My Ireland team to face the All Blacks

wixfjord

Username37 wrote: »

Pointing out mistakes O'Gara made is now slagging off ROG?
Why is it that you can point out mistakes Hayes or Brian O'Driscoll made but the very mention that O'Gara made a couple of errors himself then suddenly you have an agenda and are slagging ROG. Quess what, O'Gara made more mistakes yesterday than any other player. He kicked well and took a nice try but he was poor and I don't think I should feel almost intimidated to point that out on this forum(people stating I have an agenda and am slagging ROG in the hope that a mod will ban me or tell me to refrain from posting on this thread)

For me personally the 10 issue is going to be THE biggest factor in how the game will go. It is the most important selection so why should it be ignored to appease people who can't rationally discuss rugby without trying to silence an opinion they disagree with?

First of all, I dont appreciate being told Im trying to get someone banned, so take that out please.

I agree with your point, and ROG was poor yesterday. However, you seem to feel the need to mention it in every single thread, and it ruins the forum, so tone it down a bit there will ye? Ramming your views down peoples throats, no matter that they are correct to the unbiased eye does nothing for either the forum, or the argument.

Also, the agenda I was referring to was of the provincial variety, not the ROG Sexton debate.

Ian_K

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Court
4.DOC 5.Cullen
6.Leamy 8.Heaslip 7.Ferris
9.Stringer 10.Sexton
12.Darcy 13.BOD
11.Earls 15.Murphy 14.Bowe

16.Ross 17.Cronin 18.Toner 19.Wallace 20.Boss 21.ROG 22.Fitz

fullback4glin

Conero wrote: »

To be honest even I was surprised by some of the selections I made, but I generally think it's a solid team given the players we presently have available. Those excluded is largely becasue they are unavailable through injury or were not included in the 34 man squad for the series. So here it is:

15 Rob Kearney
14 Luke Fitzgerald
13 Brian O'Driscoll
12 Gordon D'Arcy
11 Tommy Bowe
10 Jonny Sexton
9 Peter Stringer
1 Cian Healy
2 Rory Best
3 Tom Court
4 Donnacha Ryan
5 Devin Toner
6 Sean O'Brien
7 Stephen Ferris
8 Jamie Heaslip

Subs:
John Hayes
Sean Cronin
Donnacha O'Callaghan
David Wallace
Eoin Reddan
Ronan O'Gara
Keith Earls


If available, I probably would have included O'Connell, Casey, Leo Cullen and Geordan Murphy in the 22. I believe this line up leaves us with a strong and experienced bench to fall back on which is something we missed in the previous games. Any comments much welcomed

On what grounds are you starting Ryan over DOC?

tolosenc

1. Healy; 2. Cronin; 3. Ross; 4. Cullen; 5. Toner; 6. Ferris; 7. O'Brien; 8. Heaslip; 9. Stringer; 10. Sexton; 11. Trimble; 12. O'Driscoll; 13. Bowe; 14. Kearney; 15. Fitzgerald - 16. Best; 17. Court; 18. O'Callaghan; 19. Leamy; 20. Boss; 21. Wallace; 22. Murphy.

fullback4glin

Ian_K wrote: »

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Court
4.DOC 5.Cullen
6.Leamy 8.Heaslip 7.Ferris
9.Stringer 10.Sexton
12.Darcy 13.BOD
11.Earls 15.Murphy 14.Bowe

16.Ross 17.Cronin 18.Toner 19.Wallace 20.Boss 21.ROG 22.Fitz

Luke Fitz has been one of the only decent players in the tests so far, has to start for me.

irishbucsfan

Ian_K wrote: »

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Court
4.DOC 5.Cullen
6.Leamy 8.Heaslip 7.Ferris
9.Stringer 10.Sexton
12.Darcy 13.BOD
11.Earls 15.Murphy 14.Bowe

16.Ross 17.Cronin 18.Toner 19.Wallace 20.Boss 21.ROG 22.Fitz

I agree with your team 100% apart from dropping Fitz...

He's been (along with arguably Ferris) our best player in this series!

I'd actually quite like to see Leamy and Ferris together, but also would have no problem with Wallace starting at 7, he's a class act and showed it against SA

outwest

Username37 wrote: »

Duffy isn't considered due to injury.

Ferris was actually one of the few players who played ok against South Africa.

You don't think Healy is international standard and then you say you want to put Wilkinson there :rolleyes: we might as well see if he is or isnt, might as well see if he up to this level or not.

How could you put Wallace ahead of D'arcy after his performance yesterday? because wallace and sexton might be the 10 12 at the rwc. need to give them game time.

How on earth was O'Driscoll the worst player against South Africa? He never even got the ball Also against Samoa I think you can safely say that John Hayes and Ronan O'Gara were worse.

o gara contributed to the game bod hasnt in either. so bod didnt have a bad game because he didnt get the ball , so if hayes never got the ball he would had a good game, the he never got the ball is a poor attempt to say bod didnt have a poor game did u see what he did when he did havethe ball yesterday. sweet **** all.

fullback4glin

outwest wrote: »

o gara contributed to the game bod hasnt in either. so bod didnt have a bad game because he didnt get the ball , so if hayes never got the ball he would had a good game, the he never got the ball is a poor attempt to say bod didnt have a poor game did u see what he did when he did havethe ball yesterday. sweet **** all.

Stop being so bold :pac:

fullback4glin

tolosenc wrote: »

1. Healy; 2. Cronin; 3. Ross; 4. Cullen; 5. Toner; 6. Ferris; 7. O'Brien; 8. Heaslip; 9. Stringer; 10. Sexton; 11. Trimble; 12. O'Driscoll; 13. Bowe; 14. Kearney; 15. Fitzgerald - 16. Best; 17. Court; 18. O'Callaghan; 19. Leamy; 20. Boss; 21. Wallace; 22. Murphy.

Does Cullen genuinely deserve to start ahead of DOC?

irishbucsfan

outwest wrote: »

id go for

court
croinin
ross
cullen
toner
muldoon
wallace
heaslip

stringer
sexton

wallace
bowe

luke
earls
murphy. or even duffy.

bench. best healy( even tho i think he not international standard yet. would maybe like to see wilkonson) doc sob redden rog duffy( cover fullback and centre)

bod dropped because he either injured or playing poorly, he has been one of our worst players to in the 2 games.

muldoon because leamy and ferris have both been poor when they got there chances. muldoon was good in the summer and did well so far this season.

play this team or any team either way were going to get hammered by new zealand. kidney has ignored the new rules. give me eddie any day over kidney, were been could of lost of 7 game in a row to samoa. were gonig to get destroyed in the 6 nations. england and france in the aviva, on current form we will get destoryed.

I know you're a Connacht fan and all, but Muldoon and Cronin should be absolutely nowhere near the starting 15.

In fairness to Muldoon he doesn't have a hope in hell with Ferris and Leamy there. He hasn't been given a shot. Cronin was shown up against Samoa.

Also, BOD is the best player we have by a mile, and he hasn't been that poor. His poor form have been down to Reddan's abysmal performance against SA and ROG's complete inability to move a backline in any direction against Samoa. Anyway, BOD hasn't been his attacking self for years now, that's not why he's in the team.

bamboozle

fullback4glin wrote: »

Does Cullen genuinely deserve to start ahead of DOC?

if we want parity in the lineout then we'd need a shrewd lineout operator like Cullen or a fit POC to try disect and attack the AB lineout.
but with Kidney in charge i could never see Cullen selected ahead of DOC.

outwest

fullback4glin wrote: »

Does Cullen genuinely deserve to start ahead of DOC?

ya, because cullen is a better player at present

outwest

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I know you're a Connacht fan and all, but Muldoon and Cronin should be absolutely nowhere near the starting 15.

In fairness to Muldoon he doesn't have a hope in hell with Ferris and Leamy there. He hasn't been given a shot. Cronin was shown up against Samoa.

Also, BOD is the best player we have by a mile, and he hasn't been that poor. His poor form have been down to Reddan's abysmal performance against SA and ROG's complete inability to move a backline in any direction against Samoa. Anyway, BOD hasn't been his attacking self for years now, that's not why he's in the team.

croinin did very well with the lineout, if flan is still out then croinin is the best choice.

muldoon did very well in the summer. he got injured. he should get another chance. leamy played very poorly yesterday.

bod was the best player we had. the are numerous players better then bod. heaslip and bowe are ireland best players.

bamboozle

i wont bother giving the team i'd pick as players such as Ross, Cullen, SOB, Casey have zero chance of being selected under Kidney for this game.

i hope Kidney appreciates that we have 2 players who, if selected, will be unmercifully targeted by the AB's, Murphy and ROG, we cant afford for either to start this game as they will be targetted physically and badly exposed.

my best hope for the game based on Kidneys favourites would be
healy best court
doc tonar
leamy heaslip ferris (anyone at 7 but wallace after his limp performance v SA)
stringer sexton
fitz darcy bod bowe
kearney

i just hope that Hayes, MOD and Donnacha Ryan are not involved but would be suprised if Kidney selects 2 in the starting lineup.

Username37

outwest wrote: »

o gara contributed to the game bod hasnt in either. so bod didnt have a bad game because he didnt get the ball , so if hayes never got the ball he would had a good game, the he never got the ball is a poor attempt to say bod didnt have a poor game did u see what he did when he did havethe ball yesterday. sweet **** all.

To be perfectly honest I can never really understand what you write.

I take issue with you saying O'Driscoll was the WORST player in the last two games. Against South Africa I think you can quite easily say that Mick O'Driscoll and Reddan were worse and Wallace did just as little as Brian O'Driscoll. Against Samoa, Hayes was poor because he was atrocious in the scrum nothing to do with whether he got the ball or not. I don't disagree that O'Driscoll was poor against Samoa but he was not the worst player. That most definitely went to Hayes and in my opinion, O'Gara. I would also say the entire backrow performed worse than O'Driscoll as well.

thehighground

bamboozle wrote: »

if we want parity in the lineout then we'd need a shrewd lineout operator like Cullen or a fit POC to try disect and attack the AB lineout.
but with Kidney in charge i could never see Cullen selected ahead of DOC.

I was listening to Emmet Byrne (former Leinster & Ireland prop) today on Newstalk. He thought Hayes should start because of his experience.

I think there must be an issue with Leo's fitness (& Earls) for them not to be really involved so far. Leo had a shoulder op I think - not the best way to be getting fit playing the Islanders/Kiwis. I hope Earls is rested if it means he will be fit for the rest of the season.

All of you who are worried about ROG's defense - I wouldn't worry. They usually go for the new kid on the block. I'd say Luke Fitzgerald is still recovering from the last going over he got.

Re ROG & kicking. Last time Ireland met New Zealand - ROG took 3 more kick than Dan Carter.

Here are the stats: http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/103843.html

It should be noted that BOD made one tackle and missed 2. ROG made 6 and missed 2 also. Kearney made 6 & missed 3. Sean Cronin 14/2 & DOC 12/2 put in the most tackles.

Previous AB game in Croke Park stats: Luke at inside centre had a terrible day. David Wallace was top defender that day.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25747.html

one of our best outings against the ABs was in Wellington in '08. Leamy had a fantastic game at 6. Paddy Wallace scored a try. Of course we had Fla & Poc starting. The final score was 21-11 to the ABs.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

I was listening to Emmet Byrne (former Leinster & Ireland prop) today on Newstalk. He thought Hayes should start because of his experience.

I think there must be an issue with Leo's fitness (& Earls) for them not to be really involved so far. Leo had a shoulder op I think - not the best way to be getting fit playing the Islanders/Kiwis. I hope Earls is rested if it means he will be fit for the rest of the season.

All of you who are worried about ROG's defense - I wouldn't worry. They usually go for the new kid on the block. I'd say Luke Fitzgerald is still recovering from the last going over he got.

Re ROG & kicking. Last time Ireland met New Zealand - ROG took 3 more kick than Dan Carter.

Here are the stats: http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/103843.html

It should be noted that BOD made one tackle and missed 2. ROG made 6 and missed 2 also. Kearney made 6 & missed 3. Sean Cronin 14/2 & DOC 12/2 put in the most tackles.

Previous AB game in Croke Park stats: Luke at inside centre had a terrible day. David Wallace was top defender that day.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25747.html

one of our best outings against the ABs was in Wellington in '08. Leamy had a fantastic game at 6. Paddy Wallace scored a try. Of course we had Fla & Poc starting. The final score was 21-11 to the ABs.

Thanks. Some vitally important stats from 2 years ago. We're lucky none of our players get better or worse, they just stay the same.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

Thanks. Some vitally important stats from 2 years ago. We're lucky none of our players get better or worse, they just stay the same.

Some posters seem very worried about O'Gara's defense so I just want to highlight it that it shouldn't be our biggest worry. Also, some people think ROG just kicks the ball and these stats show that ROG doesn't kick a lot more than Dan Carter, who I would guess everyone thinks is the best outhalf in the world.

Username37

thehighground wrote: »

I was listening to Emmet Byrne (former Leinster & Ireland prop) today on Newstalk. He thought Hayes should start because of his experience.

Evidently Emmet Byrne is wrong. All of Hayes' experience wasn't enough against the might of the Samoan front row now was it?

I think there must be an issue with Leo's fitness (& Earls) for them not to be really involved so far. Leo had a shoulder op I think - not the best way to be getting fit playing the Islanders/Kiwis. I hope Earls is rested if it means he will be fit for the rest of the season.

Cullen is fully fit. Leinster wouldn't play him if his shoulder was dodgy. Earls is still in the Irish 22s in case you didn't notice, Cullen is not even afforded that opportunity. This isn't a coincidence, remember when Cullen was completely dropped as soon as O'Callaghan came back in the 6 Nations? Ireland went from stealing lineouts to getting destroyed in the lineout against Scotland. Kidney for whatever reason, dislikes Cullen. Its a bad joke that O'Driscoll and Ryan are ahead of him just like its a joke that John Hayes is ahead of Mike Ross.

All of you who are worried about ROG's defense - I wouldn't worry. They usually go for the new kid on the block. I'd say Luke Fitzgerald is still recovering from the last going over he got.

More provincial sniping. No suprises there from you. You are like a record player. I've actually lost count how many times you seem to bring that up from 2 years ago when Fitzgerald was 21, inexperienced and playing against Nonu. Now all we need is for you to mention Heaslip's red card again....

Re ROG & kicking. Last time Ireland met New Zealand - ROG took 3 more kick than Dan Carter.

O'Gara has also been consistently run over for tries every time we play New Zealand.

It should be noted that BOD made one tackle and missed 2. ROG made 6 and missed 2 also. Kearney made 6 & missed 3. Sean Cronin 14/2 & DOC 12/2 put in the most tackles.

Still doesn't change the fact that he is consistently ran over for actual tries against New Zealand. I mean how many times do we have to see it?

Previous AB game in Croke Park stats: Luke at inside centre had a terrible day. David Wallace was top defender that day.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25747.html

Oh wow, hes back to Fitzgerald again....and 2 years ago.....from the game where O'Gara missed a tackle and Nonu scored a vital try....

one of our best outings against the ABs was in Wellington in '08. Leamy had a fantastic game at 6. Paddy Wallace scored a try. Of course we had Fla & Poc starting. The final score was 21-11 to the ABs.

And this is relevant how? That was 2 years ago, Leamy isn't even a top class international 6 anymore, O'Connell has been poor since the start of the Lions tour oh yeah and hes injured and Flannery is injured as well.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

Some posters seem very worried about O'Gara's defense so I just want to highlight it that it shouldn't be our biggest worry. Also, some people think ROG just kicks the ball and these stats show that ROG doesn't kick a lot more than Dan Carter, who I would guess everyone thinks is the best outhalf in the world.

It was a different game back then, kicking was more important. Those facts also don't differentiate the type of kick. Was it a chip and chase? Dink over the top? Kick to the corner? In the last few games Carter has even started to do little kick passes, but these go down as kicks. Stats don't always tell the full story. I don't particularly want to talk about ROG or his defense.

tolosenc

fullback4glin wrote: »

Does Cullen genuinely deserve to start ahead of DOC?

Toner makes our own line-out a near sure thing, Cullen is way better than DOC at stealing opposition throws.

Username37

CouchSmart wrote: »

It was a different game back then, kicking was more important. Those facts also don't differentiate the type of kick. Was it a chip and chase? Dink over the top? Kick to the corner? In the last few games Carter has even started to do little kick passes, but these go down as kicks. Stats don't always tell the full story. I don't particularly want to talk about ROG or his defense.

This is what some posters REALLY need to understand.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

It was a different game back then, kicking was more important. Those facts also don't differentiate the type of kick. Was it a chip and chase? Dink over the top? Kick to the corner? In the last few games Carter has even started to do little kick passes, but these go down as kicks. Stats don't always tell the full story. I don't particularly want to talk about ROG or his defense.

Basically any kick is giving away possession.

Are you sure about not making any comments about ROG & his defense. That's your raison d'etre ffs.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

Basically any kick ROG makes is giving away possession.

Are you sure about not making any comments about ROG & his defense. That's your raison d'etre ffs.

Fix your first part.

Why do you want me to talk about ROG so much? I really couldn't care less about him but if you insist, personally I think his tackling technique is poor but it usually doesn't cost the team too much. His decision making in defense is poor and ponderous, which in turn slows up the line speed. In yesterdays game for the Samoan try their outhalf was fumbling the ball and ROG's reaction was to pause, most other players would have rushed up and hammered him.

irishbucsfan

outwest wrote: »

croinin did very well with the lineout, if flan is still out then croinin is the best choice.

Cronin threw well. To Devin Toner, who was being lifted by Hayes, against the most pathetically unorganised lineout we've faced in 10 years. He was fair in the loose, not great, not bad. He was part of a scrum that was absolutely destroyed by what was realistically poor opposition. When himself and Hayes went off the scrum improved drastically.

He's certainly not nearly a better option than Rory Best. Best is the far better option for Ireland.

muldoon did very well in the summer. he got injured. he should get another chance. leamy played very poorly yesterday.

He definitely should get another chance some day. But not while Ferris (who was one of our best players the last two weeks in a row) is fit. And Leamy is ahead of him in the pecking order. Given Leamy's experience and background that's understandable.

bod was the best player we had. the are numerous players better then bod. heaslip and bowe are ireland best players.

Sorry, I meant he's by far the best player we have in his position. Not in general. Dropping him (our captain!) would be ridiculous. Surely you can't honestly think we have anyone who would be even half as good as him!!

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

Fix your first part.

Why do you want me to talk about ROG so much? I really couldn't care less about him but if you insist, personally I think his tackling technique is poor but it usually doesn't cost the team too much. His decision making in defense is poor and ponderous, which in turn slows up the line speed. In yesterdays game for the Samoan try their outhalf was fumbling the ball and ROG's reaction was to pause, most other players would have rushed up and hammered him.

You've had your say on ROG and now you don't want anyone else to have their say! Life is just not that easy I'm afraid;)

CatFromHue

Username37 wrote: »

Evidently Emmet Byrne is wrong. All of Hayes' experience wasn't enough against the might of the Samoan front row now was it?

we gave away alot of penalties at the scrum in the first half yesterday but the vast majority were on tom courts side!

i think hayes gave away one penalty.

the scrum did improve when best and healy came on, and when court moved to the other side. so the argument that when hayes came off the scrum improved is wrong as there were 3 changes made in the front row which finally improved it.

what do people think of luke fitzgeralds performance yesterday?

he missed one catch in the second half on our 22 that kearney would have got and missed a tackle spectacularly on tuilagi in the first half. he did run the ball back a few times but then so has kearney this season.

i dont think he did enough to take kearneys position on yesterdays performance.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

You've had your say on ROG and now you don't want anyone else to have their say! Life is just not that easy I'm afraid;)

What? I never said no one else can have their say. I don't think I've mentioned ROG until you asked me about him. Don't really know what your agenda is. :cool:

toomevara

Catch yerselves on lads.

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

Some posters seem very worried about O'Gara's defense so I just want to highlight it that it shouldn't be our biggest worry. Also, some people think ROG just kicks the ball and these stats show that ROG doesn't kick a lot more than Dan Carter, who I would guess everyone thinks is the best outhalf in the world.

Whatever about the stats. Everyone knows O'Gara's defense is pathetic.


Saying that, his defense shouldn't be what we base our selection of 10 on. It should be the fact that he is completely unable to run a back line and can only kick the ball. Which against NZ would be a disaster. He's a good player, but his game plan (we all know what that is, the only style of game play he's competent with at this level) would lead us to disaster against the ABs.

Now you can break out your anorak and explain to me that O'Gara has thrown 77 passes in his last 5 games, and that Sexton has only thrown 69.5. And that O'Gara has thrown 11 passes backwards off his left hand, so therefore he must be a better backline operator than Sexton. The truth is that everyone knows thats rubbish. We didn't play a kicking game against Samoa because it suited the team, we played because it suited ROG. And it was the reason we embarrassed ourselves. This isn't American Football, the stats are meaningless.