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Pat Rabbitte, short memory?

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    #92
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    brianthebard wrote: »
    If the op was bothered to investigate the different parties policies rather than making the usual smart arsed assumptions of the unpoliticial, they would know that Labour have favoured a policy of nationalisation of the banks, since or before the idea of NAMA was created. This would have shored up the banking system much much more effectively than the banking guarantee and nama and would not have led to the situation we are now in.
    But its far smarter to make bland platitudes about reform parties than it is to actually analysis the existing party policies isn't it.

    Bang on. What an utterly pointless thread :rolleyes:

    You'd swear the guy had any political power to influence the governmental decisions of the past 10 years.

    OP, that was a cheap shot, nothing more nothing less. I suppose you'd turn around and kick a blind man for accidentally hitting you with his stick. Grow up.


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    #93
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Though I would say there is some distraction going on and it's not so much from the usual crew, it's from the europhiles. What has been noticeably absent in the Irish media and politicos is any suggestion that us joining the euro currency had a huge part to play in this. "Oh noes, how dare you!!, we're Europeans you know". I liked the EEC, the EC ditto, we got a lot from membership, but the Euro was a step too far as far as steering our own economic boat was concerned. When the dust has settled in a few years, our "sovereignty" to the IMF won't be an issue, our sovereignty as far as the unelected civil service class in Brussels and Bonn will be(cue uncritical EU lovers going apeshít).

    Of course low interest rates as a result of our Euro membership had a role to play in the property bubble, and Euro membership has not been perfect for the Irish economy. However for the thesis that Eurozone membership is mostly to blame for the current mess to be true, then a couple of things have to be demonstrated.

    Firstly there would have to be convincing evidence that if we retained the Punt we would have mantained artificially high interest rates in the face of widely available cheap international credit. (Leading to a very unpopular situation where banks would have been making vast profits charging high mortgage rates to consumers for money that they borrowed at very low rates on the international markets). Ultimately Iceland while remaining outside of the EU and the Euro still managed to fall into the very same low interest rate trap to fuel their economic bubble.

    Secondly and more importantly, there would have to be some evidence that the Government was desperate to slow down the housing bubble and had used ever other means at their disposal to do so, and their best effort were all in vain because low Eurozone interest rates doomed them to failure. A raft of failed tax relief and rezoning policies, lax regulation and permitting 100% mortages strongly indicates that this was not the case by a long shot.

    I bulk of my anger is directed squarely at FF and their failed policies, I am not sure if this makes me a Europhile or not.

    EDIT: Just to clarify I am of course not trying to strawman your position as defending FF in any way, I think it could not be any clearer that is not the case :).


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    #94
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Though I would say there is some distraction going on and it's not so much from the usual crew, it's from the europhiles. What has been noticeably absent in the Irish media and politicos is any suggestion that us joining the euro currency had a huge part to play in this. "Oh noes, how dare you!!, we're Europeans you know". I liked the EEC, the EC ditto, we got a lot from membership, but the Euro was a step too far as far as steering our own economic boat was concerned. When the dust has settled in a few years, our "sovereignty" to the IMF won't be an issue, our sovereignty as far as the unelected civil service class in Brussels and Bonn will be(cue uncritical EU lovers going apeshít).

    Of course the Euro had something to do with it. However some countries from outside the EU/Euro also fell into the trap, and some countries within the EU/Eurozone didn't. So the extent to which the euro had an effect is debatable and an easy out.


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    #95
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Of course low interest rates as a result of our Euro membership had a role to play in the property bubble, and Euro membership has not been perfect for the Irish economy. However for the thesis that Eurozone membership is mostly to blame for the current mess to be true, then a couple of things have to be demonstrated.

    Firstly there would have to be convincing evidence that if we retained the Punt we would have mantained artificially high interest rates in the face of widely available cheap international credit. (Leading to a very unpopular situation where banks would have been making vast profits charging high mortgage rates to consumers for money that they borrowed at very low rates on the international markets). Ultimately Iceland while remaining outside of the EU and the Euro still managed to fall into the very same low interest rate trap to fuel their economic bubble.

    Secondly and more importantly, there would have to be some evidence that the Government was desperate to slow down the housing bubble and had used ever other means at their disposal to do so, and their best effort were all in vain because low Eurozone interest rates doomed them to failure. A raft of failed tax relief and rezoning policies, lax regulation and permitting 100% mortages strongly indicates that this was not the case by a long shot.

    I bulk of my anger is directed squarely at FF and their failed policies, I am not sure if this makes me a Europhile or not.

    EDIT: Just to clarify I am of course not trying to strawman your position as defending FF in any way, I think it could not be any clearer that is not the case :).

    Interest rates, historically, were much higher in Ireland than during the ECB, and further, the ECB rates were much lower than the historical German Lombard rate. Because Germany wasn't growing fast enough - nor France either.

    The rate for ireland was below inflation, so the interest rates were negative: if an independent Irish Central Bank was tasked with fighting inflation it would have increased the interest rates to above inflation, and probably about 200 basis points about inflation. So we would have had interest rates at about 7% for most of the 2000's.

    In this reading, the ECB is the main culprit.


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    #96
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    And absolutely right, Wibbs. If an politically controlled Irish Central Bank was told to keep interest rates below inflation for 10 years ( were that even possible for a national currency), then that would be presented as the main reason for the current problems.

    which would be right in that case, since it would have been.

    There are all kinds of ideological positions being floated around - the anti-Nationalists and the "hand it back to the UK" camp are masturbating themselves into a stupor; so for these guys to agree that it was loss of financial sovereignty in the first place, would go against their nature and argument.

    ( Apparently we are to hand back to the UK - a country in continuous relative economic decline. Why not join the US?).

    Also we just want to blame us - despite the fact that

    1) Retail lending is not the reason we are in trouble.
    2) Someone had to loan the Irish banks the money.

    If people dont blame us, they blame FF. i wonder how mant house holders are in that position? ( Hint: if you didn't buy houses the developers would not have built them, and the banks would not have lent).


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    #97
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Wibbs wrote: »
    What's brilliant is he(and he wasn't alone) said this in 07 at the very height of the unsustainable bubble, so if you think much would have changed with anyone else at the helm you'd be on a loser IMH.
    And if you think that anyone else would have got into bed with the developers, not regulated the banks, then bankrupted the country to bail out the banks, you're a Fianna Failure.


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    #98
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    ( Hint: if you didn't buy houses the developers would not have built them, and the banks would not have lent).

    At any point one of those groups, developers, buyers or banks could have put the brakes on. Rampant unchecked greed on the part of banks and developers and poorly informed fear on the part of people who bought because they were afraid of prices increasing even further out of their reach. Trying to lay this all off on people who bought is not a balanced way of looking at it.


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    #99
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    And if you think that anyone else would have got into bed with the developers, not regulated the banks, then bankrupted the country to bail out the banks, you're a Fianna Failure.

    Is there any possible answer from people who dont like to be reminded that no political party had a policy to reduce house prices than ad homimen attacks on the poster as a FF supporter?

    Bang another drum.


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    #100
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Morlar wrote: »
    At any point one of those groups, developers, buyers or banks could have put the brakes on. Rampant unchecked greed on the part of banks and developers and poorly informed fear on the part of people who bought because they were afraid of prices increasing even further out of their reach. Trying to lay this all off on people who bought is not a balanced way of looking at it.

    If you look to my other posts I don't. Regulators should regulate ( also retail loans are performing). However, were I to blame Joe Public it would be house buyers, not FF voters, since all parties offered the same pro-property manifestos. If there was public opposition to the property fetishing, it was very quiet opposition.

    ( PropertyPin and some on these boards, excepted)


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    #101
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Is there any possible answer from people who dont like to be reminded that no political party had a policy to reduce house prices than ad homimen attacks on the poster as a FF supporter?

    Bang another drum.
    Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster - a party with those policies would have been laughed out of it by 'de peeple'. What we needed was a government that was not incentivised (think: Galway Tent) to stoke the bubble, and took steps to moderate it and ensure that a) the banks and b) the state were not at risk of financial annihilation. These are not things that you would normally have in your manifesto as they are so blindingly obvious (unless of course you are following FF into government after they've had a long turn at running things).

    FG and Labour and all the others have their weaknesses but to say that they all would have steered us into the same disaster is ludicrous (and totally unprovable)


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    #102
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    prinz wrote: »
    Of course the Euro had something to do with it. However some countries from outside the EU/Euro also fell into the trap, and some countries within the EU/Eurozone didn't. So the extent to which the euro had an effect is debatable and an easy out.
    No it's really not. Stand back and graph our inflation, our higher wages and property bubble from 1990 to 2000. And what do you see? Right well then stick a line on that graph were we joined the Euro. Even Stevie Wonder will spot the connection. Then even if we had somebody in politics with one eye and half a brain there was little we could have done on the currency front as we were tied into the economic wishes of Germany and France. One size does not fit all. Not in a currency with such a wide range of economies and societies under it. And lets look at the other "PIGS" nations. Take that graph and plot their growth and inflation against when the Euro came in. Then look at Germany and France at the same time. Then sit back an think on who benefited most from it and who had the ability to drive it. Now they're paying out, but they'll get back more in the long term. You'll be a long time waiting for another Irish government to ask heavy questions of Brussels again.There's all sorts of rhetoric being spouted about sovereignty at the moment. IMHO we lost a helluva lot of it when we signed up to the Euro. And this is coming from someone who happily voted Yes to Lisbon I, but who voted No to Maastricht.

    The whataboutery of non Euro countries doesn't quite fly either. Iceland in particular was a different kettle of fiskur to Ireland. Oh sure we may have had other issues because of muppets running the banks/governments, but we could as RR outlines below countered that far more easily. We would also spotted the feedback loop a lot more easily. A nation that gives up it's currency and therefore it's basic fiscal control to an outside source, is a nation as far as finance goes in name only. In any event while some whitter on about being European(with some reason to), financially we're a hellva lot less than a country in mainland Europe. The majority of our trade is either with the UK or the US.

    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Interest rates, historically, were much higher in Ireland than during the ECB, and further, the ECB rates were much lower than the historical German Lombard rate. Because Germany wasn't growing fast enough - nor France either.

    The rate for ireland was below inflation, so the interest rates were negative: if an independent Irish Central Bank was tasked with fighting inflation it would have increased the interest rates to above inflation, and probably about 200 basis points about inflation. So we would have had interest rates at about 7% for most of the 2000's.

    In this reading, the ECB is the main culprit.
    This.
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Is there any possible answer from people who dont like to be reminded that no political party had a policy to reduce house prices than ad homimen attacks on the poster as a FF supporter?

    Bang another drum.
    Yep exactly and more to the point I've never been a FF supporter.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #103
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster - a party with those policies would have been laughed out of it by 'de peeple'.
    Why? House prices had climbed in the 90's. For a couple of reasons. For a start this country had a baby boom between 65-75 and those people were starting to settle down and needed houses. Secondly the prices themselves needed some upward adjustment as we had among the lowest in Europe at the time. So an upward swing was expected. But the inertia caused by going with the Euro massively over swung it. If interest rates had remained high to take the foot of the throttle as any strong economy would do, this would naturally keep the madness in check. On the back of that cheap, damn near free credit would have not have been nearly as available to Irish banks and customers. The government would not have had to go to de peeeeple. What happened entirely because of the Euro was the interest rates halved overnight. In a strong economy. That's a recipe for disaster and quite a few were saying this at the time.
    What we needed was a government that was not incentivised (think: Galway Tent) to stoke the bubble, and took steps to moderate it and ensure that a) the banks and b) the state were not at risk of financial annihilation. These are not things that you would normally have in your manifesto as they are so blindingly obvious (unless of course you are following FF into government after they've had a long turn at running things).
    Two things: first I've been around the "tents" in my time. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's only FF'rs. Same with crooked local councils. Secondly in your first lines you're suggesting that "Policies to reduce houseprices would have been a disaster", yet in these lines you're suggesting a government could do just that. Tell me how? Tell me how one could do that without the ability to change interest rates, or staunch the flow of cheap credit?
    FG and Labour and all the others have their weaknesses but to say that they all would have steered us into the same disaster is ludicrous (and totally unprovable)
    Your last three words are the meat of the issue and you're dead right, but IMHO that also gives carte blanche to those who will now with the benefit of hindsight claim they would do it completely differently. I'd put money that in a parallel universe as we speak, Boards.ie's servers are weighed down with people congratulating Pat for lambasting Pat, for much the same things only the surnames are reversed. I'll get back to ye when I've perfected my quantum wormhole technology when it's stable enough to post a link :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #104
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    And if you think that anyone else would have got into bed with the developers, not regulated the banks, then bankrupted the country to bail out the banks, you're a Fianna Failure.

    Oh FFS, there was nothing 'inevitable' about the mess we ended up in, there were more than enough warning signs for the best part of a decade that any competent government could have recognised and acted upon to avert disaster.


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    #105
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    DeVore wrote: »
    "Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


    A pox on ALL their houses.

    DeV.



    Ah come on Tom, that's totally disingenuous - he said that at a time LONG before the economy was tanked due to disastrous mismanagement of the banking crisis, and for what it's worth I think that's hardly a controversial statement to have made at the time.


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    #106
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Btw I went to the Labour manifesto to scoff a bit ( since I remembered the stamp duty bit), but the last bit I quoted stopped the scoffing. They should have got my vote had I read all the manifestos. ( As it happens I didnt vote in Ireland that year - I registered in England).

    Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party. Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.


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    #107
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.

    They would be fundamentally opposed to making the cuts that I think are necessary that's why I could not support them and don't want to see them in a coalition either unless it is the only way to keep the greens out of a coalition.


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    #108
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    DeVore wrote: »
    "Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


    A pox on ALL their houses.

    DeV.
    What's wrong with what he said? During the 90s this country experienced a lot of sustainable economic growth. Even now that the FF-stoked bubble has burst, we are still a hell of a lot more advanced then we were when the state was founded, and even than we were in the 70s and 80s. I credit those advances largely to EU membership, but that's irrelevant. The fact is that the property bubble was not the only source of prosperity we Irish have ever seen, as you seem to believe. You're delusional if you don't think we are better off now than we were in the 1920s.

    It's amazing how quickly some people will throw logic out the window to have a go at Labour.


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    #109
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Executive Steve wrote: »
    Ah come on Tom, that's totally disingenuous - he said that at a time LONG before the economy was tanked due to disastrous mismanagement of the banking crisis, and for what it's worth I think that's hardly a controversial statement to have made at the time.
    In 2007? when we had one of the biggest commodity bubbles since the dutch tulip madness. It was plain to see at the time that it was simply unsustainable. So either he was a bit slow, or he simply didn't read the so called cooked books. If he had(like others did) he would have seen we were simply building more houses than could ever be filled. In 2007 we built nearly twice as many houses in this country with it's population of 4 odd millions than in the UK with its population of 60+ millions. Eh hello?
    brianthebard wrote: »
    Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party. Its complete faux intellectualism to claim that the parties in this country are all the same, its 'look at me, I'm smarter than you fools who vote for parties cause you believe things they say!' It doesn't help the political debate in this country and its not smart.
    Oh I do agree. Contrary to what some here have accused me of, I'm no FF'r and can see that others are better, but my genuine concern is how better are they in actuality. I didnt see any of parties vote against their TD payrises in any number.

    Of course this is now largely moot. If the IMF do come in, we'll essentially be told what to do. So the next crowd have that excuse.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #110
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    FatherLen wrote: »
    there is a thread for this already you jerk. just look a few inches lower and you will see it. :mad:

    Mod: Poster banned for this comment.

    Yeah, bit of a mistake criticising Tom Murphy, one of the owners of boards.ie.

    Hi Tom. :)


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    #111
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Wibbs wrote: »
    In 2007? when we had one of the biggest commodity bubbles since the dutch tulip madness. It was plain to see at the time that it was simply unsustainable. So either he was a bit slow, or he simply didn't read the so called cooked books. If he had(like others did) he would have seen we were simply building more houses than could ever be filled. In 2007 we built nearly twice as many houses in this country with it's population of 4 odd millions than in the UK with its population of 60+ millions. Eh hello?

    Out of interest can you tell me when he made this comment/speech in 2007? the difference between saying it in jan and december is night and day, another aspect that Devore left out.


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    #112
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,661 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Pal wrote: »
    WTF would he have done ?
    .

    He graduated with a MPhil in Economics from Oxord. So unlike Brian Lenihan he may well have been able to challenge the advice from his officials in the department of finance and others who were giving advice to the government. it would seem Brian was out of his depth as evidenced by his late night call to David mcWilliams.
    Also Bruton and others warned that the property sector was overheating at the time, but of course Bertie the great was calling such people moaners and doomsayers who should commit suicide.


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    #113
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    i'll take a stab at that yes...

    i sincerely believe that the screws were turned on us by the EU to accept a loan simply to save their own asses and the asses of spain and portugal. i dont think there was any intention from gov to apply for EU/IMF loans. i believe the story was fed to the BBC from the EU to heap pressure on the gov and i think their initial reaction was 'no way, we dont need to go to the bond markets for 6 months so we'll ride this out till then before making a decision', hence the initial denials. the speculation became rampant and more pressure was applied from all around europe until eventually they were persuaded to talk about a loan in some way - the meeting of finance ministers didn't help matters.

    i dont think it was bare faced lies last weekend - i dont think they realised when making those denials how strong the pressue was about to become. do you seriously think a party loyalists like biffo (and even if he is useless, you cant deny he'd FF to the bone) would want to go down in history as the man who let in the IMF...i dont think so.

    Bottom line with me is they told bare face lies to the electorate, they could have told the truth or just refused to comment. There is no excuse for lieing to us, they have absolutely no right to do that. It's time for them to go now they have lost what little respect there was left for them.


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    #114
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Just watched this clip on YouTube. Have to say it's not all it was built up to be.


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    #115
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    super_furry wrote: »
    In 2007 economic growth and prosperity HAD changed the face of our country and. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state HAD been achieved.

    Pat Rabbitte and his party were not privy to the true reasons as to why this appeared to have happened though, and were unaware - like everyone else in the country - of the crimes that Fianna Fail were committing against the state.

    Anybody in Ireland could have read reports from several world institutions predicting a burst to the property bubble. The first major report on this was in 2000. A leader of a major national party that spews the rubbish that they ALL say should be ashamed of the way this type of information was ignored and buried.

    The blustering hypocrisy seen from people who stand to gain from the current situation is sickening. And before anybody comes in with the usual lines that people saying such things are defending Fianna Fáil, I include them in this comment. They all ignored the comments and advice of people who actually knew what they were talking about.

    And they will always do this when the populist thing differs from such opinions. People did not want to hear about doom and gloom between 2000 and 2008 and no politician or party would have survived if they made any attempt to change the status quo. It is a lie to say that nobody predicted a downturn.

    Edit: Bruton really should have tried harder to emphasize the reliance the boom had on property. He mentioned it every now and then, but Fine Gael should have used it as one of their core objectives. Instead, they opted for the populist stamp duty policy.


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    #116
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    I've always loved Pat Rabbite.
    Even though I used to pronounce it like Pat Rabbiteeee.


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    #117
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    DeVore wrote: »
    "Economic growth and prosperity have changed the face of our country. The prosperity dreamt of by the founders of the Irish state has been achieved.... Ireland is no longer the failed entity of the past."—Pat Rabbitte, 2007 (source http://www.labour.ie/manifesto/1.html)


    A pox on ALL their houses.

    DeV.

    Put in context:
    Ireland has a successful economy, but a society under strain. Hard working families across Ireland live life on a treadmill - a never-ending and ever more grinding cycle of traffic, work, and responsibility. Sections of our people continue to suffer disadvantage and deprivation. One in nine of our children live in poverty, and in some schools, one in three suffers severe literacy difficulties. Growing anti-social behaviour makes life miserable for vulnerable people and their communities. There are signs, particularly among our young people, of a society ill at ease with itself and in need of a fresh sense of purpose
    ...
    The Fair Society is built on a prosperous and sustainable economy, personal liberty and social solidarity
    ....
    Our economic strategy is based on the necessity to build a new platform of competitive advantage for Ireland, based on investment in people, infrastructure and ideas. We are firmly committed to fiscal stability, and in government will adhere to the terms of the EU Stability and Growth Pact, but that is not enough to ensure continued prosperity. We have concentrated particularly on the importance of knowledge in driving growth and prosperity. We reject the notion that inequality is good for economic growth, but rather see an inextricable link between life-long learning and long-term growth and prosperity

    So he's saying that there was wealth but what had to be done was try to sustain that wealth, build infrastructure and remain competitive. He also said we should move away from the rat-race where people are commuting long hours living on a treadmill (while not express in this, the main reason for this was the housing bubble). He also indicated that they were committed to fiscal stability.

    Hardly the same as the FF policy of "Spend like the bejayus to buy all the votes you can, keep borrowing and ignore the increasing hole in the public finances, rely entirely on a property bubble rather than trying to diversify the economy and when things go bad ignore the Stability and Growth Pact and give a blank cheque to the banks".

    This campaign to tar all politicial parties as the same is nonsense. The biggest thing that Labour would have done differently post-2007 is not to bail out the banks, which is the main reason why we are sunk as a nation. What they might have done during 1997-2007 is anybody's guess, however, I doubt they would have put all their eggs in one basket like FF did.

    Finally, even if they were the same as FF in 2007, they have learned their lessons since then because of the crisis. FF, by contrast, have learned nothing and even as late as yesterday the Taoiseach was adamant that there was nothing wrong, international factors, banks well capitalised, we can run our own affairs etc.

    I'm sorry DeV, but that's an incredibly cheap shot at Labour.


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    #118
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Morlar wrote: »
    They would be fundamentally opposed to making the cuts that I think are necessary that's why I could not support them and don't want to see them in a coalition either unless it is the only way to keep the greens out of a coalition.

    But they are not fundamentally opposed to the cuts so perhaps now you can support them?


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    #119
    dusty207
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭dusty207


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    Yep totally agree. Very easy to do a shouty rant against FF when everyone is against them.

    Yup, wasn't even a convincing rant, let loose for a couple of minutes then sat back on his comfortable chair, Tweedledee or Tweedledumb?. Shag all conviction imho, on/off switch kinda stuff.


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    #120
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    kincsem wrote: »
    Yeah, bit of a mistake criticising Tom Murphy, one of the owners of boards.ie.

    Hi Tom. :)
    Plenty of people criticised me in this thread and didnt get banned. Your logic doesnt stack up to empirical evidence :)

    Look, I'm not taking a cheapshot at Rabbitte but its rather galling coming from an opposition who did nothing and have just voted themselves pay-rises along with FF.

    This mess is FF's to own, as much as anyone can really own it. The world did have a financial disaster but then we decided it wasnt bad enough for us and poured petrol on the flames and danced them higher.

    I think FF simply thought they could shore up Anglo and their pals and we'd all take a bath on the cash. Then it got a little out of hand and they tried to fix things with a weak "cuts" budget which didnt go nearly far enough. More money was thrown at the situation and now we are here. They should never ever be elected again.

    The only saving grace is that maybe the IMF will force someone to do something now.

    As for the timing, in fact this is probably the BEST time for us to be negotiating with them. If we were backs to the wall and facing imminent bankruptcy, we might as well bend over and drop our pants. At this time we actually have the "we dont want your money" card to play. Its our only card and we need to get everything we can out of it.

    Its not much but its *something*.

    DeV.


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    #121
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Excellent posts, I don't expect everyone to support labour (they don't truly represent me) but an acknowledgement of the fact that they have policies, and might even have had the policies to cushion this bust, is the least I expect of anyone seriously entering into debate about the party.
    Nationalising the banks wouldn't have helped very much. Doing a debt for equity swap, that's the ticket. As for their long-term growth focus, that was directly contradicted by their earlier policy statements, so it might be best to look at their narrow focus proposals rather than their broad aspirations.

    Right now as far as I can see, they are trading on Gilmore's charisma. What new policies have they got to get us out of this mess?


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