The Status Of Irish.

deise go deo

Here is another Survey that shows Wide Support for the Irish language.

A Survey on Attitudes to Irish in North Antrim



Note: Questions Need to be Viewed in a Northern Context.

marienbad

Deise, lets not rehash the whole thread again but I must have a go a a couple of points.

To my point about Love of the language v compulsion you again rehash the old idea of a lower status language which may or may not be true in our case. We just dont know because current policies have brought the language to its lowest ebb it its history and there seems to be no recognition from you of this. Compusion has been central to this failure.

On my point about of failed entities --It is at best disgenuous of you to lay responsibility solely or even mainly with the Dept of Education. You know full well the power of the language lobbies and the iron control they have on any change and to pretend otherwise is the attitude I alluded
in my last post.

On your point of the failed curriculum, why did this take 80 years to discover, and why would you have faith in those that took 80 years to do so.Can you not accept that if the language is to be saved radical change is needed and it is time for new blood. You say you cant see my point re the new methods failing ! I ask you again why would you have so much faith in entities that have been such a failure in the past.

On your final point that the language is more popular than ever - not so
In the only survey that really counts - less people speak it now than on the day we gained independance, that is some indictment

deise go deo

Gambler wrote: »

Surely in the short term it would be better to have classes of 30 that are full of people that are there because they want to learn then language than to have classes where the few people in the class that would actually like to learn the language are surrounded by people that are just taking the piss and learning the bare minimum to get by though..

Well maybe your Experience is different to mine but there were just as many people taking the piss in French and Business studies(Both Optional) As there was in my Irish Class they tended to be the same people too.

The thing is that most students are not inclined to taking the Piss. Some are, But they are the minority, And will be the Minority Either way. So In my opinion leaving irish compulsory will not result in Interested students being Drowned out by Disruptive students. It would happen just as much in Maths and English If it was going to happen in Irish.

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

Deise, lets not rehash the whole thread again but I must have a go a a couple of points.

To my point about Love of the language v compulsion you again rehash the old idea of a lower status language which may or may not be true in our case. We just dont know because current policies have brought the language to its lowest ebb it its history and there seems to be no recognition from you of this. Compusion has been central to this failure.

I fully recognise that the Current system is not working, However, I disagree on the Reason Why. I disagree that Compulsion has been central to the Failure. You can say that it is, but if you want to convince me you will have to do more than just say it.

On my point about of failed entities --It is at best disgenuous of you to lay responsibility solely or even mainly with the Dept of Education. You know full well the power of the language lobbies and the iron control they have on any change and to pretend otherwise is the attitude I alluded
in my last post.

The department of education is responsible for the Curriculum, Both they and the Governing Party,(FF) are responsible for not addressing the Failure of the Curriculum. Language Lobbies have no 'Iron Grip' If they had the Curriculum would have been reformed long ago.

On your point of the failed curriculum, why did this take 80 years to discover, and why would you have faith in those that took 80 years to do so.Can you not accept that if the language is to be saved radical change is needed and it is time for new blood. You say you cant see my point re the new methods failing ! I ask you again why would you have so much faith in entities that have been such a failure in the past.

It dident. It hasent taken 80 years for the problem to be recognized, The main Irish Language organisation(CnaG) has recognized that there is a problem for some time, It is the State, not Language lobbies that are dragging their feet.
DeV was told in the 50's that the System then in place would not revive the language. His response was that the Experiment wasent over yet.
So to answer the question, Yes there dose need to be change, Reforming the Curriculum is Change.
And No I have no faith in Entities(FF) that are responsible for the failure of the Past

On your final point that the language is more popular than ever - not so
In the only survey that really counts - less people speak it now than on the day we gained independance, that is some indictment

Popular, Not more Widely Spoken. There is a difference. I have seen a survey that where the same set of questions was asked in the mid 70's and 2004(I Think) That showed a substantial improvement in support for Irish over that time.
I will try to find the link tomorrow.

AMcCann

The whole Irish language is a joke.

Being all right at Irish and doing half my subjects at school through Irish ( which I now think was a waste of time). When my son came home from school and had Irish homework I would normally help him. The teacher could tell when I helped him as she would say that my answers were old Irish (not used anymore). Also my brother in law is form Donegal and his Irish is different that mine. When I was at school a Car was Gluaistan. Its now car. Who keeps changing it. So most of my Irish is useless now.

deise go deo

AMcCann wrote: »

The whole Irish language is a joke.

Being all right at Irish and doing half my subjects at school through Irish ( which I now think was a waste of time). When my son came home from school and had Irish homework I would normally help him. The teacher could tell when I helped him as she would say that my answers were old Irish (not used anymore). Also my brother in law is form Donegal and his Irish is different that mine. When I was at school a Car was Gluaistan. Its now car. Who keeps changing it. So most of my Irish is useless now.

Car Is still Gluaistán, Thats the word I would normally use.
Carr just another word for it,

Mobile phone can be called a Phón Poca or a Guthán

Its not uncommon for there to be more than one word to describe something.

Most of your Irish is now Useless? No, There are just a small few new words in the language. Everything you know is still valid.

AMcCann

Well why do people not know what I am saying when I try talking Irish. My son just cant stop laughing. So how am I to communicate with him. I just keep mixing him up so I dont bother. Also because I learned History in Irish I get it hard to join in with a history conversation in English.

deise go deo

This is the survey I mentioned earlier, Got the date wrong though, It is 1990, not 04.

UCC Survey

marienbad

Deise, I have to reply to you this way as I have not yet mastered the quote function (a bit of compulsion required possibly )

You agree the system has failed , but not compulsion ! and you ask me to advance a case against compulsion ! Come on Deise , it is impossible and unreasonable of you to separate the wheat from the chaff and say compulsion = bad ,curriculum = good. I dont have to prove anything. As a taxpayer I am entitled to demand an accounting for the effectiveness of our monies spent. Same way if the roads ar'nt gritted or The health service is crab. I know there is a problem I dont have to prove and provide the solution.

We will have to agree to dis-agree on the power of the langage lobbies vis a vis the Dept of education.

You say the language is more popular than ever !! What cack - if you will forgive me, that never occurred to me -I thought we were using popular and number of speakers interchangably ! I would not spent one red cent making a thing popular ( and lets not go off on a tangent that popularity may lead to etc..) We have spend near on a billion making our native language more popular but the number of actual speakers has declined ! This is the kind of goal post moving I am talking about .

It is time to move on from all these tired old men (and a few women) in Ireland in all areas , the language, the church,the state, everything they touch they have demeaned and destroyed with their vested intrests and back-door politics. Time to hand over to a new generation

deise go deo

AMcCann wrote: »

Well why do people not know what I am saying when I try talking Irish. My son just cant stop laughing. So how am I to communicate with him. I just keep mixing him up so I dont bother. Also because I learned History in Irish I get it hard to join in with a history conversation in English.

I dont know, maybe your not as good as you think, maybe they're not.

I do know that the language hasent changed significantly over the last 200 years.
The only real change was the change to the normal Script from the Old Gaelic Script, but that dident affect how Irish is spoken. Other than that there was the creation of Standard Irish, But again, that had little affect on how it is spoken. It is based on the Dialects and aside from a few grammatical rules is the same as the dialects. Most speakers still speak a Dialect anyway and they havent changed.

deise go deo

marienbad wrote: »

Deise, I have to reply to you this way as I have not yet mastered the quote function (a bit of compulsion required possibly )

You can learn how to quote here: Beginners Guide

Consider your self Compelled

You agree the system has failed , but not compulsion ! and you ask me to advance a case against compulsion ! Come on Deise , it is impossible and unreasonable of you to separate the wheat from the chaff and say compulsion = bad ,curriculum = good. I dont have to prove anything. As a taxpayer I am entitled to demand an accounting for the effectiveness of our monies spent. Same way if the roads ar'nt gritted or The health service is crab. I know there is a problem I dont have to prove and provide the solution.

We will have to agree to dis-agree on the power of the langage lobbies vis a vis the Dept of education.

Thats fair enough if you are arguing that there is a problem and think there needs to be change, I agree, There is a problem and change is needed, If we continue doing what is being done now, then the system will continue to fail. But if you want to argue against compulsion you should show that there is a reason to pick compulsion out as the problem.

As for the power of language lobbies, Dose it not stand to reason that if they had the power you think they do then their views would be implemented? If they really had an 'Iron Grip' Would their recommendations not have been put in place long ago?

You say the language is more popular than ever !! What cack - if you will forgive me, that never occurred to me -I thought we were using popular and number of speakers interchangably ! I would not spent one red cent making a thing popular ( and lets not go off on a tangent that popularity may lead to etc..) We have spend near on a billion making our native language more popular but the number of actual speakers has declined ! This is the kind of goal post moving I am talking about .

I am not moving any goal post, The language is more popular, But that is not the goal, The goal is more speakers, hence my use of the Word failure in relation to the System as it is now, However an increase in popularity is not a bad thing, and suggests to me that if we taught the language properly then more people would know and use it.

It is time to move on from all these tired old men (and a few women) in Ireland in all areas , the language, the church,the state, everything they touch they have demeaned and destroyed with their vested intrests and back-door politics. Time to hand over to a new generation

Indeed, That is why the growth of the Gaelscoil movement and the increase in the popularity of Cumann Gaelachs(Irish Societies) in Universitys is such an encouraging sign.:)

AMcCann

deise go deo.
Could be right. Then again I dont get much practice.

Dannyboy83

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

There were more Irish speakers then English speakers in Ireland 300 years ago not 700 years ago. And Irish has remained a native language of Ireland.

But how does that make it more Irish than Hiberno-English?
That was 300 years ago.
Most of the native population for 150 years have been unable to speak Irish, yet the overwhelming majority have spoken H/E.

H/E has been spoken on this island since the 12th Century, and has been the dominant language for nearly 2 centuries. Even the diaspora speak H/E.

Would you say that New Amsterdam is more American than New York City?
Do you think Modern German should be abandoned and the Germans should go back to speaking middle-German?
Would you approve of people in Australia being compelled to learn Aboriginal languages because it was historically the dominant language for a far longer time?

Doesn't this line of reasoning mean that modern-Irish, is in fact, not very Irish at all?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But how does that make it more Irish than Hiberno-English?
That was 300 years ago.
Most of the native population for 150 years have been unable to speak Irish, yet the overwhelming majority have spoken H/E.

H/E has been spoken on this island since the 12th Century, and has been the dominant language for nearly 2 centuries. Even the diaspora speak H/E.

Would you say that New Amsterdam is more American than New York City?
Do you think Modern German should be abandoned and the Germans should go back to speaking middle-German?


Doesn't this line of reasoning mean that modern-Irish, is in fact, not very Irish at all?

Irish is a language native to this country, English is not, Hiberno English is nothing more than English that has been influenced by the Irish language, That dosent mean it is native to this Country,
What makes Irish 'Irish' is that it is from this Country, It is shaped by this country, Its expressions are of this Country,
And Most importantly, it is supported by the majority of people in this Country.

Would you approve of people in Australia being compelled to learn Aboriginal languages because it was historically the dominant language for a far longer time?

I would approve of Aboriginal people learning Aboriginal Languages, Just like Irish people learning the Irish language.;)

DJP

deise go deo,

Why did you start a thread with the title "The status of Irish". Irish speakers like talking Irish or most of them do and a lot of other people just like hearing Irish and some people want to learn more Irish but nobody wants to talk about the status of it. I think you were naieve in starting this thread. It is too broad and for the first time ever debating on online forums in seven or eight years I see there are people in favour of making it optional for the Junior Cert and primary school. Your thread title was so broad that you brought them out.

Politics.ie is a better site then this one for politics. There are too many kids on this site.

RandomName2

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

deise go deo,

Why did you start a thread with the title "The status of Irish". Irish speakers like talking Irish or most of them do and a lot of other people just like hearing Irish and some people want to learn more Irish but nobody wants to talk about the status of it. I think you were naieve in starting this thread. It is too broad and for the first time ever debating on online forums in seven or eight years I see there are people in favour of making it optional for the Junior Cert and primary school. Your thread title was so broad that you brought them out.

Politics.ie is a better site then this one for politics. There are too many kids on this site.

You could start by reading the OP

deise go deo wrote: »

I would like to see what change people think should be made to the teaching of the Irish Language.

[...]

So, what do you think, should Irish be made optional?

Personally I believe the proposal for reform of Irish language education put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best and most successful way forward.

Which, as I already stated, has been conclusively answered.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish is a language native to this country, English is not. Hiberno English is nothing more than English that has been influenced by the Irish language, that doesn't mean it is native to this country.
What makes Irish 'Irish' is that it is from this country, it is shaped by this country, and its expressions are of this country.
And, most importantly, it is supported by the majority of people in this country.




I would approve of Aboriginal people learning Aboriginal Languages, Just like Irish people learning the Irish language.;)

Back to the cornerstone of the debate, I see.

Nationalism is the key concept concerning the learning of Irish.

It is a notoriously difficult idea to shift (that Irish is an intrinsic aspect of the Irish identity) because it is partially true.

One could say that Old Norse was an intrinsic aspect of English identity, so why shouldn't it be compulsory in England?
The analogy would not work in Gaeilge-nationalists' eyes because
1) Analogies concerning Sasana are suspect to begin with.
2) Old Norse was alien to Britain
3) Nobody speaks Old Norse today

Well: a few things.
How culturally isolated is the Irish language and unmolested by other cultures?
How much extant culture is originally present in the Irish language?
How many Irish people use Irish as a primary language?
How many people would speak Irish if not for state aid or compulsion?
What exactly are the 'Irish' in this context?

When talking about the Aboriginal peoples, their identity is quite obviously different from the 19th century penal settlers (i.e. they are black). This easy identifier has not been present in Ireland - and what a mess it has been trying to forge one!

If one says that the only true Irish were those descended exclusively from the first wave of Celtic tribes, and speak whatever dialect they spoke (I cannot say Irish as there is no record of what they spoke... moreover, on the same note there is no useful recording of the Irish language until c.16th century anyway) one cannot say that there is any true Irishman today.

Without being pedantic about all the various waves of settles (which was pretty much the same as England, apart from the absence of Romans), the bottom line of most Gaeilge-nationalists is (as a compromise) is that
"Speaking Irish does not exclusively makes you Irish, but it helps."
Which I would respond to with:
"Nonsense. Knowing and understanding Irish is the same as knowing and understanding Irish history. There is no need to engage with Irish history for it to be part of your culture. Am I more Irish if I sell my daughter for 100 cattle and kill the dastardly lord with my broadsword if he reneges on the deal?"

No, engaging in speaking Gaeilge, or reenacting history should be a matter of personal choice, although the latter might make you end up in prison for kidnap, pillage and murder

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

One could say that Old Norse was an intrinsic aspect of English identity, so why shouldn't it be compulsory in England?
The analogy would not work in Gaeilge-nationalists' eyes because
1) Analogies concerning Sasana are suspect to begin with.
2) Old Norse was alien to Britain
3) Nobody speaks Old Norse today

Well: a few things.
How culturally isolated is the Irish language and unmolested by other cultures?
How much extant culture is originally present in the Irish language?
How many Irish people use Irish as a primary language?
How many people would speak Irish if not for state aid or compulsion?
What exactly are the 'Irish' in this context?

One could say it, but they would be wrong, English dident develop from old Norse, That was a Scandinavian language, While the Vikings did invade Britain and establish the Dane Law, And the Danish Language they spoke did influence English,(And Irish Here) They still remained separate languages, In very much the Same way that English and Irish have remained separate language, despite influencing each other.

The Language I assume you are thinking of Is old English(Beowulf Good Luck Reading it.:p)
The reason that is not tought in Britain is the same reason we dont teach people old Irish here, We teach their modern day equivalent.

If one says that the only true Irish were those descended exclusively from the first wave of Celtic tribes, and speak whatever dialect they spoke (I cannot say Irish as there is no record of what they spoke... moreover, on the same note there is no useful recording of the Irish language until c.16th century anyway) one cannot say that there is any true Irishman today.

This is a strawman argument, I have never suggested such a thing, Please don't misrepresent the pro Irish argument like that, it dose no one any favors.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish is a language native to this country, English is not, Hiberno English is nothing more than English that has been influenced by the Irish language, That dosent mean it is native to this Country,
What makes Irish 'Irish' is that it is from this Country, It is shaped by this country, Its expressions are of this Country,
And Most importantly, it is supported by the majority of people in this Country.

This is the insular attitude to the Irish language that has turned so many Irish people off the language. It is an attitude to Irishness prevalent in so many inwardly-focussed organisations from the GAA to Conradh na Gaeilge taking in Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, Fianna Fail and the Irish dancing organisations. They believe that anything other than the one true way is an abomination and traitourous to our "traditions". Irishness becomes the opposite of fun.

I have a vision of Irish and Irishness. Irish should no longer be compulsory in second-level schools. Instead it should be replaced by two subjects - Irish culture (compulsory) and a pure language subject (optional).

The Irish culture module would incorporate a wide range of components, including some from the existing CPSE course.
- Basic Irish, enough for everyday conversation
- Introduction to Irish literature from Peig to The Commitments and including everything in between such as Wilde, Yeats, Behan etc.
- Introduction to Irish Art - The Yeats name would feature again!
- Introduction to Irish music. From the sean-nos singers of CCE to U2, but including aspects of Irish music frequently derided such as the showbands and wee Daniel and Dana. Thin Lizzy, U2, The Dubliners, ceili bands, Sharon Shannon, the Planxty family and offshoots, Makem and Clancy, the roots of the Furey brothers, Something Happens, the Rubber Bandits, Cheoltoiri Cualainn, O'Carolan, wow I have left out loads, when you start listing them out.....
- The diaspora and the immigrants
- Irish film and TV
- Father Ted and Scrap Saturday and other Irish comedy
- History of Irish sporting achivement from athletics and GAA to soccer and rugby

All of the above would give students a reason to be proud to be Irish, something that the study of a language on its deathbed does not. The number of people resentful of Irishness because of the way Irish was taught is a disgrace to the Irish language movement of the last 50 years.

The second module, on the Irish language, would be optional and as well as the oral and written aspects common to the current syllabus would deal with the linguistic aspects such as the roots and history of the language.

By splitting like that, broadening the compulsory aspect of Irish to include everything that goes into the meaning of being Irish and making the study of the pure language optional, you create the space for the love of Irish and Irishness to grow.

Unfortunately, given the vice-like grip of traditionalists in the DOES and the teaching profession, such a change is unlikely to occur.

DJP

Godge wrote: »

Unfortunately, given the vice-like grip of traditionalists in the DOES and the teaching profession, such a change is unlikely to occur.

Students don't have the option of what subjects they study for the Junior Cert by and large so if you gave the option to study Irish as the only option then yes such a change will never occur.

Iwasfrozen

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Students don't have the option of what subjects they study for the Junior Cert by and large so if you gave the option to study Irish as the only option then yes such a change will never occur.

Yeah they do.

DJP

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah they do.

Like Art or Technical drawing? Choice of foreign languages (if they have a choice of more then one)?

Students don't have the option when it comes to most subjects for the Junior Cert. They have to do English, Maths, History, Geography, a foreign language, Business and Irish. The day will never arrive when students can choose to study Irish or not for the Junior and not with the rest of them. Idly speculate all you want.

Godge

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Like Art or Technical drawing? Choice of foreign languages (if they have a choice of more then one)?

Students don't have the option when it comes to most subjects for the Junior Cert. They have to do English, Maths, History, Geography, a foreign language, Business and Irish. The day will never arrive when students can choose to study Irish or not for the Junior and not with the rest of them. Idly speculate all you want.

Don't understand the second last sentence, particularly the bit in bold.

BTW, business and a foreign language are not compulsory for the Junior Cert, they are advisable if you want to keep your career options open.

Finally, look at the proposals floating around education and academic circles in relation to the reform of the Junior Cert. Plenty of room in them for the suggestions I have made.

Enkidu

Just for historical accuracy.

RandomName2 wrote: »

I cannot say Irish as there is no record of what they spoke... moreover, on the same note there is no useful recording of the Irish language until c.16th century anyway one cannot say that there is any true Irishman today.

They spoke a form of Gaulish. There are useful recordings of Irish from the 6th century onwards. The earliest recordings (consisting of simple sentences in the genitive) are from the 2nd century.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

This is the insular attitude to the Irish language that has turned so many Irish people off the language.

I was responding to a post claiming that the Irish language wasent 'Irish'
Sorry if it seams 'Insular' to you, but that is my opinion. I would like to see how you would have responded to the claim that Irish is not 'Irish'

It is an attitude to Irishness prevalent in so many inwardly-focussed organisations from the GAA to Conradh na Gaeilge taking in Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, Fianna Fail and the Irish dancing organisations. They believe that anything other than the one true way is an abomination and traitourous to our "traditions". Irishness becomes the opposite of fun.

If you are going to be including FF in the list you may as well go ahead and include the rest of the political parties too, they all support the Irish.

As for your assertation that the GAA, Comhaltas etc, squeeze the fun out of the activity they are involved in, Have you ever gone to an All Ireland Final? Were you at Oireachtas na Gaeilge? Did you ever take part in events held by Comhaltas or CLRG?
If you had then you would see the nonsense of your statements.

I have a vision of Irish and Irishness. Irish should no longer be compulsory in second-level schools. Instead it should be replaced by two subjects - Irish culture (compulsory) and a pure language subject (optional).

So you replace Irish, With Irish Culture as a compulsory subject? Despite the fact that the majority of people are clearly in favor of Irish remaining Compulsory to JC level, and the majority again want the same or greater emphasis on the Irish language in the education system.

The Irish culture module would incorporate a wide range of components, including some from the existing CPSE course.
- Basic Irish, enough for everyday conversation
- Introduction to Irish literature from Peig to The Commitments and including everything in between such as Wilde, Yeats, Behan etc.
- Introduction to Irish Art - The Yeats name would feature again!
- Introduction to Irish music. From the sean-nos singers of CCE to U2, but including aspects of Irish music frequently derided such as the showbands and wee Daniel and Dana. Thin Lizzy, U2, The Dubliners, ceili bands, Sharon Shannon, the Planxty family and offshoots, Makem and Clancy, the roots of the Furey brothers, Something Happens, the Rubber Bandits, Cheoltoiri Cualainn, O'Carolan, wow I have left out loads, when you start listing them out.....
- The diaspora and the immigrants
- Irish film and TV
- Father Ted and Scrap Saturday and other Irish comedy
- History of Irish sporting achivement from athletics and GAA to soccer and rugby

All of the above would give students a reason to be proud to be Irish, something that the study of a language on its deathbed does not. The number of people resentful of Irishness because of the way Irish was taught is a disgrace to the Irish language movement of the last 50 years.

The second module, on the Irish language, would be optional and as well as the oral and written aspects common to the current syllabus would deal with the linguistic aspects such as the roots and history of the language.

By splitting like that, broadening the compulsory aspect of Irish to include everything that goes into the meaning of being Irish and making the study of the pure language optional, you create the space for the love of Irish and Irishness to grow.

Unfortunately, given the vice-like grip of traditionalists in the DOES and the teaching profession, such a change is unlikely to occur.

Look, I can see where you are coming from, but you have to be realistic,
You cant teach everything, People want Irish to be taught, thats why it should be, as for the rest, Some has undoubted merit and I would have no problem with it being included, But you cant teach everything, so teach what is worth teaching, Take the rubber bandits for example, What would be the point of teaching that? Kids will already know more about it than the teachers anyway, It dosent need to be taught.

DJP

Godge wrote: »

Don't understand the second last sentence, particularly the bit in bold.

BTW, business and a foreign language are not compulsory for the Junior Cert, they are advisable if you want to keep your career options open.

Finally, look at the proposals floating around education and academic circles in relation to the reform of the Junior Cert. Plenty of room in them for the suggestions I have made.

Business and foreign languages maybe not made required by the DOE but they are required in all schools, at least my generation when we were in school ten years ago had no choice but to do them and I am fairly sure that is the case now.

My point, which you highlighted in bold, is that the day will never come when Irish is made optional for the Junior Cert but most subjects aren't. I can't see the day coming when students will have a choice by and large on what subjects they study for the Junior.

Iwasfrozen

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Like Art or Technical drawing? Choice of foreign languages (if they have a choice of more then one)?

Students don't have the option when it comes to most subjects for the Junior Cert. They have to do English, Maths, History, Geography, a foreign language, Business and Irish. The day will never arrive when students can choose to study Irish or not for the Junior and not with the rest of them. Idly speculate all you want.

What are you talking about? English, Irish and Maths are the only real* mandatory exam subjects in the Junior Cert.

*CSPE isn't a real subject.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What are you talking about? English, Irish and Maths are the only real* mandatory exam subjects in the Junior Cert.

*CSPE isn't a real subject.

What? Not in my school anyway, the only choice I had fro JC was metalwork or woodwork.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

What? Not in my school anyway, the only choice I had fro JC was metalwork or woodwork.

Those are restrictions imposed by the school due to lack of resources, they aren't a part of the course and each school offers a different combination of choosable* subjects.

*Is choosable even a word?

Anyway I was in the same boat as you with woodwork or metalwork though I could have choosen home ec either. But as you and I know no self-respecting 12 year old boy would ever choose it.

Lord TSC

*CSPE isn't a real subject.

As a CSPE teacher, I resent that <_<