I hate people who diss Arts

corcaighabu92

I hate people who are like this. What the **** is wrong with them. Ok, fair enough with an Arts degree you might find it difficult to get employment but that doesnt mean it is an easy course. Maybe they should see what its like to do all those essays.

Pi^2

Chill out dude. Happy Christmas.

TanG411

I take the jokes with a pinch of salt.
What makes people assume it's an easy course is the amount of hours. I only have 13 hours a week with English and Maths Studies. However, it does take work. For anyone to get a 1st or a high 2.1, it does take a lot of reading for English, plus a lot of practise and revision for Maths. Plus those subjects are from different depratments altogether, so timetable clashes are common (I couldn't go to one of my maths tutorials because I had English at the time). If they don't clash, then you have a lot of running around to do to get between lectures in time.

Whoops, I'm going off topic ranting about my subjects. To the OP, just brush off the jokes. We probably have a better chance finding a job then someone with an engineering degree.

smokingman

Larkin91 wrote: »

We probably have a better chance finding a job then someone with an engineering degree.

'Course you do, McDonalds are always looking for someone to clean the jacks!

TanG411

smokingman wrote: »

'Course you do, McDonalds are always looking for someone to clean the jacks!

Better then getting the dole.

I think.

Monty Burnz

Larkin91 wrote: »

We probably have a better chance finding a job then someone with an engineering degree.

English you are studying, is it?

Bonzo-Reborn

in fairness there are very little hours, it's the library hours that are put in which determine how difficult or easy you make the course. People breeze through arts with 2:2's and don't mind...those who want a 2:1 or 1:1 average work a lot harder than students in some other courses. Reading time is what gets me, researching for a month for an essay and then retpying it maybe three times to make sure you get the grade...whats heartbreaking is when you do this some idiot can walk into the library the due date, open a book and write an essay. It might not be as good but theyll still pass. Thats what boils my blood.

This has sort of turned into an arts rant thread.

Plautus

To echo what others have said: anyone who is seriously suggesting that Arts is a waste of time, or a 'doss' isn't fair-minded or worth paying attention to. The good news, I suppose, is that most people making the slur don't really seriously intend it.

Certainly, any engineering, pharmacy, architecture or law graduate holding forth same is a black hole of hubris if they aren't joking. Those sectors are dead at present and yet would have been tipped highly as 'productive' or 'employable' in the last decade. If anything, the highly vocational and specialized nature of those degrees will make it difficult for those graduates to acquire a completely different set of qualifications without time and money on their side.

Humanities never offered easy jobs, lucre/what-have-you - simply the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake to broaden the mind. Many are the students studying non-humanities subjects whose ignorance of the world around them (past or present) is either shockingly simplistic or non-existent. The benefit of a humanities degree can be evidenced in their ignorance (willful or otherwise.) Naturally, I speak in generalities; and likewise my complete ignorance of how to make buildings safe, undertake judicial review or tell you about the workings of mitochondriae demonstrates the serious benefit of non-humanities disciplines.

As for it being possible to coast through a humanities degree: sure. Consequently pass or low-honours grades (thirds or 2:2) aren't rated too highly within the disciplines that make up Arts.

TanG411

Monty Burnz wrote: »

English you are studying, is it?

Ya I does English. Why?

UpTheSlashers

Larkin91 wrote: »

Ya I does English. Why?

No reasons, just axing.

PhatPiggins

Doesn't matter much what primary degree you do any more as the majority are doing postgrads.

Showing my age here but when I was a kid the leaving cert was everything, by the time I got to uni (the first time) get your degree and your good to go, now unless your in a specialised area a masters is a minimum before a lot of employers will even consider you.

rebel girl 15

corcaighabu92 wrote: »

I hate people who are like this. What the **** is wrong with them. Ok, fair enough with an Arts degree you might find it difficult to get employment but that doesnt mean it is an easy course. Maybe they should see what its like to do all those essays.

And every other course doesn't have those essays??

You really shouldn't leave things get to you like the other posters doing arts. I agree with Phat - you need a masters to get work, I'll prob end up doing one either straight after I finish if I don't get employment or doing one part time.

dregin

Larkin91 wrote: »

We probably have a better chance finding a job then someone with an engineering degree.

You're studying English and came out with THAT? Sorry, but you have bigger problems than someone slagging your course.

KnifeWRENCH

dregin wrote: »

You're studying English and came out with THAT? Sorry, but you have bigger problems than someone slagging your course.

Yes, yes....he used "then" instead of "than". Crime of the century.

Get over it and move on, people. No more picking apart another user's spelling or grammar.

Pi^2

Yes, yes....he used "then" instead of "than". Crime of the century.

Get over it and move on, people. No more picking apart another user's spelling or grammar.

I think the issue is that an arts student does not have a better chance of finding a job than someone with an engineering degree.


I think Arts is a waste of time, purely because college in general is a waste of time.

x43r0

Pi^2 wrote: »

I think Arts is a waste of time, purely because college in general is a waste of time.

ffs, seriously?




Anyway, I don't see the arts degree as the main value but the person that it produces. Now more than ever I see companies using personality as a key factor in whether an applicant becomes a new hire.

I'm going into the grad programme for an investment bank next summer and along with myself (comp sci + BIS masters - fair enough specific enough courses) they've hired a music student and a philosophy graduate

ReacherCreature

Pi^2 wrote: »

I think the issue is that an arts student does not have a better chance of finding a job than someone with an engineering degree.


I think Arts is a waste of time, purely because college in general is a waste of time.

Enlighten us wise one.

Pi^2

Enlighten us wise one.

I'm merely pointing out that college is hopelessly inefficient. And this goes for all education institutions so I'm not taking a pop at our UCC in particular.

I'm not necessarily saying that spending 3 or 4 years to get a piece of paper is a waste of time.


...but it is.

FoxT

corcaighabu92 wrote: »

I hate people who are like this. What the **** is wrong with them. Ok, fair enough with an Arts degree you might find it difficult to get employment but that doesnt mean it is an easy course. Maybe they should see what its like to do all those essays.

Ohh, my! Lets have a quick look...

"Ok, fair enough with an Arts degree you might find it difficult to get employment"... ever thought there might be a valid reason for this? What can an arts graduate actually do? or , to rephrase, What can an arts graduate actually do, that will generate money for his/her employer?

"but that doesnt mean it is an easy course" ... hard course, or are ye thick? discuss!

"Maybe they should see what its like to do all those essays." This is the best Laugh out Loud moment I have had on boards today! You really ought to say this at your next job interview!!! Absolutely deadly!

rebel girl 15

Pi^2 wrote: »

I'm merely pointing out that college is hopelessly inefficient. And this goes for all education institutions so I'm not taking a pop at our UCC in particular.

I'm not necessarily saying that spending 3 or 4 years to get a piece of paper is a waste of time.


...but it is.

And would that opinion of yours cover lower education as well as higher education - that education is a waste altogether?? All education institutions is a pretty sweeping statement - care to back that up with hard fact, or were you talking solely about higher education?

FoxT

I think that arts courses do have value. They offer real opportunities to develop an understanding of culture, Fine Art, Communications, History, and other subjects. I am sure that many people, including myself, would relish the opportunity to study at least some of these to degree level.

In my view it is also fair to say that employers generally underestimate the value that Arts Graduates with the right attitude can bring to the workplace.




The big tripwire in the OP is the statement that

"Maybe they should see what its like to do all those essays."

This whinging serves only to enforce the popular stereotype that Arts Students are the indigent & sometime illegitimate progeny of the idle rich. I don't know where you are in your studies but clearly you have not absorbed enough to put forward a sound argument. While you are slaving over all those difficult essays, what are your colleagues in engineering, med., Law, etc., doing?


Finally, UCC, in my view, uses its arts curriculum as a cynical business endeavour. They attract students who either do not know what their vocation is, or, who come from overseas for a good milking of eu10-20k per annum. The arts faculty there is notorious for internecine warfare amongst its staff, which often ends up before the higher courts at huge expense.
For the latest wheeze , google "fruitbatgate".

You can be assured that as College fees rise, parents will start demanding real value for money. Even though I live in Cork, UCC would by no means be my first choice of third level college for any of my children.

allprops

Wasn't fruitbatgate a science affair?

FoxT

Hmmm, I must concede that minor point. He is in fact, a Lecturer in Behavioural Science. I wonder if he sets hard essays for his students?

FoxT

Pi^2 wrote: »

I'm merely pointing out that college is hopelessly inefficient. And this goes for all education institutions so I'm not taking a pop at our UCC in particular.

I'm not necessarily saying that spending 3 or 4 years to get a piece of paper is a waste of time.


...but it is.

I agree with the first sentence, 100%

With regard to the second sentence, I hold that "spending 3 or 4 years to get a piece of paper is a waste of time" is also absolutely true. If you are passionate about your subject, you will succeed. If you are doing it just to get the piece of paper, you would be better off quitting college & doing what you love.

Byron85

FoxT wrote: »

This whinging serves only to enforce the popular stereotype that Arts Students are the indigent & sometime illegitimate progeny of the idle rich. I don't know where you are in your studies but clearly you have not absorbed enough to put forward a sound argument. While you are slaving over all those difficult essays, what are your colleagues in engineering, med., Law, etc., doing?


Finally, UCC, in my view, uses its arts curriculum as a cynical business endeavour. They attract students who either do not know what their vocation is, or, who come from overseas for a good milking of eu10-20k per annum. The arts faculty there is notorious for internecine warfare amongst its staff, which often ends up before the higher courts at huge expense.
For the latest wheeze , google "fruitbatgate".

You can be assured that as College fees rise, parents will start demanding real value for money. Even though I live in Cork, UCC would by no means be my first choice of third level college for any of my children.

Indeed. I get driven up to the gates every morning in my Bentley. ReacherCreature has his own personal lear jet. He's old money whereas i'm only new money unfortunately.

Also, I hope you realise that Arts covers a wide range of subjects.

ReacherCreature

Pi^2 wrote: »

I'm merely pointing out that college is hopelessly inefficient. And this goes for all education institutions so I'm not taking a pop at our UCC in particular.

I'm not necessarily saying that spending 3 or 4 years to get a piece of paper is a waste of time.


...but it is.

That is a rubbish argument for an 'anti-college' sentiment.

Pi^2

That is a rubbish argument for an 'anti-college' sentiment.

Indeed, any lone statement is a rubbish argument. I'm not anti-college, I merely consider its implementation to be sub optimal. I'll throw a few suggestions out there so.

Efficiency

Most of the modules I have taken in UCC are 2 classes a week, i.e. 24 one hour lectures a term. What is stopping these 24 hours being presented in a 2 or 3 day intensive course early on in the year? Why does a relatively small amount of material have to be dragged out so much?

Why do I have to wait for a lecturer to hand out his notes throughout the year? And likewise for taking down notes off the white board. I would read ahead if I actually had the material. Of course I do "read ahead" by spending time reading relevant books and online resources. But, invariably I end up going too deep into a topic or unbeknownst to me the lecturer will treat a topic slightly differently (by the time he/she covers it in a few weeks time).

Here's another caveat I have with college. Suppose I am prepared to take one of my summer exams right now. Like, I have a real interest in a particular module and I am always studying it in my own time and I'm absolutely ready to ace the exam. I have to wait months to take it. Think about that - what is actually preventing me from taking it now?

Some of you are thinking "hold on, everyone has to take the exam at the same time. that's standardisation". But where, for instance, is the standardisation between a student who takes an exam last May and a student who takes the same exam next May? Someday those two students could be up against each other for the same job... and, assuming the exams were not identical, objectively one of them must have been easier. That's some standardisation right there. Consider that example for the leaving cert too. So in answer to my "what is preventing me from taking it now" question... Convention. An unwillingness to rock the boat.

The two aspects of college

There are two types of people in the world, those who divide things into two types and those who don't. I consider college to be an amalgamation of two things - a playground and a place of learning. I do believe both aspects are important and inseparable but I think the correct balance is not being struck in UCC.

The general vibe I get is that you have to go out and actively have fun and the hard work and study will just happen. Whereas it would be nicer if hard work was what was actively sought after and fun is gonna happen anyway. I've probably worded this all wrong, but it might be summed up by the following example: If instead of a pretty girl handing me a flier for Gorby's she handed me a flier saying "All your classmates are studying really hard, even if they say they're not".

Where is the culture of one-up-man-ship and academic competition? For once I would like to hear two UCC students arguing about who will do better in the next exam as opposed to who will drink more alcohol once the exam is finished.

Eliot Rosewater

Pi^2 wrote: »

Most of the modules I have taken in UCC are 2 classes a week, i.e. 24 one hour lectures a term. What is stopping these 24 hours being presented in a 2 or 3 day intensive course early on in the year? Why does a relatively small amount of material have to be dragged out so much?

I think that's just the way Universities have evolved. I suppose theoretically your free time is supposed to be spent studying and broadening your mind.

Whatever about the timing issues, I'd much prefer if a notion that you can/should investigate things in your spare time was built into modules. For example, I do a course in C++ computer programming. We have an assignment for after Christmas that involves writing a computer program to work with maths matrices. Having done a bit of C++ in my spare time I know that the way the lecturer has asked for the program to be written is conceptually very poor. But I can't really bring my own research to the table and do it the better way, as I have to toe the line and do things the way the lecturer has told me to.

In another one of our modules, Chaos, we're given a free hand in some questions to do whatever we want (within the field, of course!) which is nice.

Pi^2 wrote: »

Where is the culture of one-up-man-ship and academic competition? For once I would like to hear two UCC students arguing about who will do better in the next exam as opposed to will drink more alcohol once the exam is finished.

I know this is totally politically incorrect (and perhaps a little insulting to some), but I don't the huge influx of people into university as being necessarily good. Traditionally universities were solely academic institutions and this created an academic ethos and environment that fertilised intellectual development. Nowadays college is primarily seen amongst a lot of people as a place for craic, instead of a place to develop and widen your mind.

Unfortunately once government (and societal) policy is to shove as many people as possible into university, regardless of whether they are of an academic bent, this isn't going to change.

x43r0

FoxT wrote: »

The arts faculty there is notorious for internecine warfare amongst its staff, which often ends up before the higher courts at huge expense.
For the latest wheeze , google "fruitbatgate".

That particular case occurred between two staff working in the faculty of medicine

Pi^2

I think that's just the way Universities have evolved.

I agree, but I think that is the bad type of evolution, i.e. The reactive type rather than the active. Something akin to the music industry not keeping up with/resisting modern technology and now look at the state of it.

I suppose theoretically your free time is supposed to be spent studying and broadening your mind.

Point taken. But how free is this free time? For instance, with your programming example - you could be making significant progress with your approach to the problem and in the back of your mind you're thinking "he might fail me for not doing exactly what he wants".

It's the same for studying, you can be studying and enjoying a subject matter but in the back of your mind you have to wonder "as enlightening as this is, will I be examined on it at all". And then comes the decision, "should I bother learning this because it's useful for my understanding of this subject and possibly useful to my career, or is it useless because it won't be on the test tomorrow".


So, I ask, what is better, to get a thorough education by exploting all the available resources to you, really mastering your field and applying your knowledge of it and receive a 2.2 degree in the end. Or get a 1.1 by cramming exam papers and focusing all your attention on what is examinable and ignoring everything else?


I would personally rather the education and the 2.2. But as I was trying to say earlier, if I had all the lecturers notes early on in the year, I could work that into my attempt to actually learn the subject. Hence a 1.1 and the great education would be much more attainable.

I know this is totally politically incorrect (and perhaps a little insulting to some), but I don't the huge influx of people into university as being necessarily good. Traditionally universities were solely academic institutions and this created an academic ethos and environment that fertilised intellectual development. Nowadays college is primarily seen amongst a lot of people as a place for craic, instead of a place to develop and widen your mind.

Unfortunately once government (and societal) policy is to shove as many people as possible into university, regardless of whether they are of an academic bent, this isn't going to change.

You're on the ball there. The initial instinct is to think "it's wonderful that more people are going to college". Is it wonderful when someone pours more water in your Ribena?

Steba

Pi^2 wrote: »

You're on the ball there. The initial instinct is to think "it's wonderful that more people are going to college". Is it wonderful when someone pours more water in your Ribena?

Wiki wrote:

Ireland has one of the best education systems in the world according to the independent IMD World Competitiveness Yearbook 2009 (ranks 8th)

I know thats almost 2 years old, but....We can't be doing much wrong if we'r ranked 8th?