Moving guns through town ?

Villafan6

Hi, guys I have a few friends who want to go to the office block in Tallaght, but is it ok If they have their guns in a box without battery, or mags in them, is it ok to bring them through town.

CpcRc

If they have their certs to prove their guns are under 1 Joule and muzzle caps it wouldn't hurt to have those.

I think that there used to be an airsoft and the law thread but can't find it, sorry

Villafan6

I don't think they have either of them, I wonder if they can still bring them

CpcRc

They should be ok. I've been advised that the muzzle caps should be used in public so that they do not represent a real firearm. Thats always the last thing an airsofter wants. But by storing the mags and batteries separately they are taking some of the steps that you're to take when transporting airsoft equipment. I usually use a muzzle cap, store the mags and battery elsewhere and keep a copy of the cert when moving mine. Here's a thread thats aimed at beginners but talks about the law a little bit. Hopefully it can help.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055163577

Villafan6

thanks man it helps, I'm just not sure if they'd get away with it without a cert or cap

brotherrabbit

Lads the best advise is to have proof on the ratings, have mussel caps and have them in carrier bags so no one sees them and gets spooked. As harmless as they are they may alert members of the public who aren't affiliated with air-soft
Have fun!

Villafan6

Thanks, but I really need to know if they'll be ok without a cert or cap

The_ChiefDUB

I would recommend carrying their AEGs in non-descript bags and making sure that any gear such as tac vests etc is out of sight in sports bags or something similar. I travel to sites on my bike and have a plain rifle bag which I can wear as a backpack- the bag is black and rectangular rather than rifle shaped so no one would suspect what it is.
So long as they are smart and discrete about what they are doing there should be no problem.

Leftyflip

They should be, just if you **have** to carry them in the box, wrap the box up well with a black bag and have proof that you're an airsofter or atleast not an eejit.

andy_g

Simple way gun case (soft/hard) batteries out of the RIF and in another bag along with mags and bb's

moggser

well to be honest and im sure Brian and the lads will post here
they dont allow lads show up with stuff in box's its gotta be in a proper bag for transporting and for their own safety and well being make sure they have a bag it will save them a lot of unnecessary attention

se conman

The AEG's cannot be visible to the public , it would also be advisable not to carry the AEG's in boxes with a picture of a gun on the outside (original box).The best way to carry an AEG is in a hard gun case but if you are using public transport , you are better off using a holdall or backpack or something that hides the fact that you are carrying a "gun".One guy who goes to THE OFFICE BLOCK and uses public transport carries his AEG in a violin case.

Villafan6

Thanks for the help, They planned to use a box without a gun logo anyway

swiftblade

By what do you mean "bring them through town" ? Slung over your shoulder or in a propper case/bag?
Once they are out of sight of the general public there would be no reason not to. You're not going to walk into town in full camo and vests by any chance? That would be a no, no too

Villafan6

These guys are relatively new and will be wearing camo trousers but a normal jumper, so there ok there anyway, and they just have an old box that they want to put the gun (on it's own, no mags, bb's etc) into and wrap it really well with tape.

brotherrabbit

Villafan6 wrote: »

Thanks, but I really need to know if they'll be ok without a cert or cap

If your stopped by the guards their is a distinct possibility with out documents the guns will be confiscated..The lads are spot on..bad them properly, seperate the batteries and mags. ya dont wanna see your investment locked up!

johnn

I transport two massive GUNZ with me at all times :cool:

andy_g

se conman wrote: »

The AEG's cannot be visible to the public , it would also be advisable not to carry the AEG's in boxes with a picture of a gun on the outside (original box).The best way to carry an AEG is in a hard gun case but if you are using public transport , you are better off using a holdall or backpack or something that hides the fact that you are carrying a "gun".One guy who goes to THE OFFICE BLOCK and uses public transport carries his AEG in a violin case.

Im guessing thats Kron (Ciaran)

Villafan6

Hopefully there guns won't be taken

se conman

I don't know Kron , but i pissed myself laughing when I saw the case (gangster) but it is very practical.

Keegan

I transport mine around in a guitar case.

Villafan6

If only I had a guitar case, haha

NakedDex

CpcRc wrote: »

If they have their certs to prove their guns are under 1 Joule and muzzle caps it wouldn't hurt to have those.

Villafan6 wrote: »

thanks man it helps, I'm just not sure if they'd get away with it without a cert or cap

brotherrabbit wrote: »

Lads the best advise is to have proof on the ratings, have mussel caps and have them in carrier bags so no one sees them and gets spooked. As harmless as they are they may alert members of the public who aren't affiliated with air-soft
Have fun!

I have no idea where the idea that having a piece of paper on you that says it's under 1J would do anything for you if you were stopped and asked to display the bag contents. I can make one of those right here with no effort. Heck, if I spent ten minutes on it I could make it look official. I can make one up right now for a WE P90 GBBr, a device that hasn't made it past prototyping yet (though we can hope...).
If anyone has told you a "1J cert" somehow has any meaning, relevance or legal sway, they're misleading you at best, or outright lying for another purpose at worst.
I have only once ever received such a piece of paper, from a store in the UK who were shipping a rifle to me several years ago. On the paper it clearly stated that the results shown (ten-shot string with results for each) were only valid from time of leaving the store, to time of delivery. It also stated it was for reference only, and had no authority.

I keep hearing this "1J cert" come up, especially with newer players, and it really pïsses me off. I have no idea who is spreading it but it'll land someone in trouble some day, in a situation just like this.

moggser wrote: »

well to be honest and im sure Brian and the lads will post here
they dont allow lads show up with stuff in box's its gotta be in a proper bag for transporting and for their own safety and well being make sure they have a bag it will save them a lot of unnecessary attention

I think this pretty much solves the box question anyway.
A rifle slip should be one of the first accessories you purchase if you intend on skirmishing, really. They're reasonably inexpensive, offer protection to the rifle, convenient storage and appropriate transport. Most airsoft retailers have them, as do most surplus stores (albeit the latter is a tad more expensive).
I wouldn't attempt to go through a city with any airsoft equipment without one, and if the sites rules state you must have one or you'll be turned away, well what more reason do you need.

I'd like to note, also, that while muzzle caps aren't a bad idea, they're not essential. I've never used them, personally, and there's no requirement to do so from sites or authorities. They're usually the first thing to get lost from a new gun too, so if you're already missing it, I wouldn't worry.

CpcRc

NakedDex wrote: »

If anyone has told you a "1J cert" somehow has any meaning, relevance or legal sway, they're misleading you at best, or outright lying for another purpose at worst.

I know that the 1J cert has no authoritative or official standing, it is just a piece of paper after all. But if you cooperate with the Gardai, keep your air rifle out of sight of the public and stored properly and have one of these then you should be a lot less likely to get into trouble.
I apologise if it sounded like I was saying that you just have to flash one of these to the Gardai and expect everything to be ok. It doesn't work like that, and someone will get in trouble if they truly believe that, once again I'm sorry if I misled anyone. The Gardai can chrono any airsoft gun they wish in order to confirm that it is legal. I just like to carry one around to show that I bought from an official retailer and I'm always willing to cooperate in the event that I am stopped.
Has anyone started a thread which says exactly how airsoft guns should be transported according to Irish law? That should be made a sticky in the questions section so that everyone could find it easily.

NakedDex

That's the problem you see, there are no "official" retailers. Essentially you're just using a meaningless bit of paper to say the rifle might have been producing those figures at one point.

I'm not having a go at you, but someone is spreading that having such a document is all you need, and be damned with what anyone says. I've had people specifically ask me for them in the past (in my capacity selling them) and then get indignant when I said such paperwork was meaningless and useless, telling me they were informed otherwise (by someone I won't name) and inferring other things if they didn't provide same.

CpcRc

Ok. Thats why I think there should be a sticky on boards to solve this problem. Unfortunately when it comes to certain matters of airsoft, transport in this case, people only know what other people have told them. And this does not make it law. Might the Mods consider this please? Or if there's a thread open already can someone post a link?

NakedDex

I believe there's already a note about it in the getting started section. That's from memory though, so I may be incorrect.

Inari

The cert that's popular with the new players is more than likely the idea of MIA; providing the SKAN chrono results to specify that the defice is sub 1j, and that if you don't tamper with it that it's guaranteed, or certified, legal.

I'd wager that it's the cause

NakedDex

Certified as such at the point it left the store. There's nothing to say one way or another that the item hasn't been altered beyond this point. The only thing it proves is that the chrono read those values.
I could go home tonight, chrono one of my rifles and get x reading. If I leave the spring under stress (such as by firing full auto without releasing the spring after by firing a single round in semi), I'll get a different value the next day. If I test it in a warm room, then a cold room, I'll get different values. If I know it's hot and deliberately test it using heavier bb's without recalibrating for them, I'll get a misleading reading. If it's gas, and I use 134a instead of Green gas, or Green instead of CO2 etc, I'll get a potentially misleading reason.
See where I'm going with this?

It's not a guarantee of maximum energy, it's an indication of output energy at a specific time. It's being touted as a be-all and end-all scrap of paper which should be the go-to reference at all times.

Inari

NakedDex wrote: »

Certified as such at the point it left the store. There's nothing to say one way or another that the item hasn't been altered beyond this point. The only thing it proves is that the chrono read those values.
I could go home tonight, chrono one of my rifles and get x reading. If I leave the spring under stress (such as by firing full auto without releasing the spring after by firing a single round in semi), I'll get a different value the next day. If I test it in a warm room, then a cold room, I'll get different values. If I know it's hot and deliberately test it using heavier bb's without recalibrating for them, I'll get a misleading reading. If it's gas, and I use 134a instead of Green gas, or Green instead of CO2 etc, I'll get a potentially misleading reason.
See where I'm going with this?

It's not a guarantee of maximum energy, it's an indication of output energy at a specific time. It's being touted as a be-all and end-all scrap of paper which should be the go-to reference at all times.

No no, I know all that - I share your opinion. I was just letting you know where the idea of the cert likely came from

MonkeyGuy

I would agree it started with MIA. No disrespect like I think it's a great idea, but it's useless without some legal backing. At first I thought it would be very helpful, as long as the seal isn't broken and I had that record sheet, it was their responsibilty to downgrade it if necessary. Then I opened it and realized the seal was preventing me from accessing the barrel and hop up, but I could easily pull out the piston and spring etc and, if I really wanted to, put in a more powerful spring.

As for transport, I just carry small guns in a gear bag and larger ones in a box. There should be no reason for the guards to ask to see what's inside and, even if they do, once you explain what it is there should be no reason for them to confiscate your gun. My understanding of the law is that they just shouldn't be visible to the public.

NakedDex

Yes, I know, but I wanted to clarify some of the reasons it's essentially redundant the moment it leaves the shop.

MonkeyGuy

NakedDex wrote: »

Yes, I know, but I wanted to clarify some of the reasons it's essentially redundant the moment it leaves the shop.

Yeah I get that. Well I suppose it's no different than customs testing gas guns with CO2 and seizing them because they're over the limit. I'm not saying we should lie I'm totally in favour of the 1j limit which is why I think a cert is a great idea.

NakedDex

Sorry, that was directed at the last comment on the previous page.

I'm in favour of the 1J limit too, which is why the cert is actually quite dangerous if relied on. If people start to take it as gospel, then it makes it very easy to simply carry it with a rifle that's been upgraded beyond the 1J limit and simply claim ignorance if/when they're caught out by a site or by authorities.

sealgaire

THEY ARE TOYS, FFS!

Stercus Accidit

Of course they have to be covered in a proper bag and a 'cert' is worthless once the gun leaves the shop that sold it.

They aren't toys, they are RIF's by law now.

CpcRc

I know its a little OT,but:

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I would agree it started with MIA. No disrespect like I think it's a great idea, but it's useless without some legal backing. At first I thought it would be very helpful, as long as the seal isn't broken and I had that record sheet, it was their responsibilty to downgrade it if necessary. Then I opened it and realized the seal was preventing me from accessing the barrel and hop up, but I could easily pull out the piston and spring etc and, if I really wanted to, put in a more powerful spring.

Are you talking about the seal that MIA are supposed to place on the mechbox every time they chrono an aeg? Oddysairsoft put up a video before showing how they place a security sticker on the mechbox that leaves a mark if removed. This is so that if someone tries to modify the gun afterwards, there will be a mark left behind to prove they opened the gun. But this is more so to prove that if you're caught with a gun over 1J then it's not their fault because they didn't sell you an over 1J gun.

Skip to 2:37 on the video where he starts to discuss it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdKWLkUyqM

SNAKEDOC

anybody who is going airsofting should have a proper case or bag for their aeg. anybody carrying their aeg in the original box in a black sack should be shot with their aeg. the rule brian has is spot on no admission without a bag. i have a hard case but you can get a bag for a score in most bag shops that an aeg can fit into. no need to be carrying a box around, as you are going through town i presume you are using the luas i suggest bringing your camo gear in a bag and changing their. ample space at the site

NakedDex

sealgaire wrote: »

THEY ARE TOYS, FFS!

A fire axe is safety equipment, a chainsaw is a tool and a carving knife is a utensil. They all have safe purposes but potential to cause panic in public and be grounds for an arrest. That's why you take precautions.

Besides as Stercus said, they're not toys. By legal definition, they're Replica Imitation Firearms, or RIFs. Anyone brandishing one in public - for benign or malicious purposes - will be charged as though it were a real firearm. A further reason to take all necessary precautions.

Thanks for wading in, buh-bye now.

hrta

If you want to be as safe as you can, call in to your local garda station, tell them your travel details and time's, contact number of the site your visiting, your contact details, get him to sign it in the day book, and get his number, make sure all RIF's are in bags,

But at the end of the day, even if you had a license, the garda that stops you, has every right to take it off you, and to check all these details, and if it checks out, they will return them to you, so be very nice and answer all his questions.

Paul.

andy_g

sealgaire wrote: »

THEY ARE TOYS, FFS!

sealgaire.
Airsoft devices are classed as RIFS under the law. please dont post this crap on the airsoft forum. if you wish to complain about toys im sure there is a toy forum somewhere for you.

Failure to adhere to the forum charter again will result in a ban.

MonkeyGuy

CpcRc wrote: »

I know its a little OT,but:



Are you talking about the seal that MIA are supposed to place on the mechbox every time they chrono an aeg? Oddysairsoft put up a video before showing how they place a security sticker on the mechbox that leaves a mark if removed. This is so that if someone tries to modify the gun afterwards, there will be a mark left behind to prove they opened the gun. But this is more so to prove that if you're caught with a gun over 1J then it's not their fault because they didn't sell you an over 1J gun.

Skip to 2:37 on the video where he starts to discuss it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdKWLkUyqM

Yeah I'm pretty sure I had that right. I was just saying that my experience of it is on a BAR 10 and I could have put in a more powerful spring without leaving a mark because of it's positioning.

CpcRc

Oh right. I've only got AEGs from them and the seal was on the side of the gearbox so that if it were opened up the seal would come off.

Leftyflip

Doesn't leave a mark if you know what you're doing...

MonkeyGuy

Leftyflip wrote: »

Doesn't leave a mark if you know what you're doing...

That's the kind of thing that makes it totally useless!

Puding

the only way the system could even remotely work is if gearboxes started being welded together similar to the practice in Germany, and i do not think anyone wants to go down that path

also its perfectly posible to increase a devices fps without touching the inside of gearbox

as other have said the cert is only valved for one moment in time

MagicIRL

I've just trolled through this forum and Im as lost as when I first started?

To sum it up, in my opinion, from what I have just read;

I can use any public transport/walk through any town with my AEG aslong as the AEG is in a carrybag/hardcase (i.e. Guitar Bag [Although, is that not attemmting to conceal an RIF?]) and the magazines/batteries/bbs and other equipment is kept in a sports bag and out of sight.

I would still like some IAA clarification of how to transport these things around, I'll most likely e-mail them about it in a few, but it all seems rather "chancing-your-arm" at this stage. Everyone seems to be sayings X, Y and Z in regards to how they transport aegs, not how you legally should, and thus Im confused.

NakedDex

I have no idea where you're getting confused, it's fairly clear-cut.

To transport any RIF's through anything remotely resembling a public place they need to be appropriate carry cases (hard or soft) which do not arouse public concern (no point in using a plain black case with a big sticker that says "I have a gun in this bag").
There's no legal aspect to it apart from the section of the act stating that RIF's should not be seen in public. Technically this allows you to use the retail box, but the site which you intend on travelling to has a rule against allowing anyone carrying their rifles in such packaging into the site, which leaves you with the aforementioned option of a carry case.

Using a guitar case is concealing an RIF, but that's the entire point. This isn't some sort of breach of an American style "concealed carry" law, it's simple, innocuous transport. I have one particular rifle case that actually regularly gets mistake for a guitar case, so it clearly doesn't matter greatly.


So in confusion-free summary; Get a rifle case. Use it. End of.

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

That's the kind of thing that makes it totally useless!

Case. In. Point.

Knight990

Big black plastic bags, cover them up. Then you're grand.

Lemming

Knight990 wrote: »

Big black plastic bags, cover them up. Then you're grand.

And if they rip?

Knight990

Lemming wrote: »

And if they rip?

Several black plastic bags you can buy strong ones, if you double bag them they should hold up fine.