Stress Leave?

soden12

Talk of stress is very common in the private sector - the bwank officials union (IBOA) is often on about it - something to do with having to open up at 10.00 and work until 16:00 I think. Or it might be about the difficulty of paying for their subsidised mortgage.

Eoin

I'm not a big fan of the banking industry, but you do know that the people behind the counters (who aren't on big wages at all) are working outside of the opening hours to the public, right?

Millicent

benjamin d wrote: »

Stress and depression are very common reasons for claiming illness benefit, and I've known several people who have claimed on those grounds because they won't hassle you to find work like they do with the dole (these people are wasters, yes).

How do you know that they are not low-functioning depressives? What looks like a waster to you may be someone dealing with a very serious mental illness.

Jaxxy

Public Vs Private aside, it is true that in a lot of cases being certified as suffering from "stress" can be quite common and isn't all that difficult to achieve. Working in HR I have learned that anyone can present with a set of symptoms to their doctor, reel off the list and be declared as suffering from stress or depression. The doctor's loyalty is to the patient, not the company they work for, so it is in their best interest to ensure their patient is happy and healthy. This is one of the reasons why just brandishing a doctor's cert (for whatever condition, in whatever sector) doesn't mean you can take as much leave as you want, without prejudice.

Having said that it is extremely difficult to prove one way or another that an individual is genuinely suffering or not. You do not know this individual's personal history, the details of their personal life or what they might be going through in or out of the workplace. As has been mentioned before in this thread quite often people surrounding someone who is suffering from stress or depression are unaware of the extent of it, or if even they are struggling at all. I have known people who have taken their lives and most of the time the news was greeted with complete and utter shock. One individual in particular was often described as "the life and soul of the party". Not exactly a trait one commonly equates with someone who is depressed.

Point being, just because you think someone doesn't appear to be stressed, or can't manage the same level of stress that you can, doesn't mean they're not legitimately stressed. Mental illness is just that, an illness, and it is serious and can have very serious consequences.

FlutterinBantam

JaxxYChicK wrote: »

Having said that it is extremely difficult to prove one way or another that an individual is genuinely suffering or not.

.

There is your answer, well used and abused.

Naikon

Millicent wrote: »

How do you know that they are not low-functioning depressives? What looks like a waster to you may be someone dealing with a very serious mental illness.

Probably because they are a ****. There is a saying that you can't really understand something like severe depression(Which is a far cry from someone feeling down) unless you have actually experienced it for yourself. Hence the term "Major".
I am pretty certain your typical "waster" does not question his/her mere existence on a daily basis. It's easy to label someone I reckon rather than to fully understand their situation. People in general fear/ridicule stuff they don't fully grasp.

benjamin d

Millicent wrote: »

How do you know that they are not low-functioning depressives? What looks like a waster to you may be someone dealing with a very serious mental illness.

Because the reason I know that you get less hassle from social welfare on sick and not the dole is because these people have gleefully pointed it out when they get on the sick! Most of the people I knew who were on the sick were also working for cash in hand so they are obviously functioning quite well! How many times do I have to say that I KNOW there are genuine cases but that there are far too many people who are taking the piss.

Krieg

I really don't know why this turned into public vs private sector debate since stress leave happens in both and in both cases you need a doctors cert.

From my own experience I've seen people using stress leave as a holiday, as mentioned by previous posters. Quite sickening to see some useless lazy f***, with illusions of vast self entitlement getting stress leave, I'd pay to see what excuse they use on the doctor to get the cert.

It doesn't sound ethical but I love it when people use it as a threat to management when they are being overworked, works every time too.

Dudess

benjamin d wrote: »

I know not many people are going to use it as an excuse to get off work, but as you can see, some do.

I haven't seen it myself tbh, moreso people claiming that it's the case. But I'm not saying it's an impossibility just because I don't know of cases of it myself (I would take much of the claims on this thread with a pinch of salt).

As regards ADHD, I personally don't think that its an illness/medical condition/whatever at all, it just seems to me to be a useful excuse as you say.

Whatever you think or don't think, it is a legitimate condition. Just because it's (apparently) abused, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again, I don't know of anyone who has abused it. I did talk to a woman though whose son has it and she found that the ADHD was bad enough, but the assumption she was making it up made things far worse.

Jaxxy

benjamin d wrote: »

Because the reason I know that you get less hassle from social welfare on sick and not the dole is because these people have gleefully pointed it out when they get on the sick! Most of the people I knew who were on the sick were also working for cash in hand so they are obviously functioning quite well! How many times do I have to say that I KNOW there are genuine cases but that there are far too many people who are taking the piss.

In fairness you can say the same for a lot of conditions. I know people on long term disability because of "back problems", doesn't stop them doing their nixers though. It's a flawed system, but then again we know that. I think the point being made here though is that not everyone who claims to be suffering from stress is just looking for a hand out.

There is a general lack of understanding in this country with regard to mental illness. It isn't something that is as easily overcome as some might think, in fact for many people it's an ongoing, life-long battle.

FlutterinBantam

JaxxYChicK wrote: »

In fairness you can say the same for a lot of conditions. I know people on long term disability because of "back problems", doesn't stop them doing their nixers though. It's a flawed system, but then again we know that. I think the point being made here though is that not everyone who claims to be suffering from stress is just looking for a hand out.

There is a general lack of understanding in this country with regard to mental illness. It isn't something that is as easily overcome as some might think, in fact for many people it's an ongoing, life-long battle.

Agreed, however there is a strong coterie of wasters who use the cover of 'stress' and 'back trouble' as an excuse to live on easy street.


We need to weed those wasters out.

freckly

Try being properly stressed out- not having a tough time of it stressed, but being unable to cope stressed. Watch helplessly as you turn from a cheery person into somebody who cries if the kettle takes too long to boil or you cant find your keys. Wonder why you are the only one getting every cold, flu, chest infection, rash etc. Deny that you are stressed until your long-suffering OH or doctor makes you see that being really stressed happens to even the mentally strongest of us all. Then begrudge the girl time to recover...private or public sector!

Eoin

Krieg wrote: »

I really don't know why this turned into public vs private sector debate since stress leave happens in both and in both cases you need a doctors cert.

I think the comparison tends to comes up (fairly or unfairly) because the average rate of sick leave of civil servants is twice that of the private sector, and because many people in the private sector don't get paid sick leave. Some people might interpret that to mean that the public service are a lot more tolerant of sick leave.

Krieg wrote: »

It doesn't sound ethical but I love it when people use it as a threat to management when they are being overworked, works every time too.

That can be a gamble - I've seen people let go because they couldn't deal with the work they've been paid to do.

Edit - Also, I think there's a legal distinction between stress and depression. If depression is recognised as a disability in Ireland (rather than some sort of illness condition), then employers have a greater obligation to accommodate the employee. Not 100% sure about that though.

Novella

benjamin d wrote: »

I agreed that stress isn't nice when its legitimate, so I don't know what you're getting at there, and I know not many people are going to use it as an excuse to get off work, but as you can see, some do. Stress and depression are very common reasons for claiming illness benefit, and I've known several people who have claimed on those grounds because they won't hassle you to find work like they do with the dole (these people are wasters, yes). Most are genuine, but a significant amount are not. Some people will use anything to get paid time off work.
As regards ADHD, I personally don't think that its an illness/medical condition/whatever at all, it just seems to me to be a useful excuse as you say.
I've known people who claim to be dyslexic just because they never learned to read or write properly at school, or they did badly in an exam, and use it to explain that away, and I knew a couple of people at school who used to claim, as much to themselves as anyone else, that they were dyslexic so they could use it as a crutch and be a lazy bollox! I also know people who are genuinely dyslexic so I'm not saying its completely made up, nor am I saying that stress and depression don't exist, but I am saying that a lot of people out there see these things as a nice excuse when things get a little bit too tough for them or they're feeling lazy.

So...? People use all kinds of things as excuses to get out of doing stuff that they don't wanna do. That doesn't mean that no one ever should be allowed take time off work etc., in case what they're saying isn't true.

It's incredibly difficult to diagnose a mental health issue. Maybe that's why it's quite easy to fake one, but for people genuinely suffering, it's so important that a little leeway is still given.

Dudess

Can't say I've heard of anyone seemingly faking being mentally ill to get out of work - I've heard of genuine cases all right though, if not many. It's still so stigmatised and misunderstood, I'd imagine taking sick leave is a last resort.

All this "Oh there are loads of people who fake xyz to get out of work" stuff... probably a tiny few and then their numbers are increased in people's heads, and then the mere notion becomes the reality for people who have never actually had any experience of this happening.

Not saying it's impossible for a person to fake illness to get out of work (some people are underhand) but it's a shame that there is a risk of genuine cases being dismissed as fakes by people who are all too eager to find badness in others.

Jaxxy

eoin wrote: »

Edit - Also, I think there's a legal distinction between stress and depression. If depression is recognised as a disability in Ireland (rather than some sort of illness condition), then employers have a greater obligation to accommodate the employee. Not 100% sure about that though.

There's a medical distinction. Legally to be honest it can be a complete minefield. Longterm depression from the perspective of the employer can be very tricky and in my experience was always dealt with case by case individually, with little reference to precedence. Depending on the company, sometimes after a set amount of time pay is reduced, others are recommended for termination if it is advised that the employee is considered unfit to return to work indefinitely. This matter would probably have legit grounds in the Public vs Private debate.

Where I work it is not considered a disability. Neither is alcohol or drug dependency. Also I've seen many people go from certified "stress" to "depression" after a time, so it sometimes can be quite difficult to make the distinction.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Agreed, however there is a strong coterie of wasters who use the cover of 'stress' and 'back trouble' as an excuse to live on easy street.


We need to weed those wasters out.

That's great in theory, but very difficult in practice!

Millicent

benjamin d wrote: »

Because the reason I know that you get less hassle from social welfare on sick and not the dole is because these people have gleefully pointed it out when they get on the sick! Most of the people I knew who were on the sick were also working for cash in hand so they are obviously functioning quite well! How many times do I have to say that I KNOW there are genuine cases but that there are far too many people who are taking the piss.

Fair enough. Just saying you can't always tar all with the one brush. And to the ones saying they're doing it because it's easier than the dole, it's possible that they're too ashamed to admit something that severe to anyone. Just a thought. Not saying it applies to all.

Jaxxy

Millicent wrote: »

Fair enough. Just saying you can't always tar all with the one brush. And to the ones saying they're doing it because it's easier than the dole, it's possible that they're too ashamed to admit something that severe to anyone. Just a thought. Not saying it applies to all.

+1. You can never know exactly what's going on in someone else's head.

sollar

Liam_Flag wrote: »

A freind of mine told me yesterday that that a girl in admin had taken 2 weeks sick leave due to 'stress' - that there was nothing wrong with her and it was a result of having a petty difference with one of the nurses.

I've never heard of it before and I'm amazed. I doubt many in the private sector would take it as quickly as people in the ps?

How does this friend of yours know what is on the sick cert, how do they know the details or is it just office gossip.

Captain_Generic

If only she had a picture of an otter in a bib....

FlutterinBantam

JaxxYChicK wrote: »

That's great in theory, but very difficult in practice!

I know that.

benjamin d

Millicent wrote: »

Fair enough. Just saying you can't always tar all with the one brush. And to the ones saying they're doing it because it's easier than the dole, it's possible that they're too ashamed to admit something that severe to anyone. Just a thought. Not saying it applies to all.

I agree that its possible, but for the people I'm talking about its highly unlikely. I know you can't tar everyone with one brush but I do think that it shouldn't be so easy to claim something like that just to get out of work. I think if you're diagnosed with something like stress, depression or even just a bad back, then you really should be forced to get help for it if you want paid sick leave or benefit. Its win-win because if its a genuine case then it will help solve the problems you're having and if its faked then a professional will quickly see that. Last time I heard the only thing needed was just an occasional doctors cert, although that was a few years ago.

Poccington

eoin wrote: »

I think the comparison tends to comes up (fairly or unfairly) because the average rate of sick leave of civil servants is twice that of the private sector, and because many people in the private sector don't get paid sick leave. Some people might interpret that to mean that the public service are a lot more tolerant of sick leave.

There's a difference between the Civil Service and Public Servants.

Millicent

benjamin d wrote: »

I agree that its possible, but for the people I'm talking about its highly unlikely. I know you can't tar everyone with one brush but I do think that it shouldn't be so easy to claim something like that just to get out of work. I think if you're diagnosed with something like stress, depression or even just a bad back, then you really should be forced to get help for it if you want paid sick leave or benefit. Its win-win because if its a genuine case then it will help solve the problems you're having and if its faked then a professional will quickly see that. Last time I heard the only thing needed was just an occasional doctors cert, although that was a few years ago.

I see your point on treatment. However, for clinical depression, often all that can be done is a prescription of anti-depressants that may not do much.

My point is, someone may have a long-standing depression diagnosis and have
had a range of treatments for it. Just because you know they have been signed off sick, doesn't mean you know that they have been to a psychiatrist/counsellor whatever numerous times.

benjamin d

Millicent wrote: »

....

I'm very sorry to hear that Millicent. My mother suffers from depression as well, and hasn't worked for a few years now, so I know how it can affect people, although I can't empathise with how you feel myself.
But if the people that I know who have done this have been receiving treatment for genuine depression and just didn't want to say it, I'm fine with that because at least it is genuine. Thats what I was arguing for, that people should be assessed properly instead of just saying "I don't feel great" and then being allowed to claim sick benefit.

Millicent

benjamin d wrote: »

I'm very sorry to hear that Millicent. My mother suffers from depression as well, and hasn't worked for a few years now, so I know how it can affect people, although I can't empathise with how you feel myself.
But if the people that I know who have done this have been receiving treatment for genuine depression and just didn't want to say it, I'm fine with that because at least it is genuine. Thats what I was arguing for, that people should be assessed properly instead of just saying "I don't feel great" and then being allowed to claim sick benefit.

Thank you. I really appreciate that. And I agree, there should be a more formal diagnosis, especially as it weakens the case of genuine people who aren't believed because of insincere people who are chancing their arms. Might get taken more seriously if people didn't think it was an excuse for a sick note.

Sorry to hear about your Mam, btw.

eoin

eoin wrote: »

No, you're not golden in most private sector companies.

In a case similar to the one the OP mentions, in most private sector companies there would be no problem.

"Consistently" being absent from work is a different story and, in any case, still doesn't make getting rid of that employee as easy as some people seem to think.

Japer

Liam_Flag wrote: »

A freind of mine told me yesterday that that a girl in admin had taken 2 weeks sick leave due to 'stress' - that there was nothing wrong with her and it was a result of having a petty difference with one of the nurses.

I've never heard of it before and I'm amazed. I doubt many in the private sector would take it as quickly as people in the ps?

If she was working for herself, for less money, no paid holidays, no pension and struggling to put bread on the table each day - as many are - she may not be as quick to want to take 2 weeks off . If the government will pay for "stress leave" for her, why will they not pay for people who may really need it because they do not have the pay, pensions or security of a public service job ?

oh well , okay

My wife is expecting twins and at one of our scans we were told one of the twins had a condition that was incompatable with life and that the baby would not live for long outside the womb , we were devastated and I took 2 weeks from my private sector job to look after the Mrs and get my own head straight .

The Dr put down stress on my sick cert so I was out for 2 weeks on stress leave . During this time I took the wife to lunch one day and another evening I called in to a work retrement party , had 1 coke , paid my respects and left .

To this day I still get sh1t from my colleagues that they had to pick up the slack while I was out having lunch with the wife and drinking at the weekends . All kinds of rumours flew around about me during those two weeks .

Point is nobody knows what sh1t is going on in peoples personal lives .

rainbowtrout

Liam_Flag wrote: »

Well I'd love to see a comparison of the numbers who have applied for Stress Leave in the Public Sector vs Private Sector.

And while I can appreciate it can be a serious illness in some cases...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's abused.
And it was abused in the op's example case ^^^

And you're basing that opinion on hearsay. If she is a PS worker in the HSE as seems to be the case and sends in a cert citing stress on it, if all PS bodies deal with this similarly she will be sent for independent assessment to find out the reason for the stress complaint so her supervisor/manager etc can investigate and take appropriate action. Of course as you are claiming, if she is a chancer that will come to light too. This is what is done with teachers.

The HSE, Dept of Education and several government/semi state bodies send employees for assessment if stress is stated on a medical cert and I know this because I was sent for assessment myself.

http://www.medmark.ie/clients.html