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legalise prostitution, another 500+ jobs yey :)

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    #62
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    You are more at risk of stds and physical abuse if you have sex as a profession surely?

    Are you joking? Surely you have read about prostitution having a profound effect on women psychologically.

    I think there is FAR LESS risk of STDs and physical abuse if it's regulated properly. Also if everyone knows where the red light areas are, then I would say less men would use them as they would be afraid of being spied on.

    On a serious note, of course it must have has a psychological effect on women involved in it. However on balance, it happens, and if it was regulated it would be better for everyone involved. Same goes for drugs in my opinion. The type of regulation is also important, in Ireland we are very bad at regulation.

    As to the question if I would want my nearest and dearest involved, no of course not, but if I had to choose between how things are now and a well regulated industry, i would be far less unhappy with the latter.


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    #63
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    You are more at risk of stds and physical abuse if you have sex as a profession surely?

    Are you joking? Surely you have read about prostitution having a profound effect on women psychologically.

    With regular screening and the requirement to use condoms, the risks are far lower than your average street walker where they operate on an underground level.

    The profound psychological effect comes from societal attitudes and the fact that many are not their by their own choices.

    There are probably many who are allowed to offer the service legally who feel safer and more secure because they are operating within the law of their own country and are less open to exploitation.


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    #64
    Gunsfortoys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    WindSock wrote: »
    With regular screening and the requirement to use condoms, the risks are far lower than your average street walker where they operate on an underground level.

    The profound psychological effect comes from societal attitudes and the fact that many are not their by their own choices.

    There are probably many who are allowed to offer the service legally who feel safer and more secure because they are operating within the law of their own country and are less open to exploitation.

    Which is why I said earlier that it should be legalised.


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    #65
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    You are more at risk of stds and physical abuse if you have sex as a profession surely?
    As it stands prostitutes are exposed to an extremely and IMO unjustifiably high risk of both. Legalising the trade would substantially cut down the risk of STDs amongst both prostitute and client as well as reduce the risk of physical assault and intimidation.

    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    Are you joking? Surely you have read about prostitution having a profound effect on women psychologically.
    What about soldiers, firefighters, police, doctors and nurses, people who deal with some of the most horrific and traumatic situations on a daily basis? Are you saying that the psychological problems they experience are justified because they are providing a valuable social service?


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    #66
    Gunsfortoys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    professore wrote: »
    I think there is FAR LESS risk of STDs and physical abuse if it's regulated properly. Also if everyone knows where the red light areas are, then I would say less men would use them as they would be afraid of being spied on.

    On a serious note, of course it must have has a psychological effect on women involved in it. However on balance, it happens, and if it was regulated it would be better for everyone involved. Same goes for drugs in my opinion. The type of regulation is also important, in Ireland we are very bad at regulation.

    As to the question if I would want my nearest and dearest involved, no of course not, but if I had to choose between how things are now and a well regulated industry, i would be far less unhappy with the latter.

    Agreed.


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    #67
    Gunsfortoys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    Sticky_Fingers wrote: »
    What about soldiers, firefighters, police, doctors and nurses, people who deal with some of the most horrific and traumatic situations on a daily basis? Are you saying that the psychological problems they experience are justified because they are providing a valuable social service?

    When did I say this exactly?

    As Windsock said, many psychological issues with prostitution stem from societal attitudes. With the above professions, they are seen as heroic and noble(as well they should be). It is a completely different situation.


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    #68
    Liberalbrehon
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    Prostitution
    Gambling
    Drinking - Alcohol, alcohol abuse,
    Drug taking

    Two of these activities are illegal in this country. If people were perfect we would use none of them. We are not perfect.
    Prostitution is allowed in parts of the world. Probably could be better policed.
    Gambling is allowed in most parts of the world.
    Drug taking is forbidden in most countries
    Drinking is allowed in non-muslim countries quite readily

    Technically, in a Muslim country none of these activities are allowed. They still happen, and if caught by wrong person you are in big trouble. If not doing all these things would make a society a great place to live then a muslim country is the place to be.

    Let's pretend we have two countries side by side one allows all of the above and the other doesn't. Which would be the better society to live in?
    The one that allowed them all would be a freer society where people could live their lives without government or moral interventionists.
    The other would be a police state as it would take that level of government power to enforce such rules.
    We are half way there. Which one would you prefer to live in?


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    #69
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    When did I say this exactly?

    As Windsock said, many psychological issues with prostitution stem from societal attitudes. With the above professions, they are seen as heroic and noble(as well they should be). It is a completely different situation.
    And thus as windsock pointed out (I didn't see his comment before posting) we need to normailse prostitution and remove the stigma from the industry.


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    #70
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    Prostitution can cause great physical and mental health disorders.

    So can being a miner or a McDonalds worker, so not entirely sure what your point is I am afraid. Unlike mining and McDonalds however, a significant portion of the mental and physical issues connected to it are caused not be the job itself, but the fact it is pushed underground.

    I know you are not saying you think it should be illegal, which you pointed out again in post #22 and several times since but it is worth realising that those who do want it to be illegal use as their arguments things which are actually caused by it being illegal. The arguments they are using to attack it essentially only exist BECAUSE they are attacking it. That has to at least worry you a bit.
    EMF2010 wrote: »
    Repeat anything often enough and it ceases to be fun

    True, and the key word here is "anything". The fact this is true of anything... eating, singing, sex, running, dancing.... anything you can name.... means that it is not really relevant in a talk specifically about one thing.

    Those arguments that apply to everything, essentially apply to nothing.
    Overheal wrote: »
    You could promise ten million in taxes every year but this still wouldn't fly.

    A lot of people talk about taxing them which is great, it is a good argument to make. Do not forget though that we would not just be taxing them, we would be taking them off the dole register which is also a good thing.

    Not just increasing income but reducing expenditure... this is worth remembering.
    EMF2010 wrote: »
    Could you, hand on heart say that it's a job you'd like to see your mother, your sister, your friend doing?

    Yes, if the alternatives were a life in McDonalds or in Afghanistan in the army. I genuinely would.

    However it must be pointed out that what you are engaging in here is called "Appeal to Emotion". You have essentially stopped arguing facts and relevancies and are instead appealing to how people feel about something. "Appeal to Emotion" is something worth googling and there are good reasons why it is listed under common fallacies.

    We may not want to see our sisters and daughters in that profession, but that may not be because we think there is anything wrong with the profession, but that there are relatively better professions they could be in. We all hope for high paid, high success jobs for our loved ones. They do not always get them.
    up for anything wrote: »
    Yes, I for one, do think it is a degrading and shameful way to make a living.

    Then it is very lucky that they do not judge themselves by your standards but by their own is it not?
    up for anything wrote: »
    There are very few people would enter a life of prostitution for fun or money.

    Do you have figures for this or is it just an extrapolation from your own feeling on the matter into a generalisation about what all people must feel?
    up for anything wrote: »
    There are very few people who would care to explain to their children exactly what is going on in that government run brothel

    Maybe, but I wonder how much of that is to do with there being anything actually wrong with the profession, or is it more to do with the fact that there are so many people out there who think it is a "degrading and shameful way to make a living".

    It is a pity how often peoples feeling of shame come not from there being anything actually wrong with their actions, but from their knowledge of the impression other people have of them.


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    #71
    Ectoplasm
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭Ectoplasm


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    True, and the key word here is "anything". The fact this is true of anything... eating, singing, sex, running, dancing.... anything you can name.... means that it is not really relevant in a talk specifically about one thing.

    The point I was making was that painting prostitution as something that is enjoyable just because sex is generally enjoyable isn't really believable. It was in response to something very specific.

    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Yes, if the alternatives were a life in McDonalds or in Afghanistan in the army. I genuinely would.

    However it must be pointed out that what you are engaging in here is called "Appeal to Emotion". You have essentially stopped arguing facts and relevancies and are instead appealing to how people feel about something. "Appeal to Emotion" is something worth googling and there are good reasons why it is listed under common fallacies.


    I know what an appeal to emotion is thanks. I have to say I really hate when people bring things like this into it. As far as I'm concerned this is a discussion and not an argument. I didn't even see this as me pushing any particular point to 'win' an argument. Yes I was asking about how the poster felt. I wanted to know the answer to the question.

    Did you read my later post which explained why I was asking this? I think a lot of people have double standards on this issue. Clearly you don't but that's not the case with everyone who I've discussed this with.

    As I said in my first post, I'm not sure where I stand on regulation and legalisation and making prostitution more mainstream. I question whether simply doing the first will make it socially acceptable or not. I don't know enough about it and when I'm asking questions on here, it is not to win an argument, it is so I can better understand other people's positions because I'm curious about them.


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    #72
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    500 jobs...more than 10,000!!!!!!!!!!!

    Conservatism! BURN IT WITH FIRE!


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    #73
    chops1990
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭chops1990


    Yeah I think they should legalize it too. TAX TAX TAX RAWWRRRR


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    #74
    darragh16
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭darragh16


    Tax the church collection as well... that'll bring in a few bob


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    #75
    up for anything
    Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

    Yes, if the alternatives were a life in McDonalds or in Afghanistan in the army. I genuinely would.

    Would this be your stance on it if the question has read, your father, your brother, your son and your men friends?
    Then it is very lucky that they do not judge themselves by your standards but by their own is it not?

    What proof have you that they do not judge themselves by my standards? The few people I have come across who prostitute themselves as means of making a living were ashamed and felt degraded and they weren't judging themselves by external social standards but by the way the work made them feel.
    Do you have figures for this or is it just an extrapolation from your own feeling on the matter into a generalisation about what all people must feel?

    You are absolutely correct on that but does that necessarily make me wrong?
    Maybe, but I wonder how much of that is to do with there being anything actually wrong with the profession, or is it more to do with the fact that there are so many people out there who think it is a "degrading and shameful way to make a living".

    It is a pity how often peoples feeling of shame come not from there being anything actually wrong with their actions, but from their knowledge of the impression other people have of them.

    Maybe you are right but I am not ashamed of the fact that I feel it is a degrading and shameful way to have to make a living however it does not mean that I regard the people who make their living this way as degraded and shameful in themselves.


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    #76
    SuperInfinity
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,449 ✭✭✭SuperInfinity


    Why the hell would you want the grimy government putting their hands into the pockets of ordinary people again?

    "shur, if we give them more money, then maybe they'll be alright hur hur hur".... are you people slow or something? They will just take the money themselves and want to be bailed out again in the future.

    Yes, prostitution is a normal job and legitimate profession. What is not legitimate is the government coming along and taking money from people. VAT is bad enough.

    The government can **** off out of our business. Why the hell would you want to give them MORE money???

    Can a father not give his children money anymore either without being taxed by the government?

    It's sickening to see people looking for new ways to give the government money.


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    #77
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    darragh16 wrote: »
    Tax the church collection as well... that'll bring in a few bob

    Ive always been in favour of this...

    Lets backdate the bastards as well and end this financial crap.


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    #78
    cancercowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭cancercowboy


    Prostitution is legal in Ireland.


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    #79
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Interesting issue but I've long ago learned that it's like abortion so I usually try to avoid discussing it: it essentially boils down to morality so it gets very heated. I really doubt anyone will have their views changed on this. If you find the idea of people having sex for money distasteful then no amount of statistics or the inevitability of it will change your mind.

    Fair point RE the amount of unpopular jobs. I once worked dragging passed out Scottish people out of a field in Edinburgh after a festival. I never dreamed about that as a child.


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    #80
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    So OP, you would rather see a profession which causes great risk to peoples health legalised

    Gambling is pretty much legal (and in some cases heavily subdised) is it not ?
    Liberalbrehon wrote: »
    Technically, in a Muslim country none of these activities are allowed. They still happen, and if caught by wrong person you are in big trouble. If not doing all these things would make a society a great place to live then a muslim country is the place to be.

    In several predominantely Muslim countries drinking is perfectly legal
    In a few hashish and/or opiate use is legal (or at least tolerated) -some of them being countries where alcohol is prohibited.
    One or two even have areas in larger cities where the authorities turn a blind eye to prostitution.


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    #81
    cancercowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭cancercowboy


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    If you find the idea of people having sex for money distasteful then

    Don't do it.


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    #82
    cancercowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭cancercowboy


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Gambling is pretty much legal (and in some cases heavily subdised) is it not ?



    In several predominantely Muslim countries drinking is perfectly legal
    In a few hashish and/or opiate use is legal (or at least tolerated) -some of them being countries where alcohol is prohibited.
    One or two even have areas in larger cities where the authorities turn a blind eye to prostitution.

    Alcohol will do you much more harm than sex.

    Escorts tend to be more disease free than most people. Their sexual health is their lively hood after all, so they look after it.

    One thing to keep in mind: nobody gets out of life alive.


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    #83
    JG009
    Registered Users Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭JG009


    "My husband goes to Patayya to play golf"


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    #84
    Johro
    Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Elevator wrote: »
    I don't see why the oldest profession in the world has to remain underground in Ireland when the gambling industry can enjoy tax free status and exploit a large number of people day in day out everywhere!!

    at least when ya drop some cash in the brothel you're a winner everytime

    I cannot see the excitment of handing your hard earned cash over to someone for a worthless piece of paper!!
    Screams loser to me.


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    #85
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Elevator wrote: »
    I don't see why the oldest profession in the world has to remain underground in Ireland when the gambling industry can enjoy tax free status and exploit a large number of people day in day out everywhere!!

    at least when ya drop some cash in the brothel you're a winner everytime

    I cannot see the excitment of handing your hard earned cash over to someone for a worthless piece of paper!!

    Thanks to a recent EU directive, some gambling is now subject to VAT.


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    #86
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    EMF2010 wrote: »
    The point I was making was that painting prostitution as something that is enjoyable just because sex is generally enjoyable isn't really believable. It was in response to something very specific.

    I think it is a valid point. You are right that the job will not be enjoyable "just" because sex is enjoyable. However if your job is made up of something that is enjoyable then of course that will lend something towards the factors that help you enjoy the job in question.
    EMF2010 wrote: »
    it is not to win an argument, it is so I can better understand other people's positions because I'm curious about them.

    I can understand that motivation and well done. However it is worth noting that by introducing an appeal to emotion fallacy into a discussion, regardless of your apparently pure motivation for doing so, you risk diluting the usefulness of the discussion.


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    #87
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    up for anything wrote: »
    Would this be your stance on it if the question has read, your father, your brother, your son and your men friends?

    Clearly it would yes.
    up for anything wrote: »
    The few people I have come across who prostitute themselves....

    I am afraid that try as I might I have never managed to find use for unverifiable personal anecdote. The people I have come across in the profession are perfectly happy in their roles and with their lives.

    Anyone can present an anecdote. It helps nothing. My anecdotes perfectly negate yours leaving us back to square one. See the problem?
    up for anything wrote: »
    You are absolutely correct on that but does that necessarily make me wrong?

    Of course not! It can not make your position wrong. It makes your argument for that position irrelevant. There is a difference. Every single think you present for a position X could be bunkum. That does not make position X wrong. It just means position X is entirely unsubstantiated.
    up for anything wrote: »
    Maybe you are right but I am not ashamed of the fact that I feel it is a degrading and shameful way to have to make a living however it does not mean that I regard the people who make their living this way as degraded and shameful in themselves.

    If only the majority of people COULD, like you, tell the difference between

    "I find that action distasteful"

    and

    "the action IS distasteful"

    We would live in a much different world I feel.
    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    so I usually try to avoid discussing it

    Sort of failed there didn't you :-p


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