When choosing a dog why....?

ISDW

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Don't know. I'm not paying €1000 for a pup and then going to surrender it. I am positive that the majority of dogs in pounds are mongrels.

Sorry, going to disagree with you as well. I have had over 100 dogs come through my doors in the last 2 years, and the majority of them were pure breed siberian huskies or alaskan malamutes, and quite a few of them with IKC papers. Someone did indeed pay €1000 for those dogs and then dump, lose or surrender them.

Any of the pedigrees that came in with microchips were not traced back to responsible breeders btw, as in my opinion responsible breeders take back any unwanted dogs they have bred.

I've turned people down for some of my dogs, and I'll continue to do so if I don't think that they are the right home for the dog. The last thing I want is a dog thats already been through the mill, being returned again and again and again. I do rehome to people that work, but I won't rehome an adult sibe or mal to a home with a cat (unless we know that dog has lived with a cat previously). I had one family a couple of weeks ago that said they'd get rid of the cat:rolleyes: Why would I want to rehome one pet to make another homeless? So different rescues have different criteria, hopefully they are to ensure the animal does end up in its forever home.

Bullseye1

Well the couple of shelters I've been too tell a different story. Are you saying that people who surrender their dogs to you tell you what they paid for the dog? What is the main reason for surrendering them? Financial or just not what they expected?

Are these from responsible breeders or puppy farms?

lrushe

Angelmangle wrote: »

I really don't understand how this statement is condescending and judgmental. In my opinion it is a simple statement of fact. There are thousands upon thousands of dogs who are put to sleep in this country and to my mind it is immoral and unethical to pay for a dog when you can save a life instead - to me it is that black and white.

But how would me not buying my dogs stop said dogs from being put to sleep???
Rescues won't rehome to me for reasons I've already mentioned so the only difference there would be if I didn't buy my dogs would be that I wouldn't have a dog, there would be no extra dogs rescued.
As I've said here more than once I would love to rehome an ex-racing greyhound, I've had them before and love the breed and hopefully in years to come when I am home more that will be option for me but for now it's not. If I did adopt I would rather go to a rescue where the dog would be s/neutered, chipped, vacc'd etc. possibly know their health and temperament history and the dog would be matched to me etc. and that is why I alway recommend rescues when a poster post about a dog.
I feel I do my part by only going to reputable breeders who only breed every other year to add something to their breed, most of these pups are booked before they are even born. These breeder rarely make a penny doing this and it's purely for the love of their breed. Also the breeders of my 3 dogs will take back my dogs if for some reason I could no longer keep them, my dogs and the dogs produced by my dogs' breeders will never (with their knowledge) end up in shelters.
I've had dogs for over 25 years but only ever had 4 pedigree dogs (not including family dogs when I was younger) that I have either paid for or have been presents, all of my other dogs have been waifs and strays I've picked up along the way. I've no problem adopting a dog however to judge me because I have bought some of my dogs I definately do think is wrong, how easy it is for some who have the option of adopting to sit on their high horse and try to guilty those who don't, it might do you better to try have a look at the other side of the fence and realise it is not that black and white as you might think.

kiersm

Boomerang I dont mean to be mean bout rescue centres i think they do an amazing job and the fact that ye do soo much for the anmals, I have to say I couldn't do it. I would be no good to nurse a dog back to health. I can barely manage to nurse my own dog when he's ill.

lrushe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Well the couple of shelters I've been too tell a different story. Are you saying that people who surrender their dogs to you tell you what they paid for the dog? What is the main reason for surrendering them? Financial or just not what they expected?

Are these from responsible breeders or puppy farms?

I would agree with ISDW, there are people who will pay big money for dogs, especially when times were good and dropping €1000 on a dog wouldn't bother certain people because it added to their big house, expensive car, lavish lifestyle persona only to discover the dog was more work than they were expecting or sometimes just because it grew out of that cute puppy phase. Dogs are seen as so throw away, even the money someone has paid for it doesn't be enough of a reason to keep the dog, it's seen as more trouble than it's worth.
No doubt these dogs don't come from reputable breeders, it is more likely puppy farms or byb's who bred for money or because they had a cute dog and they wanted to breed it but didn't care 5 years down the line where those pups would end up.

Whispered

I really don't think anyone is trying to make people feel bad, I do think it's a genuine lack of understanding as to why someone would not rescue. I don't think "oh you're a bad person for not going down the rescue route!" but I do wonder why someone would buy rather than rescue. Now I know there are reasons, but because my main priority would be to get a rescue animal it can be difficult for me to understand. I'm sure it's the same where I say that I didn't care what breed I got, some people don't understand that because temperment and exercise requirements are (very rightly) a huge priority for them. Do you know what I mean? It's all about priorities and obviously peoples priorities differ.

BengaLover wrote: »

And then they charge you 30 euro for the privelege!:D

The rescues? If you do mean the rescues, they generally charge more, haha. But there are very good reasons for that.

ISDW wrote: »

I had one family a couple of weeks ago that said they'd get rid of the cat

The poor cat. That is very sad.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Are these from responsible breeders or puppy farms?

I wouldn't imagine they are from responsible breeders, a responsible breeder (like a good rescue) will always take back their pups.

boomerang

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Well the couple of shelters I've been too tell a different story. Are you saying that people who surrender their dogs to you tell you what they paid for the dog? What is the main reason for surrendering them? Financial or just not what they expected?

Off the top of my head:

I lost my job and can't afford to keep the dog
I've got a new job, the dog's on his own all the time and it's not fair on him
I'm pregnant, the dogs have to go
I have a small baby now, I don't have time for the dog
I'm putting my house up for sale
My new landlord doesn't accept pets
The dog keeps getting out
The dog is upsetting the neighbours' cats
The dog is wrecking the garden
The dog is p*ssing and sh*tting everywhere
The dog is not what I expected
The dog jumps all over the children and they're scared of him
I'm getting work done in the house and there'll be builders walking in and out
My mother/brother/boyfriend bought me a surprise present of a puppy

ISDW

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Well the couple of shelters I've been too tell a different story. Are you saying that people who surrender their dogs to you tell you what they paid for the dog? What is the main reason for surrendering them? Financial or just not what they expected?

Are these from responsible breeders or puppy farms?

Don't know if that was for me, but I'll answer it anyway:D People don't tell me how much they paid for their dog, but you mentioned the figure of €1000 and knowing how much sibes and mals were going for a couple of years ago, some of the dogs that I've had in would have cost that much.

I wouldn't think that any of the dogs I've had in (apart from one, that had extenuating circumstances) was from a responsible breeder, as I said earlier, responsible breeders will take any pups they bred back, no matter how old they are.

I had a phone call last year from someone that I knew, and has since become a good friend. They occasionally breed siberian huskies, they had a call from a vet that a dog had been found and the microchip was registered to them. They had sold the dog as a pup, they tried to contact the owner, but he'd moved. They told the vet they would obviously take the dog back. THe vet said they would send it to the pound, I rang the pound, explained the breeder was a good one, but they refused to return the dog to them, as they won't return dogs to breeders. As it turned out, the owner was contacted, but he didn't want the dog back as it kept escaping, so the person that found it kept it. The breeder was absolutely distraught, as now they don't know who has the dog, whether they know anything about sibes etc. They wanted that dog back and were prepared to drive the 4 hours it would have taken them to get there but they were tarnished with the 'all breeders are bad' brush. She still talks to me about that dog, wondering how he is.

luvdogs

Thats a sad story, hopefully the person that kept the sibe gave it a good home! Any good breeder will def a dog back in a heartbeat and will have breeding restrictionsn on them too!!

Discodog

I suspect that many people who criticise rescues have no concept of the pressure that they are under. Most rescues are individuals who make huge sacrifices to help dogs. They work flat out all day & a day off is unknown. They have to constantly balance the budget & make daily decisions as to which dog they can take & which ones they can't.

In other countries there is not this huge pressure. If a rescue here cannot get a dog out of the Pound immediately it dies. I suspect that, if people are honest, the biggest problem with getting a Pound dog is leaving the others behind.

Ireland has few big rescues. One of the ideas behind the Dogs Trust was to provide people with a choice of dogs in a non pressured environment. In the UK there are many large rescues like the DT within easy reach of everyone.

In an ideal world it would be easy for anyone to get a rescue dog & be fairly specific about age, type etc. Ireland is far from ideal & this puts immense pressure of those who devote their lives to rescue. It is bound to hurt when you see someone with their new pup knowing that you have dogs that are literally dying for a home.

It would drive most animal lovers to the depths of despair so let's cut the rescues a bit of slack if they fall below our expectations.

lrushe

I don't think anyone here is critising rescues, not intentually anyway. Some like myself would just like to show the other side of the coin, that while in an ideal world everyone would adopt but for some it just isn't possible and those people shouldn't be critised either if they fall short of that ideal.

Inzilbeth

I think it is really an individual decision whether to buy a puppy or adopt from a rescue shelter.. and in May this year after tons of looking and researching into what dog to bring into my family of 6, I happened upon a gorgeous wonderful rough collie at an animal santuary which I shall not name, but online they said he had been surrendered by his owner as they were leaving the country and more importantly for me he was really good with children and trained on the lead!!
It turned out to be the biggest load of bull..We just went and got the dog. No checks were done on us and no background given as to the dog. I admit I was a total eejit not to look into it more. I got my dog and once home he was totally hyper which we put down to just getting used to us and just got on with things.
He nipped the children constantly looking for attention which is flippen sore when a one year old dog does it to a three year old, went balistic when out on the lead if he heard a dog barking to such an extent he would bite at his lead and my hand to get away and the culmination was one day he broke free ( he is strong) ran to a neighbours and was totally vicious barking at the dog in the garden.. when my teenage son went to get him on the lead, he tore a massive gash in his trousers trying to get away. One neighbour ( who is a scary individual) told me to get him under control or he would shoot him
It was a terrible time.. I had all four of the kids with me and when I got home did tons to research to try and find out what was wrong.. including ringing trainers.. all with different opinions, he is hyper, defensive aggressive, etc etc
He is a totally gorgeous dog when at home but when out changes. There is no way the santuary should have said he was good on the lead.
In the end I sent him for residential training as getting him neutered, doing back to basics training etc was not working and he was still nipping and it was getting dangerous.
The training worked like a dream.. he no longer bites, comes when calls, has a wonderful bond with the adults ( not the little ones) but the issue with walks outside has not been resolved.
The moral.. do your homework,, no matter where you get your dog from.
I keep waking each morning and hoping today will be better as I love him to bits.. but...am starting to think maybe another dog would good to get him totally socialised and managable and I have found a rehoming place who will take him.. albeit not in this country .. specialising in his breed.. but I will keep going to a while longer... in hope.
So firstly puppy or rescue dog it does not matter.. but please get one if you do from only reputable centres who have full histories especially if you have children in your home.
Not only has our lad cost us tons to date in 7 months.. but it is going to break the kids hearts if he has to go.. but even they are fed up now of not being able to take him for basic walks without having to go in the car out to the middle of no where to let him off the lead

kiersm

Poor you i feel so sorry for you but I can sympathise. When i got my Cavalier i wanted a pedigree at the time and was trying to avoid puppy farms so spoke to a friend of mine who was involved with dogs to see did he know anyone who might have a dog coming up for me, so he did and we went out to see the pups in this persons house and we found our dog and a few weeks later we took him home. At the time i didn't know about checking up on his history etc, thought i'd be okay cos i was going with a friend of a friend but i was wrong. My dog spend his first 6 months in and out of the vets, he had mange, tummy bugs, i became well known at the vets!! To this day he has a very sensitive stomach. Now at the time we didnt no you were supposed to change a dogs food over time so i just changed it not long after we got him and that caused us even more problems. Fortunately he has come rite in the last few months but I don't think i'll ever buy a pedigree again. Admittedly I dont know why or what caused him to be so sick but it was a nitemare.

In comparison the cross breed we got as company for him is so sturdy and nothing like the other fella health wise, thank god. All i can say is thank god for pet insurance.

lrushe

I'm sorry you had such hardship with your dog but it really is the fault of the breeder rather than the fact that your dog was a pedigree.
People often come here and want to breed their pet pedigree dogs which I am totally against if you haven't health tested, done your research into the bloodlines and shown/worked your dog and its for the health reasons you've just mentioned.
(Touch wood!) I've never had a (hereditary) health issue with a pedigree dog, in say that I've had very few with mongrels also (except a friends mixed breed who dropped dead when we were out walking a few years back, his heart just stopped, he was only 6). It's bad breeders like the one who produced your dog that gives good breeders and pedigree dogs a bad name.

Discodog

The breeders that were exposed by Panorama, including the Cavalier woman, were all highly respected breeders of championship pedigree dogs.
She allowed her dog to go to stud despite knowing that it had a serious congenital disorder.

adser53

Discodog wrote: »

The breeders that were exposed by Panorama, including the Cavalier woman, were all highly respected breeders of championship pedigree dogs.
She allowed her dog to go to stud despite knowing that it had a serious congenital disorder.

True and you would hope that going through the motions of finding a good breeder would eliminate that risk but it just shows you that even in show circles where youd assume people are in it for the love of the breed, that there are still some unscrupulous individuals that are in it for a few quid and don't care about the dogs but they aren't all like that. That particular woman should be banned from showing and breeding

lrushe

Discodog wrote: »

The breeders that were exposed by Panorama, including the Cavalier woman, were all highly respected breeders of championship pedigree dogs.
She allowed her dog to go to stud despite knowing that it had a serious congenital disorder.

Knowledge is power though, know the breed you want, know the diseases associated with it and demand the parents be tested or walk away.
Alot of people don't want the 'right' dog, they want the 'right now' dog, they just aren't willing to wait a year or two on two health tested dogs to be bred, they'll just go down the road to some guy who has bred his pet dogs for 'fun'. It's these people through impatience or ignorance that help fuel sickly pedigree dogs.

lrushe

adser53 wrote: »

youd assume people are in it for the love of the breed,

When it comes to people and money I wouldn't assume anything, as the saying goes 'when you assume you make an ass out of u and me':).
Seriously though the person most likely to lie to you is someone trying to sell you something, it's up to the buyer to do their homework and not get taken advantage of no one else will do it for you.

kiersm

I agree I know its not the breed but it may have been partly my fault for changing his food so suddenly, that may have aggravated everything. I do blame the breeder but there was nothing i could do bout it as she is a friend of a friend and its not worth the hassle to do anything bout it. But he's fairly good now just have to watch what he eats and if we're out or away at friends we have to be careful with what pep give him.

Still he is such a pet and such good company all the trouble was worth it & i'm vv lucky that i have a fab vet. The original reason i had bought a pedigree was i had planned on breeding him but after doing some research into it i changed my mind cos looking at his history i felt he wasn't suitable so some peps get a dog and reallly dont realise how much work is involved, cos i didn't but i learned or rather he taught me!!

Discodog

People should bear in mind that dogs change when they are stressed such as being in a rescue. Also dogs react to insecurity in different ways. A rescue may well believe that a dog has a particular personality but that may change when the dog is able to relax & be itself. It will also react to those around it.

When I found my pup he was too good. Butter would not melt & I was actually worried about him but I had seen even worse with my greyhound. I am now overjoyed that he chews his lead & bed. I adore the way that he will hide behind the sofa, leap out & grab my ankle. To me he is doing exactly as I would expect a pup to do.

The big rehoming centres like the Dogs Trust have the money to really assess each dog & potential owner. Your average rescue is totally absorbed in finding the money for the pile of food & vet bills. My advice would be that if you have a family or are not confident with dogs then go to one of the bigger rescues. Or go to one of the well known ones that offer training.

The absolute key in bringing a dog into a family is consistency. There has to be a set out behaviour for the dog but even more important is that the whole family must have rules as to how they deal with dog. We have all seen countless situations where the dog ends up trying to rationalise several "bosses" who are all saying different things.

We need to be training owners in how to train their dogs rather than external training. When a trainer has finished it is the owner that is left with the dog.

Angelmangle

lrushe wrote: »

But how would me not buying my dogs stop said dogs from being put to sleep???
Rescues won't rehome to me for reasons I've already mentioned so the only difference there would be if I didn't buy my dogs would be that I wouldn't have a dog, there would be no extra dogs rescued.
As I've said here more than once I would love to rehome an ex-racing greyhound, I've had them before and love the breed and hopefully in years to come when I am home more that will be option for me but for now it's not. If I did adopt I would rather go to a rescue where the dog would be s/neutered, chipped, vacc'd etc. possibly know their health and temperament history and the dog would be matched to me etc. and that is why I alway recommend rescues when a poster post about a dog.
I feel I do my part by only going to reputable breeders who only breed every other year to add something to their breed, most of these pups are booked before they are even born. These breeder rarely make a penny doing this and it's purely for the love of their breed. Also the breeders of my 3 dogs will take back my dogs if for some reason I could no longer keep them, my dogs and the dogs produced by my dogs' breeders will never (with their knowledge) end up in shelters.
I've had dogs for over 25 years but only ever had 4 pedigree dogs (not including family dogs when I was younger) that I have either paid for or have been presents, all of my other dogs have been waifs and strays I've picked up along the way. I've no problem adopting a dog however to judge me because I have bought some of my dogs I definately do think is wrong, how easy it is for some who have the option of adopting to sit on their high horse and try to guilty those who don't, it might do you better to try have a look at the other side of the fence and realise it is not that black and white as you might think.

Where do I start! We as a nation have an awful situation in that many thousands of dogs, pure breeds and heinz are put to sleep in this country each year. I as a dog lover believe that this situation is abhorrant and I am entitled to my opinion be it ever so black and white to others. I think Irushe without meaning to antagonise you personally, that you doth protest a little too much. I don't know why the rescue organisations would not give you one of their dogs, but they must have had in their eyes a good and valid reason. My intention was not to moralise or to make you feel guilty, I was simply expressing my opinion as I am entitled to do. But as I have said before given the choice, I would always save a life before buying a puppy because it really is that black and white and by denying that you are simply lying to yourself.

lrushe

Angelmangle wrote: »

Where do I start! We as a nation have an awful situation in that many thousands of dogs, pure breeds and heinz are put to sleep in this country each year. I as a dog lover believe that this situation is abhorrant and I am entitled to my opinion be it ever so black and white to others. I think Irushe without meaning to antagonise you personally, that you doth protest a little too much. I don't know why the rescue organisations would not give you one of their dogs, but they must have had in their eyes a good and valid reason. My intention was not to moralise or to make you feel guilty, I was simply expressing my opinion as I am entitled to do. But as I have said before given the choice, I would always save a life before buying a puppy because it really is that black and white and by denying that you are simply lying to yourself.

Look we're singing off the same hymn sheet when it comes to how dogs (or indeed most animals) are treated by (some) people in this country but that doesn't make good pet owners 'immoral' or 'unethical' for buying a dog.
I was refused from adopting by a rescue group because there is no one in my house for 8 hours a day and I'd rather my dogs were outside when I wasn't home.
I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion, no more than I am entitled to buy a dog should I choose to.
Prehaps it is black and white to you or prehaps you need to take off the rose tinted glasses and see that having your heart in the right place doesn't alway ensure life goes as you want it to.

kiersm

I had the same exp as Irushe & i dont feel that i was wrong in buying my dogs instead of rescuing. Also personally speaking I dont think i would be able to handle a rescue dog that has been mistreated etc becasue i won't be know how to handle it or how to deal with a dog like that in case they needed special handling etc.

Whispered

You can get pups as young as 8 weeks from rescues.

Bullseye1

I get the feeling some people resent that some dog owners have paid for their pups. How does that make them any less of a good responsible owner?

I'm sorry but you won't make new friends to your cause by continuously having a go at people in this ways.

Whispered

Oh I don't think anybody resents people who buy their dogs. They probably resent the fact that they are struggling to rehome rescues, barely able to keep their organisation going and doing what is best for their dogs while listening to people talking about paying hundreds to dodgy dealers who only contribute to the problems animal welfare faces in this country.

It's not a personal thing at all against people who buy their dog, well not for me anyway. I love to see people who come on here asking where to find the best breeder etc. It's irresponsible people who go and buy a pup, not caring where it came from that bother me.

Bullseye1

Fair enough. I would encourage people to donate to these organisations who perform amazing work. If I had more ground I would certainly consider more than one dog. I guess I'll have to stick with the one I have and my stray cat.

magentas

I don't think it's anything to do with money really, a charity/dog rescue often requires a donation, in my case it's €150 which I am glad to pay and wish I could afford more to give them, whereas I've seen pups "advertised" for €40/50 and you can guess what kind of "breeders" are selling them.

Irushe sorry you were turned down by rescue, they have their rules too and I was almost turned down recently too as they said our other dog is still young but they asked me to foster first to see how things go so fingers crossed!:)

you're right though, it's NOT always black and white, another common reason for been refused adoption by a shelter is if there are children under 7 in the household

Meteoric

I've been around Labs for more than 20 years now, my aunt breeds them, I've shown my own two and I've seen a lot of the stuff that goes on around these pedigree dogs.
People seem to be forming the impression that it is either Rescue or Buy and that the two are mutually exclusive. One of the best couples I ever met bought a pup from my aunt, then adopted another Lab from rescue, when the bought one died (of old age) they bought another from my aunt because they wanted one related to their original bitch but never wanted to breed. They were really good owners to all of their dogs. My aunt gave them a new dog and would be happy I think to give them dogs for free as long as they want them, it's not that she can afford it but knowing that a dog is going to such a good home is worth the loss. She has a few people like this.
Like any responsible breeder she takes back any dog that the owners do not want any more, depending on the circumstances the cost of the pup may be refunded. On the other hand no more than the rescues she will not sell a dog in certain circumstances, unlike a shelter she does not have to have set in stone rules that people have to fit, but like one person rescues (I imagine) can use discretion to ignore one thing if everything else indicates it will be a good home for the dog.
Particularly with registered dogs having to be microchipped it is now possible to find out the pedigree of a rescue dog, which unfortunately people do give away. One of the top winning Labs is Int Ch Ole, a dog that was a rescue in France, because they were able to figure out his pedigree he could be shown by the new owners http://www.legasealabs.com/Ole.htm (disclaimer I think this is him but may be wrong)
I also know of someone in Ireland who rescued a dog surrendered to the pound and is now an Irish Champion because they got the papers from the person who surrendered him.
Basically what I trying, probably badly, to say is there are no hard and fast rules apart from never buy from puppy farmers. Do your research, decide what you want and either take a dog you love from a rescue or a dog you love from a responsible breeder. Like anything else if a price is too good to be true, it is a bad deal, my aunt does not discount pups just to get rid of them, in part because people are more likely to return them to her if they know they might get some of the money back rather than send them somewhere she does not know what type of home they are sent to. If a breeder does not ask you a lot of questions about where the pup is going to and what type of situation it is going to be in, you don't want to buy from them

ShaShaBear

Well on this topic, I would like to add that I have taken in a total of two rescue dogs. The first one from my local rescue centre. He was absolutely darling. A ginger-coloured terrier cross by the name of Brandy. We took him home, he was as good as gold in the car, was a bit iffy on toilet training for a day or two, but we expected that with nerves. For a month or so everything seemed fine, until one day my sister (at the time she was 8 years old) tried to put her leftover ham sandwich into the dog's bowl as he was eating, and he almost took her middle finger off. Unfortunately, my father was insistant that she had probably made the dog think she was taking his food, and that was the end of it. Until a month later, when my mother and father had a bit of a spat in the kitchen, my dad raised his voice a tad too high, and Brandy tore my mother's ankle to pieces, got her to the ground, and cornered her behind the kitchen door for an hour while we waited on the dog warden to arrive.
Brandy was euthanised three hours after the dog warden came to pick him up. He did not file charges for the stitches he had to receive on his hand or face due our dog.

My second dog was a 2 year old collie cross, which was named Lexx. I got him with my boyfriend when we moved in together from another rescue centre and I was home full time caring for him. I babysat my boyfriends newborn niece and nephew regularly, and I could have trusted Lexx with them no bother. Even when they began to crawl, pulling out of him and screaming at him, he never so much as laid back his ears. After one year, my boyfriend was on the couch with the dog on his lap watching a DVD when I came in the door. I sat down and leaned over to kiss my boyfriend and cuddle Lexx, and the result was a permanent scar on my elbow from where Lexx ripped a large portion of skin off out of jealousy. He was euthanised at the end of May last year.

I will never, ever get another dog from a rescue centre again. I have recently seen the conditions they are kept in - in large cages with at least two other dogs, where they have to fight each other for food and attention. With older dogs, this habit cannot be unlearned. I would never be able to trust another adult rescue dog again after experiences like this.

My family dog, bought for €20 off a family friend one year after Brandy had been put to sleep, is now six years old. He has never growled, snapped at or bitten anyone. He was taught from 11 weeks of age that his toys, food bowl and other "pack members" would be touched and taken from him at any stage. I imagine we will be lucky enough to keep him until his days are done.

I am aware that not all people have the same experience with rescue dogs, but after being abandoned, whether stray or genuine surrender, they feel a lack of trust, lonliness and fear. Having to compete with other dogs for the food bowl they generally share in their cage, as well as for the attention of the employees at the rescue centre is a habit most rescue dogs will never drop.