The Status Of Irish.

Krusader

The quote is true though, there are people on this thread who know the price of everything but the value of nothing



It won't work, the English made languages optional and every year there's a decrease in students doing languages.
Proper teaching of primary school teachers in colleges needs to be done 1st
More emphasis on conversation and aural, less on prose, poems
More promotion of the language, Gaeltacht Quarters in Dublin/Cork/Limerick
More Gaeilscoileanna/Gaelcholáiste to meet demand

marienbad

Crosáidí wrote: »

The quote is true though, there are people on this thread who know the price of everything but the value of nothing



It won't work, the English made languages optional and every year there's a decrease in students doing languages.
Proper teaching of primary school teachers in colleges needs to be done 1st
More emphasis on conversation and aural, less on prose, poems
More promotion of the language, Gaeltacht Quarters in Dublin/Cork/Limerick
More Gaeilscoileanna/Gaelcholáiste to meet demand

And you do know the price and value I take it ? Where can this knowledge be aquired may I be so bold as to ask ?

MysticalRain

Well the education budget will be slashed to bits in the next few years, so good luck with all that. I would rather we focused on producing people who can teach science and maths properly, which probably makes me some kind of traitor/west Brit in the eyes of the Irish language lobby. Besides, if the language is really as popular among the irish people as they claim, then teaching the language in school for 10 years instead 12 wouldn't make a huge difference either way.

dermot_sheehan

Coerced use of the language, both in the public sector and education has failed to promote it's use and just created resentment.

Public funds are wasted in the most tangential way to "support" the language in the gaeltacht (how a gaeltacht dweller getting a tax payer funded grant for this that and the other supports the language is really beyond me).

Gaelscoil are oversubscribed, and look like the best bet for the language, though how much of that is genuine love for the language and how much is self selecting elitism amongst parents who want their children to be with other children from academic minded families.

The coercion and throwing tax payer's money at the language has not worked, why will plans to engage in even more coercion and tax payer spending bear fruit?

Why not just back off government involvement in language promotion, and let people speak the way they want to speak? It will reduce resentment towards the language.

Lord TSC

gabhain7 wrote: »

Gaelscoil are oversubscribed, and look like the best bet for the language, though how much of that is genuine love for the language and how much is self selecting elitism amongst parents who want their children to be with other children from academic minded families.

While there is a certain level of elitism involved, again I say that the oversubscription is not just a problem in the Gaelscoilenna but in every school around the country. Every school is bursting at the seams. The problem is that the GS's use this fact to make it seem like there's a demand for their style of teaching, when the truth is there's a demand for schools in general...

Dionysus

gabhain7 wrote: »

Gaelscoil are oversubscribed, and look like the best bet for the language, though how much of that is genuine love for the language and how much is self selecting elitism amongst parents who want their children to be with other children from academic minded families.

1. Why wanting your children to associate with the children of other academically-inclined and ambitious parents is seen as wrong is beyond me. I'd much rather send my kids to a school based on this motivation of self-progress, intellectual growth, cultural open-mindedness and academic high standards than send them to a certain school because they might make better business connections there. No doubt about that.

2. It's nice to know that people who send their children to the average run-of-the-mill sectarian English language school in Ireland do not put much thought or selectivity into that choice. The fee-paying ultra English Roman Catholic rugby schools, the non-fee-paying ultra Roman Catholic all girls schools, the Educate Together schools .... It would seem that your real problem with Irish parents who choose to send their children to gaelscoileanna and meánscoileanna is that you don't like that choice. The fact that all Irish parents make choices based on their cultural and social preferences for their children's education is seemingly an irrelevant context. Instead, you're trying to single out a group of parents who make a choice you can't appreciate.

gabhain7 wrote: »

Why not just back off government involvement in language promotion

Does this include the hundreds of millions spent promoting English? The amount of government-financed literature, which I've no interest in reading, thrown at me in that language is indefensible.

gabhain7 wrote: »

It will reduce resentment towards the language.

Through reinforcing prejudice, intolerance, monoculturalism and the petty hatreds of the most mediocre members of society in Ireland. "Progress" indeed. You might as well contend that if we deprive immigrants of their rights they'll go away and we'll then be able to reduce resentment towards them. :rolleyes:

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

Well the education budget will be slashed to bits in the next few years, so good luck with all that. I would rather we focused on producing people who can teach science and maths properly, which probably makes me some kind of traitor/west Brit in the eyes of the Irish language lobby. Besides, if the language is really as popular among the irish people as they claim, then teaching the language in school for 10 years instead 12 wouldn't make a huge difference either way.

Funny you should say that, I read an article about a study done by Queen's University that said that kids in Gaeilscoileanna out perform their peers in English language schools in Maths and English. The effects of being bi-lingual at hand

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

While there is a certain level of elitism involved, again I say that the oversubscription is not just a problem in the Gaelscoilenna but in every school around the country. Every school is bursting at the seams. The problem is that the GS's use this fact to make it seem like there's a demand for their style of teaching, when the truth is there's a demand for schools in general...

That hasent been my experience, my old primary school had to close down due to a lack of new pupils. Schools in some areas may have waiting lists, but not all areas(Which is obvious because if there was then some people would not be getting an education)
There are Gaelscoileanna whos waiting list is longer than there are places in the school.

Coerced use of the language, both in the public sector and education has failed to promote it's use and just created resentment.

Public funds are wasted in the most tangential way to "support" the language in the gaeltacht (how a gaeltacht dweller getting a tax payer funded grant for this that and the other supports the language is really beyond me).

Gaelscoil are oversubscribed, and look like the best bet for the language, though how much of that is genuine love for the language and how much is self selecting elitism amongst parents who want their children to be with other children from academic minded families.

The coercion and throwing tax payer's money at the language has not worked, why will plans to engage in even more coercion and tax payer spending bear fruit?

Why not just back off government involvement in language promotion, and let people speak the way they want to speak? It will reduce resentment towards the language.

This is an often trotted out line, If there is so much resentment for the Irish language, then why is it so hard to find? In every opinion poll on peoples attuide to Irish there has been an overwhelming positive responce.

As for plans for more coercion and spending, What plan is this?

Iwasfrozen

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not a hope that Fine Gael will make it optional, they're probably looking for votes from the easily lead

What makes you say that? If it's in their policy then they obviously plan to implement it. And they will have a mandate to do so.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

In every opinion poll on peoples attuide to Irish there has been an overwhelming positive responce.

But no corresponding surge in numbers signing-up for voluntary Irish language classes.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for plans for more coercion and spending, What plan is this?

the recently announced 20 year strategy? The one that's going to make 250,000 people speak Irish?

MysticalRain

Crosáidí wrote: »

Funny you should say that, I read an article about a study done by Queen's University that said that kids in Gaeilscoileanna out perform their peers in English language schools in Maths and English. The effects of being bi-lingual at hand

and of course the fact that many of these kids happen to have pushy middle/upper class parents obsessed with education just happens to have nothing to do with it.

Speaking of news articles, some Gaelic schools apparently can't even teach Irish properly. So go figure.

Inspectors reveal poor level of Irish at Gaelscoil
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/inspectors-reveal-poor-level-of-irish-at-gaelscoil-2234526.html

dermot_sheehan

Dionysus wrote: »

1. Why wanting your children to associate with the children of other academically-inclined and ambitious parents is seen as wrong is beyond me. I'd much rather send my kids to a school based on this motivation of self-progress, intellectual growth, cultural open-mindedness and academic high standards than send them to a certain school because they might make better business connections there. No doubt about that.

2. It's nice to know that people who send their children to the average run-of-the-mill sectarian English language school in Ireland do not put much thought or selectivity into that choice. The fee-paying ultra English Roman Catholic rugby schools, the non-fee-paying ultra Roman Catholic all girls schools, the Educate Together schools .... It would seem that your real problem with Irish parents who choose to send their children to gaelscoileanna and meánscoileanna is that you don't like that choice. The fact that all Irish parents make choices based on their cultural and social preferences for their children's education is seemingly an irrelevant context. Instead, you're trying to single out a group of parents who make a choice you can't appreciate.

That's a straw man if I ever saw one, I never singled out gael scoil for criticism, and accept it's the same as children being sent to fee paying schools.

The issue of whether parents should be able to send children to schools which are less likely to have immigrant, traveller or special needs children is in fairness a separate debate. The fact is the many parents want the best for their children which includes sending them to establishments less likely to have other children who will find it difficult to learn in the education system.

The same considerations apply to parents sending their children to gaescoil as fee paying schools and I was not singling out parents who sent their kids to gaelscoil, I was just indicating it may be grounds for their popularity rather then love for the irish language.

Does this include the hundreds of millions spent promoting English? The amount of government-financed literature, which I've no interest in reading, thrown at me in that language is indefensible.

This statement is ridiculous, to the extent it devalues the rest of your argument.

Through reinforcing prejudice, intolerance, monoculturalism and the petty hatreds of the most mediocre members of society in Ireland. "Progress" indeed. You might as well contend that if we deprive immigrants of their rights they'll go away and we'll then be able to reduce resentment towards them. :rolleyes:

More ridiculous strawmanship.

To live in a Liberal progressive society where people are free do do what they want and speak the language they want is not intolerance.

Quite the contrary.

dermot_sheehan

Crosáidí wrote: »

Funny you should say that, I read an article about a study done by Queen's University that said that kids in Gaeilscoileanna out perform their peers in English language schools in Maths and English. The effects of being bi-lingual at hand

a common error.

Correlation does not equal causation, one reason amongst many could be that children who are naturally more academically gifted are sent to gaelscoil while those who aren't are send to anglophone schools.

dermot_sheehan

deise go deo wrote: »

This is an often trotted out line, If there is so much resentment for the Irish language, then why is it so hard to find? In every opinion poll on peoples attuide to Irish there has been an overwhelming positive responce.

Why then despite 80 years of nearly every child having an elementary education in speaking irish does no one speak it?

Krusader

gabhain7 wrote: »

Why then despite 80 years of nearly every child having an elementary education in speaking irish does no one speak it?

Because they don't get an elementary education in speaking Irish
A child doesn't even learn the modh coinníollach until 3rd year, so after around 9 years in school, you learn to say,
bheinn - i would be, if it takes the DoE 9 yrs to bring a simple tense into the education curriculum, the child isn't getting much of an education in the Irish language.
Primary school reform is needed in 2nd language learning

marienbad

Crosáidí wrote: »

Because they don't get an elementary education in speaking Irish
A child doesn't even learn the modh coinníollach until 3rd year, so after around 9 years in school, you learn to say,
bheinn - i would be, if it takes the DoE 9 yrs to bring a simple tense into the education curriculum, the child isn't getting much of an education in the Irish language.
Primary school reform is needed in 2nd language learning

It took us 80 years and a billion at todays money to learn that ? and the same crowd are going to lead us into this bright new multilingual future ?

yea right.

Krusader

marienbad wrote: »

It took us 80 years and a billion at todays money to learn that ? and the same crowd are going to lead us into this bright new multilingual future ?

yea right.

What??

cyclopath2001

marienbad wrote: »

It took us 80 years and a billion at todays money to learn that ? and the same crowd are going to lead us into this bright new multilingual future ?

yea right.

It's much worse than that. Compulsory Irish lessons for English speakers cost 650m a year, so the true cost of the failed Irish language project is many billion.

In IT, The standard procedure in any failed project is to conceal the failure by increasing scope and by coercing the unfortunate end users. That's what we're seeing in the new Strategy.

Krusader

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's much worse than that. Compulsory Irish lessons for English speakers cost 650m a year, so the true cost of the failed Irish language project is many billion.

In IT, The standard procedure in any failed project is to conceal the failure by increasing scope and by coercing the unfortunate end users. That's what we're seeing in the new Strategy.

compulsary English and maths and in some schools a 3rd language also cost in the millions, what about the kids that fail to do well in these, waste of money aswell i suppose

No one is concealing the failure, everyone knows the teaching of languages in this country is atrocious.
The new Strategy has more to do with the promotion of Irish in everyday social and business life, you'd know that if you read it

marienbad

Crosáidí wrote: »

compulsary English and maths and in some schools a 3rd language also cost in the millions, what about the kids that fail to do well in these, waste of money aswell i suppose

No one is concealing the failure, everyone knows the teaching of languages in this country is atrocious.
The new Strategy has more to do with the promotion of Irish in everyday social and business life, you'd know that if you read it

I have read it,why would we have confidence in this document when all previous ones were dismal failures and the same dead hands are at the tiller ?

Krusader

marienbad wrote: »

I have read it,why would we have confidence in this document when all previous ones were dismal failures and the same dead hands are at the tiller ?

You don't have confidence in anything relating to the Irish language so it shouldn't bother you

deise go deo

gabhain7 wrote: »

Why then despite 80 years of nearly every child having an elementary education in speaking irish does no one speak it?

You have an interisting idea of 'No One' There are tens of thousands of daily speakers of Irish(Outside the Education system) Tens of thousands more who use Irish on a regular basis as their second language.

Its hard to speak a Language you were never tought to speak, Children learn how to look at Irish writen on a page. They learn how to memorise poems, and essayes, but speak the Language? No

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

I have read it,why would we have confidence in this document when all previous ones were dismal failures and the same dead hands are at the tiller ?

There were no previouse ones. That was the problem.
There has never been a joined up stratgy to promote Irish untill now, Thats why we are in the situation we are in.

For most of the time since the state was founded you had one department trying to teach Irish, another trying to promote Irish in the Gaelthachts(Without any cross planning) and the rest of the government ignoring the Existence of Irish uness a polition had to make a guesture, after which Irish was quickly brushed under the carpet again.

marienbad

Crosáidí wrote: »

You don't have confidence in anything relating to the Irish language so it shouldn't bother you

Not with the people running the project having such a history of failure , no. The more appropriate question is why would you have confidence in them ?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Its hard to speak a Language you were never tought to speak,

It's hard to speak a language which is not the language of your parents.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's hard to speak a language which is not the language of your parents.

Its hard to become perfectly fluent, but to speak it is not to hard when its
taught right.

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

Not with the people running the project having such a history of failure , no. The more appropriate question is why would you have confidence in them ?

What people? Do you know who you are talking about? The people responciple for the 20 year plan are are in reletavily new departments, The office of an commisúinéir Teanga has only been around since 2003. They hardly have a history of failure.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Its hard to become perfectly fluent, but to speak it is not to hard when its taught right.

Is that the reason why so many Irish people took up English - a superior English-language method to the current Irish-language method?

marienbad

deise go deo wrote: »

What people? Do you know who you are talking about? The people responciple for the 20 year plan are are in reletavily new departments, The office of an commisúinéir Teanga has only been around since 2003. They hardly have a history of failure.

Deise , and what have they done in 8 years , in any other endeavor that is a long time . And how many of the old brigade are still around . Come on Deise , the leopard might change he spots but it is still a leopard.

the game is up I am afraid , we will soldier on for another generation or two building up yet more resentment and in 20 years time we will have the same discussions.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Is that the reason why so many Irish people took up English - a superior English-language method to the current Irish-language method?

Superior? No, I would not use that word. More successful because of the brutal and discriminatory methods used.


Like Irish being banned in Schools in 1831.

Another feature of the schools was that instruction was through the medium of English, with Irish being forbidden even in Gaelic speaking areas like west Clare. Furthermore, Irish history was not taught, the children being instructed only in English history.

Children being beaten for every word of Irish spoken, or in some places a more sadistic twist was employed where a 'bataí scóir' was used where the teacher marked each use of Irish by the child and then the parents beet them at home.

Of course there were no state services available through Irish and the famine devastated Irish speaking communities, Irish was associated with Shame and poverty.

This is how Irish was destroyed intentionally as a community language in almost the whole country. In linguistic terms, what happened to the Irish language is almost without comparison, Languages do wax and wane and some go out of use entirely, but not in the space of a few generations.

Some people like to convince themselves that a population 'deciding' to abandon their own language is somehow normal. In reality it is almost unheard of. Their is an explanation as to why it happened here, but in the main, choice is not part of that explanation.

Deise , and what have they done in 8 years , in any other endeavor that is a long time . And how many of the old brigade are still around . Come on Deise , the leopard might change he spots but it is still a leopard.

the game is up I am afraid , we will soldier on for another generation or two building up yet more resentment and in 20 years time we will have the same discussions.

God no, 8 years is not even short term.
8 years in the endeavor of changing the language habits of a population dosent even register in terms of what you can expect to achieve.
Ireland's rapid shift to English is almost with out compare. Progress in an area like changing peoples languages can take generations. Indeed it took the British a good 500 years from when they started at the Statutes of Killkenny in 1366 to change Ireland's language to English.