I hate people who diss Arts

rebel girl 15

Steba wrote: »

I know thats almost 2 years old, but....We can't be doing much wrong if we'r ranked 8th?

Latest PISA/OECD reports (2009) show that Ireland have dropped from 5th to 17th for reading levels, and from 16th to 26th for maths, stayed 13th in science. And there is a huge question mark over the validity of the statistics from 2006, that they were inflated through some different techniques - that 8th place is far from accurate imo!

Pi^2, the fault does not lie with the universities alone - look at the secondary education people receive here which creates the culture of learning for the sake of exams rather than learning to broaden your mind etc. Your argument could b made for the leaving cert, do I want 400 points but a broad education or get 550 by cramming? The way I see it, the exams are a mean to get a mark not an education, its a method of getting somewhere to do something else. But after the education system is finished i.e. graduate uni, what are you left with? Learning is for life, not just for university and school

the higher numbers in college are because we as a nation require higher education standards to employ people - 15/20 years ago, you could a variety of decent jobs after your leaving, whereas now you need a degree and many cases a masters before you become employable

TanG411

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Yes, yes....he used "then" instead of "than". Crime of the century.

Get over it and move on, people. No more picking apart another user's spelling or grammar.

Bunch of Grammar Nazis the whole lot of them!

Pi^2

Pi^2, the fault does not lie with the universities alone - look at the secondary education people receive here which creates the culture of learning for the sake of exams rather than learning to broaden your mind etc.

I am well aware of the state of secondary education. I give grinds to Junior and Leaving Cert kids. Mostly maths and science. I don't ever use their textbooks or past papers. I discuss the maths and physics behind time travel, nuclear fusion, robots and sci fi films like the Matrix with them (and I stealthily throw in a few problems here and there too!).

Then they fall in love with the subject and study it themselves. And that's the problem with education. I'm showing the kids the subject and it's inherent potential, I'm not telling them what to do or limiting their applications of the subject.

They say stuff like "they never tell us this in school" and it kills me. Is it because teachers are so fixated on the exams ... or... is it because the teachers are not masters of the subject themsleves and thus are not capable of playing with it and portraying it in a manner beyond the form presented in the textbooks.

This raises the issue. Is your lecturer good at teaching a subject, or is he/she simply good at the subject?

This brings the topic back to dissing arts because it produces some useless secondary school teahers Man I hate Arts! ...only messing.

Eliot Rosewater

Pi^2 wrote: »

So, I ask, what is better, to get a thorough education by exploting all the available resources to you, really mastering your field and applying your knowledge of it and receive a 2.2 degree in the end. Or get a 1.1 by cramming exam papers and focusing all your attention on what is examinable and ignoring everything else?

Can't you get both?

I think that being passionate about what you're studying in college does benefit your grades. You're not going to like everything you do, of course, but there is that spill-over effect, especially with technical degrees like ours (yes, I stalked you. Linux rocks.).

Pi^2 wrote: »

This raises the issue. Is your lecturer good at teaching a subject, or is he/she simply good at the subject?

Lecturers' primary job is research, and this does show. I suppose the main retort is that you're supposed to be old enough to grasp the material yourself ... okay, I don't actually like being devil's advocate!

Pi^2 wrote: »

They say stuff like "they never tell us this in school" and it kills me. Is it because teachers are so fixated on the exams ... or... is it because the teachers are not masters of the subject themsleves and thus are not capable of playing with it and portraying it in a manner beyond the form presented in the textbooks.

I'd say the exam mindset is major enough (ie anything that won't help in an exam is superfluous and thus not to be taught). Even if a teacher were to be creative there wouldn't be any benefit at the end of the day. His super-interested maths students would still get the same LC points, and start off on the undergrad ladder at the same place.

Maths and science can definitely be made interesting. For example, you could do a whole section on the connections between maths (boolean algebra) electronic engineering, applications in computer science and logic in general, even non-strictly-scientific logic (for example, philosophical reasoning).

I found that once I started looking into seemingly disparate things I saw all these connections. For example, many mathematical proofs are based on the same reasoning as Plato's Republic (make a statement which is then deemed true only when all objections have been dealt with.) But this is more general knowledge mainly for its own sake, and as such not something that can be examined.

Pi^2

Pna'g lbh trg obgu?

V ernyvfr gung'f whfg n wbxr, ohg V'yy whfg fnl, bs pbhefr V xabj gung lbh pna unir obgu naq ybnqf bs crbcyr qb. V'z whfg fnlvat pbyyrtr pbhyq or n yvggyr zber rssvpvrag, zber orarsvpvny, zber cebqhpgvir naq trarenyyl rnfvre jvgubhg qhzovat guvatf qbja be pnhfvat tenqr vasyngvba. Naq, nf jr nterr, vg pbhyq or n ybg zber erjneqvat naq rapbhentvat bs bevtvany jbex.

Jbnu! Yrff fgnyxvat! Gung fcvyy bire rssrpg vf gur ohfvarff nyevtug.

Znguf naq fpvrapr pna qrsvavgryl or znqr vagrerfgvat. Sbe rknzcyr, lbh pbhyq qb n jubyr frpgvba ba gur pbaarpgvbaf orgjrra znguf (obbyrna nytroen) ryrpgebavp ratvarrevat, nccyvpngvbaf va pbzchgre fpvrapr naq ybtvp va trareny, rira aba-fgevpgyl-fpvragvsvp ybtvp (sbe rknzcyr, cuvybfbcuvpny ernfbavat).

Vg'f znq nyevtug, lbh pna trg ernyyl qrrc vagb gur zngrzngvpny haqrecvaavatf bs neg (engvbf, unezbavpf) naq cuvybfbcul (ybtvp, pbzcyrkvgl gerrf) naq ynathntr (rapbqvat,pbzcerffvba, ragebcl). Naq gura guvatf yvxr senpgnyf naq pryyhyne nhgbzngn naq pbzchgnovyvgl naq ghevat grfgf/negvsvpny vagryyvtrapr naq punbf gurbel fubj hf ubj crbcyr naq pebjqf pna bcrengr irel cerqvpgnoyl. Naq gur qrrcre lbh trg qbja vagb dhnaghz gurbel naq fgevat gurbel, gur jbeyq fgnegf gb srry yvxr n fvzhyngvba.

Yrg, K=Fpvrapr fghqragf
Yrg, L=Negf Fghqragf

Naq gura lbh ernyvfr gung K gbgnyyl haqrefgnaq K naq guvf havirefr va trareny naq jr gbgnyyl haqrefgnaq L orpnhfr gurl ner zreryl yvivat va n iveghnyvfrq jbeyq yvxr jura lbh hfr IZJner gb obbg hc Yvahk vafvqr Jvaqbjf.

Gung vf, vg'f yvxr K ner va gur havirefny frg naq L yvir va gurve gval fhofrg jurer gurl znxr gurfr ehyrf jurer gurl pna or vzcbegnag naq vfbyngrq. Naq K ernyvfr ubj gevivny jr ner naq jr'er pbby jvgu gung.

Naq gung'f jul negf vf ehoovfu. Vg'f n whfg na negvsvpny frys pbagnvarq iveghny flfgrz. Vg bppnfvbanyyl cbcf fbzr L vagb gur havirefny frg naq gurl'er pbzcyrgryl birejuryzrq. Lbh pna cbc K vagb gur negf jbeyq ohg K jvyy whfg fgneg sylvat nebhaq, qvfborlvat gur ybpny ynjf orpnhfr gurl xabj vgf n srroyr pbafgehpg.

Serr lbhe zvaq. Hfr ab jnl nf jnl, unir ab yvzvgngvba nf yvzvgngvba.

V'q fnl gur rknz zvaqfrg vf znwbe rabhtu (vr nalguvat gung jba'g uryc va na rknz vf fhcresyhbhf naq guhf abg gb or gnhtug). Rira vs n grnpure jrer gb or perngvir gurer jbhyqa'g or nal orarsvg ng gur raq bs gur qnl. Uvf fhcre-vagrerfgrq znguf fghqragf jbhyq fgvyy trg gur fnzr YP cbvagf, naq fgneg bss ba gur haqretenq ynqqre ng gur fnzr cynpr.

Lbh fnl gung abj, ohg jurer jbhyq lbh or jvgubhg gur srj perngvir naq raguhfvnfgvp grnpuref jub tbg lbh gb jurer lbh ner gbqnl?!


Pbatenghyngvbaf ernqre, ba penpxvat gur zbfg qvssvphyg pbqr xabja gb zna.

UnionOfV

Pi^2 wrote: »

Naq gung'f jul negf vf ehoovfu. Vg'f n whfg na negvsvpny frys pbagnvarq iveghny flfgrz. Vg bppnfvbanyyl cbcf fbzr L vagb gur havirefny frg naq gurl'er pbzcyrgryl birejuryzrq. Lbh pna cbc K vagb gur negf jbeyq ohg K jvyy whfg fgneg sylvat nebhaq, qvfborlvat gur ybpny ynjf orpnhfr gurl xabj vgf n srroyr pbafgehpg.

Nicely observed. And bringing it back to the employment issue, once K has been raised in an environment which allows K to quickly adapt to their future employment, while L have lived through a far more academic education, far removed from any working environment. It's almost as if L were not expected to enter industry after their degree.

In fact, having sat in on many first-year arts lectures, I keep finding myself wondering what exactly is this sought-after skillset that some arts students say they have. While employers do generally value people who bring in a fresh vision, they still need a relevant skillset. I only have experienced a minute sector of the industry, I admit, but from what I can see IT companies value mathematicians and financial groups value engineers, both for the valid qualifications they can bring to the company. No arts module I've seen would be valid in either.

Pi^2 wrote: »

Pbatenghyngvbaf ernqre, ba penpxvat gur zbfg qvssvphyg pbqr xabja gb zna.

Hardly!

FoxT

And the reason for the alternating substitution cypher is?

Byron85

FoxT wrote: »

And the reason for the alternating substitution cypher is?

To demonstrate just how dumb us mere Arts students are of course. Personally, I can barely read. I have no idea what i'm typing right now actually. Now I must be off to the Sociology Department to hand in some of my nonsensical and useless writings.;):D

Eliot Rosewater

Pi^2, I think you're tripping over yourself a little. On the one hand you're making the (good) argument that university should be about getting a rounded education instead of merely doing a course. But then you're dismissing Arts, which was designed with the goal of providing such a broad education. I think you're working off generalized stereotypes of Arts. These stereotypes do seem to be fair enough in describing the "lower" echelons of Arts students, but you have to admit that there are Arts students who are as passionate about their subject as you and I are about maths and Linux (despite your VMware heresy!).

FoxT wrote: »

And the reason for the alternating substitution cypher is?

You never accepted me as a friend on BookMooch! (Pi^2 has my back.)

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Pi^2, I think you're tripping over yourself a little. On the one hand you're making the (good) argument that university should be about getting a rounded education instead of merely doing a course. But then you're dismissing Arts, which was designed with the goal of providing such a broad education. I think you're working off generalized stereotypes of Arts. These stereotypes do seem to be fair enough in describing the "lower" echelons of Arts students, but you have to admit that there are Arts students who are as passionate about their subject as you and I are about maths and Linux (despite your VMware heresy!).



You never accepted me as a friend on BookMooch! (Pi^2 has my back.)

I used Linux once before and god was it tedious. I'm a Mac person now though so I have a better appreciation for it now. Not related to the thread topic at all but just though i'd throw it in! :P

FoxT

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

You never accepted me as a friend on BookMooch! (Pi^2 has my back.)

Oops - completely forgot about that :eek: Brought a box of them into Oxfam last weekend... still have a few though... will ping you after Christmas.

I do have a copy of Crime & Punishment lying around, might be appropriate in the circumstances....

FoxT

Byron85 wrote: »

Indeed. I get driven up to the gates every morning in my Bentley. ReacherCreature has his own personal lear jet. He's old money whereas i'm only new money unfortunately.

Also, I hope you realise that Arts covers a wide range of subjects.

I do realise that, indeed.

Do ye fall into the indigent or illegitimate category?

rebel girl 15

FoxT wrote: »

And the reason for the alternating substitution cypher is?

Showing off or just to annoy everyone

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Pi^2, I think you're tripping over yourself a little. On the one hand you're making the (good) argument that university should be about getting a rounded education instead of merely doing a course. But then you're dismissing Arts, which was designed with the goal of providing such a broad education. I think you're working off generalized stereotypes of Arts. These stereotypes do seem to be fair enough in describing the "lower" echelons of Arts students, but you have to admit that there are Arts students who are as passionate about their subject as you and I are about maths and Linux (despite your VMware heresy!).

I have to agree with that statement - think a lot of people here are working off them

Pi^2

And the reason for the alternating substitution cypher is?

There were a few reasons for the cypher.

1. I thought it would be a laugh.
2. I thought some people might enjoy it. Which they did.
3. I thought some people might be inspired to "break" the code. Which they were.
4. I wasn't too confident about what I had written as it was a bit overly nerdy so instead of just not posting it as it was, I figured I'd give people the option to work for the information within if they wanted it.
5. It was a social experiment.

Showing off or just to annoy everyone

I forgive you rebel girl 15. I understand that it is easier to insult someone than it is to consider things from their perspective.

Having said that, you were correct. I was indeed showing off. I was exhibiting how some people rise to a challenge and embrace lateral thinking and tackle/solve the problem. While others get narky.

Incidentally the title of this thread is "I hate people who diss Arts". You wouldn't catch me saying "I hate people who diss Science". Some people rise to a challenge. While others get narky.

Pi^2, I think you're tripping over yourself a little. On the one hand you're making the (good) argument that university should be about getting a rounded education instead of merely doing a course. But then you're dismissing Arts, which was designed with the goal of providing such a broad education. I think you're working off generalized stereotypes of Arts. These stereotypes do seem to be fair enough in describing the "lower" echelons of Arts students, but you have to admit that there are Arts students who are as passionate about their subject as you and I are about maths and Linux (despite your VMware heresy!).

I have to agree with that statement - think a lot of people here are working off them

I see your point about the generalized stereotypes and I raise you:

Stereotyping and stratification of a group is a necessary evil, since no human has the time or the knowledge to consider each individual in the group (unless its a small group!). So I use stereotypes because I must. I don't believe anything I have said indicates that I have made a mistake in my evaluation and that I am accidentally only describing the lower echelons.

Perhaps I have, but I regard any sweeping statement I have made to be about my attempted evaluation of an average Arts student which is one of the only meaningful approximations by which to consider a group.

Obviously our definition of the average is going to be different. But If my average is your lower echelons, then I have yet to meet anyone from your upper echelons! (Though this raises the issue of the scale of our own range of evaluation. Like when I say I'm feeling fine is that the same as you saying you're feeling sad.)

Oh and Arts may well have been designed to provide a broad education... but that does not mean it has been maintained for the same purpose.


Oh and here, Rosewater, I see how using VMware makes me a bit of a heretic, but I swear I'm actually dualbooting Windows 7, and Linux Mint. It's just sometimes I like to have them both open on different monitors at the same time and VMware allows this!

I used Linux once before and god was it tedious.

It feels a bit scrappy for a while alright. The rate at which the user-friendliness is accelerating is mind-boggling though. Can't wait to see what Mint and Ubuntu feel like in a few years time.


Isn't this thread exciting?! I'd love for the original poster to tell us how he feels now. Where ever you are man, we love you and we respect Arts.

Byron85

I'm not entirely sure I can even begin to respond to that without getting an infraction.

Pi^2

You really aren't doing yourself any favours either though as all you're doing is coming across as arrogant. I can speak some Polish. That doesn't mean i'm going to start writing in Polish on here as part of an "experiment in lateral thinking". Pull the other one.

Here, post in whatever language you want. I won't complain, I'll just lash it into google translate. Hang on, I didn't say "experiment in lateral thinking". I certainly used the word experiment and the phrase lateral thinking because they were applicable in context.

Experiment: the act of conducting a controlled test or investigation.

Lateral thinking: a heuristic for solving problems; you try to look at the problem from many angles instead of tackling it head-on.


You touched a nerve with "arrogant". Perhaps my wording hasn't always been the best but I'm dissappointed that you perceive me in such a way. I don't think I'm superior to anybody and I'm embaressed if that is how I have come across.

So to avoid any further misconceptions, I'm gonna leave this discussion.


Thanks everyone, it has sincerely been enlightening. Happy Christmas.

greenprincess

I have a degree in Arts from UCC and it has served me well
It really pissed me off when people at college ripped the piss out of arts, it was my first choice and I was thrilled I got it. Just dont let it get to you.

If you have extra ciricular activities on ur cv it'll make you stand out to employers.

I graduated 2009 and I had a really good job for a top company by sept so chin up

the_syco

Larkin91 wrote: »

I only have 13 hours a week with English and Maths Studies.

I'm not going to read the enitre thread, as I don't see the point of most Arts degrees. I say most, as Maths and a few others can be used in many different fields if used correctly, and can be done to awesome effect.

Byron85

the_syco wrote: »

I'm not going to read the enitre thread, as I don't see the point of most Arts degrees. I say most, as Maths and a few others can be used in many different fields if used correctly, and can be done to awesome effect.

:rolleyes:

greenprincess

greenprincess wrote: »

I have a degree in Arts from UCC and it has served me well
It really pissed me off when people at college ripped the piss out of arts, it was my first choice and I was thrilled I got it. Just dont let it get to you.

If you have extra ciricular activities on ur cv it'll make you stand out to employers.

I graduated 2009 and I had a really good job for a top company by sept so chin up

Go you greenprincess!!!:):) Thats what i like to hear. A past Arts student who is a sucess in life!:) I'm a first year student doing Arts in UCC, and even though it wasnt my first choice, i can honestly say im happy im doing it now.


Students studying Arts have to accept that they are going to get some sort of slagging, i join in to it really, because if i dont it will keep going on anyway and will save me the hassle of being and looking like a miserable cow haha.

I totally agree that extra ciricular activites on your cv make anyone stand out though. We could have a person with a degree in law and another person with a degree in arts going for the same job, and the Arts student could have been involved in waaaaaaaay more social activites and be a more likable person so therefore look like a far more employable candidate to an employer.


My friend is doing Arts and she got 545 in the l.c. Just prooves that its not a course that everyone puts down just coz 'they scraped the points' to get in.

UnionOfV

Deleted User wrote: »

I totally agree that extra ciricular activites on your cv make anyone stand out though. We could have a person with a degree in law and another person with a degree in arts going for the same job, and the Arts student could have been involved in waaaaaaaay more social activites and be a more likable person so therefore look like a far more employable candidate to an employer.

Unless they're planning to get into law. Which, it seems, is the crux of the debate - there are many jobs that arts students can and will find employment in, but their university education isn't going to prepare them for these jobs. So it's only natural that students who are busy preparing for a future post will look down on students in education for the sake of it.

Byron85

UnionOfV wrote: »

Unless they're planning to get into law. Which, it seems, is the crux of the debate - there are many jobs that arts students can and will find employment in, but their university education isn't going to prepare them for these jobs. So it's only natural that students who are busy preparing for a future post will look down on students in education for the sake of it.

Also it's the fact that there is this inclination to believe that Arts degrees attract idiots. Well i'm sorry to pop that particular bubble for anyone but there are idiots across all academic spectrums. As for the work load, I know of plenty of Engineering and Law students in varying years of study who have roughly the same workload as Arts students. This kind of intellectual snobbery which is so routinely thrown around gets you nowhere, even more so when someone is trying to do it to me when they're substantially younger than me.

So in conclusion and to be frank, a dick is a dick regardless of what they're studying, be it Engineering or Arts.

Richard Cranium

Here's a question- what happens if you want to be a journalist, or a sociologist, or a secondary school teacher (of Geography or English, say)?

You can't argue that a medicine or engineering degree will better equip you to analyse Shakespeare, or report on the All Ireland or whatever it may be, than an arts degree.

Despite what someone seemed to be suggesting in one of those ciphers, skills gained from an arts degree is not a ("tiny," was the word used, I think) proper subset of skills gained from a science degree. To suggest otherwise is naive.

Cian92

Richard Cranium wrote: »

Here's a question- what happens if you want to be a journalist

Choose a course entitled journalism.

Corkfeen

Cian92 wrote: »

Choose a course entitled journalism.

You'll actually find that plenty of mainstream journalists have degrees in arts rather than Journalism.:D

amadan1993

realistically this so called 'arts' is the only degree that allows you to study a language or indeed two languages......
in Cork anyway

Richard Cranium

Cian92 wrote: »

Choose a course entitled journalism.

Yes, exactly. This will give you a B.A.


Guess what the "A" stands for...

x43r0

amadan1993 wrote: »

realistically this so called 'arts' is the only degree that allows you to study a language or indeed two languages......
in Cork anyway

What about the BComm w/ Spanish/German/French/Italian? Or the law courses of a similar nature?

West10th

It's not that bad if you did art for the leaving cert.

karlog

Is Arts really that hard when all you have to do is walk into the toilets and grab a degree.