Pat Rabbitte, short memory?

Pompey Magnus

Fianna Fail made this mess and they deserve every bit of condemnation and scorn for it, they failed the Irish people. However the opposition failed the Irish people too, they are paid by the Irish tax payer to call the government up on their bad decisions before it is too late, not to wait until the damage has done and then make cheap shots to maximise their seats in any imminent election. The concept of an opposition is important in any kind of democracy and they did not do their job, they never called a halt to the property madness as it was easier to just go with flow. The idea that their was some kind of shady Government conspiracy to "cook the books" is complete nonsense and an easy excuse for a lazy oppostion.

The Labour party did not make this mess, but they still failed to their job for the Irish people so where Rabbitte calls for FF to leave the Dail in disgrace he is spot on, they should, but so too should alot of the members from Rabbitte's side of the house.

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Out of interest can you tell me when he made this comment/speech in 2007? the difference between saying it in jan and december is night and day, another aspect that Devore left out.

Actually Jan or Dec would make no substantive difference at all. The property bubble was running strong from 2001 on. It was warming up before, but went white hot after.

DeVore wrote: »

Look, I'm not taking a cheapshot at Rabbitte but its rather galling coming from an opposition who did nothing and have just voted themselves pay-rises along with FF

Bingo. Like I said earlier how many of these upstanding members of the Dail said no to their payrises and other perks? About the only times the dail seats were packed to the rafters was when they were voting on such. ALL sides. All had their piggies noses in the trough. From what I recall Joe Higgins was one of the few actively suggesting the payrises were daft and I admire him for that and other things even though I'm no far left winger.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually Jan or Dec would make no substantive difference at all. The property bubble was running strong from 2001 on. It was warming up before, but went white hot after.

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

cleremy jarkson

brianthebard wrote: »

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

This is true. It actually does make a massive difference as I think 2007 really was our make or break year; after that it was too late for a soft landing.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

Why? House prices had climbed in the 90's. For a couple of reasons. For a start this country had a baby boom between 65-75 and those people were starting to settle down and needed houses. Secondly the prices themselves needed some upward adjustment as we had among the lowest in Europe at the time. So an upward swing was expected. But the inertia caused by going with the Euro massively over swung it. If interest rates had remained high to take the foot of the throttle as any strong economy would do, this would naturally keep the madness in check. On the back of that cheap, damn near free credit would have not have been nearly as available to Irish banks and customers. The government would not have had to go to de peeeeple. What happened entirely because of the Euro was the interest rates halved overnight. In a strong economy. That's a recipe for disaster and quite a few were saying this at the time.
Two things: first I've been around the "tents" in my time. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's only FF'rs. Same with crooked local councils. Secondly in your first lines you're suggesting that "Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster", yet in these lines you're suggesting a government could do just that. Tell me how? Tell me how one could do that without the ability to change interest rates, or staunch the flow of cheap credit?
Your last three words are the meat of the issue and you're dead right, but IMHO that also gives carte blanche to those who will now with the benefit of hindsight claim they would do it completely differently. I'd put money that in a parallel universe as we speak, Boards.ie's servers are weighed down with people congratulating Pat for lambasting Pat, for much the same things only the surnames are reversed. I'll get back to ye when I've perfected my quantum wormhole technology when it's stable enough to post a link

Hmm. Where to start. Well, your first point does not really disagree with or counter my point that any party in opposition that came along and promised to reduce house prices would have got short shrift from the electorate. I think we can all agree on that one?

Secondly, I agree with you that at council level, there was surely corruption on the part of all of the parties in cahoots with various developers. But only FF were in cahoots with them at a national level, in a position to facilitate them with tax breaks (which they did) or curtail them with proper regulation (which they didn't).

How to stop the flow of cheap credit? Tell the regulator that only 3 * earnings or 5 * earnings or whatever is safe for a bank to lend on mortgages. Done at a stroke of the pen. Instead we had 10 * earnings. Tell the regulator that 90% was the most that a bank could lend against a PPR. Or 85%. Or 80%. Instead we had 100% (and more).

There would have been ructions from de peeple unfortunately. That's a problem with our electorate: to dumb to know when you are trying to look out for them, and too credulous when listening to vested interests like the estate agency groups or the banks.

Finally, it I agree it is equally unprovable that FG or Lab would have acted differently, but rather than proving anything, this just demonstrates that there is very little point debating that point at all.

nlgbbbblth

DeVore wrote: »

F*ck FF, they are primarily to blame.

DeV.

Hard to believe that with a name like yours. :rolleyes:

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

No it would have made a huge difference, at the start of the year things still looked manageable, at the end of the year even FF realised they were in for hard times. As it stands now that JS has shown us Devore was quoting out of context it makes even more of a difference.

With respect are you that entrenched in your argument? Good God man if he had said that at the start of the "manageable" year he would have been happily dreaming as soundly as if he had been in bed with FF, if he had said it at the end he would have been sectionable. Either way he would have been wrong and that's the substantive point. I agree with the OP, it's great he decides to have 20/20 vision today. Where was that vigour and passion in the last 10 years? Where was the vote of no confidence from the other side of the house when it was plain to see we were dangerously inflated? Where were the calls of "nay" when they voted in their wage and pension increases?

Wibbs

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm. Where to start. Well, your first point does not really disagree with or counter my point that any party in opposition that came along and promised to reduce house prices would have got short shrift from the electorate. I think we can all agree on that one?

Secondly, I agree with you that at council level, there was surely corruption on the part of all of the parties in cahoots with various developers. But only FF were in cahoots with them at a national level, in a position to facilitate them with tax breaks (which they did) or curtail them with proper regulation (which they didn't).

How to stop the flow of cheap credit? Tell the regulator that only 3 * earnings or 5 * earnings or whatever is safe for a bank to lend on mortgages. Done at a stroke of the pen. Instead we had 10 * earnings. Tell the regulator that 90% was the most that a bank could lend against a PPR. Or 85%. Or 80%. Instead we had 100% (and more).

There would have been ructions from de peeple unfortunately. That's a problem with our electorate: to dumb to know when you are trying to look out for them, and too credulous when listening to vested interests like the estate agency groups or the banks.

Finally, it I agree it is equally unprovable that FG or Lab would have acted differently, but rather than proving anything, this just demonstrates that there is very little point debating that point at all.

I agree, but my point was the biggest mistake in all of this was getting into the Euro. All this crap about sovereignty today when we signed it away in dribs and drabs for the last twenty years. Not always for the worse BTW. I believe in a European economic community. Even more for a European Community, but I'm bloody dubious about a European Union. But most especially a common fiscal policy weighted towards the big boys.

In essence we signed away a large chunk of our economic control with the masstricht treaty and it was a large reason, if not the biggest for our(and Spain/Portugal/Italy's) boom and bust.

Now of course our more naive Europhiles will now say "ah well they're gonna help bail us out" ahh isnt that nice. Just as nice as when they set the interest rates to favour themselves. OK so they'll take a hit, but do you really think them "helping" us is not gonna come at a price? Of course it is. They've essentially bought this country's silence and complicity and any others they "help". Watch and see. Come back to this thread in ten years time.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote: »

With respect are you that entrenched in your argument? Good God man if he had said that at the start of the "manageable" year he would have been happily dreaming as soundly as if he had been in bed with FF, if he had said it at the end he would have been sectionable. Either way he would have been wrong and that's the substantive point. I agree with the OP, it's great he decides to have 20/20 vision today. Where was that vigour and passion in the last 10 years? Where was the vote of no confidence from the other side of the house when it was plain to see we were dangerously inflated? Where were the calls of "nay" when they voted in their wage and pension increases?

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous. Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of. Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of. Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies. Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

parker kent

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

This is true. It actually does make a massive difference as I think 2007 really was our make or break year; after that it was too late for a soft landing.

We were in the shít at that stage already. Any talk of a soft landing in 2007 is nonsense. Peak house prices were February 2007. The bubble existed for much longer than people admit.

I did a thesis on this topic and it is amazing how much was ignored. As early as 2000, prominent outside organisations had identified a property bubble. Fast forward to 2007 and Ireland and Spain were at the peak of the property bubble and many people who should have been listened to were saying it would burst imminently.

OPENROAD

brianthebard wrote: »

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous. Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of. Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of. Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies. Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

Re Universal healthcare, how much will it cost and how will it be paid for?

parker kent

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree, but my point was the biggest mistake in all of this was getting into the Euro. All this crap about sovereignty today when we signed it away in dribs and drabs for the last twenty years. Not always for the worse BTW. I believe in a European economic community. Even more for a European Community, but I'm bloody dubious about a European Union. But most especially a common fiscal policy weighted towards the big boys.

In essence we signed away a large chunk of our economic control with the masstricht treaty and it was a large reason, if not the biggest for our(and Spain/Portugal/Italy's) boom and bust.

Now of course our more naive Europhiles will now say "ah well they're gonna help bail us out" ahh isnt that nice. Just as nice as when they set the interest rates to favour themselves. OK so they'll take a hit, but do you really think them "helping" us is not gonna come at a price? Of course it is. They've essentially bought this country's silence and complicity and any others they "help". Watch and see. Come back to this thread in ten years time.

On the flip side, many have suggested that us being in the Euro has helped stave off a currency crisis and a resulting twin crisis. A small currency like the Punt might have been a noose around our necks.

Jumpy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte didn't have access to the cooked government books when he said that.
Pat Rabbitte was taking the lying government ministers at their word when they said the economic outlook for Ireland was never better.
Pat Rabbitte was not aware that Fianna Fail were assisting their Galway tent banker pals in defrauding the state.
If you're looking to blame Pat Rabbitte for the mess we're currently in, you're sadly deluded.

This post is WAAAAY funnier when you read "Pat Rabitte" in the same voice used for "Matt Damon" in Team America.

*teehee*

Wibbs

brianthebard wrote: »

Hold on Devore purposefully misrepresented Rabbitte, and even though you've been shown that fact you continue to support that argument? And you say I'm entrenched? Ridiculous.

How did he misrepresent Rabbitte? It's nowhere near a "fact".

Labour did not have control of the state's finances at the time the speech was made, end of.

Eh he was in the opposition. You know the side of the house that points fingers, asks questions, shows an alternative. Yet when faced with the screamingly bloody obvious(and yes even I who is not the brightest economically said similar) he came ut with that guff?

Labour would not have given a bank guarantee, end of.

Possibly. Maybe even probably, but we don't know that. Having observed both sides of the house vying for votes in the good times, it's amazing how silent they were then. Worse than silent, when they did blow forth it was missing the point by a country mile to score points.

Its a complete fallacy to suggest Pat Rabbitte had no vigour or passion until now? I have no idea how people can come up with this nonsense, its the exact same as saying Labour have no policies.

Did he or FG call for a vote of no confidence at any stage beyond Dail blowharding? Did L or FG refuse to agree to wage and pension increases at any stage? Did L or FG table a motion to curb wayward inflation and the housing bubble? That would be a no. Both were bloody useless for the most part. The opposition in this country operated on the reactive principle, not the proactive. 9 times out of 10 they reacted when the gobshíte FF's said or did something. There was a paltry fund of vigour and or brains to draw from on both sides of the house.

Well if you decide to rip up the page with Labour's policies on it, then stuff the shreds in your ears while shouting 'lalala I'm not listening to your policies' then yes you're going to miss them but otherwise you're just intentionally ignoring straightforward facts.

Again show me just one time where Labour(or FG) TDs voted en masse against upping their wages and pensions. Yea bit of a sticking point there Ted.

johnn

Ah I see......Pat Rabbitte is to blame.

Wibbs

parker kent wrote: »

On the flip side, many have suggested that us being in the Euro has helped stave off a currency crisis and a resulting twin crisis. A small currency like the Punt might have been a noose around our necks.

That's possible yes, but we would have had more control to reduce that risk. For a start we could have raised interest rates and or devalued so it wasn't worth speculating on. Then again with the muppets we vote in good sense may well not have prevailed.

Wibbs

johnn wrote: »

Ah I see......Pat Rabbitte is to blame.

Nope. Not at all. Simplistic response to a complex question. Of course he's not to blame. FF and their cronies are. But those across the house as a viable opposition that could have seen the problems and made enough noise about it to make a difference? Then yes. And not just him.

Wibbs

OPENROAD wrote: »

Re Universal healthcare, how much will it cost and how will it be paid for?

That's a problem with the left in general. Often truly clever and inventive and proactive in spending a countries wealth very wisely, sadly what they tend to lack is the ability to create that wealth to the point where they can spend it.

Biggins

Minister hangs head in shame in TV roasting

IT WAS a public execution never seen before on Irish television as a shame-faced Government minister was slaughtered before the nation.

The hapless minister Pat Carey looked ashen as the Labour party's Pat Rabbitte unleashed a volley which summed up the mood of the nation.

After two years of failing to avoid our IMF doom, and then for continuing to lie about it, minister Carey had no apology or excuse.

Instead he dropped his head and stared glumly at the floor as Rabbitte told him: "You ought to be ashamed of yourself."

Waffle

The Labour justice spokesman left the Government in no doubt about the reality out there -- a reality that our millionaire ministers seem oblivious to.

Mr Rabbitte spoke for everyone when he unleashed his controlled fury which articulated the public's dismay as the IMF takes over our finances on the Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs on Prime Time. Even before his blistering attack, Mr Rabbitte loudly plonked his glass of water on the studio desk while Mr Carey was speaking.

It was clear he could barely stand to listen to more Government waffle.

"After failing to supervise the regulation of the banks, this Government fails to act between the collapse of Northern Rock and 12 months later, the 28th of September," Mr Rabbitte calmly said.

As Mr Carey tried to defend his administration, the Dublin South West TD had had enough.

"You ought to be ashamed to show your face in this studio after what you have brought our country to penury tonight and the damage that you have done to people's livelihoods and start the young people emmigrating again," Mr Rabbitte said.

"You have destroyed this economy and you engaged in lies over the weekend.

"You denied it and then you went on to pretend that it's Ireland coming to the rescue of Europe," he added, as Mr Carey could only look on in silence.

"It's about time you went because you can do no more damage to this country. And coming on here with your 'auld palaver' about this and that.

"You didn't do anything to avoid the crisis that was coming down the tracks at us.

"You maintained property-based tax incentives until you inflated the bubble that has brought us to the state we're in.

"And now you come out here saying this is someone else's fault not our fault," he told Mr Carey.

Problem

"It's the fault of the Irish Government and you ought to be ashamed of where you brought us tonight."

Mr Carey tried to defend himself, saying "No, I'm not ashamed."

To which Mr Rabbitte quickly responded: "Well you ought to be.

"That's the problem with you -- you're not ashamed. You don't have any shame."

When he eventually had the opportunity, Mr Carey weakly defended himself and his Government colleagues.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/minister-hangs-head-in-shame-in-tv-roasting-2427671.html

waxon-waxoff

Rabbitte is no better than FF. Where was he a few years ago when things were getting out of control? Its easy to complain now when its too late.

He is part of the elite and out of touch with the electorate. He takes home 100k a year and sends his kids to private school.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

Minister hangs head in shame in TV roasting



http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/minister-hangs-head-in-shame-in-tv-roasting-2427671.html

Just watched the footage there, and while I agree with what Rabbitte says, the Herald couldn't even report on this independently. What a rag.

skelliser

As far as im concerned you can only judge a party by their record in government.
Labour where last in gov. in the 94-97 rainbow coalition.
That gov. had an excellent Minister of Finance in Ruairi Quinn.

This is how that gov left the country:

free third level fees
surplus deficit
economic growth
rising employment

contrast that to how FF will leave the country.

This FF propaganda that they are all the same is bull.

Vote them in and judge them on their actions. Until then what they did or didnt do in opposition is all hearsay as far as im concerned.

For too long we have had FF and there cronies in the media in power. They have grown accustomed to lying and misleading the public. Now the party is over they are trying to deflect the blame and drag the opposition in with this "they are all the same" bollox.
If you want to think like that, well thats fine. But in doing that nothing will change and we will be destined to repeat the same mistakes.

Im no fan of the unions but thats not all labour are beholden too. They do have a social conscience unlike FF where the sole objective is power.
Its great to see a country which is closing public hospitals whilst opening private ones.
That would not happen under labours watch.

And if your worried about labours links with the unions well then vote for a labour/fine Gael gov. They arent friendS with the unions and so will cancel each other out.
Like wise some of Fine Gaels policies will not get passed labour.
What im saying is we will get the best of both worlds.

THEY CAN DO NO WORSE THEN FIANNA FAIL!

Worm Tamer

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

Rabbitte is no better than FF. Where was he a few years ago when things were getting out of control? Its easy to complain now when its too late.

He is part of the elite and out of touch with the electorate. He takes home 100k a year and sends his kids to private school.

great so
who will you vote for so ? not jenda ?

Pal

Pat's a short memory.

Clown didn't see it coming anymore than the Gvernment did.

GFY Pat

skelliser

"The neo-liberal right must also take responsibility for the damage that it has done to the Irish economy. This includes failure to invest in infrastructure in a timely and efficient manner which undermined competitiveness; the overheating of the economy which pushed up inflation and damaged competitiveness; the failure to devise and implement a serious strategy for balanced regional development; the
botched privatisation of broadband infrastructure; the failure of other economic regulatory regimes;"

the record does not stand scrutiny, particularly
where the professions are concerned. That costs in Ireland are among the highest
in the EU is a testament, both to the overheating of the economy by Minister
McCreevy.....

but in a context, as part of a
broader configuration of social organisation, and subject to effective regulation
and/or the promotion of real competition.

Regulation must be
open and accountable, and clearly be functioning in the consumer interest.

While competition is to be
preferred, where it can’t work, we need effective regulation.

Pat Rabbitte 2004
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/fair_economy.pdf

Pal

skelliser wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte 2004
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/fair_economy.pdf

thanks.

what a tosser !

johnn

Looks like Pat had the memory of a Goldfish rather than that of an Elep....Rabbit.

DeVore

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Hard to believe that with a name like yours. :rolleyes:

haha... thats a joke, right? please say you are joking...?

DeV.

Pal

God help this country if that gobshyte Pat Rabbitte ran the place.
Strange how he's even elected but obviously somebody voted for him.

On second thoughts he couldn't be any worse than the current arsehole.