The Status Of Irish.

DJP

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Historically Fine Gael and Labour have not been as active as Fianna Fáil in promoting Irish. Untill about a year ago it has been official Fine Gael policy to introduce optional Irish after the Junior cert and even now we have high ranking Fine Gael politicians like Brian Hayes saying he would like to see it optional.

And let's not forget the Fine Gael gaelteacht spokesman who can't speak Irish. -_-

Yes I am. They brought in TnaG remember and they got rid of compulsory Irish for the civil service.

That was in the past though. If their leaders weren't Irish speakers, lovers of the language, genuinely interested in promoting it, and more competent than FF I would agree with you. But that isn't how it is. And both parties are in favour of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert as part of a more radical reform in promoting it. You must not have read my previous posts on the matter.

Iwasfrozen

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Yes I am. They brought in TnaG remember and they got rid of compulsory Irish for the civil service.

That was in the past though. If their leaders weren't Irish speakers, lovers of the language, genuinely interested in promoting it, and more competent than FF I would agree with you. But that isn't how it is. And both parties are in favour of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert as part of a more radical reform in promoting it. You must not have read my previous posts on the matter.

Do you have a link to a summary of this twenty year strategy? I was looking around on the web but couldn't find anything.

nuac

Darren J Prior - you stated that FG in government would be more competent in promoting Irish.

I wonder.

E.g. Deputy Feighan FG spokesman on Irish suggested making Clare Island Co Mayo Irish speaking. While that would be of interest, he relied on support for the proposal that it was near the Gaeltachtaí of Connemara and Mayo.

Oh dear or faraoir faraoir. The Connemara Gaeltacht is in south commemara many miles away even as the crow flies, and by sea involving a long voyage around Slyne Head.

The Mayo Gaeltachtaí also a long way away. No Irish i s now spoken in the Achill / Curraune Gaeltacht ( which is close to Clare Island ) . The Tuar Mhic éadaigh and Carratigue Gaeltachtai are a long long away from Clare Island.

I do not fault the man for not having Irish - he is learning it - but he does not seem to have fully researched that particular proposal regarding support from other Gaeltachtaí


regarding the larger issues on this thread, I believe that we are never going to become bi-lingual, and that use of Irish in Gaeltacht areas is in decline.

Irish courses should be available but not compulsory after Junior Cert.

I know there are great hopes for the Gaelscoil movement but many kids are being sent there so that they won't have to associate with travellers or others with whom the parents would not have much in common.



I hope there will always be the small number of people who love and use the language, but I am afraid the programme of compulsion since founding of the state has failed.

We should investigate why Welsh is still strong, and seek to apply same methods here.

cyclopath2001

nice_guy80 wrote: »

form a proper body whose main function is to actually grow the Irish language countrywide and not just preserving tiny communities

Why?

nuac wrote:

We should investigate why Welsh is still strong, and seek to apply same methods here.

Are there not more important things we should be doing?

When the constitution recognised the special position of the Catholic Church, the government did not make people become Catholic, so why should recognising Irish mean that people are forced to speak it?

I've no problem with the idea of Irish language enthusiasts promoting their chosen language at their own expense. Indeed, the absence of easy money from the mostly English-speaking taxpayer, might focus their minds on the most effective way to further their goals.

femur61

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Get rid of all current agencies tasked with doing stuff for the Irish language
Udaras na Gaeltachta
Foras na Gaeigle
An Gum
they are all wasting so much of the taxpayers money

form a proper body whose main function is to actually grow the Irish language countrywide and not just preserving tiny communities
this can be done through:

a proper Irish radio station with young presenters
a digital tv station through Irish for kids - just invest in lots of dubbed cartoons and other programmes eg seasame street. funded through the Irish promotion body. no more English ads.
having charity shops through Irish - where the proceeds are pumped back into language promotion locally. look how much money those other 'charity' shops make
an online video site - gaeilgetube.com or something where Irish content only can uploaded - would be great for schools drama groups, music, sports etc
running cafés and restaurants where service is availble through Irish. provide grants to provide language course for staff
using existing organisations to use more Irish and put things on through Irish - eg GAA, other sports.
using Local Radio stations - look at iradio - more Irish heard on that by young people than on RnaG.
develop resources for teaching Irish - do you know the complete lack of decent resources out there for teaching Irish in primary schools??? Make it all ICT, interactive based and downloadable for free. Most schools have smartboards now
The state provides NOTHING to schools to devlop Irish

I've no problem with any of these suggestions if they are supported fiancially by some other group and not paid for with tax payers money.

cyclopath2001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you have a link to a summary of this twenty year strategy? I was looking around on the web but couldn't find anything.

The strategy can be found here.

The most surreal (or maybe frightening) bit can be found on page 22:

The aim of State supports in the promotion of language transmission in the family will therefore be to:
....
• raising awareness among parents, prospective parents .... of the advantages of bilingualism;

Page 11 includes obligatory Irish lessons :

The curriculum will foster oral and written competence in Irish among students and an understanding of its value to us as a people.

Quite why many hours of school time over 14 years are needed to accomplish this is not explained.

Draconian measures include a quota for Irish-speaking teachers and the full enforcement of the Official Languages Act. The OLA commissioner will be able to designate people's jobs as requiring both Irish and English and forcing them to learn Irish or be removed (page 23).

Gaeltacht areas that cannot meet the standard of Irish set by language's administrators will lose their subsidies:

Communities that cannot comply with the criteria in the new legislation will be afforded a period of two years to develop plans to ensure that they maintain their status as Gaeltacht communities. Communities who fail to develop ....Plans will be reviewed every seven years and areas that do not achieve the linguistic criteria for the Gaeltacht set down in the new Act will cease to have Gaeltacht status. New areas may also be included in the Gaeltacht if they meet the linguistic criteria laid down in the new Act.

No costing are given for the many new measures and no basis is given for how the target figure of 250,000 Irish-speakers was calculated.

Meanwhile in the Irish Examiner:

CAMPAIGNERS have called for a new target date to be set to end long-term homelessness, after the Government failed to deliver on its aim of eradicating the problem by end of 2010

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The strategy can be found here.

The most surreal (or maybe frightening) bit can be found on page 22:

What is surreal or frightening about that? Bi-lingualism is benifical, Would you have this hidden from parents?

Page 11 includes obligatory Irish lessons :Quite why many hours of school time over 14 years are needed to accomplish this is not explained.

Well as is stated on page 1,

the Government’s aim is
to ensure that as many citizens as possible are
bilingual in both Irish and English.

Have you a better idea of how this would be achieved? And lets try to stay in reality, This aim is Recognised by all mainstream political parties after all.

Draconian measures include a quota for Irish-speaking teachers and the full enforcement of the Official Languages Act. The OLA commissioner will be able to designate people's jobs as requiring both Irish and English and forcing them to learn Irish or be removed (page 23).

Draconian? How exactly? I think this is a foolish atempt to use unnessary emotive language to try to paint these measures in a poor light, But again, the Aim is to increase the Use of the Irish language, and these proposals are just a logical follow on from that point.

Gaeltacht areas that cannot meet the standard of Irish set by language's administrators will lose their subsidies:

Yes, Gaelthachts that are no longer gaelthachts will lose their status, whats wrong with that, there is no point lieing to yourself and calling an area a gaelthacht when it isent.

No costing are given for the many new measures and no basis is given for how the target figure of 250,000 Irish-speakers was calculated.

Indeed, I think this is one of the main faults of the strategy, Its too ambitious, It aims to triple the number of fluent Irish speakers from 83,000 to 250,000 in 20 years, This is unrealistic in my opinion.
That would mean a 5.7% increase year on year or an average of 8250 per year over 20 years.
A More realistic Increase would be just 2% or around an average of 2000 per year over the 20 years, This could be achieved as there are currently about (Roughly) 1400 students leaving Second Level Gaelscoil education Who are fluent in Irish every year (outside of the Gaelthacht's.)
This would result in 125,000 Irish speakers in 20 years, An Increase of 45,000.(Rather than 165,000 as is aimed for in the strategy) This would (and Hopefully will) be a very positive step forward.

However that said, at least the promotion of the Irish language is being taken seriously now.

deise go deo

Just to further the point, The demand for Gaelscoileanna is still well ahead of supply, In most existing Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaiste there is a waiting list of a few years for places.

Also there is demand for new Gaelscoileanna:

There are committees working in the following areas at present:


Primary Level

• Gaelscoil Ros Mhic Thriúin, New Ross, Co. Wexford
• Gaelscoil na Feoire, Kilkenny
• Gaelscoil Oiriall, Dunleer, Co. Louth
• Gaelscoil an Chuilinn, Tyrrellstown, Dublin 15
• Gaelscoil Chillín Chéir, Virginia, Co. Cavan
• Gaelscoil Oisín, Crumlin, Dublin 12

There is a local interest in founding primary schools in the following areas, although founding committees haven’t been established there as yet.

• Lusk, Co. Dublin
• Navan, Co. Meath
• Ongar, Dublin 15
• Clara, Co. Offaly
• Birr, Co. Offaly
• Marino/Fairview/Clontarf, Dublin 3

Also The founding committee for Gaelscoil Ráth Tó (Ratoath, Co. Meath) have made the decision to open the school without the official sanction of the Department of Education and Skills. The school is to open in Ratoath Community Centre on August 30th 2010

Post-primary Level

• Gaelcholáiste Dheisceart Átha Cliath, Dundrum, Dublin
• Gaelcholáiste Shligigh, Co. Sligo
• Gaelcholáiste Charraig Uí Leighin, Carraigaline, Co. Cork
• Gaelcholáiste na hIarmhí, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
• Gaelcholáiste Chora Droma Rúisc, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co. Leitrim
• Coláiste Ghlór na Mara, Balbriggan, Co. Dublin
• Gaelcholáiste Chill Dara Thuaidh, Maynooth, Co. Kildare
• Gaelcholáiste Droichead Átha, Drogheda, Co. Louth

There is local interest in founding a post-primary school in Blessington, Co. Wicklow. A founding committee hasn’t been established there as yet but the Development Officer is in contact with a representative in the area.

Gaelscoileanna Teo

Currently there are 139 Primary and 36 secondary Gaelscoileanna in The Republic.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

What is surreal or frightening about that? Bi-lingualism is benifical, Would you have this hidden from parents?

While lecturing young people about to have sex, will they be extolling the virtues of languages other than Irish?

deise go deo wrote: »

Have you a better idea of how this would be achieved? And lets try to stay in reality, This aim is Recognised by all mainstream political parties after all.

14 years education seems grossly excessive. Most adults can gain competency in a foreign language, part-time, in night schools, in months.

deise go deo wrote: »

But again, the Aim is to increase the Use of the Irish language, and these proposals are just a logical follow on from that point.

True, in order to force people to speak Irish when they would otherwise choose not to, it is logical to use coercive measures. The voters probably don't realise that this is what is meant by 'support for Irish'.

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, Gaelthachts that are no longer gaelthachts will lose their status, whats wrong with that, there is no point lieing to yourself and calling an area a gaelthacht when it isent.

The irony is that the harshest measures are reserved for native speakers.

deise go deo wrote: »

Indeed, I think this is one of the main faults of the strategy, Its too ambitious,

The main fault is that it is not connected to reality.

deise go deo wrote: »

However that said, at least the promotion of the Irish language is being taken seriously now.

To be serious, there must be a plan and not just a 'strategy'.

Lord TSC

Just to further the point, The demand for Gaelscoileanna is still well ahead of supply, In most existing Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaiste there is a waiting list of a few years for places.

It strikes me the supply and demand problem exists with primary schools in general at the moment, not just with the GS ones. I know all the primary schools within my area, both the English and the Irish speaking ones, have massive waiting lists to the extent that a lot of parents are signing up their kids on birth and most schools have had to turn away people based on parish locations. There's been a boom for the last decade accross the board, not just in the GS sector.

marienbad

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

to be serious, there must be a plan and not just a 'strategy'


On the button . the only merit to this whole 'strategy' is to keep the Irish language lobby happy and by so doing remove it as a political issue. Never mind that millions more will be wasted to no end . Just more of the same with figures like 250'000 plucked out of the sky.

And does no one see the the inherent contradictions in all of this , where now even though we had a head start of 50 years and millions spent we are going to take pointers from the Welsh and Basques. Why so , one may ask , possibly because we were too stubborn too accept that in all those years beating and cramming Irish into generation after generation we may not have had it right after all.

This will change nothing

DJP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Are there not more important things we should be doing?

This thread is about the Irish language.

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

This thread is about the Irish language.

Or more precisely, it's about Irish language enforcement measures.

DJP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or more precisely, it's about Irish language enforcement measures.

How dramatic of you! :rolleyes:

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What they say is The common tongue" is targetting dominance. If multilingualism was the goal they would have said "...a common tongue in Ireland. CnaG's master plan is quite clear.

I'll have to politely disagree with you on this one. They aim to save the language and make it common amongst Irish people again. This is not language fascism! Sorry pal.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'll have to politely disagree with you on this one. They aim to save the language and make it common amongst Irish people again. This is not language fascism! Sorry pal.

You can change the labelling, but your use of the word 'make' betrays the intention.

And, why do you omit that CnaG want to make it The common language.

I can think of nothing more dramatic than forcibly changing the common language of a whole country.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You can change the labelling, but your use of the word 'make' betrays the intention.

And, why do you omit that CnaG want to make it The common language.

I can think of nothing more dramatic than forcibly changing the common language of a whole country.

Talk about getting your knickers in a twist over the word 'The':rolleyes:


Anyway, on the topic of this thread, I thought this might be relevant,

There is a petition against FG's policy on Irish.

http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html

Over 12000 signatures so far, and growing.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Talk about getting your knickers in a twist over the word 'The':rolleyes:

We're discussing language...it's all about words and what they mean.

deise go deo wrote: »

Over 12000 signatures so far, and growing.

Let us know when you get 1 million and they're all verifiable.

Dannyboy83

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Let us know when you get 1 million and they're all verifiable.

I reckon you could verify half the existing 12,000 are probably Irish teachers;)

Senators don't vote for abolition of the Senate:D

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I reckon you could verify half the existing 12,000 are probably Irish teachers;)

Senators don't vote for abolition of the Senate:D

Right, so you think every Irish teacher in the country has been informed of and supports a petition thats only a week or two old

marienbad

deise go deo wrote: »

Right, so you think every Irish teacher in the country has been informed of and supports a petition thats only a week or two old

Deise Snap National elections have been called , voted, government installed within 2 weeks. I am sure it is not beyong the wit of man to organise a petition and 12000 signatures within the same time frame:)

I see the questions used are again the same old ''motherhood and apple pie'' type that can again be manipulated any which way.

cyclopath2001

marienbad wrote: »

I see the questions used are again the same old ''motherhood and apple pie'' type that can again be manipulated any which way.

Some of the comments on the 'petition' are hysterical. You'd think that FG intended to bring in Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill and Oliver Cromwell, they way the petitioners are carrying on.

More tellingly is the way the language enthusiasts are putting Irish at the top of the national agenda, ahead of the economy, health and poverty. They must be comfortable, healthy, well-paid people.

marienbad

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some of the comments on the 'petition' are hysterical. You'd think that FG intended to bring in Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill and Oliver Cromwell, they way the petitioners are carrying on.

More tellingly is the way the language enthusiasts are putting Irish at the top of the national agenda, ahead of the economy, health and poverty. They must be comfortable, healthy, well-paid people.

Cyclo, where can you see the comments on the petitions ??

cyclopath2001

marienbad wrote: »

Cyclo, where can you see the comments on the petitions ??

'View current signatures' and then click on the numbers.

'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' .... 'YOU MUST SEE THIS YOUR EYES WILL BE OPENED [url]h ttp: //tinyurl.com/[deleted]....Please[/url] don't take away our language, not enough people know how to speak it as it is! Keep it compulsory!!....its scandalous,trying to delete part of our heritage and culture,he should be stoned!....Lets face it this wont do anything they never listen to us , but we should be prepared to return ,if they do not hed our warning. We will return and take the power back ...i believe irish should be kept as a compulsary subject as its removal would lesson its importance and usage....The Irish language is the language of Ireland and the Irish people. English is the language of a foreign empire that nearly destroyed Ireland and the Irish people. Dump English in Ireland, if need be, not Irish.

The confused petitioners seem think that making Irish optional at school is the tantamount to banning it. Some of the posts give an insight into the mentality of the more extreme Irish-speakers.

marienbad

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

'View current signatures' and then click on the numbers.



The confused petitioners seem think that making Irish optional at school is the tantamount to banning it. Some of the posts give an insight into the mentality of the more extreme Irish-speakers.

Dispiriting reading some of those comments, west brit, traitors, quisling, vichy etc etc and all this when,as you say , other massive challenges facing the country.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

Talk about getting your knickers in a twist over the word 'The':rolleyes:


Anyway, on the topic of this thread, I thought this might be relevant,

There is a petition against FG's policy on Irish.

http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html

Over 12000 signatures so far, and growing.

So Fine Gael are still going ahead with their plan to make Irish an optional subject? This is excellent news. Finally some real choice on the matter. I'm going to vote for them just for this!

cyclopath2001

marienbad wrote: »

Dispiriting reading some of those comments, west brit, traitors, quisling, vichy etc etc and all this when,as you say , other massive challenges facing the country.

Some of the remarks are so off-the-wall as to be surely p1ss-takes. I'd doubt those particular signatories are genuinely interested in Irish.

Krusader

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some of the remarks are so off-the-wall as to be surely p1ss-takes. I'd doubt those particular signatories are genuinely interested in Irish.

Here's one that's spot on

What kind of country voluntarily participates in and suggests the self destruction of its own cultural identity? We should all be proud of our heritage and language and be grateful for its existence and resist its demise. Ní Neart go cur le Chéile.

Krusader

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So Fine Gael are still going ahead with their plan to make Irish an optional subject? This is excellent news. Finally some real choice on the matter. I'm going to vote for them just for this!

Not a hope that Fine Gael will make it optional, they're probably looking for votes from the easily lead

MysticalRain

Crosáidí wrote: »

Here's one that's spot on

Jesus, talk about over reacting. The funny thing is many people here actually believe that a policy of *not* forcing the language down people's throats might actually be better for the language in the long run. Perhaps those militant partisans should be asking themselves why their misguided attempts at promoting the language haven't worked out so well over the last 80 years.