No sockets in bathrooms, why?

enda1

So is there consensus that with respect to modern wiring and safety standards, we should be allowed to have sockets (other than the shaver socket device) in bathrooms?

Solair

enda1 wrote: »

So is there consensus that with respect to modern wiring and safety standards, we should be allowed to have sockets (other than the shaver socket device) in bathrooms?

Well, it's a pretty conservative setup that we have here.
I suppose part of the rational may be that, certainly in a British context, where RCD protected sockets were not generally used at all until very recently, you could risk things like sockets being added by DIY enthusiasts or bathroom installers who didn't have a clue what they were doing and had seen them in more modern installations.

Also, most Irish / UK bathrooms still only have non-RCD protected lighting circuits! So, the shaver socket is typically supplied from that. Hence the need for isolation transformers etc.

Even if it were allowed, retrofitting sockets to existing bathrooms would actually require fairly serious wiring as you'd have to take a feed from an RCD-protected circuit.

enda1

Solair wrote: »

Well, it's a pretty conservative setup that we have here.
I suppose part of the rational may be that, certainly in a British context, where RCD protected sockets were not generally used at all until very recently, you could risk things like sockets being added by DIY enthusiasts or bathroom installers who didn't have a clue what they were doing and had seen them in more modern installations.

Also, most Irish / UK bathrooms still only have non-RCD protected lighting circuits! So, the shaver socket is typically supplied from that. Hence the need for isolation transformers etc.

Even if it were allowed, retrofitting sockets to existing bathrooms would actually require fairly serious wiring as you'd have to take a feed from an RCD-protected circuit.

So. Yes then?

Solair

enda1 wrote: »

So. Yes then?

If done correctly, I don't really see what the big deal is. Last time I checked the laws of physics in Ireland and Britain were the same as Germany and France, despite what some English people will tell you!

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

Well, the only serious risk would be if you managed to connect yourself between live and neutral and in such a way that the current flowed across your body.

Which isn't impossible, but it's pretty unlikely.

Which is unlikely, contacting Live and Neutral, or the current going across the body?

If a person contacts only the Live in a socket, they likely will perceive nothing, and no RCD will trip. If they now contact Neutral, no more current will flow on the earth path than when only the Live was contacted, so still no tripping of the RCD.

But my postings were just in reply to mentioning the DB as the only possible place this can happen even for someone that went looking for a shock.

Id say myself, RCDs on lights will possibly happen sometime, although RCBOs would be the practical method.

RCDs/RCBO`s probably offer some fire protection on faulty circuits too.

Solair

The Americans are starting to use arc fault detectors too. They seem to be an improvement on fire protection. Picks up am arcing fault and trips out.

Probably a bigger deal in wooden houses and with their 110V system you tend to get more high amp, maxed out circuits and fire hazards than with 230V

larchill

An electrician has told me that our regs are tighter than most (even the UK). Common sense dictates that sockets are best kept from bathrooms, shaver sockets with isolating transformers excepted. We are damper than most, look @ how damp it was with the recent mild weather. Much dryer in Europe. I'd agree that our 13A sockets are cumbersome. The continential ones are far neater & more universal @ are used @ the same voltage: 220/230V. Not mush of the world uses our 13A format - bit like driving on the left when most do so on the right!

Solair

larchill wrote: »

An electrician has told me that our regs are tighter than most (even the UK). Common sense dictates that sockets are best kept from bathrooms, shaver sockets with isolating transformers excepted. We are damper than most, look @ how damp it was with the recent mild weather. Much dryer in Europe. I'd agree that our 13A sockets are cumbersome. The continential ones are far neater & more universal @ are used @ the same voltage: 220/230V. Not mush of the world uses our 13A format - bit like driving on the left when most do so on the right!

It's just a different approach.

It's nothing to do with the weather. It doesn't generally rain in your house (if it does you need a new roof).

BS1363 plugs are also disastrous in outdoor, wet areas.

Schuko (continental) plugs come in outdoor rated versions and have a recessed socket that helps keep your fingers very far from live pins.

Our system rely on an added on sheath on the pins.

I don't buy the climate differences as a reason for different rules.

It's just parallel development of rules by different regulatory authorities.

In general, when done correctly, European systems are all very safe. It's usually only a problem when someone does some DIY hack job or you're dealing with very obsolete wiring.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The Americans are starting to use arc fault detectors too. They seem to be an improvement on fire protection. Picks up am arcing fault and trips out.

Yea arcing from L to N from dampness etc might not trip either the MCB or RCD.

Id assume they detect erratic current flows to detect arcing currents, and for a certain time frame, or else they might trip when a switch is turned on or off due to its arcing.

They could prevent shower isolators from badly burning with bad connections, which neither an MCB or RCD would do.

Solair

Yeah, I think that's basically the point.

Because of wooden construction, the US has always taken electrical fire safety very very seriously.

Most states tend to require everything to be in metal, flexible ducting (looks like shower hoses) and metal boxes etc.

The low voltage doesn't help either! Lots of very over loaded circuits are common.

The Arc fault device seems like a good idea though. Modern electronics are making lots of these things possible and cheap!

Seraphim1

I'm sure it was scene in a film where someone throws an electric fire into,a bath to kill someone is the real reason why we don't have sockets in our bathrooms. That and nuisance tripping.

Bruthal

Seraphim1 wrote: »

I'm sure it was scene in a film where someone throws an electric fire into,a bath to kill someone is the real reason why we don't have sockets in our bathrooms.

What we see in films might not happen in real life.

And if it is to prevent attempted murder in baths, then we may need to ban knives in the press, hammers in the tool box, extension leads that could be brought to the bathroom by a prospective electrocutioner etc etc.

That and nuisance tripping.

If sockets were wired into the bathroom on a dedicated RCBO circuit, then not much problem there.