Why people don't clear the snow off their properties?

nacho66

I'd like to say my word regarding freeze, snow and the whole winter thing as I had a little revelation this morning while walking to the city centre Now, I've been living my whole life, up until 3 years ago, in a country of cold and very snowy winters but I have never ever walked on an actual ice! During winter, a normal thing for every person was to grab a shovel and clear the snow or ice off the pavement in front of a building. And if it was not doable from any reason, at least throw some sand or salt on it. Not because it was fun or because you could gain a 1000 points worth achievement at xbox live, but because, and this is simple - it helped clear the pavements, which as a result allowed people to walk

So now, since the Ireland became a snow country herself, it would be maybe a great idea if every private and business property owner, tenant or, if it's a block of flats/offices, a building caretaker, instead of just admiring the snowfall and bitch about not being able to get to work, grabbed a shovel and cleared this goddamn snow off the pavement in front of the building. Maybe then the whole country wouldn't be on a stand by and waiting for a miracle called 'spring'.

BTW: is there no law in place that requires property owners to be responsible for the pavements in front of them?

Min

I said that last winter, there was a ridiculous news report of these people in a housing estate in Dublin who were complaining about the ice and snow on the pavements.
They looked like they had nothing to do, too busy complaining and expecting someone else to clear a bit of ice.

reverenddave

and do what with the snow ????????????

put it on the road to refreeze over night
creating a massive iceberg for the lovely motorists to write off their cars into

zagmund

I've cleared the snow and ice off the path in front of my house regularly.

People who go on with this rubbish about "but then they can sue you if you don't do it properly" are just looking for an excuse not to clear.

Look at it this way - if they don't clear and someone falls outside their house will they just stand there smugly and say "well, I didn't do anything so nobody can blame me" while the rest of the world will say "well, they didn't do anything :mad: to help reduce accidents so it's partly their fault."

z

wiblick

there is an underlying assumption that if we do clear our paths we are then liable for any accidents which might occur, if we don't do anything then it's not our fault.... I believe a statement was made last year by the government that householders are not liable if they do clear.

As to why we don't... I don't know. I haven't because I have no access to sand/grit to put on the path after I've cleared it and so I would be creating an ice-rink.

I thought maybe there would be definitive information on what to do from councils etc. this year, or you know maybe they would be prepped after what happened in January...

Cian92

I wouldn't dare do it... Last Winter, they reckoned you could be held responsible if someone slipped on your cleared path. Better safe than sorry.

zagmund

"Better safe than sorry" - see my post above. Safe for you sitting in your living room looking at the people outside. Not necessarily safe for the people outside.

z

nacho66

Cian92 wrote: »

I wouldn't dare do it... Last Winter, they reckoned you could be held responsible if someone slipped on your cleared path. Better safe than sorry.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Where's safe and where's sorry in this assumption?

mikemac

nacho66 wrote: »

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time... Morons do indeed rule this country

Hey, you can't blame the government on this one. Noel Dempsey was on the radio this week and explained very clearly you would not be liable if you cleared your footpath
And at the same time he explained what a person would have to prove if they wanted to sue you

Compo culture hasn't gone away and not everyone has public liability insurance.
A claim could ruin you

Blame the media who spread the stories on liability, the government only tried to clear it up

mymo

I have cleared infront of my house(in a small estate) 4 times so far, my idiot neighbour threw a bucket of hot water on the path between our houses "'cos there was some bits of snow left" now theres a sheet of ice by my gate that I can't clear.
There is no need to clear the whole path, I cleared a narrow bit down the middle about a foot wide(we have 9 inches and snowing again now), then swept any snow left away to the sides. If you only clear a strip you can pile snow up at the edges, no need to throw it on the road.

I have sadly overheard a woman nearby saying she'd have a great claim if she fell due to someone not clearing the footpath well enough, so I can see where people are coming from not clearing. There are people that would do that.

nacho66

feelingstressed wrote: »

Hey, you can't blame the government on this one. Noel Dempsey was on the radio this week and explained very clearly you would not be liable if you cleared your footpath
And at the same time he explained what a person would have to prove if they wanted to sue you

Compo culture hasn't gone away and not everyone has public liability insurance.
A claim could ruin you

Blame the media who spread the stories on liability, the government only tried to clear it up

I actually removed that phrase about government just before you posted your reply. Felt It's actually not fair to put this on the government

wiblick

earlier in the week people who wanted to help in rural areas were being blocked because they hadn't undergone health & safety training in the correct way to spread grit:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/farmers.html

this has since been overturned:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1202/weather_grit.html

but an announcement beyond talk shows on radios would help in connection with educating people about what to do.

HellFireClub

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone started up a politically correct and ridiculous thread such as this. What's wrong with a bit of snow on the ground outside your house??? I fail to see the big deal and why people should feel obliged to start shovelling snow from outside their house???

mikemac

Heard that story too wiblick

Farmers need to get the milk lorry to their property but it's not always possible with snow and ice

They have fertilizer spreaders and have offered to spread grit for free if the council will provide it.
But then the liability issue comes up

It went to the Attorney General last winter and was sorted out but even now,
some councils are sorting this, some are hesitating

Compo culture has people paralyzed with fear

redt0m

And to think that in countries like Germany, people are obliged to clear snow outside their homes/businesses...

af_thefragile

If I clear the snow off the front of my house, the ground will just end up freezing over and would be worse. Atleast the snow gives traction and stops you from sliding on it. Ice would be much more dangerous to walk on. Also there's the question of what do you do with the snow? Where would you put it??

Plazaman

If you're talking about clearing public footpaths outside you're house on roadside, technically this is Council property. But regardless, clearing it should be done as a matter of civic co-operation. If someone does slip and fall (a) how would they know who cleared it (unless they actually fall whilst you're doing it) (b) it's the council that would be sued not the homeowner (c) if the slip and fall on your driveway and have the cheek to sue, then some revenge tactics can be put into action, say you never invited them in and that they were trespassing when they fell.

(I see crime rates are down countrywide due to the cold weather)

nacho66

HellFireClub wrote: »

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone started up a politically correct and ridiculous thread such as this. What's wrong with a bit of snow on the ground outside your house??? I fail to see the big deal and why people should feel obliged to start shovelling snow from outside their house???

What's ridiculous is that you "fail to see the big deal and why people should feel obliged to start shovelling snow from outside their house".

What's the purpose of this? Maybe to allow other people walk safely? Allow them to get to work? School? Goddamn grocery?

nacho66

af_thefragile wrote: »

If I clear the snow off the front of my house, the ground will just end up freezing over and would be worse. Atleast the snow gives traction and stops you from sliding on it. Ice would be much more dangerous to walk on. Also there's the question of what do you do with the snow? Where would you put it??

Traction? Have you actually walked in high populated areas like centre of the city? There's no traction mate... there's a bump-shaped layer of ice!

I really cannot believe one can use such an excuse

Highly Salami

Plazaman wrote: »

(I see crime rates are down countrywide due to the cold weather)

yep, its easier to track people in the snow.

d'Oracle

nacho66 wrote: »

BTW: is there no law in place that requires property owners to be responsible for the pavements in front of them?

Not yet.
There is in Germany.

I hope Ollie isn't reading.

nacho66

1) you clear a 1 meter wide path on the pavement
2) you put the snow aside the path
3) you put some sand or gravel on it so it's not slippery

Is this that difficult?

kkontour

nacho66 wrote: »

Traction? Have you actually walked in high populated areas like centre of the city? There's no traction mate... there's a bump-shaped layer of ice!

I really cannot believe one can use such an excuse

I guess it would depend on where you live so.
Where I live is less populated and the footpaths are only slippy where people have cleared off the snow leaving a thin layer of slippery ice beneath.

af_thefragile

nacho66 wrote: »

Traction? Have you actually walked in high populated areas like centre of the city? There's no traction mate... there's a bump-shaped layer of ice!

I really cannot believe one can use such an excuse

Not outside my house.
There like 4 inches of fluffy snow over 2-3 inches of compacted snow. Much better to walk on than on frozen, icy ground.
You won't slide on snow...

I'll wait till the snow becomes icy and a skating rig before I consider clearing it...

mikemac

I read a post elsewhere on boards on some 1899 law that means shop owners in Ireland have to clear outside their shop.

Some do, most don't from what I've seen

HellFireClub

nacho66 wrote: »

What's ridiculous is that you "fail to see the big deal and why people should feel obliged to start shovelling snow from outside their house".

What's the purpose of this? Maybe to allow other people walk safely? Allow them to get to work? School? Goddamn grocery?

What's the point when it's probably going to snow again on what you've shovelled up??? Complete waste of time... What p*sses me off most about this country in the last few years is this thing were people feel that we have to legislate for absolutely every eventuality nowadays. All people in this country seem to want to do these days is spend their time looking over their neighbours wall and finger wagging and complaining.

We don't get snow that often, let's try to enjoy the change of scenery without feeling the need to dream up a completely new set of stupid politically correct norms and ridiculous whims and then creating angst by trying to hold our neighbour to a new little mini code of conduct for a snow event.

d'Oracle

feelingstressed wrote: »

Blame the media who spread the stories on liability, the government only tried to clear it up

WHAT?

NO. Blame the litigious mongrels who sue for bloody everything.
Blame the successive half assed governments who have done nothing to prevent frivolous and unfair litigation in general. Allowing the Compo culture to thrive and Insurance costs to sky rocket, driving up the cost of living for all.

nacho66

d'Oracle wrote: »

Not yet.
There is in Germany.

I hope Ollie isn't reading.

In Poland as well

redman

Cleared snow earlier in the week and path got dangerously slippy the following morning ....so no more clearing in front of my house unless I can get a bone dry pathway that won't freeze.

Walking an elderly neighbour also recently I saw how dangerous these cleared areas are and she was praying people would leave the snow to give her a chance not to slip!

Poochie05

Well all the shopkeepers are out in Wexford town this morning clearing ice and gritting. Having said that you can see where some people cleared their patch yesterday and these are lethal this morning you'd need to be on 24 hr call to keep up with it. I

Maj Malfunction

Much easier to walk on concrete that is ice and snow free. Its not that difficult to clear a walkway on a foot path, nor will it be slippy if you spend 5-10 minutes of your day to clear it.

You are not liable if someone falls on the footpath outside your house. Point aside, the claimant would have to prove you cleared it in the first place.

So get your shovel out if you want to go to work!

wildefalcon

Where there isn;t much traffic the leaving hte snow to provide traction works.

WHere there is a lot of foot traffic a path should be cleared and gritted/salted. If you just clear the snow the remaining ice thaws for a bit and re-freezes and leaves a sheet of ice.

JDxtra

We don’t do it because we’re not used to getting regular weather like this. If we had 20 winters like this, then a generation would evolve to be as considerate and unified as the Germans.

thetonynator

af_thefragile wrote: »

If I clear the snow off the front of my house, the ground will just end up freezing over and would be worse. Atleast the snow gives traction and stops you from sliding on it. Ice would be much more dangerous to walk on. Also there's the question of what do you do with the snow? Where would you put it??

Snow doesn't give traction, after it is walked on a few times it turns into compacted ice which is worse than anything else for walking on. Also pile the snow against the wall or if you have a garden at the front dump it in there.

d'Oracle wrote: »

Not yet.
There is in Germany.

I hope Ollie isn't reading.

Ollies from finland!!!

nacho66

HellFireClub wrote: »

What's the point when it's probably going to snow again on what you've shovelled up??? Complete waste of time... What p*sses me off most about this country in the last few years is this thing were people feel that we have to legislate for absolutely every eventuality nowadays. All people in this country seem to want to do these days is spend their time looking over their neighbours wall and finger wagging and complaining.

We don't get snow that often, let's try to enjoy the change of scenery without feeling the need to dream up a completely new set of stupid politically correct norms and ridiculous whims and then creating angst by trying to hold our neighbour to a new little mini code of conduct for a snow event.

What's the point of taking a shower then? You will get dirty again!

However, now that you put this that way, I can see why you wouldn't clear the snow

Not outside my house.
There like 4 inches of fluffy snow over 2-3 inches of compacted snow. Much better to walk on than on frozen, icy ground.
You won't slide on snow...

That's only if you think clearing the snow is the only thing you can do. Well, clearing the snow is enough when you do it right after the snowfall. If you do it later, you obviously have to break the ice as well. Clearing the path is not just clearing the snow... it's making the path walkable !!

thetonynator

JDxtra wrote: »

We don’t do it because we’re not used to getting regular weather like this. If we had 20 winters like this, then a generation would evolve to be as considerate and unified as the Germans.

Cold spells like this used to be a much more regular occurance apparently, we hardly all forgot how in the space of 20 years???

John mac

Put up a sign saying slippery surface. :D

nacho libre

it really sickens me that there are humans who only see opportunities to sue other people for their kindness/ civic mindedness(?)

anyway. perhaps adequate winter footwear might also be a solution to slippy footpaths

http://www.tracktion.ca/main.html

nacho66

nacho libre wrote: »

it really sickens me that there are humans who only see opportunities to sue other people for their kindness/ civic mindedness(?)

anyway. perhaps adequate winter footwear might also be a solution to slippy footpaths

http://www.tracktion.ca/main.html

I don't get your mentality... Reason I post such subject and concern is exactly opposite to wanting to sue someone. I don't want to break a leg I don't want to sue anyone about it. Clear paths would help such situations not to happen

Besides... it's not about me and my legs... Such approach as presented by many here doesn't help the country avoid a stand still in which schools and offices are closed as people are literally afraid of walking and driving

Not

I tryed to clear snow off the footpath outside the front gate. It was back breaking as there was a two inch deep layer of solid ice under it. Not having a pickaxe, and being worried about breaking the pavement if had, I gave up after I'd spent half an hour hacking away an area of about 1 ft X 3ft. Then as I'd created a lethal hole with kerb height lips around the edges I ended up filling the lot back in with snow again. You see, if you clear the snow, you have to remove the ice under it as well, otherwise you are just leaving it more slippy, its easier to walk on trampled snow than it is to walk on exposed ice. Having said that with yesterdays snowfall leaving 1 foot depth on the ground, it would be no harm to skim off the top 9 - 10 inches so that people can walk without sinking half way up to their knees in it.

nacho libre

nacho66 wrote: »

I don't get your mentality... Reason I post such subject and concern is exactly opposite to wanting to sue someone. I don't want to break a leg I don't want to sue anyone about it. Clear paths would help such situations not to happen

Besides... it's not about me and my legs... Such approach as presented by many here doesn't help the country avoid a stand still in which schools and offices are closed as people are literally afraid of walking and driving

what is there to get? i wasn't attacking you, i was just making a general comment about people who would be of a mind to sue people who are civic minded.

seamus

nacho66 wrote: »

BTW: is there no law in place that requires property owners to be responsible for the pavements in front of them?

Thankfully there's not. I didn't pay for the public land in front of my house, I wouldn't appreciate being legally compelled to do anything with it unless it also gave me the right to cordon it off and use it for barbecues. It's public land, I pay taxes for the state to look after it. You want me to look after it, then it should legally belong to me.

feelingstressed wrote: »

Blame the media who spread the stories on liability, the government only tried to clear it up

...and they failed miserably. Something along the lines of "It's not a problem so long as the person has made a reasonable attempt at making it safe". Well therein lies the problem. You could legally show that if the path is unsafe, then the person who cleared did not make a reasonable attempt at making it safe and can be sued.

Of course they could find out who did it, because we know the council didn't.

nacho66 wrote: »

1) you clear a 1 meter wide path on the pavement
2) you put the snow aside the path
3) you put some sand or gravel on it so it's not slippery

Is this that difficult?

Where does someone living in the city get their hands on sand or gravel within walking/carrying distance? I'm not in the city centre, the nearest place I could conceivably get sand is 2 miles away and my car is snowed in. I'm not carrying 5kg of sand 2 miles home, just to clear some snow. Like Mike says, I'll leave the snow there until it becomes ice at which point I'll take a hammer and a shovel and clear it out.

funkyjebus

zagmund wrote: »

I've cleared the snow and ice off the path in front of my house regularly.

People who go on with this rubbish about "but then they can sue you if you don't do it properly" are just looking for an excuse not to clear.

Look at it this way - if they don't clear and someone falls outside their house will they just stand there smugly and say "well, I didn't do anything so nobody can blame me" while the rest of the world will say "well, they didn't do anything :mad: to help reduce accidents so it's partly their fault."

z

I'm afraid that not how laibiltiy works.

d'Oracle

thetonynator wrote: »

Ollies from finland!!!

Yeah, but I don't know the names of anyone else associated with our new German Overlords.

ayumi

i have cleared my driveway with hot water and a shovel but it hadnt made a sheet of ice it actually helped to take the snow/ice off the driveway.I also did this for the pathway in front of my garden and there is no snow on it

Sierra Oscar

reverenddave wrote: »

and do what with the snow ????????????

put it on the road to refreeze over night
creating a massive iceberg for the lovely motorists to write off their cars into

Put it into a pile by the side of the footpath/road, like everyone else has to do.

zagmund

funkyjebus wrote: »

I'm afraid that not how laibiltiy works.

I'm not talking liability, I'm talking public service and community focus.

z

JONJO THE MISER

mymo wrote: »

I have cleared infront of my house(in a small estate) 4 times so far, my idiot neighbour threw a bucket of hot water on the path between our houses "'cos there was some bits of snow left" now theres a sheet of ice by my gate that I can't clear.

Slips outside mymo's house * aww my back* /rings my solicitor.

Stinicker

I ran the boiler at full whack until the tank was bubbling then connected my garden hose and melted snow and ice off all my footpaths and driveway with it. Then I took my coarse brush and brushed the water and icy debris out of the way, leaving a dryish surface. I then salted the heck out of it with Lidl's finest cheap table salt, about half an hours work and it was no big deal costing under €5 in salt and kerosene to heat the water. I don't see the big deal and haven't had a bit of trouble the last few days with it as I had no new snowfall.

redt0m wrote: »

And to think that in countries like Germany, people are obliged to clear snow outside their homes/businesses...

In Germany they take snow in their stride and I was there in March and got some real heavy showers of late snow. The german salters were out at 6am and salted the whole place and cleared the snow. The hotel staff where I was staying were clearing the driveway and salting and I helped them for a few minutes clear behind my rental car and they made easy work of it. They got several inches yet the Autobahn was open and I took to it with my rental car complete with Winter tyres and was soon cruising at 200km/h in conditions that cause Armageddon in this country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGYiiuVRays

d'Oracle

zagmund wrote: »

I'm not talking liability, I'm talking public service and community focus.

z

I just spent an hour breaking ice up on the footpath outside mine and my elderly next door neighbors gaffs.

Go me.

Captain Commie

In every news broadcast this week it has been mentioned that the government have asked for home/buisness owners to clear paths outside their property - why poeple dont is beyond me.

With regards to liability, this was cleared up last year, if anyone tries to make a claim then no solicitor would take the case else they face disciplinary issues with the law society.

I live in an apartment block and spent about 20 mins last night clearing a path to the door, one of my neighbours has also been doing the same. Was annoying as the management company obviously didnt see fit to do anything.

It really doesnt take much effort to clear some snow/ice and make pavements a little safer for people to walk on, especially on streets and roads that are walked along often.