No sockets in bathrooms, why?

Manuito

Hi,

I know what you are going to say as soon as you see this post: big no no, illegal, dangerous, you can kill yourself, building regulations, etcetera. OK.

But, why? Why is it dangerous? I know it's going to sound like a ridiculous question here in Ireland... but I come from Spain and there (as you probably know), as in many other countries, we have sockets in the bathrooms and no one gets killed because of that. We all know it could be dangerous if you try to use an electrical appliance while you are having a shower, but no one tries. Humidity can be very high in the bathroom while you are having a shower, but I have never heard about someone receiving a discharge because of that. Old houses and new houses have sockets even in small bathrooms.

Is there something different here in Ireland? Is it more dangerous than in other places for some reason?

Thanks a lot!

KoolKid

In most countries where it is allowed the standard voltage is 110v I think.
110 v is a lot safer than 220v.
110v is allowed here also for the likes of shavers.

seamus

Just one of those things that (afaik) you're not permitted to do.

The main fear is about having a water-soaked floor and leaving appliances lying on the floor turned on, such as hair straighteners, hair dryers or portable stereos. There's also the risk that in the high-humidity environment, simple acts such as inserting/removing the plug or cleaning it could complete the circuit. Electric shocks from the plug ring circuit can be very serious.

I don't know the full details behind it - perhaps it makes a difference that we use 3-pin sockets and only two-pin sockets are used in the rest of europe?

Manuito

We use 220v in Spain, and the sockets used in the bathrooms are exactly the same ones (no breakers or anything) as in the rest of the house. They offer the same power as well: you can connect a shaver, a hairdryer, a television or whatever you like. They also are 3-pin sockets (you can only see two holes, but they also have small pins in the upper and lower sides of the plug which act as the connection to earth).

I know that it might sound dangerous... but as I said, it is considered safe in Spain and I have never heard about anyone suffering an electric shock while cleaning or inserting/removing the plug.

KoolKid

I don't know what the regs are in Spain , but from what I have seen over there they are a lot more relaxed then here when it comes to electrical safety.

Capt'n Midnight

On the continent they have washing machines and stuff in the bathrooms

maybe there is a rule about 2 meters or something that you can't be too close to the shower / bath even if you stretch out your arms,

I don't have my copy of the regs to hand so can't confirm

and humidity in Ireland is a lot worse and it's more likely that if there was a socket in the bathroom that someone would plug a heater in it than in either warmer climates or places where they insulate houses

but here we use fuses, ELCB's and can be resonably sure that the off switch is on the live side of the circuit , stuff that isn't used in much of the continent

cnocbui

230v in Oz and you have sockets and switches in bathrooms. The reason seems to be like so many things in Ireland, an inheritance of daft UK practices without ever engaging a brain and questioning the sense behind things.

Things I would change - allow light switches inside toilets and bathrooms, Proper mains water pressure and doing away with attic tanks. Adopt the Continental electrical plugs and ditch the ghastly UK one, which has to be the worlds worst. Waste water outlets all plumbed underground instead of sticking out of the outside wall and emptying into a an open drain.

I think Australia and Spain can get away with power sockets in bathrooms because they don't have such a problem with cold and condensation.

Manuito

I don't know if regulations are much more relaxed in Spain, but sockets in bathrooms are allowed in many other european countries where regulations are probably very strict, like Germany, Norway, France and many more (probably most of Europe, excluding UK/Ireland).

I think that the only rule is about 60 cms or so, maybe 1 meter (something realistic), between your shower/bath and the socket. Washing machines are installed in bahrooms in some countries, but it's something very rare to see in Spain (sockets are there for hairdryers, radios and things like that).

I don't think that the cold or condensation in Ireland is that important, to be honest, as the conditions in some areas of those other countries are much worse in that aspect. Condensation is something that is going to increase substantially anyway as soon as you take a two-hours-long bath, but still there are no accidents because of that.

In my opinion regulations are so "relaxed" in many other countries because, as I said, there are no accidents directly related to this. Accidents happen, but we must be responsible with what we do. Here in Ireland we cannot install sockets in the bathrooms because we are trying to protect us from something that is anyway not happening anywhere else... and the cost is very high in my opinion.

M cebee

i wouldn't like to see appliances and sockets in bathrooms

PandyAndy

I always assumed it was down to a build up of moisture within the sockets caused by steam from hot baths/showers etc.

If I were building my own house I certainly wouldn't have sockets in bathrooms/en suites regardless of what the regulations are like in other countries. Better to be safe than sorry and all that jazz, I suppose. I've never once needed a socket there either.

Bruthal

cnocbui wrote: »

230v in Oz and you have sockets and switches in bathrooms. The reason seems to be like so many things in Ireland, an inheritance of daft UK practices without ever engaging a brain and questioning the sense behind things.

Things I would change - allow light switches inside toilets and bathrooms, Proper mains water pressure and doing away with attic tanks. Adopt the Continental electrical plugs and ditch the ghastly UK one, which has to be the worlds worst. Waste water outlets all plumbed underground instead of sticking out of the outside wall and emptying into a an open drain.

I think Australia and Spain can get away with power sockets in bathrooms because they don't have such a problem with cold and condensation.

Hopefully you wont be in a position to bring in your recommendations:pac:

paddy147

cnocbui wrote: »

230v in Oz and you have sockets and switches in bathrooms. The reason seems to be like so many things in Ireland, an inheritance of daft UK practices without ever engaging a brain and questioning the sense behind things.


I think Australia and Spain can get away with power sockets in bathrooms because they don't have such a problem with cold and condensation.

You see,we value our health and safety here in Ireland.;)

Electricity and water dont tend to mix well

Maybe you Aussies have had 1 too many Fosters or Castlemane XXXX for breakie and tend to forget the above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaHkEH3nk8w&feature=related

G,day mate.:P

Bruthal

Water is actually a very poor conductor, distilled water does not conduct at all, but when someone comes in contact with a live terminal with wet hands it makes a huge difference to the connection they make.

Overall it would probably not be as dangerous as we would imagine to have a socket in the bathroom, especially with RCD protection. But the thing is why bother, what advantage would it have compared to not having them. Having the minimum amount of 230v facilities in a bathroom is a good idea i think.

dazberry

cnocbui wrote: »

Adopt the Continental electrical plugs and ditch the ghastly UK one, which has to be the worlds worst.

Sorry, OT for this thread, but have you seen MIN-KYU CHOI's folding plug system?



D.

Capt'n Midnight

robbie7730 wrote: »

Water is actually a very poor conductor, distilled water does not conduct at all, but when someone comes in contact with a live terminal with wet hands it makes a huge difference to the connection they make.

PURE water is a poor conductor, but when it comes to ionic compounds it's one of the best solvents so you just don't get pure water unless you have deionised it and ridiculously clean floors and don't ever allow chemicals, like bleach or soap or shampoo or what have you into the bathroom.

A car battery will easily allow 600 Amps through with only one or two volts per mostly water filled cell. mains at 230V peaks at over 300V not just one or two and it only takes 0.01 A to kill you.

When you are electrocuted you sweat, this and other changes allow more electrolytes to flow into the path , resistance goes down and current goes up and pretty soon you are having a bad day

Bruthal

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

PURE water is a poor conductor, but when it comes to ionic compounds it's one of the best solvents so you just don't get pure water unless you have deionised it and ridiculously clean floors and don't ever allow chemicals, like bleach or soap or shampoo or what have you into the bathroom.

A car battery will easily allow 600 Amps through with only one or two volts per mostly water filled cell. mains at 230V peaks at over 300V not just one or two and it only takes 0.01 A to kill you.

When you are electrocuted you sweat, this and other changes allow more electrolytes to flow into the path , resistance goes down and current goes up and pretty soon you are having a bad day

Yes i think most of us realise all that, i thought i said water on the skin makes the contact far better in my post.

But water is not the good conductor we always hear it is, even tap water , and you will be doing well to get a car battery to deliver 600 amps with just tap water in it, its a high concentration of sulfuric acid between plates with a large contact area.

Water will make shocks far far more severe, but usually only when contact is made with the live surface or terminal, because the water helps remove the normal surface resistance of the skin when its dry. I have received a few small shocks on farm outbuildings when light switches were wet, the water was right into the switch rockers, and the ground soaking along with it, just felt tingles etc. If you stand in dry conditions and come in contact with just a live terminal with shoes or runners on etc, no shock will be perceived even at 230v, some may find that hard to believe, but its a fact. The dangerous shocks are received when there are 2 points of contact, a live and neutral/earth in each hand for example. Or standing in pools of water, people have been killed that way pouring concrete and using 230v standing worklights etc.

With a socket in a bathroom this probably would be unlikely to happen. And with RCD protection it would trip if there was a problem. But im not saying it is safe and should be allowed, i dont think it should be. But in countries where it is there does not seem to be any problems either.
But i think its a good idea not having them in bathrooms.

Slightly related to the above was a water purifier sales man came around, getting people to buy the purifier using scam sales methods in my opinion anyway. He took out a glass and filled with tap water, put in a pair of electrodes and plugged in the supply to them, and it bubbled away as expected, and the water starts to turn brown to which he said look at the pollutants in that. He then took out a bottle of water he claimed was through the purifier, and put electrodes in and nothing happened, so after a minute i said try this and stirred in a spoon of salt, and put electrodes back in, and magically the water was now acting like my tap water. His water obviously being distilled water, which i doubt the purifier would of done.

iMax

dazberry wrote: »

Sorry, OT for this thread, but have you seen MIN-KYU CHOI's folding plug system?



D.

That's absolute genius. I'd buy a couple of them immediately for several devices.

Bruthal

iMax wrote: »

That's absolute genius. I'd buy a couple of them immediately for several devices.

Looks interesting alright.

Capt'n Midnight

meh, just use a european 2 pin plug and push the earth pin back with a screwdriver or knife or pen or whatever you can find :pac::pac:

MegaMund

At first glance it appears that the need to separate water and electricity as a safety measure would be good reasoning for not having sockets in bathrooms however this argument, if you will pardon the pun, doesn’t hold water. Just take a look at the kitchen! In the kitchen there are more sockets, more water and electrical appliances in close proximity than any where else in the house. In fact when you use the blender you are holding an electrical appliance into a pan of what essentially is water. The levels of humidity are often greater in a kitchen and certainly sustained more frequently and for longer periods.
I have lived in the UK, Germany and Spain and I have experienced the differences in attitude and method in all three countries.
My house in Spain has sockets of normal European standard in the bathroom and within reaching distance of a sink. My accommodation in Germany had the washing machine in the bathroom plugged in to a standard European socket. That seems quite a sensible place to have the washing machine as that is the place you get undressed. (Not the case in the UK here we undress in the bathroom, put the clothes in a linen bin then take the bin down to the kitchen where the food is prepared? Mmm!)

There is a rational behind the European thinking. In both the German and Spanish buildings the electricity is guarded by residual current circuit breakers which are fitted in the electric panel. There are also rows of micro circuit breakers which replace the need for fuses. All in all a safer system.
So what of the British method? The thirteen amp socket system introduces a fuse for each appliance and is designed to prevent fires through overloading but unfortunately has no electrocution intervention. It also has one other draw back. Once the fuse has blown it needs to be replaced and the different fuse ratings are 3, 5, 10, & 13 amp. Unfortunately they are all the same physical size. Now nobody is going to call an electrician to change a fuse so you end up doing it yourself. Which fuse do you use… any that you have. Consequently we potentially have a non competent person fitting an incorrect fuse. Mmm!
This also applies at the fuse board which is usually in the meter cupboard. In the UK we have fuses that require a wire change. Which wire do you use to replace the burned out bit? Again any that comes to hand and they are all interchangeable. Woops wrong again! Mmm!
Let’s look back at the European system. A circuit is over loaded and ping the MCB trips. Unplug an appliance, go to control panel put trip lever back up. Done!
An electrical appliance falls into water and ping within 35 milliseconds the whole house is switched off.
There is another advantage of having the washing machine in the bathroom. It takes its power from the upstairs ring main which is likely to have much less loading.

You see in the UK we want to switch the light on, so to power it ‘up’ we put the switch ‘down’. Mmm!
The UK safety system …legislation, regulation, DON’T, CAN’T, MUSTN’T, SHOULDN’T, fine for non compliance and not a single positive suggestion in sight.

Stoner

MegaMund wrote: »

At first glance it appears that the need to separate water and electricity as a safety measure would be good reasoning for not having sockets in bathrooms however this argument, if you will pardon the pun, doesn’t hold water. Just take a look at the kitchen! In the kitchen there are more sockets, more water and electrical appliances in close proximity than any where else in the house. In fact when you use the blender you are holding an electrical appliance into a pan of what essentially is water. The levels of humidity are often greater in a kitchen and certainly sustained more frequently and for longer periods.
I have lived in the UK, Germany and Spain and I have experienced the differences in attitude and method in all three countries.
My house in Spain has sockets of normal European standard in the bathroom and within reaching distance of a sink. My accommodation in Germany had the washing machine in the bathroom plugged in to a standard European socket. That seems quite a sensible place to have the washing machine as that is the place you get undressed. (Not the case in the UK here we undress in the bathroom, put the clothes in a linen bin then take the bin down to the kitchen where the food is prepared? Mmm!)

There is a rational behind the European thinking. In both the German and Spanish buildings the electricity is guarded by residual current circuit breakers which are fitted in the electric panel. There are also rows of micro circuit breakers which replace the need for fuses. All in all a safer system.
So what of the British method? The thirteen amp socket system introduces a fuse for each appliance and is designed to prevent fires through overloading but unfortunately has no electrocution intervention. It also has one other draw back. Once the fuse has blown it needs to be replaced and the different fuse ratings are 3, 5, 10, & 13 amp. Unfortunately they are all the same physical size. Now nobody is going to call an electrician to change a fuse so you end up doing it yourself. Which fuse do you use… any that you have. Consequently we potentially have a non competent person fitting an incorrect fuse. Mmm!
This also applies at the fuse board which is usually in the meter cupboard. In the UK we have fuses that require a wire change. Which wire do you use to replace the burned out bit? Again any that comes to hand and they are all interchangeable. Woops wrong again! Mmm!
Let’s look back at the European system. A circuit is over loaded and ping the MCB trips. Unplug an appliance, go to control panel put trip lever back up. Done!
An electrical appliance falls into water and ping within 35 milliseconds the whole house is switched off.
There is another advantage of having the washing machine in the bathroom. It takes its power from the upstairs ring main which is likely to have much less loading.

You see in the UK we want to switch the light on, so to power it ‘up’ we put the switch ‘down’. Mmm!
The UK safety system …legislation, regulation, DON’T, CAN’T, MUSTN’T, SHOULDN’T, fine for non compliance and not a single positive suggestion in sight.

I'm not sure if this is an attempted troll, but this post is largely misleading. We use MCB's RCD and RCBOs in the uk and Ireland extensively, the only real difference being that the UK combined RCD/ MCB devices use a reference connection for the neutral while in Ireland we use a two pole device that isolates both the neutral and the live connections.
If the fuse in a plug blows before the MCB or RCD trips then it has operated faster then them because its operation characteristic is different so you get four types of protection and not three when comparing systems.

On a different note I envy anyone who can fit a washing machine in their bathroom in Ireland.

LostInLM

M cebee wrote: »

i wouldn't like to see appliances and sockets in bathrooms

Lol. Can never understand this thinking! No sockets allowed yet we are all perfectly happy to stand beside the single most powerful appliance it the house with water pouring all round (... aka a 9kw electric shower!)

M cebee

LostInLM wrote: »

Lol. Can never understand this thinking! No sockets allowed yet we are all perfectly happy to stand beside the single most powerful appliance it the house with water pouring all round (... aka a 19Kw electric shower!)

Lol at the 19kw shower!

enda1

It really is extremely annoying alright. Like someone mentioned above, the kitchen is full of sockets! At least I don't remember seeing any of those many pull chords like they have in the uk bathrooms for light switches.

Bruthal

LostInLM wrote: »

Lol. Can never understand this thinking! No sockets allowed yet we are all perfectly happy to stand beside the single most powerful appliance it the house with water pouring all round (... aka a 19Kw electric shower!)

The power of the appliance has no real bearing on possible shocks received.

You will be safe with a 19kw shower, as it wont stay live for long during use in most households.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

Lol at the 19kw shower!

Would be a nice flow rate from that in the winter.

LostInLM

Bruthal wrote: »

The power of the appliance has no real bearing on possible shocks received.

You will be safe with a 19kw shower, as it wont stay live for long during use in most households.

Oops... That should have read 9kw! :-)

M cebee

is there a need for portable appliances in a bathroom, that justifies changing the rules to allow general purpose sockets?
- and the increased hazard that will entail with various appliances being plugged in and out with wet hands and more besides...

did i see they're allowed in the uk outside zones now?
i could be mistaken on that

Bruthal

I dont see much advantage here, in having sockets in bathrooms myself. I dont think it would lead to a mass of electrocutions either though.

Solair

KoolKid wrote: »

In most countries where it is allowed the standard voltage is 110v I think.
110 v is a lot safer than 220v.
110v is allowed here also for the likes of shavers.

Actually, only North America, Japan and a few other places use 100-120V.

120V isn't all that much safer either. Given the right path through your chest, 230V and 120V will both quite likely kill you if there's no RCD (or GFCI as the Americans call them) present.

The 110V site-transformers you see on building sites in Ireland and Britain actually are connected via a centre tapped transformer and have 55V + 55V out of phase. So, there's 110V between the pins, but only 55V to ground. So, if you cut a cable the most you'll be exposed to is 55V. They are not the same as US domestic electricity which is 120V on the live and 0V on the neutral.

ALL of Europe uses a standardised 230V 50Hz. The only differences are the shapes of the plugs in a few countries, notably Ireland, Britain, Italy, Denmark and Switzerland. Everywhere else it's pretty much totally standardised these days with CEE 7/7 plugs etc.

Irish wiring standards are a weird mishmash of UK (IEE) standards and DIN German standards. We tended to always use German-style fuse boards, mostly use radial circuits etc etc. At one stage we even used Schuko (German style) plugs for a while.

Ireland pretty much follows UK-style bathroom wiring rules which probably come from an era long before RCDs.
The shaver socket has an isolating transformer in it to prevent electric shocks. It can only provide a very small amount of power which is why it has a non-standard shaver plug.

Ireland's also required RCDs on sockets for much longer than the UK has. The UK only made them mandatory in the most recent update to their regulations when there was a massive upgrade to the rules over there. They went from no RCDs to RCDs on everything.

Older British wiring also tended to use rather primitive rewirable fuses, where as we nearly always used diazed cartridge fuses in old installations here.

Modern wiring in Ireland is very similar to most of Europe. All European countries now generally have moved towards some degree of harmonisation of standards following CENELEC and IEC guidelines.

The bathroom rules are just very restrictive here and in Britain and seem to have never really taken into account the development of RCDs.

I am not sure how many people die in bathroom electrocutions in Spain or anywhere else. I've never seen stats so I can't really compare.

I do know however that I've seen stats for Ireland and the number of people killed in domestic electric shock related accidents is absolutely tiny. It's a very unlikely way to be killed here. Where people are killed by electric shock, it's usually accidents involving contacting overhead lines or on building sites. Still not very common, but it seems deadly domestic accidents involving electricity are really quite unusual.

In general though, the UK/Irish approach to safety tends to be a little different and has always paid a lot of attention to getting basic things right and not relying too much on devices like RCDs as the only line of protection.

It's pretty conservative in how it does things.

For example, we tend to take earthing and bonding very seriously. We use neutralised (TN-C) systems and do not like TT.
3-phase power is taken very seriously and not generally allowed in domestic premises where as it's quite commonly found in a lot of houses in some countries. We tend to use a large ampage single phase connection instead of 3-phase.

We have also had things like mandatory shutters on sockets to prevent children inserting things into them since the current system was introduced in the 1940s!

We do not allow non-earthed sockets at all. They simply do not exist. We also do not allow 2-pin plugs as the 3rd pin is required to open the shutters and also ensure the plug can only go in one way.

Polarity is also absolutely preserved all the time in the UK/Ireland plug system where as on the continent it's random. While this isn't a huge issue, it does reduce shock risks where single-pole switching is used on appliances i.e. when you press the off button on your appliance in Ireland, it's cutting the live. When you do that in Spain, France, Germany etc, it could be cutting the neutral depending on which way the plug is in.

The fuses in the plugs are here are required because of the ring circuit (32 amp circuit) that can be used to feed sockets. While this is allowed in Ireland, it's much much more popular in the UK.
The fuse is there to provide local overload protection and basically protect the flex of the appliance from burning out.

However, it also gives us the opportunity to fine-tune the overcurrent protection for each appliance as we can fit lower rated fuses into plugs for appliances with thin cords i.e. small appliances with low loads. Continental sockets will just provide you with whatever protection the socket has i.e. 16A or 20A radial MCB.

So, a lamp in Ireland is protected with a 3amp fuse. This means the thin cord going from the plug to the lamp is very well protected should it ever suffer a short-circuit.
Fuses are really fire-protection, not shock protection.

It's also useful, for example if you plug an overloaded extension cable into a French or Spanish socket, it might not blow until the load reaches 20A thus creating a fire risk.
If you try that with an Irish/UK extension lead with multiple sockets, when the load goes beyond 13amp, the fuse will start to melt thus avoiding a fire.

Then you get some slightly quirky things like switched sockets and endless isolator switches e.g. cooker switches which would be pretty unusual in say Spain or France. We like to be able to totally isolate fixed appliances here with a double pole switch.

Bathroom rules on sockets vary a bit from country to country in Europe though too. For example, in Belgium it's not unusual to have the light switches outside the bathrooms similar to Ireland.
Although, it's still normal enough to have a standard French/Belgian style socket in there.

You also have some very seriously different rules for on-site safety for construction sites here and in Britain where special low voltage 55+55V (110V) equipment is used with yellow industrial style plugs. Elsewhere in Europe, normal 230V hand-held equipment is allowed.

All in all, I think we just tend to play it safe with electricity and not take unnecessary chances.

What exactly do you need a socket in a bathroom for anyway?
We have special sockets where you can plug in shavers/toothbrushes. Although, they're even a bit irrelevant as almost all of those things are rechargable.
Most people here would also tend to dry their hair in their bedroom, not in the bathroom.

In pre-RCD days, it was a pretty dangerous idea to have a hairdryer in your hand while standing on a wet floor in bare feet. That's the main reason we were not keen on bathroom sockets.

enda1

Of course we use the hairdryer ion the bedroom and not the bathroom, because that's the only way to do it currently. Myself I'd like to use the appliances in the bathroom where the humid air belongs and where it is well lit and has mirrors. Also I'd like the option to keep my washer and dryer in the bathroom, again where the wet and damp conditions belong rather than in the kitchen!

Very informative post though.

The cooker thing in the UK and Ireland is rather stupid though. Modern cookers usually can not be used until the clock is set, so every time the big red switch is tripped, the clock must be reset before using the oven. The appliances clearly are meant to be left on all the time.