Professor charged with incest with his daughter

Tea-a-Maria

Pyridine wrote: »

David Epstein proudly putting the perv into superviser
and the lech into lecturer!

There's no 'h' in lecturer.:pac:

parker kent

28064212 wrote: »

Although I'd actually be on seamus' side, they shouldn't be charged at all unless there's an issue of consent. Incest shouldn't be against the law where there's no consent issue.

Of course they should be charged. Any offspring has an extreme chance of deformities and would likely end up in state care.

sink

Should people with genetic disorders be sterilised?

strobe

parker kent wrote: »

Of course they should be charged. Any offspring has an extreme chance of deformities and would likely end up in state care.

Should we also prosecute any person who carries a genetic disorder which is likely to be passed on, if they should happen to have consensual sex with someone?

"Who's your daddy?"

"Er - you"

coffee_cake

She should surely be charged also

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

dont be silly bluewolf, women dont commit crimes. men are evil, women are virtious, etc etc

Riamfada

bluewolf wrote: »

She should surely be charged also

Charged with gross sexiness ...

28064212

parker kent wrote: »

Of course they should be charged. Any offspring has an extreme chance of deformities and would likely end up in state care.

What strobe said:

strobe wrote: »

Should we also prosecute any person who carries a genetic disorder which is likely to be passed on, if they should happen to have consensual sex with someone?

It's an ethical minefield. Personally, I'd be all for a eugenics programme, and put responsibility on people to account for their actions (i.e. you couldn't just foist a baby on the state after indulging in behaviour like that), but that opens a whole catalogue of other issues

parker kent

strobe wrote: »

Should we also prosecute any person who carries a genetic disorder which is likely to be passed on, if they should happen to have consensual sex with someone?

You know what I meant. It was an off-the cuff reply and is obviously not meant to be about any genetic disorders. I obviously meant that incest is a taboo for a good reason.

coffee_cake

parker kent wrote: »

You not what I meant. It was an off-the cuff reply and is obviously not meant to be about any genetic disorders. I obviously meant that incest is a taboo for a good reason.

which is?

Cuddlesworth

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Don't underestimate the power a parent has over the child. Look at what Mackenzie Philips said last year

Mackenzie Phillips, daughter of The Mamas & The Papas frontman John Phillips, revealed last night that her incestuous relationship with her father was not consensual, contrary to her past claims that it was.
"I'd like to reframe my word consensual," Phillips said on Tuesday night's "Joy Behar Show."
"As I was writing , I thought, this word, it kept sitting wrong with me. But I used it for lack of a better word," she said. "Since then, I've been schooled by thousands of incest survivors all across the world that there really is no such thing as consensual incest due to the inherent power a parent has over a child.
"So, I wouldn't necessarily call it a consensual relationship at this time."
Phillips, 50, revealed on the "Oprah Winfrey Show" last September that she was 17 when she began sleeping with her famous father.
She recounted over 30 years of constant sexual contact, even though she eventually married and had a family of her own. The actress even claimed she had an abortion after her father, who died in 2001, impregnated her.
Phillips documented her controversial relationship in the book "High on Arrival."
During her recent appearance on VH1's "Celebrity Rehab," Phillips got some insight from Dr. Drew Pinsky -- incest is never consensual.
"The child is trying to make sense of this situation she feels as though the only she can survive it is by saying, 'I'm creating it, I have some power in this, I'm consenting to it.' When the fact is, the kind of relationship a parent has with a child makes consent actually impossible," he explained.
Since speaking out about her personal issues, Phillips said the ordeal has impacted her world.
"I've had so many people come forward, saying 'I never had the strength to tell my story,'" she said. "It's been an incredible experience becoming part of a community."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2010/02/03/2010-02-03_mackenzie_phillips_explains_incestuous_relationship_with_father_john_phillips_wa.html#ixzz184j1I3pG

Sounds like it was consensual right up to the point where she kept being told in a thousand different ways it wasn't by other people. funny that.....

Jimmy Bottlehead

seamus wrote: »

Homosexual activity and as I mention above, things like scat porn and the like, I would equally find very distasteful, but I don't at any stage consider that one or more parties are being co-erced into doing it.

Sorry, just to clarify, are you saying homosexual activity is something you find distasteful? I may have picked up on this wrong; at least I hope so!

parker kent

bluewolf wrote: »

which is?

A higher proportion of congenital birth defects is the obvious reason. There are many theories out there about the incest taboo (Levi-Strauss and many others have discussed it). But from a legal view, it should be pretty obvious that the law is in place to ensure that it never becomes normalised in any way and to prevent an increase is birth defects.

That is not in my view the same as somebody with a hereditary birth defect having children. It is an ethical minefield and it would need much more than posts of 50-100 words on Boards to properly discuss it. But I don't think anybody should really need to ask why incest is a taboo.

Pompey Magnus

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Can you support that? I was of the impression the going rate is about 4% chance.

From Pubmed, the U.S. National Library of Medicine: Link

J Pediatr. 1982 Nov;101(5):854-7.Links
Children of incest.
Baird PA, McGillivray B.

Twenty-nine children of brother-sister or father-daughter matings were studied. Twenty-one were ascertained because of the history of incest, eight because of signs or symptoms in the child. In the first group of 21 children, 12 had abnormalities, which were severe in nine (43%). In one of these the disorder was autosomal recessive. All eight of the group referred with signs or symptoms had abnormalities, three from recessive disorders. The high empiric risk for severe problems in the children of such close consanguineous matings should be borne in mind, as most of these infants are relinquished for adoption.

29 children of incest. 12 having abnormalities, severe in 9 of these.

Int J Legal Med. 2009 Mar 13. [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Psychomotor developmental delay and epilepsy in an offspring of father-daughter incest: quantification of the causality probability.
Schmidtke J, Krawczak M.

Institut für Humangenetik, Medizinische Hochschule Hannover, Carl-Neuberg-Str. 1, 30625, Hannover, Germany, schmidtke.joerg@mh-hannover.de.

A 20-year-old offspring of father-daughter incest, who has been suffering from serious psychomotoric health problems since early childhood, is seeking financial compensation under the German federal act of victim indemnification. For her appeal to be valid, the probability X that the incest was causal for her disorder must exceed 50%. Based upon the available medical records, we show that this is indeed the case and that X is even likely to exceed 65%, thereby rendering the victim's claim scientifically and legally justified.

Believed that psychomotoric problems occur in between 50-65% of children born to father-daughter incest cases.

J Ment Defic Res. 1990 Dec;34 ( Pt 6):483-90.Links
Incest and mental handicap.
Jancar J, Johnston SJ.

Stoke Park Hospital, Stapleton, Bristol, England.

This is probably the first retrospective study of an adult mentally handicapped population of incestuous parentage. Eleven known incestuous unions were identified with 38 offspring, of whom 15 were admitted to the Stoke Park group of hospitals. Incest and its legal definition in different societies are considered. The effects of close inbreeding on mortality, morbidity, mental function and adoption are examined. The study also reaffirms that incest is one of the causes of mental handicap in a high percentage of offspring.

38 people studied who were born from incestuous relationships, 15 of whom had been admitted to mental hospitals.

c_man

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It is the government's business in that their activity could lead to a deformed kid.

Any couple trying for a baby 'could' lead to a deformed or illness bound kid e.g. two carriers of Cystic fibrosis gene mutation. Should the government regulate these as well?


Edit: Ah I see this has already been raised

Daftendirekt

parker kent wrote: »

That is not in my view the same as somebody with a hereditary birth defect having children. It is an ethical minefield and it would need much more than posts of 50-100 words on Boards to properly discuss it. But I don't think anybody should really need to ask why incest is a taboo.

I very much disagree.

Ignoring the issue of people with genetic disorders for now (which I think is entirely relevant to the topic)... What about incestuous relationships where children aren't even a possibility? Supposing the father in the article had undergone a vasectomy? Should he then be allowed to have a consensual relationship with whomever he chooses, or should his relationship with his daughter still be taboo?

AnnyHallsal

This is a tragedy for the whole family. Social judgement will haunt them, probably always. This is the kind of thing that makes people change identities and start all over again, such is the weight of social disapproval, designed, I suppose, to curtail such potentially profoundly destructive relationships. At the best of times sexuality is an uncomfortable shadow in the family unit.

Rented Mule

Sugarfree wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337416/David-Epstein-Ivy-League-professor-charged-incest-relationship-daughter.html

A Columbia University professor accused of a three-year sexual relationship with his daughter was charged with incest yesterday.
Political science professor David Epstein, 46, allegedly bedded his 24-year-old daughter between 2006 and 2009.
Epstein, who specialises in American politics and voting rights, is said to have also exchanged twisted text messages with the girl during the consensual relationship.
University spokesman Robert Hornsby said that Epstein 'is now on administrative leave and will not be teaching students'.
The well-liked professor, who has taught at Harvard and Stanford, was married to another lecturer at the Ivy League institution, Sharyn O'Halloran, but the pair recently divorced.
'We ask that everyone remember that he is innocent until proven otherwise and that these allegations are nothing more than allegations,' said Epstein's defence lawyer Matthew Galluzzo.

Epstein, who teaches political science at Ivy League institute Columbia University, allegedly exchanged twisted text messages with the girl during the consensual relationship
Epstein faces up to four years behind bars if convicted.
It is yet another scandal for Columbia University after five of its students were arrested last week for running a drug-dealing ring on campus.
The men, who sold LSD-laced sweets and cocaine, claimed that they needed to do it to pay for tuition fees.

Well if she's not good enough for her own family .........

Enkidu

Daftendirekt wrote: »

or should his relationship with his daughter still be taboo?

Well I think there is a difference between something being taboo and it being illegal. There are several activities a lot of us would find repugnant but we wouldn't think they should be illegal, for example holding racist views.

Dudess

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ok, maybe blaming feminism was a bit on the harsh side:pac:. however, it must be noted that the immediate victim is seen as the woman, not the man.

Not harsh, just unnecessary, irrelevant, sh1t-stirring etc. You know perfectly well whenever there is a revelation regarding a sexual relationship between a parent and child, those who don't bother to investigate the details immediately vent their ire in the direction of the parent, irrespective of their gender.

now i know this comes back to the above argument aswell but i'm still of the opinion it's not investigated equally

What has opinion got to do with it? It either is or isn't.

But agreed, while I think it's truly ludicrous that incest is illegal, as long as it is, both parties should be prosecuted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

c_man wrote: »

Any couple trying for a baby 'could' lead to a deformed or illness bound kid e.g. two carriers of Cystic fibrosis gene mutation. Should the government regulate these as well?


Edit: Ah I see this has already been raised

I think they should legislate to criminalise sex between cousins. After that it become impractical

It is done for tay-sachs for a certain ethnic group of jews in Israel - you can register yourself on database so if you meet someone you can see if they have the recessive gene and therefore not continue the relationship

Cat Melodeon

seamus wrote: »

And how do you separate an unpleasant person exploiting a relationship from all the pleasant people who've just ended up in a taboo scenario?

A taboo situation is something like kissing cousins. Power plays within families can create scenarios where a child is brought up thinking that a sexualised relationship with a close relative is normal. Even if the parent waits until the child reaches adulthood, the issue of consent is still problematic as the parent has effectively groomed the child to feel that it is okay to have a sexual relationship with them once they have reached the age of 'consent'.

seamus wrote: »

Sorry, I don't buy the "vulnerable" nonsense where a relationship has been going on consensually and without any kind of coercion.

How do you define coercion? Only the threat of physical violence? You don't view the building of an inappropriate relationship between a parent and child which is them consummated when the child reaches adulthood as an equivalent form of coercion? Survivors of rape and incest beg to differ.

seamus wrote: »

Yes, I can see perfectly well how an unscruplulous parent could leverage their position to force themselves on an adult child, but ultimately that requires coercion, the threat of something which results in some kind of reluctant or forced consent from the other party, which ultimately could be determined to be a form of rape or other sexual assault.

We have no evidence that anything of the sort has gone on here, and the bare facts that we know - the length of time this has gone on, indicate that it was entirely consentual. Otherwise he would be charged with some kind of rape, right?

People only have one father (bar same-sex families, foster families, adoptees etc). Fathers are hugely influential in a daughter's understanding of relationships. A father who sees nothing wrong with sleeping with his own daughter cannot possibly have built a relationship with her based on a parent-child relationship - it will always have been dysfunctional. Thus her understanding of relationships will also be dysfunctional, and yes, he is largely to blame for that. Just as a mother would be if she had built a similar relationship with her daughter or son. The parent is in the position of power and is responsible for the nature of the relationship.

seamus wrote: »

Different scenario again because it requires the relationship to have begun before adulthood.

This relationship DID begin before adulthood, it began when the child was born. The sexual part of it may not have begun until adulthood, but that will have grown from the existing screwed-up parent-child dynamic.

midlandsmissus

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Sounds like it was consensual right up to the point where she kept being told in a thousand different ways it wasn't by other people. funny that.....

Read more of her story.

It all started with him raping her the evening before her wedding. She states that he drugged and raped her.
It then became 'consensual'. Consensual, or some-one frantically yto get a bit of power and dignity back out of the situation because she felt completely out of control? This is a reaction recorded by psychologists.

I don't think a parent - child relationship can ever be consensual. As said, she would have been groomed from a child, and there are too many power issues at play, "He only loves me if I have sex with him, that's the only way I can get love".

Why do you think so many children don't report parental abuse? Because it completely and utterly f*cks with your head. You can't believe the person who is supposed to be your main guardian can do that to you.

It's listed as the most harmful thing that can be possibly done to a child: abuse by a parent. The damage done is so massive, and the child can never have normal relationships again. I'll have to find the link that said pyshologists find it almost impossible to reverse the damage done, as it has such a huge effect on the developing brain.

COUCH WARRIOR

Pherekydes wrote: »

Do the Math!

2006, 2007, 2008, 2009. Four years!

smart fail

1/1/2006 to 31/12/2009 4 years
31/12/2006 to 1/1/2009 inclusive 3 years 2days

insufficient data

average all possibilities rounded 3 years

prob. of 4 years v.small

take everything

COUCH WARRIOR wrote: »

smart fail

1/1/2006 to 31/12/2009 4 years
31/12/2006 to 1/1/2009 inclusive 3 years 2days

insufficient data

average all possibilities rounded 3 years

prob. of 4 years v.small

FWIW 31/12/06 to 01/01/09 inclusive is 2 years 2 days.
Better change that spoiler before your man sees it.
I won't say anything.

admiralofthefleet

i went through this whole thread and didnt see a single pic of the daughter, is she hot or a munter

OutlawPete

This just in ..

The pair of them are moving to Switzerland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/8198917/Switzerland-considers-repealing-incest-laws.html

Shenshen

Sugarfree wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337416/David-Epstein-Ivy-League-professor-charged-incest-relationship-daughter.html

A Columbia University professor accused of a three-year sexual relationship with his daughter was charged with incest yesterday.
Political science professor David Epstein, 46, allegedly bedded his 24-year-old daughter between 2006 and 2009.
Epstein, who specialises in American politics and voting rights, is said to have also exchanged twisted text messages with the girl during the consensual relationship.
University spokesman Robert Hornsby said that Epstein 'is now on administrative leave and will not be teaching students'.
The well-liked professor, who has taught at Harvard and Stanford, was married to another lecturer at the Ivy League institution, Sharyn O'Halloran, but the pair recently divorced.
'We ask that everyone remember that he is innocent until proven otherwise and that these allegations are nothing more than allegations,' said Epstein's defence lawyer Matthew Galluzzo.

Epstein, who teaches political science at Ivy League institute Columbia University, allegedly exchanged twisted text messages with the girl during the consensual relationship
Epstein faces up to four years behind bars if convicted.
It is yet another scandal for Columbia University after five of its students were arrested last week for running a drug-dealing ring on campus.
The men, who sold LSD-laced sweets and cocaine, claimed that they needed to do it to pay for tuition fees.

So what's her punishment going to be?

Ghandee

Whose yer daddy?