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The Freeze bites back -6th December onwards (All discussion here please)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    The 18z upgrades the ppn for tomorrow night.
    It has all the characterstics of a polar low.
    For the first time in 36 years of weather watching i'm worried about what this front will do to the country.
    Folks this is extreme

    Ppn looks almost identical or slightly less than the 12Z on GFS?

    18Z NAE has this as rain for below Ulster and the north midlands.

    10120618_0518.gif


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 7,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭pistolpetes11


    did somebody say polar low :eek::cool::D

    Wheres Su ?

    Talk of Polar low's is his speciality !


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,539 ✭✭✭kingshankly


    -5 here outside Dundalk like last night I think were in for another hard night


  • Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MonicaBing


    Em, excuse the dozy question, but what's a polar low & why is it a bad thing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Any polar low would be classified as such on... http://www.knmi.nl/satrep/latest.htm


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭123balltv


    The 18z upgrades the ppn for tomorrow night.
    It has all the characterstics of a polar low.
    For the first time in 36 years of weather watching i'm worried about what this front will do to the country.
    Folks this is extreme

    i got chills there multiplying :D cant wait bring on tomorrow night maybe my dreams will come through cause im off work till Friday so I dont care bout work


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    This is not a polar low!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,068 ✭✭✭Iancar29


    Hmmm i dunno about a polar low....

    Hav a nice read of this if yas hav the time people, gives some indications on what to look out for.

    3.1.1 Overview

    A typical lifespan of a polar low is 12-24 hours, with many dissipating rapidly after landfall. This short lifespan necessitates a timely response from the forecaster, as the whole event could develop and then decay in the interval between routine forecasts. Nowcasting of polar low events is therefore of utmost importance to enable maximum information to be issued to those affected by the event.
    Once a polar low has developed, the forecaster is concerned with its behaviour in the next few hours. The three main questions to be answered are:
    1. Will the low deepen further?
    2. Where and how fast will it move?
    3. When is it likely to dissipate?
    Monitoring the depth of the low in the first place may be difficult unless there are reliable ground based measurements of wind speed and pressure. In many cases, the forecaster only has satellite imagery and model fields available for assessing the situation. Given the limitations of these two sources, a knowledge of the structure and dynamics is necessary to make full use of available data.
    3.1.2 Using Surface and Upper Air Observations

    According to Rasmussen’s (2003) definition, a small scale arctic low becomes a polar low when the surface wind speed reaches or exceeds 28 knots.
    As the systems are often small and fast moving, careful monitoring of changes in wind speed and direction and weather conditions at a very few locations can give valuable information. Even with a single observation, knowledge of the likely wind structure can assist in assessing the position of the low's center, the movement of the low, and the location of the most hazardous conditions.
    The strongest wind occurs where the circulation flow is in the same direction as the steering flow. This is found on the right-hand side of the system in relation to its movement. On the left-hand side, winds are likely to be significantly lighter. On occasions where the low is situated very close to the coast, the circulation may draw in stable air from the land and actually suppress convective activity very close to the low center. This has been observed in lows along the Norwegian coast (Noer et al., 2003).
    plow_winds.gif
    Observations aloft, for example upper air soundings and aircraft reports, can be used to verify the accuracy of the NWP representation of upper-level systems that drive the polar low. If the upper pattern begins to deviate from the forecast, then the conclusions drawn from NWP data must be revisited and amended.

    3.1.3 NWP Guidance

    Many of today's operational models cannot often resolve the small-scale structure of a polar low. However, these models can give useful information on the large-scale flow in the area. Depending on the intensity and depth of the system itself, a suitable steering flow for the polar low can be defined. Using a 50-km regional model, Noer et al. (2003) defined the 700-hPa wind flow as a rule-of-thumb initial guess for the movement of the system.
    sat_with_700_winds.gif
    In the example shown, the polar low is clearly seen off the coast of Norway and is embedded in a northwesterly flow at 700 hPa with strength of around 25-30 knots. It has been observed that the speed of the polar low is typically 1/3 to 1/2 of the wind strength at this level.
    From an analysis of 41 recent polar lows over a four year period, Noer et al. (2003) concluded that the propogation speed of Norwegian Sea polar lows was usually 15-25 knots, depending on the strength of the background flow
    In reverse-shear situations, the steering flow can be very light, and so the low will be stationary or very slow moving.
    As well as forecasting the motion, NWP fields can be used to determine the likely evolution of the low. In most cases, the polar low forms due to a combination of a surface disturbance and an upper-air vorticity maximum within a cold pool or vortex. If the two phenomena remain linked for a period of time after a low forms, it is likely that the system will remain active for many hours. However, if the upper flow is very mobile and the upper trough or vortex moves beyond the surface low, the surface forcing alone will not be sufficient to sustain the system, and it will weaken. Baroclinic polar lows will normally only start to decay when negative dynamic forcing mechanisms, such as cold air advection or negative vorticity advection, start to play a dominant role.
    The accuracy of any NWP-based assessment is dependent on the proper handling of the atmospheric conditions by the model. If the position, speed, and timing of the features are in error, then the forecast intensity of the low will also be in error.
    Because of the small-scale and rapid development of a polar low, an operational model run may not forecast the event at all. Once the system has formed, however, the assimilation of satellite data and observations will encourage subsequent model runs to represent the low. Therefore, new issues of model data should be used as soon as available to provide the best guidance on the system, as well as the larger-scale forcing mechanisms.
    It is useful to determine as far as possible whether a polar low is mainly convectively driven, or baroclinic in nature. Convectively driven lows will tend to decay rapidly on land- or icefall, whereas a baroclinic system may persist until dynamic processes inhibit further development.

    3.1.4 Satellite Imagery Characteristics

    Some useful imagery characteristics to indicate that a low is of sufficient strength to be a polar low are:
    1. A clear eye in the center of the system. This only occurs in a few cases, where the upper-level divergence is stationary in relation to the surface low and encourages the vertical structure to form. The eye thus indicates a situation where the low has undergone rapid deepening and is likely to be associated with high wind speeds.
    2. Cirrus clouds in a wavelike pattern radiating from the center of the low indicates strong winds.
    3. A smooth, non-broken appearance of the upper cloud often indicates a strong polar low, whereas weaker lows can display individual CBs within the spiral of cloud.
    4. Higher cloud-top temperatures near the center, indicating sinking motion.
    5. Cloud-top temperatures are typically below -40ºC, and thus reach well beyond the 500-hPa height.
    wave_sat.gif
    The intensity and structure of a polar low may be deduced through careful analysis of satellite imagery. In the high latitudes where polar lows are found, however, the coverage of polar orbiting satellites can be patchy. The usefulness of satellite data depends on the timing and how quickly it is disseminated to the forecaster at the desk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭GavinH


    What are the possibilities for Cork?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    GavinH wrote: »
    What are the possibilities for Cork?

    Bring your umbrella. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    Now a seriously WTF set of charts for Wednesday morning:D


    Rtavn6017.png


    Rtavn604.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    MUSEIST wrote: »
    Just reading the last few pages, when did this become the 'lets whinge about the weather thread'. Its probably the most pointless thing you can do since nobody has any control over it, just deal with it and get on with it like everyone else.

    I agree, sick of people whinging that they don't have snow, complaining the snow is melting, the snow is turning to ice, that it is bad that the snow is thawing, that it is bad the weather will warm up hower temporary that is.

    I have a happy thaw thread, some were whinging about that too... :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭smodgley


    Knine wrote: »
    Ive to drive from Dublin 15 to Finglas tomorrow morning at 7am. I will have a toddler in tow. Would you chance it or stay in bed, bearing in mind my todller has missed her preschool all last week?

    honestly, if it was me id stay at home, but i dont know if they treat the roads etc where you are


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭je55ie


    GavinH wrote: »
    What are the possibilities for Cork?

    and Kerry??

    Can someone give a forecast for the south, because on yr.no it says snow tomorrow and on the 9.20 forecast it showed snow but for some reason Munster dont matter much !!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭Su Campu


    This is nothing resembling a polar low I'm afraid! :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    This is just pissing me off at this stage. My washing machine has been frozen since yesterday week. It's a complete pain in the arse and I'm ready to stamp my foot and scream. It wasn't so bad when the schools weren't open but it looks like they are all back tomorrow. Somebody forecast some warm weather please before I rip the internet apart. :mad::mad::mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,838 ✭✭✭✭3hn2givr7mx1sc


    Sorry to bother but what should it be like tonight/tomorrow for Laois?


  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭carlmwan


    MonicaBing wrote: »
    Em, excuse the dozy question, but what's a polar low & why is it a bad thing?
    it's a short lived storm with high winds and heavy precipitation. originates in arctic regions
    Mark (IWO)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    did somebody say polar low :eek::cool::D

    Somebody said :eek:

    Polar Low!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Villain wrote: »
    Nope in 10 days we get Big Freeze Number 2!

    This one will end Friday

    Thank God too, I need to stock up before I go under house arrest again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    PPVA89.png

    Looks interesting


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Su Campu wrote: »
    This is nothing resembling a polar low I'm afraid! :(

    For anyone not in the know, this is our Polar Low expert.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭Heyes


    When do we expect the next extreme weather to hit ? This evening ? Will it bring more snow to the Dublin area ? or more south ?

    I have to travel later in the week.. wed /thur and im curious to know wheather the roads will be similar to last week ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭je55ie


    Su Campu wrote: »
    This is nothing resembling a polar low I'm afraid! :(

    Did we have a polar low last winter?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    jessie37 wrote: »
    Did we have a polar low last winter?

    There was a polar bear, it hopped off that iceberg spotted off the Donegal coast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭isle of man


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Somebody said :eek:

    Polar Low!!!!


    sorry no polar low.
    the god of polar lows has spoken.




  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭LID


    Now a seriously WTF set of charts for Wednesday morning:D


    Rtavn6017.png


    Rtavn604.png

    Sorry, but what does this mean?!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Having watched the "extended" forecast a few minutes ago, the one thing that struck me was the down beat nature of the forecast, and looking at what's possibly coming, I wonder if ME are reluctant to issue another "severe" alert so soon after the non event that followed the last one, so they've tried to cover their bases by doing a longer forecast than was scheduled in order to make people aware of what was coming, without hitting the "panic" button.

    The temperatures in the Ashbourne area have been pretty dire all weekend, and the freezing fog has certainly made it's presence felt. Outside Air temp now is -4, and I think the best it was today was about +1

    What has been interesting is that overnight, the temperatures didn't dip as low as they had earlier in the week, but for the first time since the cold snap started, my pond (which is deep and has pumps running 24/7 to keep the filters running) had the beginnings of a layer of ice on top of it this morning.

    The roads around here are "interesting". The main roads are all passable, and in a lot of cases, there is not much snow or packed ice left on them, but there is black ice around in places. The minor roads are still not good, there is a lot of packed snow on them still, to the extent that there are not yet clear wheel tracks in all places. The estates are still dangerous, with packed snow and ice and very little evidence of thawing.

    More snow on them at the moment would help, as it would provide something that cars could possibly get grip on. Rain will be a nightmare, as it will freeze in many places, either as black ice, or just as bad, as sheet ice where it can't drain away because of blockages from existing ice and snow.

    What I can't understand are the way that many drivers are driving. On roads where there are wheel tracks down to tarmac, but snow ridges between they drive at about 20 Mph or less, but if the centre ridge goes away, they suddenly speed up to 30 or 40, but the road conditions that the wheels are seeing have not changed at all.

    There's no logic for that, other than a total non awareness of the real road conditions. It's really annoying when the road is wet, and it's clear that it's wet, rather than icy, in those conditions, all 20 Mph does is annoy a lot of people. when a Bus Eireann double decker can make better progress than a car, one has to wonder about the capabilities of the car driver! If I turn the radio off, I can tell very rapidly if the wheels are on water or ice, simply from the different noise, and if it's wet, then there's no point in wasting time by sitting at slow speeds. If it looks wet, but is quiet, then that's a different story if there's other traffic close or it's not a straight and level road, and it has to be driven with appropriate regard for the conditions.

    Then there are the people that don't know how to use a 4 x 4 in these conditions, and still insist on driving very slowly in the wheel ruts. If there is loose snow or slush, move into it, and use the 4 x 4 to spread it around, so that other vehicles can also spread it, as that will help remove more of the slush from the road and improve conditions for everyone. That also has the advantage as long as there's no other traffic in the opposite direction of giving more space on the nearside so that if something unexpected does happen, there's more road to sort it out. There's also the advantage of less risk of losing control in the loose stuff than in the ruts that could be black ice.

    The next few days are for sure going to be interesting, I'd love to see MT's latest comments on what's coming down now, as he seems to be very capable of putting a very accurate interpretation on it, despite being a long way away from the scene of the action.

    Steve

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭Dowdy20


    Any ideas on what the weather will be like for next weekend?? have to do a bit of traveling from Kilkenny to Waterford any hints on the weather conditions for the weekend much appreciated.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭je55ie


    snow ghost wrote: »
    There was a polar bear, it hopped off that iceberg spotted off the Donegal coast.

    :rolleyes: thats a no so!


This discussion has been closed.
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