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ECHR rules Irish human rights violated by abortion ban

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    #32
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Breezer wrote: »
    And now the ECHR has ruled that the Government needs to implement in legislation the same decision we already made years ago?

    Yup. Sometimes this country can be frustratingly backwards and the Government is more reactive than proactive in it's legislation.

    caramolly wrote: »
    Who are we to take away someone else's right to life?

    Who are we to tell someone else how to run their lives?
    What I do with my body is nobody elses business.


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    #33
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Yup. Sometimes this country can be frustratingly backwards and the Government is more reactive than proactive in it's legislation.
    Sometimes? I think you're being very kind to them there B. :D

    Who are we to tell someone else how to run their lives?
    But we do already. On a daily basis. All societies do. It's getting the balance right for the good of the society that's the ever evolving trick.
    What I do with my body is nobody elses business.
    I would agree, but in some ways this debate, beyond the religious/moral stuff comes down to ownership. One side effectively says the foetus/potential baby belongs to the woman, not the father or her society at large. The other side effectively says it doesn't, that it's a quasi independent entity. Both sides agree with each other in one way regarding how far along the foetus is as no one is calling for terminations at 6 months. And we're back to what constitutes life and independent entities I suppose.

    While I am very much pro choice, the ownership angle interests me I suppose from the male side. I have no say or ownership or choice in the matter over shared DNA at that point, yet when the child is born, I then have responsibility and all that entails(you could also extend that to the society at large too). It feels quite one sided. IMHO for this to be somewhat equitable, I would suggest a kind of "paper termination" be available to men too. Some may argue that this angle isn't part of the debate, but if not then neither is male responsibility for supporting children he didn't want. For then we're telling them how to run their lives and what they do or not do is part of societies business. It has to go both ways or not.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #34
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    misleading thread title is misleading.

    How?

    I couldnt agree more with Jules points on this thread. I used to be pro -life when I was a blind,a la carte Catholic, but as Ive grown older and matured I see that having an abortion should be an individual choice. I don't think anyone has the right to deny someone the right to access a termination If they so choose.

    I will only be voting for politicians in the next general election who publicly support a women's right to choose.


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    #35
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    I'm pro-choice. It is a travesty that so many Irish women are forced to travel abroad in shame/secrecy because this choice is not available for them here.

    We've basically shipped our "problem" abroad, conveniently ignored the fact that there is a need for this facility in Ireland. It's like covering your head with blankets in the hope that the bogeyman won't pop out of the cupboard.

    If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.


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    #36
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Beyond the philosophical stuff the hypocrisy aspect about it in this country is crazy for me. Like maple says we export the "problem".

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #37
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Child Not a Choice wrote: »
    The most glaring thing about today's ruling is the fact that Miss C was afraid that being pregnant would result "in a relapse of her cancer". There has never been a known case of pregnancy inducing cancer in a woman. Likewise, aborting the child does not reduce the risk of a relapse.

    So why did the doctors advise my friend who had an 'Oestrogen-driven' cancer advise her not to have any more children as it would likely cause it to flare up again?


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    #38
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    http://http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/abortion.html

    I must say the reaction from the pulpit has annoyed me...when can Ireland make a decision that does not involve catholic religion?
    We are now a multi cultural and multi religious country, our laws cannot reflect just one religious view.

    Don't even start me on the statement about the profound moral issues that the judgement apparently raises, the catholic church is in no position to analyse anyone else's moral standing :mad:

    However, apart from that mini rant - I agree with Maple, Ireland needs to have proper legislation in place to deal with our problems at home, leaving each parent the right to chose abortion or not depending on their own beliefs and moral standing on the issue.
    The X case and the subsequent referendum raised a lot of issues at the time - We have the right to travel, we also have the right to information in relation to abortion - however, the information is somewhat lacking in this particular instance - what is the law with regard legal abortion in Ireland, and who gets to decide when it is legal etc. It was all put on the long finger and now it has to be fixed instead of being dealt with proactively at the time!


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    #39
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Beyond the philosophical stuff the hypocrisy aspect about it in this country is crazy for me. Like maple says we export the "problem".

    It is the sticking your head in the sand view point. I get really bored listening to all these pro lifers go on about how Ireland doesn't allow abortion and aren't we so great for looking after 'the rights' of a bunch of cells but lets ignore the fact that hundreds if not more of Irish women do get abortions every year by going to other countries. Regardless of your view on abortion and you can quote all the facts you like about heart beats and life starts at blah, it is a fact that Irish women are getting abortions therefore it is clearly something that precentage of the population of this country want access to.

    Child Not a Choice wrote:
    Ireland is one of the top three countries in the world when it comes to maternal and infant health according to the WHO (World Health Organisation). This has been attributed to our pro-life stance.

    So what? seriously don't get what this has to do with the argument....are you saying that if we start to allow abortions the quality of maternal health care is going to drop? Why the hell would it? We are good at looking after babies because we have so many of the bloody things and frankly we can't have our cake and eat, we can't sit here being smug about how good our maternal and infant health care is when our citizens are going our seas for abortions.


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    #40
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    http://http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/abortion.html

    I must say the reaction from the pulpit has annoyed me...when can Ireland make a decision that does not involve catholic religion?
    We are now a multi cultural and multi religious country, our laws cannot reflect just one religious view.

    Don't even start me on the statement about the profound moral issues that the judgement apparently raises, the catholic church is in no position to analyse anyone else's moral standing :mad:

    Yes it sickens me that the media is even covering their reaction. However,If there is a referendum in the morning Catholic organisation such as Coir and Youth Defence will be out in full force trying to push their skewed morality on the nation. They have enormous financial backing that Choice Ireland and the IFPA cannot hope to match.
    They have been runnng a very slick billboard campaign in Munster for the last month,I wonder where they get the money from?


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    #41
    Aswerty
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Aswerty


    While I am very much pro choice, the ownership angle interests me I suppose from the male side. I have no say or ownership or choice in the matter over shared DNA at that point, yet when the child is born, I then have responsibility and all that entails(you could also extend that to the society at large too). It feels quite one sided. IMHO for this to be somewhat equitable, I would suggest a kind of "paper termination" be available to men too. Some may argue that this angle isn't part of the debate, but if not then neither is male responsibility for supporting children he didn't want. For then we're telling them how to run their lives and what they do or not do is part of societies business. It has to go both ways or not.
    I would very much agree with this. If a mother to be is given the choice so too must the father to be.

    I'd like to think when next an abortion referendum appears that if the effects, of an abortion or non abortion of a foetus, on a father to be are not addressed I would vote against abortion. In reality though I don't think I could deny women the choice just because men are refused it. Those who perpetuate the idea that abortion (or more exactly the legalisation of abortion) is solely a female issue are extremely blinkered.


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    #42
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Aswerty wrote: »
    I would very much agree with this. If a mother to be is given the choice so too must the father to be.

    I'd like to think when next an abortion referendum appears that if the effects, of an abortion or non abortion of a foetus, on a father to be are not addressed I would vote against abortion. In reality though I don't think I could deny women the choice just because men are refused it. Those who perpetuate the idea that abortion (or more exactly the legalisation of abortion) is solely a female issue are extremely blinkered.

    Personally, I think it is the parents decision, I mean when people think of abortion they usually go straight to the unplanned pregnancy/teenage pregnancy etc scenario.
    They don't automatically think of a married couple maybe with children already and having to weigh up the choice between aborting their unborn child due to medical reasons or leaving a family without a mother.

    This was touched on in the McGee case in the 70's where the choice to import contraception to save the family unit under the consitution was challenged..this is typically the same arguement, just not a pro-active one, its a reactive one.


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    #43
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Where does the father fit into all of this? What if he doesn't want the abortion?



    I wonder if those who peddle the "it not really a life" crap to those who have suffered a misscarraige? "Don't worry, sure tis just a bunch o cells."


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    #44
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I wonder if those who peddle the "it not really a life" crap to those who have suffered a misscarraige? "Don't worry, sure tis just a bunch o cells."
    Equally, how do you know those who shout about the life of the unborn child now wouldn't want the choice for a termination should they be in a situation whereby the pregnancy happened at less than the "optimum" time for them?
    It's easy to protest against something that you have no experience of.

    To those women that I know who have suffered a miscarriage and for those I know who have had an abortion, I say the same thing. It was not the time for that baby.

    It is rarely as black and white a situation as you are making it out to be.


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    #45
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    maple wrote: »
    Equally, how do you know those who shout about the life of the unborn child now wouldn't want the choice for a termination should they be in a situation whereby the pregnancy happened at less than the "optimum" time for them?
    I would hope they are decent human beings who would look at other options which dont result in an innocent baby being killed. I certainly would fight tooth and nail to stop any baby of mine being killed because it was an inconvenience to the mother.
    It's easy to protest against something that you have no experience of.
    Thats daft logic and you know it, lets apply that to other things shall we? Ive never experienced racial abuse or discrimination, guess I better not protest about that then!
    To those women that I know who have suffered a miscarriage and for those I know who have had an abortion, I say the same thing. It was not the time for that baby.
    Not time for that baby? In one instance it was a tragedy, in the other it may have been sheer murder, depending on the mothers health.


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    #46
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Where does the father fit into all of this? What if he doesn't want the abortion?

    Then maybe we should look into methods for allowing males to carry a baby to term but until then I'm sorry it's the womans body. I'm all for equal rights for fathers but it's not right to force someone who doesn't want to to carry a child to term.

    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I wonder if those who peddle the "it not really a life" crap to those who have suffered a misscarraige? "Don't worry, sure tis just a bunch o cells."

    I don't force my view points on to other people which is why I don't want theres pushed on to me. I see it as a bunch of cells and would have an abortion in a heart beat if I have somehow ended up pregnant but that does not mean I don't understand that others view it differently and would never say something so heartless to someone after suffering a misscarragie....I did listen to a so called pro life woman tell my mother to get over it and it was gods choice after she suffered a miscarraige.

    I've had friends who've had abortions and miscarraiges and there is little difference between the two as far as the emtional aspect go. Many people seem to have this view that an abortion is like some magic thing that happens - in you go, magic wand waved, the end....it's not like that at all, it is a medical proceedure unless you are so early along to opt for a chemical abortion which the majority of Irish women aren't as it takes time to make the choice then arrange to travel overseas. For the majority its not a choice that is made lightly and stress and emtional issues are mulitplied by the shame and guilt of having to go to a different country.


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    #47
    Gauge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Gauge


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Where does the father fit into all of this? What if he doesn't want the abortion?



    I wonder if those who peddle the "it not really a life" crap to those who have suffered a misscarraige? "Don't worry, sure tis just a bunch o cells."

    Where do the people who have suffered a miscarriage and are pro choice fit into your view of this? I know more than a few. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    maple- regarding your point about it being easy to protest something you have no experience of. There's a very good, well written example of a similar situation here- told by a woman who was originally pro life but found herself choosing abortion when the situation actually affected her own life:

    http://theantiroom.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/5075/

    Likewise, another interesting link I came across reading about this, which looks at the issue through the experiences of the nameless women we've all read about. Worth a read:

    http://theantiroom.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/a-landmark-for-womens-rights-in-ireland/


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    #48
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ztoical wrote: »
    Then maybe we should look into methods for allowing males to carry a baby to term but until then I'm sorry it's the womans body. I'm all for equal rights for fathers but it's not right to force someone who doesn't want to to carry a child to term.

    What about the baby? Im pretty sure the man was involved in creating it! And Im sure if she gave birth to the baby she would want money and support from the dad. So equal rights to see the child etc, but not with regard to the childs life, ok.



    I don't force my view points on to other people which is why I don't want theres pushed on to me. I see it as a bunch of cells and would have an abortion in a heart beat if I have somehow ended up pregnant but that does not mean I don't understand that others view it differently and would never say something so heartless to someone after suffering a misscarragie....I did listen to a so called pro life woman tell my mother to get over it and it was gods choice after she suffered a miscarraige.
    Nice to see we have people here who will kill in a heart beat!
    I've had friends who've had abortions and miscarraiges and there is little difference between the two as far as the emtional aspect go. Many people seem to have this view that an abortion is like some magic thing that happens - in you go, magic wand waved, the end....it's not like that at all, it is a medical proceedure unless you are so early along to opt for a chemical abortion which the majority of Irish women aren't as it takes time to make the choice then arrange to travel overseas. For the majority its not a choice that is made lightly and stress and emtional issues are mulitplied by the shame and guilt of having to go to a different country.
    I am sure the "shame and guilt" of killing an innocent child who has done no wrong plays a part too.


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    #49
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Gauge wrote: »
    Where do the people who have suffered a miscarriage and are pro choice fit into your view of this? I know more than a few. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    I never said they where did I?


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    #50
    Gauge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Gauge


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I never said they where did I?

    I never said you did. Interesting how your reply focused on that part of my post and ignored the question I asked.


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    #51
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Gauge wrote: »
    I never said you did. Interesting how your reply focused on that part of my post and ignored the question I asked.
    The only women I know who have suffered misscarraiges have been absolutely devastated by the death of their baby, none of them would wish another baby to die tbh.


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    #52
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Nice to see we have people here who will kill in a heart beat!

    That is your opinion.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I am sure the "shame and guilt" of killing an innocent child who has done no wrong plays a part too.

    That is your opinion.


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    #53
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ztoical wrote: »
    That is your opinion.



    That is your opinion.
    Actually, it is the law in this country too.


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    #54
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I would hope they are decent human beings who would look at other options which dont result in an innocent baby being killed. I certainly would fight tooth and nail to stop any baby of mine being killed because it was an inconvenience to the mother.
    Decent human beings? So because a woman/couple choose to have an abortion then they are less than decent? I hope you have a lovely view from up high in your ivory tower.

    You are pro-life, such is your choice. In an ideal world women would get pregnant and the father would be delighted and the future would all be tied up in a lovely bow. The reality is very much different. There are practical considerations, financial considerations, it is rarely as simplistic a decision to have a child (be it accidental or planned) as you perceive it to be.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Thats daft logic and you know it, lets apply that to other things shall we? Ive never experienced racial abuse or discrimination, guess I better not protest about that then!
    No, it is my logic. I would never judge a woman who had a termination. I would think it a terribly sad and in a lot of cases life changing decision for a person/couple to have to make.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Not time for that baby? In one instance it was a tragedy, in the other it may have been sheer murder, depending on the mothers health.
    In my opinion, both are tragic. I mean, who really ever wants to find themselves in a position whereby they have to have an abortion?


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    #55
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Actually, it is the law in this country too.

    The law states that women who've been overseas to have an abortion have committed murder...really? Why aren't they being arrested upon their return then?


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    #56
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    maple wrote: »
    Decent human beings? So because a woman/couple choose to have an abortion then they are less than decent? I hope you have a lovely view from up high in your ivory tower.
    Yes, unless the mother is likely to die as a result of the pregnancy. There are thousands of couples out there who would love to adopt a child and raise it as their own.
    You are pro-life, such is your choice. In an ideal world women would get pregnant and the father would be delighted and the future would all be tied up in a lovely bow. The reality is very much different. There are practical considerations, financial considerations, it is rarely as simplistic a decision to have a child (be it accidental or planned) as you perceive it to be.
    Wow, so we can measure the worth of a life in financial terms now. So unless you have the two cars, x amount in the bank it is ok to kill a baby?
    No, it is my logic. I would never judge a woman who had a termination. I would think it a terribly sad and in a lot of cases life changing decision for a person/couple to have to make.
    It's a life ending decision for the child. Don't try and cast the parents as some kind of victims, they haven't been killed.


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    #57
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ztoical wrote: »
    The law states that women who've been overseas to have an abortion have committed murder...really? Why aren't they being arrested upon their return then?
    Yo never said anything about leaving the country did you? My opinion is shared by this state.


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    #58
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yo never said anything about leaving the country did you? My opinion is shared by this state.



    Yes I did I very clearly stated " For the majority its not a choice that is made lightly and stress and emtional issues are mulitplied by the shame and guilt of having to go to a different country". And BTW the state does allow the abortion of ectopic pregnancies which in your view would be murder.


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    #59
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ztoical wrote: »
    Yes I did I very clearly stated " For the majority its not a choice that is made lightly and stress and emtional issues are mulitplied by the shame and guilt of having to go to a different country". And BTW the state does allow the abortion of ectopic pregnancies which in your view would be murder.
    The point remains, you are not allowed to have your abortion here, because it is illegal, simple as, so it is not just my opinion

    They would normally result in a misscarraige am I right? And major health problems for the mother?


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    #60
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    The law does allow women to travel overseas to have an abortion so it is your opinion that those women have committed murder not that states.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    They would normally result in a misscarraige am I right? And major health problems for the mother?

    An ectopic pregnancies would not normally result in a misscarraige it has to be removed surgically or it will result in the womens death.


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    #61
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ztoical wrote: »
    The law does allow women to travel overseas to have an abortion so it is your opinion that those women have committed murder not that states.



    An ectopic pregnancies would not normally result in a misscarraige it has to be removed surgically or it will result in the womens death.
    Yes, so how would I be against that abortion then? If there is a very high risk of the mothers death......


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