap like Panasonic

Other than that there ain't much wrong with Phillips, they do have all the necessary bits built in but their firmware does not know when to turn the features on.

mickeyboymel

Just been on the phone to (UK Based) support who are still of the opinion that the Saroview service is just a test and officially does not exist so they will not be considering any software updates, at least until the service is officially launched, if it does indeed launch - their words not mine!

I gave him the link for Nordig but he said the engineers are fully aware of the minimum specs etc but there will be NOTHING done regarding software until after launch.

Actually when you think of it, it is still testing as the radio stations disappeared only lately and well after the 29 October soft launch.

Apogee

mickeyboymel wrote: »

I gave him the link for Nordig but he said the engineers are fully aware of the minimum specs etc but there will be NOTHING done regarding software until after launch.

So anyone who comes asking for suggestions on this board should be recommended to avoid both Panasonic and Philips TVs from now on. If they can't be bothered treating their customers fairly, why should we send business their way?

mickeyboymel

Its hard to say.....they seem unwilling to do anything until the official launch but are not by any means ruling out a software update just not until after the service exists officially.

Apogee

The Saorview spec has been published with a number of years. Their TVs are not compliant with the spec. Case closed. And I speak as someone who owns a Philips. Nothing like a fall in sales to concentrate minds.

blueflag

Sponge Bob, to answer your question, UK setting means all TV channels, all named, MHEG5, and programme guide. No radio channels.
Ireland setting means ALL TV and Radio channels, none of them named ,no MHEG5, no programme guide. Seems like something that could be easily rectified by Philips but the will to do so is not there at the moment.

PressTheButton

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I suspect the Radio stations are no longer broadcasting in MPEG2 or else that some broadcast identifier flag a la the Panasonic 0x1 / 0x16 issue is not implemented on Phillips. Lets see what happens with Panasonics later today and indeed with other models.

At least there is some chance of firmware from Phillips.

Just did rescan Channel 54/738 MHz (Three Rock) on Panasonic TH-42PZ81B. Still receiving all ten RTE Radio services. Lost DTT TV stations in November after rescan.

PressTheButton

Ronan Devitt wrote: »

I just got the one for all Aerial and hooked it up to my tv and only got the 7 tv stations and no radio aswell..Here was me thinking i did something wrong.My tv is Philips 32PFL5405.

Just did rescan Channel 54/738 MHz (Three Rock) on Philips 190TW9FB/00 (19" DVB-T TV/Monitor). Country set: UK. Still receiving all ten RTE Radio services. Receives all Irish DTT TV stations sound only/no picture. Receives RTE AERTEL digital teletext but part of screen where current TV channel would appear is black. Receives regular analogue teletext.

fat-tony

PressTheButton wrote: »

Just did rescan Channel 54/738 MHz (Three Rock) on Philips 190TW9FB/00 (19" DVB-T TV/Monitor). Country set: UK. Still receiving all ten RTE Radio services. Receives all Irish DTT TV stations sound only/no picture. Receives RTE AERTEL digital teletext but part of screen where current TV channel would appear is black. Receives regular analogue teletext.

That's an MPEG-2 TV - won't receive Saorview MPEG-4 compressed video.

PressTheButton

fat-tony wrote: »

That's an MPEG-2 TV - won't receive Saorview MPEG-4 compressed video.

Tell me about it! Just contributed findings to add to pool of knowledge, in particular OP's question re radio stations/Philips TV. Great resource 'boards.ie', your own posts ( & others - everyone knows who they are) in particular. What a pity some big brand TV manufacturers don't supply this basic product information (MPEG-2/MPEG-4...) on their websites, brochures or manuals.

P.lane78

Well it looks like a firmware upgrade post DTT launch so......in relation to Philips overall I think they are poor. I have a 32 inch Philips Lcd for 5 weeks. After two weeks the first one died - power issue.It was replaced,Now this firmware issue. I am thinking of sending it back because Harvey Norman distinctly sold it to me as Saorview compatible. I also bought two Philips blueray players which experience various freezing and reboot issues. Not Happy to say the least!!!:mad:

fat-tony

I'm finding this whole thread rather confusing I am familiar with the issues that Panasonic TV owners have been having with the flagging of the TV services which result in their sets not including TV services when they do a scan. The problem with Philips sets now not including radio services when set to UK or GB is very puzzling as I can't see any difference in the coding of radio channels from their previous settings. The radio service is pretty basic in terms of MPEG settings so any MPEG-2 receiver should work. Although when (if) RTENL change the encoding of audio from MP2 to AAC, this will cause further issues with non-compliant sets, I can't see any setting like this in the data streams at the moment.
There may be an issue further up in the hierarchy of DVB-T tables (at BAT or NIT level) which is causing the radio channels to be skipped, but I've not seen a plausible explanation yet.

Mr McBoatface

Has anybody tried scanning with the TV setup for France or Solvenia ?

They are using MPEG4/DVB-T, but no MHEG5 so there will be no fancy Saorview text/epg but the TV's build in DVB-EPG should still work fine. You should also be able to set English as On Screen Display lanauge of choice.

I just checked the audio on the radio channels and it has not changed format to AAC so it must be a flag change in the dvb stream.

P.lane78

Yep I tried france, finland and sweden I think. Same story on all settings, 7 channels but no radio stations. I will try Slovenia now and get back to ye.

P.lane78

same with sSovenia........

Sponge Bob

Last chance, Norway. Norway is going all HD next year , Phillips do release Firmware for Norwegian problems though

P.lane78

Norway is the same im afraid.....Please Philips help us out here. its Christmas:(

mickeyboymel

mickeyboymel wrote: »

Its hard to say.....they seem unwilling to do anything until the official launch but are not by any means ruling out a software update just not until after the service exists officially.

It's frustrating but I can somewhat see where they're coming from. For example, many software vendors refused to support Windows 7 when in beta (or any beta Windows for that matter). They waited for the official launch to support the system. Saorview is still going through changes and occasional transmitter outages so it still feels like a test to me.

But it would be unacceptable for Philips to pull a Panasonic and wash their hands of it entirely. Lets just hope they come to their senses.

watty

The spec hasn't changed in last two years and it sort of launched Nov 2010. Other Set makers have been getting it right for some time.

watty

watty wrote: »

The spec hasn't changed in last two years and it sort of launched Nov 2010. Other Set makers have been getting it right for some time.

That is correct, though I wonder what the actual cause of this problem is? The Panasonics were fairly open and shut, a change in the service type, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

STB

TS streams time

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

TS streams time

I can analyse and publish the SI data in xml format if it helps anyone (I published the EIT data for watty a week or two back when there was a query about the format of the EPG info).

Thing is I can't see anything in relation to the radio channels which would indicate that they have been changed. It's a bit like the problem with the Panasonic default sound on TV3 and TG4 reverting to "nar" instead of "eng", even though RTE One and Two have the same layout in the SI tables and they work ok.

fat-tony

Here's a start - the PAT, NIT and SDT PIDs dumped in XML format and renamed as .txt files:

Sponge Bob

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

STB

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

This would not affect radio channel reception. I have wondered for some time whether the root of problems with narrative audio default selection on dvb-t channels is non compliance with ISO 639. The main audio stream is defined in the PID/Descriptor 0x00 and is usually labelled undefined or normal). ie the pani problem for no sound and nar default on certain stations in the bouquet.

The storing and locating of radio and TV serrvices in a scan is a mish mash of PAT, PMT and NIT tables. Its not finding the channel entry in the PAT, so it cant get the PID.

fat-tony

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now I am confused, I see 3 letter language codes and I was sure the ISO 639-3 language code for Irish was gle not iri and the 639-1 version of same is ga

iri = Iregwe, a Nigerian language

I'm not sure when they started using "iri", but I definitely recall "gle" being used in the past. Either way it shouldn't (theoretically) cause a problem, as the receiver should just use the preferred language first and, if not present, should use the order in the tables.

fat-tony

STB wrote: »

The storing and locating of radio and TV serrvices in a scan is a mish mash of PAT, PMT and NIT tables. Its not finding the channel entry in the PAT, so it cant get the PID.

I had a look through the PAT data and all the TV and radio PIDs seem to be present. It's odd that the Philips is finding all the entries when set to Ireland (but not displaying the channel names properly) and only finding the TV entries when set to UK

Sam Russell

According to the Nordig spec the Irish language is either 'iri' or 'gle'. 'eng' is english.

fat-tony

Unfortunately, the Nordig spec. is not the authoritative source for ISO 639 codes;)

Irish is allocated "gle" under 639-3 or "ga" under 639-1.

"iri" is/was allocated to Irigwe - can't find it at the source - http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

Sam Russell

fat-tony wrote: »

Unfortunately, the Nordig spec. is not the authoritative source for ISO 639 codes;)

Irish is allocated "gle" under 639-3 or "ga" under 639-1.

But Nordig is the authoritive source for Saorview.

fat-tony

But they still can't make up language codes that fall under ISO standardisation - that way lies madness:D

Sponge Bob

They made nothing up ...and they checked even less Tony

IRI is the ISO 639-3 Language Code for a tribal language from central Nigerian named Irigwe and not Irish, no matter what Nordig say.

Any Firmware that loads an expected language set(s) based on its Setup location is entitled to be a tad useless if it finds Nigerian Minority Language indentifier codes in the PAT data for a European country. Most unexpected.

Even in the late 1990s MPEG2 standard the 3 Letter codes were required NOT the two letter codes ( ga in our case) from the much older 639-1 standard. In fact "gle" was in the late 1990s 639-2 standard as well as the later 639-3 standard where "iri" was allocated to Irigwe.

I take it that the reason Nordig uses 639-3 is related to minority scandinavian languages with 639-3 codes but no 639-2 version.

However RTE should have spotted this themselves. Gobsh1tes

See

http://broadcasting.ru/pdf-standard-specifications/multiplexing/dvb-si/en300468.v1.5.1.pdf ( page 34)

"ISO_639_language_code: This 24-bit field identifies the language of the component (in the case of audio or EBU-data)
and of the text description which may be contained in this descriptor. The ISO_639_language_code contains a
3-character code as specified by ISO 639-2 [3]. Both ISO 639-2/B and ISO 639-2/T may be used. Each character is
coded into 8 bits according to ISO/IEC 8859-1 [5] and inserted in order into the 24-bit field.
EXAMPLE: French has 3-character code "fre", which is coded as:
"0110 0110 0111 0010 0110 0101"."

fat-tony

"iri" is in the current set of 693-3 (three char codes) and is allocated to Irigwe as you say. The earlier versions of 693 should have been used by Nordig and "gle" should have been specified. Just sloppy drafting in the spec by Nordig.

fat-tony

Anyway, here is the remainder of the SI tables (I've trimmed the EIT down to almost 700k to fit the fle upload restrictions - it was over 2 MB which held the entire 7 day EPG). The TDT and TOT tables hold a timestamp and the offset from UTC and date of next change of time.

Sponge Bob

fat-tony wrote: »

"iri" is in the current set of 693-3 (three char codes) and is allocated to Irigwe as you say. The earlier versions of 693 should have been used by Nordig and "gle" should have been specified. Just sloppy drafting in the spec by Nordig.

The earlier version was 639-2 and did not assign iri at all. Irish was gle in that one as well.

It was ga in 639-1

I suspect that 639-3 was SPECIFIED by Nordig over earlier versions so that they could granularise stream data for minirity NORDIC languages that originally had no 639-2 code, eg Kven Finnish "fkv" , see

I have no issue with the use of 639-3 in preference to 639-1 or 639-2 save that Irigwe is assigned the iri code and we should always use gle .

Irigwe does not even have an alphabet

Sam Russell

What has any of this to do with Philips not getting radio channels? 'iri' or 'gle'? Nigerian scams? Nowegian minority languages?

It did work, now it does not. We are no nearer finding out why.