Ireland in Preliminary Bailout Talks

brianthebard

OPENROAD wrote: »

Are we not talking about the bondholders here and whether we should let them all get stuffed.

My understanding is that you have several types, those that were a more risky bonds and those that were a lot more secure, I am sure that the Labour party said that they would guarantee most of the bondholders, but that those that were less secure, they would consider letting go, as said I'm open to correction here and they have been quiet on the matter for a bit now.

I don't know when Labour said they would guarantee bondholders, do you have a link?

amacachi wrote: »

They'll bounce back though. Dermot Ahern will most likely still top the poll here next time despite not attending meetings to save the hospital in Dundalk (not something that's particularly close to my heart but does seem to matter to a lot of others) and generally being a prick. He's done very little for the area and is just a ladder climber. I don't like parochial politics but at least there's a twisted logic for voting for JHR and the like, I cannot see why anyone would ever vote for Dermot Ahern.

I know what you mean, sometimes one can only stand by and watch the FF vampyric machine in action.

OPENROAD

ligertigon wrote: »

You being facetious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi
I'm not in favour of any bail-out, just pointing out that a lot of people seem to be against cuts or tax increases without offering realistic alternatives.

We lost part of our independence when we decided to inflate a bubble using foreign money and continued to take it when the bubble burst.

Who is "we"

I didn't


When the original post said "we" I assume he was referring to the country and not individuals.

K-9

OPENROAD wrote: »

Why hasn't their been a panic run yet then? Lets be honest, we can't borrow in the markets at the current rate, now if the govt push the budget through, rates should fall.

Maybe after the budget. They'll go back up again in the New Year when everybody cops taking €6 Billion out of the economy will affect growth!

As for sovereignty! LOL

We have no sovereignty now, never mind the IMF/EU fund!

Sovereignty is a noble but out dated concept, ask Iceland.

Cavehill Red

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe after the budget. They'll go back up again in the New Year when everybody cops taking €6 Billion out of the economy will affect growth!

As for sovereignty! LOL

We have no sovereignty now, never mind the IMF/EU fund!

Sovereignty is a noble but out dated concept, ask Iceland.

Who remain sovereign, and who refused to guarantee banking debts, that Iceland?
They took a big hit but they're still independent and now in economic recovery.

Politbureau

skelliser wrote: »

Just remember guys in the polling both in the upcoming election the party that has lead us to this point.

Actually pause and think a little before you make your mark.

Reflect on 13 years of
arrogance,
hypocracy,
unvouched expenses,
"dig outs",
misdirection,
no tax clearance certs,
self-entitlement,
golden circles,
chauffer driven mercedes benz's,
gov. jets,
2 referenda repeated TWICE,
carbon tax,
48+ hours on a trolley,
private hospitals,
m50 toll bridge,
fishing industry destroyed,
400m euro on contaimiated glass bottle factory,
450,000 people on the dole,
the "cheapest bank bailout" turning out to be the worst bailout i the history of the modern world!
the list goes on....


and now the final nail, needing to be bailed out!


The legacy of Fianna Fail

Add 'amnestys for tax defaulters'.

K-9

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Who remain sovereign, and who refused to guarantee banking debts, that Iceland?
They took a big hit but they're still independent and now in economic recovery.

Economic recovery but people are suffering hugely. Wage cuts, devalued currency, massive mortgage arrears etc.

Iceland aren't sovereign, not in the way some define sovereignty. We lost that back in the 70's.

We brought in severe cuts in 1987, were we sovereign then?

OPENROAD

brianthebard wrote: »

I don't know when Labour said they would guarantee bondholders, do you have a link?

.

Yes I think you are correct, the Labour party seem to suggest that they would negotiate with the bondholders as opposed to the guarantee, but in that case are they not letting them go, rather reaching some agreement with them?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/emmet-oliver-defaulting-on-anglo-debts-now-on-agenda-2341142.html

ligertigon

OPENROAD wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi
I'm not in favour of any bail-out, just pointing out that a lot of people seem to be against cuts or tax increases without offering realistic alternatives.

We lost part of our independence when we decided to inflate a bubble using foreign money and continued to take it when the bubble burst.

Who is "we"

I didn't


When the original post said "we" I assume he was referring to the country and not individuals.

No problem openroad, just that there is a sizeable group that never bought property, never got loans, did paid taxes, never sold property for profit etc, and never made any profit either directly or indirectly from the binge years.

So the "we" word is not accurate. However, we are all in the same boat now.

Cavehill Red

K-9 wrote: »

Economic recovery but people are suffering hugely. Wage cuts, devalued currency, massive mortgage arrears etc.

Iceland aren't sovereign, not in the way some define sovereignty. We lost that back in the 70's.

We brought in severe cuts in 1987, were we sovereign then?

Arguably we weren't because we had already pooled some of our sovereignty within the then EEC.
Iceland are sovereign, as much as anyone is in a globalised world. We're rapidly becoming other people's bitchez though. And we have the wage cuts and mortgage arrears too. And we aren't in recovery.

K-9

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Arguably we weren't because we had already pooled some of our sovereignty within the then EEC.
Iceland are sovereign, as much as anyone is in a globalised world. We're rapidly becoming other people's bitchez though. And we have the wage cuts and mortgage arrears too. And we aren't in recovery.

No, we had sovereignty until about the late 70's, when we started borrowing to fund expenditure. We were in the EEC then.

It's like when you are young, free and single with no debt, you can largely do what you want. Once you get a wife/partner, children and a mortgage, you lose that sovereignty!

We aren't slaves to the EU/IMF, we are slaves to debt which has to be paid at some stage.

Unfortunately we are far worse than 87. At least we had 65/70% tax rates to cut then!

Cavehill Red

K-9 wrote: »

No, we had sovereignty until about the late 70's, when we started borrowing to fund expenditure. We were in the EEC then.

It's like when you are young, free and single with no debt, you can largely do what you want. Once you get a wife/partner, children and a mortgage, you lose that sovereignty!

We aren't slaves to the EU/IMF, we are slaves to debt which has to be paid at some stage.

Unfortunately we are far worse than 87. At least we had 65/70% tax rates to cut then!

That's counterintuitive. Surely you would raise taxes to pay off debt, not cut them?
(Of course the effect of tax hikes in driving down economic activity is one adverse side-effect.)

LarrytheLantern

Herodotus wrote: »

The following was just published on the BBC's website at 3pm.




There's no mention of it over on RTE.ie...

Eitherway I'm glad to be honest. The farce and spin that has continued over recent years is now over.

Why? the powers that be - both Irish policticians' and mardarins' - complete incompetence and destruction of the public finances is now clear for all to see.

Let no one blame the IMF / EU / Germans or any other 'foreigner' for the suffering already inflicted and that which will continue to be inflicted on Irish citizens in the months and years to come.

It was Irish politicians, Irish policymakers, Irish regulators and other Irish citizens who are to blame for the state of the nation. Let no one deride that fact.

That is Irish sovereignty.

I hang my head in shame at the inevitable bailout from Europe, but hope that Irish society, its political system and governement learns a harsh and much needed lesson.

We all in this together.

i agree with almost everything u said except i do not & will not hang my head in shame, for i NEVER voted for this FF shower of Gombeen Gangsters.

can someone tell me this? since the foundation of this banana republic, how any years have they (FF) been in power? my guess is probably 80% of the time.:o

K-9

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That's counterintuitive. Surely you would raise taxes to pay off debt, not cut them?
(Of course the effect of tax hikes in driving down economic activity is one adverse side-effect.)

Completely agreed. The problem in the 80's was huge rates of Income Taxes, it was upon 70/80% when you added PRSI in. Always wondered why my Dad who was a Guard bothered doing overtime, but there was a different ethic then.

Cutting taxes became a religion to the point that FF were the most prudent party in the last election on taxes!

Taxes should never have become this low. I thought no tax or PRSI on minimum wage was brilliant 3 years ago, boy, do I know I was wrong now! Compare us to NI and the difference is amazing. NIC of 10% after £97 or so.

The problem is, we are trying to raise taxes in a recession and we know where that got us in the 80's.

There aren't many other options but there is a lack of a stimulus (Oeeerrr Matron) in the solutions. Reducing taxes was the stimulus in 87. We seem to have no stimulus now and reducing taxes isn't an option anyway, with such a low tax base.

mike65

"I for one, welcome..." etc!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm-q8F4t74g