ECHR rules Irish human rights violated by abortion ban

caseyann

I have a theory crazy as it may seem :eek: instead of wanting to allow abortion in the country, (except in cases of rape molestation or danger to parent). Lets just ensure everyone wears a condom or on the pill.Or else here is something wild ensure that teenage boys dont feel pressured they need to have sex to be the man with their mates or teenage girls dont feel pressured to have sex to be accepted by a boy :rolleyes:
And parents take responsibility for their kids :eek:

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That wasn't my point and you know it. There isn't the adoption utopia you seem to be attempting to peddle.

So they are better off dead then?

So a child that has been conceived is not given the right to live? Only one that has implanted? Murderer!!

Didn't say I liked it, or am comfortable with it, but that would be as far down that road as I would be willing to go. Thats my compromise.

The_Morrigan

caseyann wrote: »

I have a theory crazy as it may seem :eek: instead of wanting to allow abortion in the country, (except in cases of rape molestation or danger to parent). Lets just ensure everyone wears a condom or on the pill.Or else here is something wild ensure that teenage boys dont feel pressured they need to have sex to be the man with their mates or teenage girls dont feel pressured to have sex to be accepted by a boy :rolleyes:
And parents take responsibility for their kids :eek:

AFAIK being the victim of sexual assault is not a reason to have a lawful abortion in this country - only if the life of the mother is in danger.
But I'm sure I'll be corrected if my interpretation of the constitution is incorrect

Wolfe Tone

The_Morrigan wrote: »

AFAIK being the victim of sexual assault is not a reason to have a lawful abortion in this country - only if the life of the mother is in danger.
But I'm sure I'll be corrected if my interpretation of the constitution is incorrect

Its not no.


Im sure we have all heard the saying, two wrongs don't make a right.

Ickle Magoo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So they are better off dead then?

Of course not - but we aren't talking about children in a children's home, that's just you trying to drag an already emotive topic down a more emotive cul-de-sac. We're discussing non-sentient beings never becoming sentient beings.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Didn't say I liked it, or am comfortable with it, but that would be as far down that road as I would be willing to go. Thats my compromise.

That's my point - it's your compromise and you don't draw the line at not destroying life or what has the potential to make a human so I'm not sure how your view differs to those who have no issue with abortfacients in early pregnancy - other than throwing around the hysterical terminology.

caseyann

The_Morrigan wrote: »

AFAIK being the victim of sexual assault is not a reason to have a lawful abortion in this country - only if the life of the mother is in danger.
But I'm sure I'll be corrected if my interpretation of the constitution is incorrect

I never said it was,but it should be allowed when a woman or child gets pregnant when forced into sex and becomes pregnant from it.
Luckily enough i believe standard if a woman reports rape immediately she is given morning after pill.

And also those type of men given a tablet to never allow them erection ever again.Because no way going to allow them to be shot. Unfortunately.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Of course not - but we aren't talking about children in a children's home, that's just you trying to drag an already emotive topic down a more emotive cul-de-sac. We're discussing non-sentient beings never becoming sentient beings.

No, you are discussing killing babies so they don't end up in care.

That's my point - it's your compromise and you don't draw the line at not destroying life or what has the potential to make a human so I'm not sure how your view differs to those who have no issue with abortfacients in early pregnancy - other than throwing around the hysterical terminology.

TBH, I would much rather that it didnt happen, but I dont think it has any chance of being made illegal. It is the lesser of two evils if you get my drift.

Wolfe Tone

caseyann wrote: »

I never said it was,but it should be allowed when a woman or child gets pregnant when forced into sex and becomes pregnant from it.
Luckily enough i believe standard if a woman reports rape immediately she is given morning after pill.

And also those type of men given a tablet to never allow them erection ever again.Because no way going to allow them to be shot. Unfortunately.

Would you be ok with a late term abortion n such an instance?
As often is the case women may not report the rape for a while, or could try to hide the pregnancy.

The_Morrigan

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Its not no.


Im sure we have all heard the saying, two wrongs don't make a right.

It would end up being three wrongs eventually (possibly more depending on the outcome), as that child would be a constant reminder of the sexual assault and would either end up in care if the mother just handed the child away at birth or being resented/hated by the mother.

No child deserves that.

caseyann

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Would you be ok with a late term abortion n such an instance?
As often is the case women may not report the rape for a while, or could try to hide the pregnancy.

I do believe majority of women who carry for a while will not go for an abortion due to fact of guilt,and also there is the ones that can lie and say it was rape if that was the case so they may get one.So no if they dont go forward early on they should not be allowed late term abortions.

Ickle Magoo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No, you are discussing killing babies so they don't end up in care.

The discussion is abortion so there are all manner of reasons why the parents wish to do so - I'm just pointing out the oft maligned line that adoption is the cure-all to abortion...it isn't, for all manner of reasons.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

TBH, I would much rather that it didnt happen, but I dont think it has any chance of being made illegal. It is the lesser of two evils if you get my drift.

And yet you'd have no such qualms doing exactly the same prior to implantation - there doesn't appear to be any consistency here. If the cries of "murder" and "babies" are to be taken seriously then all human life must carry inherent value - whether implanted or not. I'm not sure how your arbitrary point is worthy of moral exultation while others doing the same draw disgusted condemnation.

Wolfe Tone

The_Morrigan wrote: »

It would end up being three wrongs eventually (possibly more depending on the outcome), as that child would be a constant reminder of the sexual assault and would either end up in care if the mother just handed the child away at birth or being resented/hated by the mother.

No child deserves that.

Yet again we have the argument that a child is better off dead than in care?

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And yet you'd have no such qualms doing exactly the same prior to implantation - there doesn't appear to be any consistency here. If the cries of "murder" and "babies" are to be taken seriously then all human life must carry inherent value - whether implanted or not. I'm not sure how your arbitrary point is worthy of moral exultation while others doing the same draw disgusted condemnation.

Hmmm, fair enough, I thought that the pre implantation would be a fair compromise allowing for such instances as rape etc, but I get your point to an extent, if I say thats ok, why not the rest?

Of course that argument works the other way too, why be against late term abortions?

The_Morrigan

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Yet again we have the argument that a child is better off dead than in care?

Ok, right I'm gonna get a bit personal on this one now.

I am one of those "unwanted kids", and I've had my mother resent me all my life for dashing her dreams and ruining her life by my mere existence.
She has told me on numerous occasions that if she had the choice she would have aborted "me"....and to be perfectly honest I agree with her to an extent.
In her early 20's my mother was told she could never have kids, due to a medical condition, and if she did get pregnant she wouldn't carry to full term (obviously the doctors were wrong)
My arrival was not from the result of love, there is a question mark over whether my Dad is my Dad, and I have spent my whole life dealing with a woman who didn't want me, but couldn't get rid of me either by abortion or adoption - it is not a nice feeling at all!!

Mussolini have you any idea what its like to not be wanted by your mother? It's heartbreaking and absolutely soul destroying and if it wasn't for my Dad I'd probably be a very very angry person determined on taking it all out on the society that got me in this position in the first place!

Ickle Magoo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Hmmm, fair enough, I thought that the pre implantation would be a fair compromise allowing for such instances as rape etc, but I get your point to an extent, if I say thats ok, why not the rest?

Of course that argument works the other way too, why be against late term abortions?

Exactly.

Apologies, I'm playing devils advocate because my position on this issue is not entirely logical either - I'm probably leaning to slightly further up the line than you but only by a matter of weeks. I acknowledge that anything post conception is killing "life" and I accept I don't inherently object to that - I eat meat, I use anti-bacterial soap, I use a contraceptive device that prevents implantation; I kill lots of things frequently and never give it a second thought. I think - and I am just thinking out loud here - I am more against the deliberate destruction of sentient human life than I am non. In a perfect world there would be no need for that either - but I have to accept we don't live in a perfect world.

Wolfe Tone

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Ok, right I'm gonna get a bit personal on this one now.

I am one of those "unwanted kids", and I've had my mother resent me all my life for dashing her dreams and ruining her life by my mere existence.
She has told me on numerous occasions that if she had the choice she would have aborted "me"....and to be perfectly honest I agree with her to an extent.
In her early 20's my mother was told she could never have kids, due to a medical condition, and if she did get pregnant she wouldn't carry to full term (obviously the doctors were wrong)
My arrival was not from the result of love, there is a question mark over whether my Dad is my Dad, and I have spent my whole life dealing with a woman who didn't want me, but couldn't get rid of me either by abortion or adoption - it is not a nice feeling at all!!

Mussolini have you any idea what its like to not be wanted by your mother? It's heartbreaking and absolutely soul destroying and if it wasn't for my Dad I'd probably be a very very angry person determined on taking it all out on the society that got me in this position in the first place!

I have personal circumstances as well, but I am not willing to discuss them on here, Im not exactly anonymous.

So you would rather be dead then? I know I wouldnt.

Im sure we all know of people who may have been aborted if it were legal/more acceptable etc, and end up as very happy productive people.

The_Morrigan

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I have personal circumstances as well, but I am not willing to discuss them on here, Im not exactly anonymous.

So you would rather be dead then? I know I wouldnt.

Im sure we all know of people who may have been aborted if it were legal/more acceptable etc, and end up as very happy productive people.

At that point - it wasn't me.
My life since birth has shaped and moulded me into the person I am.

and the simple answer to your question for the majority of my life is yes.

Wolfe Tone

The_Morrigan wrote: »

At that point - it wasn't me.
My life since birth has shaped and moulded me into the person I am.

and the simple answer to your question for the majority of my life is yes.

I would disagree, its sad that you feel such a way, but I reject that innocent people who have done no wrong should be denied the chance to live their lives because circumstances are not ideal.

The_Morrigan

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would disagree, its sad that you feel such a way, but I reject that innocent people who have done no wrong should be denied the chance to live their lives because circumstances are not ideal.

Well that is the difference between you and me

enfant terrible

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

According to the UK department of health, between 1980 and 2005 more than 123,000 women from Ireland travelled there for abortions.

I could understand the smug revelling in the Irish abortion laws if it weren't patently obvious that the only thing between legalising abortion and political apathy towards stirring that particular emotive wasps nest is the luxury of being able to export the issue to your nearest neighbour - hardly the moral supremacy that some would have you believe.

How does our abortion rate including those who travel to the UK compare to the rest of the world?

Could it be argued that our abortion policy has resulted in fewer abortions compared to other countries?

Ickle Magoo

enfant terrible wrote: »

How does our abortion rate including those who travel to the UK compare to the rest of the world?

Could it be argued that our abortion policy has resulted in fewer abortions compared to other countries?

I'm not sure it's possible to say - after all, the only statistics available are those that come from women both undertaking an abortion in the UK and freely admitting to having travelled from ireland to do so.

I'm also not sure if having free access to abortions via a close neighbour to avoid having to legislate due to historic religious/state entwinement really counts as abortion policy, does it? Sounds rather cowardly to me.

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not sure it's possible to say - after all, the only statistics available are those that come from women both undertaking an abortion in the UK and freely admitting to having travelled from ireland to do so.

This. I have personal experience of one mate of mine who "took the boat" and didn't show up on any stats. I know because I went with her, when her so called boyfriend got the fear. Of the other three women I know who did similar I'd be surprised if they added to any stat.