No sockets in bathrooms, why?

Bruthal

enda1 wrote: »

The cooker thing in the UK and Ireland is rather stupid though. Modern cookers usually can not be used until the clock is set, so every time the big red switch is tripped, the clock must be reset before using the oven. The appliances clearly are meant to be left on all the time.

And the problem with leaving them on, but with an isolator close at hand if needed is?

enda1

Bruthal wrote: »

And the problem with leaving them on, but with an isolator close at hand if needed is?

Another cost and nuisance. The cost of installation, purchase and maintenance, and the nuisance of lost counter/wall space.

fasttalkerchat

Out of interest, If I was redecorating my bathroom and decided to put the washing machine and tumble dryer in there is there anything actually stopping me?

enda1

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Out of interest, If I was redecorating my bathroom and decided to put the washing machine and tumble dryer in there is there anything actually stopping me?

I'd guess if there's an incident, insurance wouldn't look kindly upon it.

M cebee

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Out of interest, If I was redecorating my bathroom and decided to put the washing machine and tumble dryer in there is there anything actually stopping me?

i would hazard a guess , washer/dryer located outside of bathroom zones and permanently connected is allowed

not 100% on that though

Bruthal

enda1 wrote: »

Another cost and nuisance. The cost of installation, purchase and maintenance, and the nuisance of lost counter/wall space.

Well, the parents house, since the 70`s, no problems, my own for the last 10 years, no problems, and I have a kettle right in front of it on the counter, no space lost. Used purely as isolators, cooker ones properly connected last a long time.

Some of the regs are over the top, as if dreamt up by people trying to think of something new for the sake of it. But I like the idea of local isolators at fixed appliances. Im not a fan of the isolators for sockets under counters though. Again, people who probably felt they had a eureka moment there, but never have to do any wiring. Just my opinions of course.

One plus side of kitchen hidden socket isolators is fault finding when RCDs are tripping, which can be a nuisance in kitchens to find.

JustAddWater

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Out of interest, If I was redecorating my bathroom and decided to put the washing machine and tumble dryer in there is there anything actually stopping me?

No resistance ... and that's the problem

whomitconcerns

So where do I plug in leccie tootbrush and waterpik? Just back from 2yrs in europe, never had a problem there...

M cebee

enda1 wrote: »

Of course we use the hairdryer ion the bedroom and not the bathroom, because that's the only way to do it currently. Myself I'd like to use the appliances in the bathroom where the humid air belongs and where it is well lit and has mirrors. Also I'd like the option to keep my washer and dryer in the bathroom, again where the wet and damp conditions belong rather than in the kitchen!

Very informative post though.

The cooker thing in the UK and Ireland is rather stupid though. Modern cookers usually can not be used until the clock is set, so every time the big red switch is tripped, the clock must be reset before using the oven. The appliances clearly are meant to be left on all the time.

re: washer/dryers
- there isn't much wet and steam really
-they're normally located in utility which is convenient for back door access to clothes line
-less noise than centrally located bathrooms
-convenient worktop


-

Solair

We have a French built De Deitrich oven which seems to realise that the Irish and British tendency is to cut the power to the oven when not in use. It remembers the time when switched off.

The isolator is there to allow you to cut the power to clean the oven or, cut it as a last resort should the oven / hob catch fire.

The down side of the continental way of doing it is this.

I lived in France and my friend's mum was cleaning the oven one morning and got a really bad shock, enough to send her to hospital!
That couldn't happen here as you can switch off the oven very easily.

The only way you could disconnect it was by tripping a breaker or pulling a large 32amp plug hidden behind the back of an adjacent cupboard.

The isolators for built in appliances also make sense if you can't get near the plug. You have to be able to cut the power sometimes. Also a lot of modern appliances have electronic controls without a physical on/off switch. I know we've had a high end, fancy, all-electronic dishwasher refuse to work without cutting the power to hard reset it! I wouldn't like to have to pull it out of its position to get at the socket or have to trip the circuit breaker in the garage to do that.

For the sake of a few quid on a multi - thousand Euro kitchen installation, I don't think they're that not a deal tbh.

We could learn a few things from the continent though too. For example special cooker plugs make swapping your oven safer and easier.
They also require a small socket behind light fittings in France now, so you can basically swap your ceiling and side lights by just plugging into a socket hidden behind them. This is much safer than wiring!

BrensBenz

There is some very interesting information in this thread but I thought I would move it a little sideways, i.e. away from bathrooms and kitchens, and post a more general warning:
During a family holiday at a UK hotel, my young son was splashing around in the pool and decided to collect his inflatable Orca from the dressing room. I watched as he skidded around on the wet tiles and into the dressing room. The dressing room lights were off, making it difficult for him to make out HIS Orca from all of the other inflatable critters. The light switch was on the wall outside the dressing room and I saw him reach for it. Time slowed down - huge humidity, little wet fingers, wet feet, wet tiles. Before I had a chance to shout, he shuddered and fell to the floor. I thought he was dead until he yelled in pain and fright.
Now, I'm sure there SHOULD have been a safer switch fitted; the switch SHOULD have been rejected by the electrical inspection authority on innumerable occasions; there SHOULD have been lots of other preventive measures taken. The point is that we can't assume compliance with any safety standards. Cemetaries are full of people who had the right of way or were innocent victims of assumptions. Please, be aware and keep safe.
And no, I don't work in H&S!

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

We have a French built De Deitrich oven which seems to realise that the Irish and British tendency is to cut the power to the oven when not in use. It remembers the time when switched off.

The isolator is there to allow you to cut the power to clean the oven or, cut it as a last resort should the oven / hob catch fire.

The down side of the continental way of doing it is this.

I lived in France and my friend's mum was cleaning the oven one morning and got a really bad shock, enough to send her to hospital!
That couldn't happen here as you can switch off the oven very easily.

The only way you could disconnect it was by tripping a breaker or pulling a large 32amp plug hidden behind the back of an adjacent cupboard.

The isolators for built in appliances also make sense if you can't get near the plug. You have to be able to cut the power sometimes. Also a lot of modern appliances have electronic controls without a physical on/off switch. I know we've had a high end, fancy, all-electronic dishwasher refuse to work without cutting the power to hard reset it! I wouldn't like to have to pull it out of its position to get at the socket or have to trip the circuit breaker in the garage to do that.

For the sake of a few quid on a multi - thousand Euro kitchen installation, I don't think they're that not a deal tbh.

We could learn a few things from the continent though too. For example special cooker plugs make swapping your oven safer and easier.
They also require a small socket behind light fittings in France now, so you can basically swap your ceiling and side lights by just plugging into a socket hidden behind them. This is much safer than wiring!

An isolator for each socket is over the top.

Bruthal

BrensBenz wrote: »

Now, I'm sure there SHOULD have been a safer switch fitted; the switch SHOULD have been rejected by the electrical inspection authority on innumerable occasions; there SHOULD have been lots of other preventive measures taken. The point is that we can't assume compliance with safety standards. Cemetaries are full of people who had the right of way or were innocent victims of assumptions. Please, be aware and keep safe.
And no, I don't work in H&S!

That is where the real danger is, falling. It would have been extremely unlikely that he would have received a bad electrical shock, just a bad (non electrical) shock, and fright.

A more suitable switch should have been fitted alright.

enda1

M cebee wrote: »

re: washer/dryers
- there isn't much wet and steam really
-they're normally located in utility which is convenient for back door access to clothes line
-less noise than centrally located bathrooms
-convenient worktop


-

I agree that utility room is better, but as the world moves towards apartment living where everything is on the one floor and there is no utility room (never mind clothes line in the garden!), it is far more preferable to have these devices in a bathroom than in the open-plan kitchen/living room where then make loads of noise also!

Solair

whomitconcerns wrote: »

So where do I plug in leccie tootbrush and waterpik? Just back from 2yrs in europe, never had a problem there...

Into the shaver socket in your bathroom? Often located in the mirror light....Can't really see the difference other than you can't plug in heavy appliances like hair dryers!

It also reduces queues for the bathroom.
Try living with 3 French women and one bathroom!
Hours of hair drying and hair straighteners etc being used in the bathroom.

In Ireland and the UK they do that at their dressing table!

Stop complaining! You don't know how helpful that is.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

Into the shaver socket in your bathroom? Often located in the mirror light....Can't really see the difference other than you can't plug in heavy appliances like hair dryers!

It also reduces queues for the bathroom.
Try living with 3 French women and one bathroom!
Hours of hair drying and hair straighteners etc being used in the bathroom.

In Ireland and the UK they do that at their dressing table!

Stop complaining! You don't know how helpful that is.

Add in the washing machine and they could live in it.

M cebee

Solair wrote: »

Actually, only North America, Japan and a few other places use 100-120V.

120V isn't all that much safer either. Given the right path through your chest, 230V and 120V will both quite likely kill you if there's no RCD (or GFCI as the Americans call them) present.

The 110V site-transformers you see on building sites in Ireland and Britain actually are connected via a centre tapped transformer and have 55V + 55V out of phase. So, there's 110V between the pins, but only 55V to ground. So, if you cut a cable the most you'll be exposed to is 55V. They are not the same as US domestic electricity which is 120V on the live and 0V on the neutral.

ALL of Europe uses a standardised 230V 50Hz. The only differences are the shapes of the plugs in a few countries, notably Ireland, Britain, Italy, Denmark and Switzerland. Everywhere else it's pretty much totally standardised these days with CEE 7/7 plugs etc.

Irish wiring standards are a weird mishmash of UK (IEE) standards and DIN German standards. We tended to always use German-style fuse boards, mostly use radial circuits etc etc. At one stage we even used Schuko (German style) plugs for a while.

Ireland pretty much follows UK-style bathroom wiring rules which probably come from an era long before RCDs.
The shaver socket has an isolating transformer in it to prevent electric shocks. It can only provide a very small amount of power which is why it has a non-standard shaver plug.

Ireland's also required RCDs on sockets for much longer than the UK has. The UK only made them mandatory in the most recent update to their regulations when there was a massive upgrade to the rules over there. They went from no RCDs to RCDs on everything.

Older British wiring also tended to use rather primitive rewirable fuses, where as we nearly always used diazed cartridge fuses in old installations here.

Modern wiring in Ireland is very similar to most of Europe. All European countries now generally have moved towards some degree of harmonisation of standards following CENELEC and IEC guidelines.

The bathroom rules are just very restrictive here and in Britain and seem to have never really taken into account the development of RCDs.

I am not sure how many people die in bathroom electrocutions in Spain or anywhere else. I've never seen stats so I can't really compare.

I do know however that I've seen stats for Ireland and the number of people killed in domestic electric shock related accidents is absolutely tiny. It's a very unlikely way to be killed here. Where people are killed by electric shock, it's usually accidents involving contacting overhead lines or on building sites. Still not very common, but it seems deadly domestic accidents involving electricity are really quite unusual.

In general though, the UK/Irish approach to safety tends to be a little different and has always paid a lot of attention to getting basic things right and not relying too much on devices like RCDs as the only line of protection.

It's pretty conservative in how it does things.

For example, we tend to take earthing and bonding very seriously. We use neutralised (TN-C) systems and do not like TT.
3-phase power is taken very seriously and not generally allowed in domestic premises where as it's quite commonly found in a lot of houses in some countries. We tend to use a large ampage single phase connection instead of 3-phase.

We have also had things like mandatory shutters on sockets to prevent children inserting things into them since the current system was introduced in the 1940s!

We do not allow non-earthed sockets at all. They simply do not exist. We also do not allow 2-pin plugs as the 3rd pin is required to open the shutters and also ensure the plug can only go in one way.

Polarity is also absolutely preserved all the time in the UK/Ireland plug system where as on the continent it's random. While this isn't a huge issue, it does reduce shock risks where single-pole switching is used on appliances i.e. when you press the off button on your appliance in Ireland, it's cutting the live. When you do that in Spain, France, Germany etc, it could be cutting the neutral depending on which way the plug is in.

The fuses in the plugs are here are required because of the ring circuit (32 amp circuit) that can be used to feed sockets. While this is allowed in Ireland, it's much much more popular in the UK.
The fuse is there to provide local overload protection and basically protect the flex of the appliance from burning out.

However, it also gives us the opportunity to fine-tune the overcurrent protection for each appliance as we can fit lower rated fuses into plugs for appliances with thin cords i.e. small appliances with low loads. Continental sockets will just provide you with whatever protection the socket has i.e. 16A or 20A radial MCB.

So, a lamp in Ireland is protected with a 3amp fuse. This means the thin cord going from the plug to the lamp is very well protected should it ever suffer a short-circuit.
Fuses are really fire-protection, not shock protection.

It's also useful, for example if you plug an overloaded extension cable into a French or Spanish socket, it might not blow until the load reaches 20A thus creating a fire risk.
If you try that with an Irish/UK extension lead with multiple sockets, when the load goes beyond 13amp, the fuse will start to melt thus avoiding a fire.

Then you get some slightly quirky things like switched sockets and endless isolator switches e.g. cooker switches which would be pretty unusual in say Spain or France. We like to be able to totally isolate fixed appliances here with a double pole switch.

Bathroom rules on sockets vary a bit from country to country in Europe though too. For example, in Belgium it's not unusual to have the light switches outside the bathrooms similar to Ireland.
Although, it's still normal enough to have a standard French/Belgian style socket in there.

You also have some very seriously different rules for on-site safety for construction sites here and in Britain where special low voltage 55+55V (110V) equipment is used with yellow industrial style plugs. Elsewhere in Europe, normal 230V hand-held equipment is allowed.

All in all, I think we just tend to play it safe with electricity and not take unnecessary chances.

What exactly do you need a socket in a bathroom for anyway?
We have special sockets where you can plug in shavers/toothbrushes. Although, they're even a bit irrelevant as almost all of those things are rechargable.
Most people here would also tend to dry their hair in their bedroom, not in the bathroom.

In pre-RCD days, it was a pretty dangerous idea to have a hairdryer in your hand while standing on a wet floor in bare feet. That's the main reason we were not keen on bathroom sockets.

i'm not aware of any restrictions with domestic 3-phase.
fitted it plenty of times when needed

usually single phase is adequate and cheaper-there's a 16kva supply available if needed

M cebee

enda1 wrote: »

I agree that utility room is better, but as the world moves towards apartment living where everything is on the one floor and there is no utility room (never mind clothes line in the garden!), it is far more preferable to have these devices in a bathroom than in the open-plan kitchen/living room where then make loads of noise also!

apartment- yes

Solair

BrensBenz wrote: »

There is some very interesting information in this thread but I thought I would move it a little sideways, i.e. away from bathrooms and kitchens, and post a more general warning:
During a family holiday at a UK hotel, my young son was splashing around in the pool and decided to collect his inflatable Orca from the dressing room. I watched as he skidded around on the wet tiles and into the dressing room. The dressing room lights were off, making it difficult for him to make out HIS Orca from all of the other inflatable critters. The light switch was on the wall outside the dressing room and I saw him reach for it. Time slowed down - huge humidity, little wet fingers, wet feet, wet tiles. Before I had a chance to shout, he shuddered and fell to the floor. I thought he was dead until he yelled in pain and fright.
Now, I'm sure there SHOULD have been a safer switch fitted; the switch SHOULD have been rejected by the electrical inspection authority on innumerable occasions; there SHOULD have been lots of other preventive measures taken. The point is that we can't assume compliance with safety standards. Cemetaries are full of people who had the right of way or were innocent victims of assumptions. Please, be aware and keep safe.
And no, I don't work in H&S!

That's why I never understand why we only require RCDs on sockets. Ireland had had that requirement for quite a long time.

The UK recently leap frogged us in terms of safety by requiring RCDs on everything.

They simply use a few combined RCBOs (a breaker & rcd in one unit) to achieve this. The cost of RCDs fell dramatically over the last decade or more. When they came out first, they were very expensive so electrical norms only requires one for all the socket circuits.

Our logic for not including lighting was that you could be plunged into darkness if just one RCD controlled all your lighting circuits. Nowadays you could just use several devices to split them up.

I think you're as likely to get a shock while switching a faulty light switch or changing a bulb as you are from a plugged in appliance.

Give me an Irish 3pin plug top any day over a poxy euro one!
So people are complaint over the extremely high standard of something in Ireland??
Coming from an electrical background,Some of the stuff you see In Spain/France is scary.

Solair

M cebee wrote: »

i'm not aware of any restrictions with domestic 3-phase.
fitted it plenty of times when needed

usually single phase is adequate and cheaper-there's a 16kva supply available if needed

You wouldn't install a 400V cooker though. That's fairly normal on the continent.
You've three phase sockets in the kitchen and sometimes utility there.

Three phase here in domestic gets split into multiple single phase circuits.

Until the 1970s / 1980s three phase washing machines and tumble dryers were available in some continental countries.

The difference over there is in some places the power company will not deliver more than say 32amp single phase supplies. In some places even less than that. So, for a normal home you'd need 3 phase.

I had an apartment in Spain where we had 16 amps for an entire one bedroom apartment!!!!

Solair

Solair wrote: »

You wouldn't install a 400V cooker though. That's fairly normal on the continent.
!

Ive done it more than once,
deffo not normal tho

Solair

urbanledge wrote: »

Ive done it more than once,
deffo not normal tho

You regularly see a domestic 3 phase socket in France. It's just a flat wall plate like ours. Unshuttered, five pin, no RCD etc. Not the industrial style ones we use here.

Can't see that happening here!

whomitconcerns

Solair wrote: »

Into the shaver socket in your bathroom? Often located in the mirror light....Can't really see the difference other than you can't plug in heavy appliances like hair dryers!

And what about the current? My understanding was that they were a diff current? And why cant they be the same size plug as the euro plug anyway not like our made up sizes. Or is it due to the current?

Bruthal

whomitconcerns wrote: »

And what about the current? My understanding was that they were a diff current? And why cant they be the same size plug as the euro plug anyway not like our made up sizes. Or is it due to the current?

The shaver sockets are fine for small items like tooth brushes, electric shavers etc. Their output socket is supplied through a transformer, which electrically iolates its output voltage from the mains, which prevents shocks to earth from them.

They are only suitable for low current appliances as the transformer in them is small. Even something like a hairdryer would be too high a current for using in them.

Solair

whomitconcerns wrote: »

And what about the current? My understanding was that they were a diff current? And why cant they be the same size plug as the euro plug anyway not like our made up sizes. Or is it due to the current?

You can safely use toothbrushes, shavers, waterpiks etc in the shaver socket in your bathroom. That's exactly what it's designed for.

The UK shaver socket accepts the older style UK shaver plug which is very like a continental 2-pin plug used for very low powered appliances i.e. the small, flat plug you find on things like shavers, radios etc. The only difference is the UK plug has shorter, fatter pins.
A lot of shavers/toothbrushes etc sold here still come with that plug. It's a complete pain in the rear as you can't plug them into continental sockets!

It's nothing to do with technical differences in the supply system, rather that the UK just used that standard since at least the 1920s and never changed.

They kept the shaver plug because it was neat, small and practical for carrying around in your luggage.

The shaver socket will however accept European 2-pin 2.5amp plugs i.e. what you'd normally find on a shaver / toothbrush etc.

If you were to plug in a heavy appliance like a hairdryer, the socket would just trip out, even if the plug fitted.

A lot of shaver sockets can also connect with North American shavers/toothbrushes and supply 115 volts! This is probably useful in hotels, but I can't understand why we bother with this in houses. You nearly always find a switch or 2 sockets rated 230V and 115V...

Many of them will also accept Australia/NZ shaver plugs too (also 230V but with slanty pins)

Our shaver sockets do not directly connect you to the mains. They connect you via an isolating transformer which gives a pretty serious level of shock protection. If anything, you'd be a lot safer using your waterpik in an Irish bathroom socket than with a regular continental mains socket.

Long wiki article explaining isolation transformers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer

If there isn't one on the wall, check bathroom mirror lights / bathroom cabinets. They're often hidden like this : or part of the mirror light.

Don't plug a hairdryer / curling tongs or anything like that into them, even if the plug fits. It will just blow the fuse in the socket / trip it out. Some are resettable easily, some aren't.

The socket in the bathroom will only supply about 15-20Watts max. A hair dryer could be up to 2000W, where as a toothbrush / waterpik is perfectly suitable at only a few watts max. Most hair clippers etc are fine too.

M cebee

Solair wrote: »

That's why I never understand why we only require RCDs on sockets. Ireland had had that requirement for quite a long time.

The UK recently leap frogged us in terms of safety by requiring RCDs on everything.

They simply use a few combined RCBOs (a breaker & rcd in one unit) to achieve this. The cost of RCDs fell dramatically over the last decade or more. When they came out first, they were very expensive so electrical norms only requires one for all the socket circuits.

Our logic for not including lighting was that you could be plunged into darkness if just one RCD controlled all your lighting circuits. Nowadays you could just use several devices to split them up.

I think you're as likely to get a shock while switching a faulty light switch or changing a bulb as you are from a plugged in appliance.

afaik the new uk regs on rcd's is for circuits buried in plaster

-don't think it has anything to do with hazards of changing lightbulbs

Solair

M cebee wrote: »

afaik the new uk regs on rcd's is for circuits buried in plaster

-don't think it has anything to do with hazards of changing lightbulbs

Reading the background to it, it was a bit of everything.

Mostly to make installations DIY-idiot proof.

We all know Britain and Ireland need a lot of DIY-idiot proofing.

Remember, there are a lot of continental countries where it's almost illegal to wire a plug, never mind carry out major electrical work in your own home.
I think it's the Swiss that won't even sell you a plug unless they see your electrical contractors' license !! WAY too dangerous.

The effect of RCD-protecting every circuit in the UK is that as more homes get that, it will be almost impossible to get a fatal electric shock even if you went seriously out of your way to get one. The only possible way you could would be if someone were to open the distribution board / tamper with the meter directly.

The change in the UK's very dramatic though. We had a half-way house where only sockets were protected for quite a long time.
They had a situation where RCDs were relatively new-fangled optional things until very recently. Often your only protection was a big, clunky rewirable fuse on the distribution board. A lot of them often even had the wrong fuse wire used where someone decided that the fuse blew too often / couldn't find the correct fuse wire.

Even the concept of expecting domestic consumers to rewire a fuse with fuse wire was a bit mad!

The UK also had to be forced by an EU directive to require plugs to be fitted to appliances. There was a very long period where plugs did not come with appliances at all and you had to fit your own. This was based on some nonsense that they couldn't be sure what type of sockets you had in your house... There was a change over period between the old round pin and new square pins plugs, but they allowed that mess to continue for WAY too long.

Again, it was a bit weird to expect consumers to fit their own plugs, not to mention quite dangerous.

It resulted them in having to run public information films like this, as some people didn't bother using plugs and just stuck the wires straight into the sockets using match sticks, or used another plug to hold them in place!


Warning: Video contains some bad acting. However, it does show the importance of fitting a plug to your drill, particularly if you're planning on drilling a hole into a giant metal top hat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N0ATdDdwKg

Older UK domestic fuses look like something out of Dr Frankensteins lab! At least in Ireland we had those bottle-shaped German-type cartridge fuses which were a lot more idiot-proof.

I wouldn't really rate the older British wiring systems as particularly safe. They were very slow to adopt modern protections, although when they finally did, they really went the whole hog!

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The effect of RCD-protecting every circuit in the UK is that as more homes get that, it will be almost impossible to get a fatal electric shock even if you went seriously out of your way to get one. The only possible way you could would be if someone were to open the distribution board / tamper with the meter directly.

It would be possible at any point there is a live and neutral. A person contacting an RCD protected live terminal will be unlikely to trip an RCD unless in good contact with an earth.

Of course the RCD greatly reduces the electrocution risk, if someone in contact with a live, and does not trip the RCD, then there is not a dangerous level flowing. But contact with a socket L and N, and the RCD wont trip unless the person is also contacting earth with a decent enough path, which wont be happening in shoes/runners on the ground, or bare feet on wooden floors etc.

Solair

Bruthal wrote: »

It would be possible at any point there is a live and neutral. A person contacting an RCD protected live terminal will be unlikely to trip an RCD unless in good contact with an earth.

Of course the RCD greatly reduces the electrocution risk, if someone in contact with a live, and does not trip the RCD, then there is not a dangerous level flowing. But contact with a socket L and N, and the RCD wont trip unless the person is also contacting earth with a decent enough path, which wont be happening in shoes/runners on the ground, or bare feet on wooden floors etc.

Well, the only serious risk would be if you managed to connect yourself between live and neutral and in such a way that the current flowed across your body.

Which isn't impossible, but it's pretty unlikely.

It cuts most risks of serious shocks. Sticking your finger into a junction box or appliance or whatever and touching live and neutral could still give you quite a nasty shock / burn though.