My Ireland team to face the All Blacks

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

But Munster always play the same old kicking game

Have you watched Munster lately?

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

Have you watched Munster lately?

No, I never watch Munster. Why would I watch a team I support

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

No, I never watch Munster. Why would I watch a team I support

Why describe them as a kicking team? They are evidently not.

stephen_n

Username37 wrote: »

You must really dislike the option of Murphy if you want to call Girven out of retirement!

LMAO a true Freudian slip on my part, don't know where that came from as you correctly assumed I meant Murphy!

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

Why describe them as a kicking team? They are evidently not.

There is a wink where I made that comment. Have you no sense of humour? Do you not read these boards? There are a fair few posters who believe that O'Gara just kicks the ball away (cheaply) all the time and Munster just play 10 man rugby.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

There is a wink where I made that comment. Have you no sense of humour? Do you not read these boards? There are a fair few posters who believe that O'Gara just kicks the ball away (cheaply) all the time and Munster just play 10 man rugby.

You said the Munster kicking game thing as a reply to one of my comments. I don't think that, dunno why you said it, to change the subject perhaps? In fact I hadn't mentioned ROG until you came in and asked me for my opinion of him. Seems I've been successfully baited.

PS I do have a sense of humor, I was just catching you out trying to change the subject. Seems to have worked.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

You said the Munster kicking game thing as a reply to one of my comments. I don't think that, dunno why you said it, to change the subject perhaps? In fact I hadn't mentioned ROG until you came in and asked me for my opinion of him. Seems I've been successfully baited.

PS I do have a sense of humor, I was just catching you out trying to change the subject. Seems to have worked.

It was scarcasm initially. Then I was just being nice to you. Do you want to go back and talk about how much ball Sexton gets from Reddan/O'Leary/Boss?

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

It was scarcasm initially. Then I was just being nice to you. Do you want to go back and talk about how much ball Sexton gets from Reddan/O'Leary/Boss?

Sarcasm just for the sake of it? It was totally irrelevant either way. Thanks for being nice to me. As was said before it's more about quality than quantity of ball provided to either outhalf. The first issue that needs to be addressed is the pack. To be blunt, they've been ****e. No back line on this planet could function behind this pack, maybe the Aussies but even they'd be stretched.

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

Where am I defending Reddan - I'm stating a fact that he actually didn't handle the ball a lot (in comparison to O'Leary against the Boks - 68 times to 34)! That is a huge difference.

You asked why Sexton didn't perform, I said because of Reddan's poor performance. Then you posted a load of stats to say that Sexton got a similar amount of ball for Ireland as he does with Leinster.

If your point was not that Reddan performed to the same level v. SA as he has for Leinster this year then I don't really see where you're coming from.

As I said, it's about quality, not quantity. Reddan's service was shocking, Sexton hadn't a chance. That's the answer to your question. That's why we should start a Stringer/Sexton axis against the ABs.

[Jackass]

Fu*k it, it's world cup time, I need to try things:

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. O'Callaghan
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Boss
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Kearney

16. Best 17. Healy 18. Buckley 19. Toner 20. Leamy 21. Stringer 22. O'Gara 23. G. Murphy

I think that's an electric backline, with super sub RO'G to come on and control the game, or to quicken possesion up, Stringer, or all around x factor in G Murphy to come on.

Massive back row with big carriers, as physical as it gets with excellent bench option in Leamy, Wallace wouldn't even get a phone call, second row strong technical unit, with Toner to come on as lineout specialist if lineout failing, great target to have, would consider it a practical joke if someone suggested Mick O'Driscoll be anywhere near my squad.

Front row is a rubix cube at this stage. Court is a steady scrummager and needs to get a shot at lose, as Healy is a massive effort, but his scrummaging isn't there yet, needs to fight for his place, Horan completely out of the equation, Cronin ahead of Best, Best lost his spot, but great cover and experience to have on bench, Ross is the option at tight for me, with Buckley on the bench. What in gods name Hayes is doing taking up space in the squad is beyond me.

There's your mix of youth and experience, there's mixing it up and putting one of the best strike runners in world rugby right now into the centre, where he has excelled at club level, there's solving the 12 problem with putting one of the most creative playmakers and rock solid defence men in world rugby in there, having the cocky out-half playmaker beside him, having the old head in reserve, a young, exciting back 3, accomodating the biggest talent in the country right now, not having to pick one or the other and benching one of them, having a player who oozes flair and individual brilliance on the bench to be a throw of the dice game changer if required, a massive back row, with the young and best players in there, and excellent sub option, a second row that leads from the front, with O'Connell still to come back into the mix, these guys are the big 3 who should always be in the match day 23, and I've looked for a solution to our scrum problem by mixing it up to find a formula that works, whilst also taking the oppertunity when it's not make or break in a world cup to know what options I have...

There's you go Deccy O'Kidney, that's how you do it lad, please head it! I know I'm an internet goon and not a professional coach, but I'm right, and you're wrong none the less!

TheRiddler

[Jackass] wrote: »

Fu*k it, it's world cup time, I need to try things:

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. O'Callaghan
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Boss
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Kearney

16. Best 17. Healy 18. Buckley 19. Toner 20. Leamy 21. Stringer 22. O'Gara 23. G. Murphy

I think that's an electric backline, with super sub RO'G to come on and control the game, or to quicken possesion up, Stringer, or all around x factor in G Murphy to come on.

Massive back row with big carriers, as physical as it gets with excellent bench option in Leamy, Wallace wouldn't even get a phone call, second row strong technical unit, with Toner to come on as lineout specialist if lineout failing, great target to have, would consider it a practical joke if someone suggested Mick O'Driscoll be anywhere near my squad.

Front row is a rubix cube at this stage. Court is a steady scrummager and needs to get a shot at lose, as Healy is a massive effort, but his scrummaging isn't there yet, needs to fight for his place, Horan completely out of the equation, Cronin ahead of Best, Best lost his spot, but great cover and experience to have on bench, Ross is the option at tight for me, with Buckley on the bench. What in gods name Hayes is doing taking up space in the squad is beyond me.

There's your mix of youth and experience, there's mixing it up and putting one of the best strike runners in world rugby right now into the centre, where he has excelled at club level, there's solving the 12 problem with putting one of the most creative playmakers and rock solid defence men in world rugby in there, having the cocky out-half playmaker beside him, having the old head in reserve, a young, exciting back 3, accomodating the biggest talent in the country right now, not having to pick one or the other and benching one of them, having a player who oozes flair and individual brilliance on the bench to be a throw of the dice game changer if required, a massive back row, with the young and best players in there, and excellent sub option, a second row that leads from the front, with O'Connell still to come back into the mix, these guys are the big 3 who should always be in the match day 23, and I've looked for a solution to our scrum problem by mixing it up to find a formula that works, whilst also taking the oppertunity when it's not make or break in a world cup to know what options I have...

There's you go Deccy O'Kidney, that's how you do it lad, please head it! I know I'm an internet goon and not a professional coach, but I'm right, and you're wrong none the less!

I'd take that but why have you picked Boss over Stringer? Bowe in the centre I'd like to see him give it a go seems like a talented backline is wasted without someone giving good ball

[Jackass]

Well, scrum half is probably the toughest position to pick, because we've got 4 viable options for one spot, with not much between any of them, and none of them particularly amazing, so there's definitely a horses for courses element to it, and form should be a huge factor, but all in all, I went with Boss as I feel quick ball is one thing, but predictability is one of the biggest shackles in looking to attack.

Boss for me is the best sniping, playmaking scrum half in Ireland, and I like that. Yes, it comes at a price of some hesitant passing, some unecesary crabbing and some poor decisions, but I feel what he brings in attack overall is the most valuable of all the scrum-halves we have to pick from.

Stringer is on the bench because he comes on for plan B - rocket passing away from the rook and try and suck players in and we have the speed in the back 3 to expose it - but I think that's much of a simplistic game plan, an Eddie O'Sullivan game plan - and it can be effective, but I think plan A should always be individual skills and making the breaks happen instead of trying to force a defense to become disorganised by quick ball, because the top teams just wont fall for it, or at least not until the late stages of a game and without the chance to adapt to defending that approach all game long. And if plan A isn't working, that's my plan B.

Pretty much every sub named above has a roll to changing the game plan and to be able to make adjustments in areas that aren't functioning, every sub brings a plan B to their area of the pitch. It's so crucial in rugby to be able to completely change your approach mid game and keep the opposition working hard to recognise the changed approach and to adjust to it.

It's why the bench is a critical tactical area, and when guys like O'Sullivan and Kidney don't use it, it makes us a very predictable, one dimensional team, and when you're found out in plan A and have no means or an unwillingness to adopt a plan B, well you're all out of luck.

A big part of that also is embracing player versatility and not being afraid to move BOD to 12 or Bowe to 13, all you're doing is giving yourself options and testing different combinations.

They're not all going to work, and that's ok, but it's better to have multiple positional changes possible and also makes a team harder to prepare for. All teams will focus on Bowe for example, but it's better for there to be uncertainty until the team is announced on whether they'll need to focus that extra defensive effert out wide or in the centre of the park.

I'm all for coaches being adventuroes in selection, because you have to be. And I'm also all for impartial selection. The bigger the pool of players, the more tested tactics and combinations gives you a much greater arsenal of ideas to choose from when the real crunch time arrives. I'm not even apposed to throwing guys like McFadden or Cave or Keatley or Carr or Whitten or any of these guys into the frey for games like Samoa. Cap them, explore options, be prepaired and have all avenues tried and tested so if you ever need contingency you have a lot more information to use when trying to construct an alternative plan.

What if there are freak injuries to Sexton AND O'Gara right before the world cup? Two injured players would throw us into such a mess, we wouldn't have the slighest idea who we could even bring to bench at the world cup to cover them....

All of a sudden you'd have guys like O'Connor or Keatley or Madigan or Humphries coming into the squad, more or less meeting most of the sqaud in an international setting for the first time and being expected to get up to speed and perform at a world cup...madness. And John Hayes is an average out-half at best.

bamboozle

thehighground wrote: »

I was listening to Emmet Byrne (former Leinster & Ireland prop) today on Newstalk. He thought Hayes should start because of his experience.

I think there must be an issue with Leo's fitness (& Earls) for them not to be really involved so far. Leo had a shoulder op I think - not the best way to be getting fit playing the Islanders/Kiwis. I hope Earls is rested if it means he will be fit for the rest of the season.

All of you who are worried about ROG's defense - I wouldn't worry. They usually go for the new kid on the block. I'd say Luke Fitzgerald is still recovering from the last going over he got.

Re ROG & kicking. Last time Ireland met New Zealand - ROG took 3 more kick than Dan Carter.

Here are the stats: http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/103843.html

It should be noted that BOD made one tackle and missed 2. ROG made 6 and missed 2 also. Kearney made 6 & missed 3. Sean Cronin 14/2 & DOC 12/2 put in the most tackles.

Previous AB game in Croke Park stats: Luke at inside centre had a terrible day. David Wallace was top defender that day.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25747.html

one of our best outings against the ABs was in Wellington in '08. Leamy had a fantastic game at 6. Paddy Wallace scored a try. Of course we had Fla & Poc starting. The final score was 21-11 to the ABs.

have you ever played rugby? if so i'm sure you'll appreciate that the 10 channel is the easiest channel to defend in rugby as runners are coming directly at the tackler, the hardest channel to defend is 13 and BOD is without doubt the best defender of this channel in rugby. When a team is being over run in the pack there will be numerous opportunities for the team with the upperhand to create overlaps and leave back rowers roam out the wider channels thus making life extrememly hard for outside backs to defend.
The AB's have consistently targeted (to unfortunate great success) ROG in his 10 channel, we cant afford to have him on the team against the AB's simple as that.

Just re Emmett Byrnes comments, it is clear to the dog on the street that Hayes is a shadow of his former self, but byrne reckons as he has the experience he should be started, how are the younger, better yet more inexperienced props supposed to garner international experience if we continue to stick with former greats?

Username37

thehighground wrote: »

Reddan only got his hands on the ball 34 times (1/31/2 - which isn't a lot really).

(kick/pass/run)

Against Racing:
Sexton: 12/18/5 - 35
Reddan: 3/36/4 - 43
Boss: 0/22/4 - 26

Against Saracens
Sexton: 9/14/2 - 25
Reddan: 3/50/0 - 53
Boss: 3/5/0 -

Against Clermont last season
Sexton: 7/13/5 - 25
Reddan: 3/57/3 - 63

ROG against Clermont in 2008
ROG: 10/18/5 - 33
O'Leary: 5/30/6 - 41

Not a huge difference really in the amount of times he gets the ball between club & country, bearing in mind he isn't subbed at Leinster.

I'm the stat man!

Cpt_Blackbeard

[Jackass] wrote: »

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. O'Callaghan
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Boss
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Kearney

16. Best 17. Healy 18. Buckley 19. Toner 20. Leamy 21. Stringer 22. O'Gara 23. G. Murphy

I think that's an electric backline, with super sub RO'G to come on and control the game, or to quicken possesion up, Stringer, or all around x factor in G Murphy to come on.

Massive back row with big carriers, as physical as it gets with excellent bench option in Leamy, Wallace wouldn't even get a phone call,

That backline is by no means electric, Earls and Bowe are the only two names that can create something going forward though I do want to see BOD at 12. If you want an electric backline you'll replace Kearney with Murphy, as all Kearney can do is catch the high ball; he seriously needs to find some form. Though i do think Fitz is a very goos player, he has no business in an "electric" backline until he learns to score tries, Fionn Carr would suit an "electric" backline much better. It might be one of the best backlines we could put out but by no means the most electric.

SOB missed his chance at overcoming Wallace on Sat. Wallace is by far the bestball carrier we have and you can not talk anout a ball carrying backrow without him. SOB is more of a 6 than 7 and plays more rugby at 6 for Leinster anyway. That backrow is still very strong and is by far the strongest area of the team.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Well, scrum half is probably the toughest position to pick, because we've got 4 viable options for one spot,

That is ridiculous, Stringer is head and shoulders above any other 9 in the country at the moment. I do think he might work best as an impact player against a tiring team, but he cannot be ignored in the form that he is in.

There is no point in me starting an outhalf debate either as both bring different qualities.

thehighground

bamboozle wrote: »

have you ever played rugby? if so i'm sure you'll appreciate that the 10 channel is the easiest channel to defend in rugby as runners are coming directly at the tackler, the hardest channel to defend is 13 and BOD is without doubt the best defender of this channel in rugby. When a team is being over run in the pack there will be numerous opportunities for the team with the upperhand to create overlaps and leave back rowers roam out the wider channels thus making life extrememly hard for outside backs to defend.
The AB's have consistently targeted (to unfortunate great success) ROG in his 10 channel, we cant afford to have him on the team against the AB's simple as that.

Just re Emmett Byrnes comments, it is clear to the dog on the street that Hayes is a shadow of his former self, but byrne reckons as he has the experience he should be started, how are the younger, better yet more inexperienced props supposed to garner international experience if we continue to stick with former greats?

Where did I say that BOD was a bad defender? Or suggest that the 10 channel is more difficult to defend than any other channel?

I was just pointing out that O'Gara wasn't the only one missing quite a lot of tackles. What do you think of Rob Kearney as a defender?

I posted what Emmet Byrne said and his thought process, so no need to repeat it again. I would presume that the inexperienced prop (Buckley) needs gametime to get him up to pace and that is why we are not blooding too many at international level. Its unfortunate that he got injured. With a very young/inexperienced crop of props (Healy, Court & Buckley), getting them gametime is going to be a problem.

Luckycharm

thehighground wrote: »

Where did I say that BOD was a bad defender? Or suggest that the 10 channel is more difficult to defend than any other channel?

I was just pointing out that O'Gara wasn't the only one missing quite a lot of tackles. What do you think of Rob Kearney as a defender?

I posted what Emmet Byrne said and his thought process, so no need to repeat it again. I would presume that the inexperienced prop (Buckley) needs gametime to get him up to pace and that is why we are not blooding too many at international level. Its unfortunate that he got injured. With a very young/inexperienced crop of props (Healy, Court & Buckley), getting them gametime is going to be a problem.

Are you trying to claim ROG is a good defender? Are you one of these Munster fans who puts Munster ahead of their country?

thehighground

Luckycharm wrote: »

Are you trying to claim ROG is a good defender? Are you one of these Munster fans who puts Munster ahead of their country?

Where did I claim that ROG is a good defender? What I did imply was that he isn't the only bad defender in the Ireland team.

I don't see the relevance of your second point. Think of it - if I put Munster before Ireland, I wouldn't want any Munster players playing for Ireland - they only get injured - we were lucky last weekend against Samoa - not so lucky against SA losing Buckley.

amiable

Luckycharm wrote: »

Are you trying to claim ROG is a good defender? Are you one of these Munster fans who puts Munster ahead of their country?

Can i play devils advocate here and ask what's wrong if a person does want to put Munster before Ireland. Each to their own. If that's what makes a person happy so be it.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Where did I claim that ROG is a good defender? What I did imply was that he isn't the only bad defender in the Ireland team.

No, but he's clearly the worst.

ROG has many qualities and there are many things you can use to defend the man, but this is a silly one.


With Ryan potentially (probably?) out, I can only assume the rows will be Toner, MOD and DOC. The only question is who's on the bench.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but he's clearly the worst.

ROG has many qualities and there are many things you can use to defend the man, but this is a silly one..

Considering the 10channel usually has the most traffic on the pitch, ROG is rarely found suspect. ROGs poor defence has always been the go-to insult for anyone with a problem with him; Its ridiculous really. If you want to talk about a player whose defensive frailties cause a team to concede regularly, you need to point your finger at Kearney.

There aren't many 10s in the world who are great defenders (besides Wilkinson of course) Quade-Cooper is one who is light in the tackle yet is still world class. You don't expect a 10 to stop a backrow running at them, you just expect them to not fall off the tackle, ROG may get knocked out but he very rarely falls off a tackle.

Nobody will realise how good ROG was until we need to rely on Sexton week in week out.

trackguy

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering the 10channel usually has the most traffic on the pitch, ROG is rarely found suspect. ROGs poor defence has always been the go-to insult for anyone with a problem with him; Its ridiculous really. If you want to talk about a player whose defensive frailties cause a team to concede regularly, you need to point your finger at Kearney.

There aren't many 10s in the world who are great defenders (besides Wilkinson of course) Quade-Cooper is one who is light in the tackle yet is still world class. You don't expect a 10 to stop a backrow running at them, you just expect them to not fall off the tackle, ROG may get knocked out but he very rarely falls off a tackle.

Nobody will realise how good ROG was until we need to rely on Sexton week in week out.

ROG has been a great player for Ireland - we wouldn't have won the Grand Slam without him. That is not true though. He falls off tackles alot more than most rugby players. I'll give you one thing - Kearney is a poor defender also.

flyingoutside

Luckycharm wrote: »

Are you trying to claim ROG is a good defender? Are you one of these Munster fans who puts Munster ahead of their country?

Are you one of those other provinces fans who brings up this ****e? Liking ROG doesn't mean your from Munster.

jolley123

The Ireland team to play New Zealand will be named on Thursday.

Ireland Squad (32)

Forwards: Tom Court, Cian Healy, Brett Wilkinson, Rory Best, Sean Cronin, John Hayes, Mike Ross, Donncha O’Callaghan, Donnacha Ryan, Mick O’Driscoll, Devin Toner, Stephen Ferris, John Muldoon, David Wallace, Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Denis Leamy

Backs: Eoin Reddan, Peter Stringer, Ronan O’Gara, Jonathan Sexton, Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Gordon D’Arcy, Paddy Wallace, Brian O’Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Tommy Bowe, Gavin Duffy, Geordan Murphy, Rob Kearney

My Guess
1.Healy
2.Cronin
3.Hayes
4.O'Callaghan
5.Toner
6.Ferris
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip

9.Stringer
10.Sexton
11.Fitzgerald
12.Darcy
13.O'Drsicoll
14.Bowe
15.Murphy

Luckycharm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering the 10channel usually has the most traffic on the pitch, ROG is rarely found suspect. ROGs poor defence has always been the go-to insult for anyone with a problem with him; Its ridiculous really. If you want to talk about a player whose defensive frailties cause a team to concede regularly, you need to point your finger at Kearney.

There aren't many 10s in the world who are great defenders (besides Wilkinson of course) Quade-Cooper is one who is light in the tackle yet is still world class. You don't expect a 10 to stop a backrow running at them, you just expect them to not fall off the tackle, ROG may get knocked out but he very rarely falls off a tackle.

Nobody will realise how good ROG was until we need to rely on Sexton week in week out.

The jury is still out on Quade cooper he is great ball in hand but will get targeted now continously in defense- he is worse then ROG there and England targeted him last week to great affect. ONe could say we might have won more Grand slams if we had a diff outhalf given the other players on the team :rolleyes: Agreed Kearney is not a great defender (murphy is worse) or in great form and would have no issue with someone else starting there maybe Luke Fitz. Maybe its just me but I have always put country before province and would just like to see the best players playing for the national team no matter where they are from.

Riskymove

What I'd like to see

1.Healy
2.Cronin
3.Ross
4.O'Callaghan
5.Toner
6.Ferris
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip

9.Stringer
10.Sexton
11.Fitzgerald
12.Darcy
13.O'Drsicoll
14.Bowe
15.Murphy

forlorndonkey

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. O'Callaghan
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip

9. Stringer
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Murphy

16. Best 17. Healy 18. Buckley 19. Toner 20. Leamy 21. Reddan 22. O'Gara 23. Kearney







I think bar 1 or 2 close calls everyone is pretty much on the same page to be honest. The team picks itself as we only have about 18 players who can play at this level. That doesn't stop Kidney making a horlocks of it.

john kinsella

The team i would like to see run onto the pitch is as follows. I am fully aware it will never happen though..

15 Murphy
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Darcy
11 Fitzgerald
10 ROG
9 Stringer
8 Heaslip
7 Wallace
6 Ferris
5 Cullen
4 O'Callaghan
3 Court
2 Cronin
1 Healy

16. Ross
17. Best
18. Buckley
19. Ryan
20. Boss
21. Sexton
22. Earls

JustinDee

forlorndonkey wrote: »

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. O'Callaghan
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip

9. Stringer
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Murphy

16. Best 17. Healy 18. Buckley 19. Toner 20. Leamy 21. Reddan 22. O'Gara 23. Kearney

I think bar 1 or 2 close calls everyone is pretty much on the same page to be honest. The team picks itself as we only have about 18 players who can play at this level. That doesn't stop Kidney making a horlocks of it.

There are only 22 players in the match day squad.

forlorndonkey

JustinDee wrote: »

There are only 22 players in the match day squad.

I copy and pasted the guy at the top of the pages selection and made 3-4 changes as it's so close to what I'd pick.