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Ireland in Preliminary Bailout Talks

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    #62
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Excuse my ignorance on the finer details of some of the matters under discussion, but what exactly is the problem with having "Preliminary" discussion with either the EU or IMF on the terms of a bailout.

    Surely it would be better to know what the T&C of plans B & C are should plan A not be successful. If these reports are true is it just a case from the government perspective of "Prepare for the worse case, while working for the best case scenario"

    From a personal view I'm not too upset at the thoughts of either IMF or EU intervention. It might just bring an end to the civil war politics and "jobs for the boys culture" that have been bad for this country. If on the other hand we work our way out of the current problems without a bailout at least we will have PS reform and hopefully people will not be foolish enough to allow this to happen again. Maybe I'm an optimist but then again maybe there is way to much doom and gloom.


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    #63
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance on the finer details of some of the matters under discussion, but what exactly is the problem with having "Preliminary" discussion with either the EU or IMF on the terms of a bailout.

    Its all about market confidence, which is the term given to the groupthink of men (and some women) who bet on things in a stock market, so its not called gambling. Discussion with the EU or IMF suggests conditions here are deteriorating, which spooks the market even more and so they bet against Ireland making a recovery, which further pushes us towards that conclusion.


    From a personal view I'm not too upset at the thoughts of either IMF or EU intervention. It might just bring an end to the civil war politics and "jobs for the boys culture" that have been bad for this country. If on the other hand we work out way out of the current problems without a bailout at least we will have PS reform and hopefully people will not be foolish enough to allow this to happen again. Maybe I'm an optimist but then again maybe there is way to much doom and gloom.

    Any civil war politics will be ten times worse from now on, it will be the equivalent of an economic civil war.


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    #64
    whitesands
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭whitesands


    PCros wrote: »
    The managing director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), Dominique Strauss-Kahn, told reporters at the Apec summit in Yokohama on Saturday that his organisation had not been asked for aid.

    "So far I have not had a request, and I think Ireland can manage well," he said.

    That just contradicts the BBCs article which is full of shíte.
    No, it means you don't know what your talking about, the EU isn't the IMF.


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    #65
    Setun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Setun


    Tusky wrote: »
    Are any economists or politicans commenting on this on twitter ?
    Well Brian Cowen just tweeted: "Right so, I'm off. Bye Ireland!"

    :rolleyes:


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    #66
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,071 ✭✭✭PCros


    whitesands wrote: »
    No, it means you don't know what your talking about, the EU isn't the IMF.

    I admitted that....read the whole thread first as that was pointed out already.

    :rolleyes:


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    #67
    Steyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    I for one welcome our European Overlords, the roads/infrastructure will be done by monday.


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    #68
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,071 ✭✭✭PCros


    Steyr wrote: »
    I for one welcome our European Overlords, the roads/infrastructure will be done by monday.

    Yes but we will be driving on the wrong side then!!:D


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    #69
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    brianthebard wrote: »
    IMO any civil war politics will be ten times worse from now on, it will be the equivalent of an economic civil war.

    Fixed that for you :) Time will tell if you're correct.


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    #70
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    Fixed that for you :) Time will tell if you're correct.

    Well think logically about it, if the country goes bankrupt do you think FF and FG are going to fix their civil war differences or is the bankruptcy going to become the new civil war division between the two parties? Insults across the dail about blueshirts and IRA will be replaced with 'who bankrupted the country' etc etc.


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    #71
    CamperMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭CamperMan


    jumpguy wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11750676

    (With a rather flattering picture of Brian Cowen, might I add).

    So it looks like what was feared is now looming, looking more like an inevitability rather than a worst-case scenario. We're feeked altogeher, so we are.

    Interesting to see how this will pan out, who would've thought 5 years ago we would be in this situation?


    Ye.. why is this c unt smiling away knowing that he has fecked up this country?


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    #72
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    CamperMan wrote: »
    Ye.. why is this c unt smiling away knowing that he has fecked up this country?
    It's only a picture man, all Cowen's pictures don't change with the economic climate.


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    #73
    RoundyMooney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    jumpguy wrote: »
    It's only a picture man, all Cowen's pictures don't change with the economic climate.

    In an attic somewhere, there's a painting of our Taoiseach, slim, sober, and competent.


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    #74
    Herodotus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Herodotus


    I suggest you all pop over to the ft.com and look at the following headline...

    Eurozone in talks on Ireland bail out

    Discussions expected to intensify on Sunday


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    #75
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Herodotus wrote: »
    I suggest you all pop over to the ft.com and look at the following headline...

    Eurozone in talks on Ireland bail out

    Discussions expected to intensify on Sunday

    Is that the correct link? How can that be the main story on FT.. it's only one sentence long! Is the same thing being said elsewhere?


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    #76
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,071 ✭✭✭PCros


    Herodotus wrote: »
    I suggest you all pop over to the ft.com and look at the following headline...

    Eurozone in talks on Ireland bail out

    Discussions expected to intensify on Sunday

    That article is 6 hours old!:rolleyes:


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    #77
    dave1982
    Registered Users Posts: 4,604 ✭✭✭dave1982


    Daddio wrote: »
    Well Brian Cowen just tweeted: "Right so, I'm off. Bye Ireland!"

    :rolleyes:

    HAHA that **** could actually happen

    On topic
    he Department of Finance is today rejecting claims that Ireland is already in talks with Europe to access the bailout fund.

    Yesterday another report, also claiming the country was about to access the European fund, was denied by the Taoiseach.

    The report by the Reuters news agency claimed Ireland was already in talks with the European Union about how to apply for emergency funding.

    The Taoiseach quickly rejected the claim, saying there had been no application whatever.

    Today the BBC is carrying reports on its bulletins that Ireland is in early talks to get €60bn-€80bn from the European Financial Stability Fund.

    But a spokesman for Finance Minister Brian Lenihan says no talks, preliminary or otherwise are taking place, adding the country is funded up to the middle of next year.

    Earlier today the head of the IMF, Dominique Strauss Kahn, said that Ireland can manage well.


    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-denies-reports-of-bailout-discussions-with-eu-481724.html#ixzz15CdHhegx


    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-denies-reports-of-bailout-discussions-with-eu-481724.html


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    #78
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Some people will accuse me of conspiracy theories here, but there are a lot of people trading in the market that want to see Ireland fail. In the good old days you bet on a company growing and thus earning money on those stocks, but now its possible to bet on the opposite and many people (even some on this site) have been doing just that in relation to Ireland's economic condition.


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    #79
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Some people will accuse me of conspiracy theories here, but there are a lot of people trading in the market that want to see Ireland fail. In the good old days you bet on a company growing and thus earning money on those stocks, but now its possible to bet on the opposite and many people (even some on this site) have been doing just that in relation to Ireland's economic condition.
    international speculators would love to pull the plug on us. Look at what happened to BP in the US, they couldn't get short term cash because of the media hype about them going bankrupt , next quarter they made $1.85Bn

    I've heard idle speculation about bad news leaked before our bonds went past the 7% - easy money, couple of scare stories and you can double your money

    again the story is about the few ignoring the many out of greed, it's not like the extra money will change their lifestyle much anyway.


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    #80
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    BraziliaNZ wrote: »
    Let's allow a group of corrupt politicians to allow a generation to be destroyed!
    It's not the first time that this has happened here


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    #81
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Some people will accuse me of conspiracy theories here, but there are a lot of people trading in the market that want to see Ireland fail. In the good old days you bet on a company growing and thus earning money on those stocks, but now its possible to bet on the opposite and many people (even some on this site) have been doing just that in relation to Ireland's economic condition.

    It really is ridiculous that traders have so much power over peoples lives.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #82
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    K-9 wrote: »
    It really is ridiculous that traders have so much power over peoples lives.

    They didn't get us into the position that we are currently in.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    You call that a bailout, this is a bailout!



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfwmnRJznU


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    #84
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    They didn't get us into the position that we are currently in.

    True but some of these traders would have bought bonds here 3/4 years ago when they should have seen what was coming.

    It's like NAMA or the banking crisis in a way. Seems capitalism is fine when you are making money but socialism is better when losing it!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #85
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    K-9 wrote: »
    True but some of these traders would have bought bonds here 3/4 years ago when they should have seen what was coming.

    It's like NAMA or the banking crisis in a way. Seems capitalism is fine when you are making money but socialism is better when losing it!

    Different levels of bondholders though, you have to take that into account.

    Our woes are not down to them.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »
    True but some of these traders would have bought bonds here 3/4 years ago when they should have seen what was coming.

    It's like NAMA or the banking crisis in a way. Seems capitalism is fine when you are making money but socialism is better when losing it!

    +1

    It's a bit like coing to a casino and demanding that the house lays off all your bets and forcing the other players to stump up and cover your losses. It would never happen of course in gambling circles so why is it allowed in finance!


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    #87
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    Deleted User wrote: »
    +1

    It's a bit like coing to a casino and demanding that the house lays off all your bets and forcing the other players to stump up and cover your losses. It would never happen of course in gambling circles so who ys it allowed in finance!

    Some of the bonds were more risky, I agree, others are secure,you can't tell them to take a running jump, how will we finance ourselves not just now but in the future.

    I really hope people are not starting to look outside for someone to blame for our woes.


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    #88
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    They didn't get us into the position that we are currently in.

    What? Who do you think was bundling the bad debts and selling them on for a profit?


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    #89
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    Different levels of bondholders though, you have to take that into account.

    Our woes are not down to them.

    It's a bit like blaming the banker for lending you a Million for a house!

    Both parties to the transaction should share the blame.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #90
    Politbureau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Politbureau


    jumpguy wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11750676

    (With a rather flattering picture of Brian Cowen, might I add).

    So it looks like what was feared is now looming, looking more like an inevitability rather than a worst-case scenario. We're feeked altogeher, so we are.

    Interesting to see how this will pan out, who would've thought 5 years ago we would be in this situation?

    Guys,
    I have savings certificates with An Post as part of my pension plan which I have built on over the years. Would it be adviseable for me to withdraw them as I fear all commitments to pay interest (or safeguard the capital sum) my well be off if we have to borrow from the IMF? BBC say tonight that the sum Ireland wishes to borrow is in the 50-80bn mark. Of course it could be much larger and we won't know until they decide to tell us.

    I'm really worried as my partner is permanently disabled and we have to maintain our hard earned and saved finances to see us through tough times ahead. An Post require seven days notice to withdraw. If I dither we could lose everything!


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    #91
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    K-9 wrote: »
    It's a bit like blaming the banker for lending you a Million for a house!

    Both parties to the transaction should share the blame.

    That was what I was really driving at, it just seems to me that we are starting to shift the blame more towards the lender recently.


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