PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

mikemac

neilster wrote: »

Bengals- Marvin Lewis contract will not be renewed

It may happen but all the same, I think it's harsh if Lewis is let go.

neilster

frostie500 wrote: »

It isnt next year that the salery number for Tebow becomes too much for the Broncos to bear. It's a few years down the line (usually year 4 or 5 on a rookie contract). Id be very surprised if Tebow's number for next year is more than 1.5 guaranteed cash. His deal can rise to 33 million but that is tied into incentives worth somewhere in the region of 10 million if i remember the details right(playing time, playoff season etc)

The Broncos can afford to keep him for a few years before making judgements on him. I remember the Titans had a similar issue with Vince Young before last season. His cap number was manageable last season but it was the projected number for THIS year that made it crucial that they find out exactly where they stood with VY last year. That was why he got the start after their miserable opening to the year.

Rookie contacts, like all in the NFL, are not the same salary for each year. They rise in value the further into the contract you get and it is only the guaranteed money that really matters. Look at the majority of contracts and you see that they are laden with incentives related to playing time and performance(examples being % of snaps played and yards/touchdowns)

i know the devil is in the detail

here is his deal

TEBOW

Base salary
2010: $1.295 million (fully guaranteed)
2011: $1.618.75 million (fully guaranteed)
2012: $1.942.5 million (fully guaranteed)
2013: $2.266.75 million (fully guaranteed)
2014: $2.590.5 million ($567,500 guaranteed)

Advance/Signing bonus

$975,000 on Friday (salary reduced to $325,000)

$6.275 million due 29 days after start of 2011 league year. Typically season starts March 1, but it's written this way in case work stoppage delays start of season. (Salaries from 2011-14 reduced to offset advance)

One-time playing time bonus (contractually considered likely to be earned)
Tebow collects $1.537.5 million if he plays 35 percent of the offensive snaps in 2010, or 45 percent of the snaps in any of the seasons 2011-14. The bonus rolls over from year to year until Tebow reaches the playing-time threshold, and expires the first time he hits it.

Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)
Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Max value (contractually considered unlikely to earn)
The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP.

Base salary
2010: $1.295 million (fully guaranteed)
2011: $1.618.75 million (fully guaranteed)
2012: $1.942.5 million (fully guaranteed)
2013: $2.266.75 million (fully guaranteed)
2014: $2.590.5 million ($567,500 guaranteed)

Advance/Signing bonus

$975,000 on Friday (salary reduced to $325,000)

$6.275 million due 29 days after start of 2011 league year. Typically season starts March 1, but it's written this way in case work stoppage delays start of season. (Salaries from 2011-14 reduced to offset advance)

One-time playing time bonus (contractually considered likely to be earned)
Tebow collects $1.537.5 million if he plays 35 percent of the offensive snaps in 2010, or 45 percent of the snaps in any of the seasons 2011-14. The bonus rolls over from year to year until Tebow reaches the playing-time threshold, and expires the first time he hits it.

Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)
Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Max value (contractually considered unlikely to earn)
The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP



this means there is a $6m dollar decision to be made on 30/3/2011, if they anointed him starter in 2011 and he plays 45% of snaps , thats another $1.5m along with contract doubling to $22m across first 3 years if he plays 55% of snaps in '11 & '12...this will all focus minds



ORTON



Aug 19 11:01p by Ben Golliver
According to ESPN, the numbers are in on the contract extension for Denver Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton.

A team source told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter that Orton’s extension is a one-year, $9 million contract, with $5.5 million guaranteed.


and QUINN

Quinn, who still has two seasons remaining on his original five-year, $9.2 million contract, is a relative bargain in base salary for the Broncos at the moment. He is scheduled to earn $700,000 in base salary in both the 2010 and 2011 seasons. However, that price goes up significantly if he becomes the starter.
If Quinn plays 70 percent of the Broncos' snaps on offense in the upcoming season, he has a $5.9 million escalator bonus.

i cant see the Broncos giving Tebow $6m to sit behind Orton long-term , maybe they would renegotiate possibly

When you read the clippings , its obvious that Orton was viewed as a makeweight in the Cutler deal was given a $2m tender and even after playing reasonably McDaniels traded for Quinn . The Tebow draft re-inforces this but what if McDaniels favourites dont deliver or what if McDaniels isnt there anyhow

Also Orton will have qualified for most of his escalators so he will have earned close to the top end of the $9m

neilster

feelingstressed wrote: »

It may happen but all the same, I think it's harsh if Lewis is let go.

id agree ...after making the playoffs last year with a QB playing badly ...Marvin took the risk of coaching out his contract in his last year without being signed ...Owner didnt resign him either but Marvin didnt force the issue and apart from TO ..who has rewarded a decent man for that

The same goes for John Fox and Jack Del Rio ...they are in their jobs a long time and the owners may move on ....and owners possibly cos of the absence of a CBA agreement are not resigning

neilster

feelingstressed wrote: »

It may happen but all the same, I think it's harsh if Lewis is let go.

Youd have to say if you were the owner of carolina/jags /bengals

and you had Cowher and Gruden chomping at the bit and also


Brian Billick , Jim Harbaugh, Rob Ryan , Ron Rivera , Leslie Frazier , Percy Frewell all nosing around ...an owner could be tempted

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

Well Cassell is the guy McDaniels wanted. Indirectly, he's the reason Orton is a Bronco, so it's not that far off the mark.

Even though they were both linked to the same deal I think there's a difference between a guy who started at college and thrives at his second team and one who doesn't start at college and spends years practicing with and backing-up the Patriots only to have a good season when he's called upon. No one is saying Orton's an elite QB, just that he's most certainly proving to be a good and effective one and at another team it'd be as much their fault if they couldn't wring good play out of him as it would Orton's.

Chardee MacDennis

spiralism wrote: »

He's since gone back to 2nd string, according to mcdaniels he got demoted for that game because qb trick option plays were not going to get us anywhere vs the colts (which was idiotic as our redzone offence killed us that game and tebow coulda been a breath of fresh air in the RZ)

hmmm strange that the broncos website would completely disagree with you...

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/depth-chart.html

ReacherCreature

Thread giving me a headache. :P

themont85

BastardPrince wrote: »

hmmm strange that the broncos website would completely disagree with you...

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/depth-chart.html

The one on NFL.com has Tebow as second string...

Lads there was plenty of talk that maybe Cassell was the new Brady and would supplant him as the QB as he was younger and had proven himself to be adept (as Brady did with Blesdoe). Now it was really laughable but there was still talk of it.

Cassell after a few games slotted into the Patriots offense and looked quality by season's end.

Kyle Orton for his first several years as a QB looked like an extremely average player. I still stand by my comment that the system has made him into the Pro Bowler he will inevitably be, likewise with Brandon Llyold.

ReacherCreature

themont85 wrote: »

Cassell after a few games slotted into the Patriots offense and looked quality by season's end.

Not picking a fight just thinking about Cassel. The reason he looked quality was because of that lineup he walked into. Moss, Welker, that offensive line, the running backs. Cassel was a grand quarterback but he was hyped as a pro-bowler at the end of it. When he got that big contract with Kansas, it was laughable IMO.

themont85

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Not picking a fight just thinking about Cassel. The reason he looked quality was because of that lineup he walked into. Moss, Welker, that offensive line, the running backs. Cassel was a grand quarterback but he was hyped as a pro-bowler at the end of it. When he got that big contract with Kansas, it was laughable IMO.

Look at all those QBs who have tried with the Cardinals with Larry Fitzgerald there and they fail.

spiralism

BastardPrince wrote: »

hmmm strange that the broncos website would completely disagree with you...

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/depth-chart.html

NFL website has it differently, and most importantly he's been active as 2nd QB every gameday since week 5, with him getting playing time the last 3 weeks. He's basically 2nd string QB.

neilster wrote: »

Thats interesting You say that....

for these reasons i think these jobs may be up for grabs

Vikes- Chilly on very short leash with an attractive coach in house in Frazier
Cowboys- garrett may only get 8 games
49ers- I dont think Singletary will survive
Carolina- Fox contract is up and wont be renewed
Jacksonville- Garrard may save Del Rio but its 50:50
Chargers - Norv may not survive
Bears - i think 2010 is it for Lovie
Bengals- Marvin Lewis contract will not be renewed

Of these i think Gruden would rank in order

Boys - if he got assurance like Parcells got, big market ..big team ...big pay ...talented roster ...Gruden is brash suits him to a tee
Vikes - Most Championship ready in a good market ...QB situation uncertain (Vick anyone)
Chicago - No 3 market ...would have autonomy ....has Cutler and thinks he could tame him
Denver - I think Gruden might suit Denver
Chargers - Has Rivers but AJ Smith is an ahole
49ers - Lots of issues but Yorks as owners would let him get on with it ..again will ahve to draft /bring in QB if Troy Smith doesnt get it done
Bengals - Mike Brown is nice owner ....wont have Palmer in 2011
Jags - again this one may not occur ...small market ..has done that already with Tampa ....
Carolina - disastrous QB situation..small market ...will have no 1 pick which i would use on Andrew Luck esquire


Gruden would have advantages in Denver ...he will have 3 years to get it right so as long as he stabilised things like Shanahan (DC) he would have more rope to work on Tebow ...but i think Orton is a good starter so doesnt make sense to arrive like a missionary championing the youngster ...This is why his landing spot might be a smaller team with a restrucured deal where he would get to develop

a Carolina/Jags /kansas where he would be QB2 and develop ...it would be the best thing for Tim Tebow

I've voiced my opinion on Gruden going to the Boys in other threads, he may well go there but i don't know how he would feel about Jerry constantly meddling and all the pressure there

As for the Vikes, i think it'll be Frazier getting promoted

Chicago...hard to say though, id be most worried about there, but Cutler is a coach killer and i don't know how Gruden would feel about taking his former assistant's job..may be a bit of a mad choice here but could it be Wade Phillips getting the nod?

I think we could be a good landing spot for Gruden, but whether or not it'll happen remains to be seen...

themont85

No chance Wade Phillips goes to the Bears. He runs a 3-4 and the Bears have 4-3 Tampa personnel. If Lovie Smith gets fired (and it won't be because of Jay Cutler), they will go offensive.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

The one on NFL.com has Tebow as second string...

Lads there was plenty of talk that maybe Cassell was the new Brady and would supplant him as the QB as he was younger and had proven himself to be adept (as Brady did with Blesdoe). Now it was really laughable but there was still talk of it.

Cassell after a few games slotted into the Patriots offense and looked quality by season's end.

Kyle Orton for his first several years as a QB looked like an extremely average player. I still stand by my comment that the system has made him into the Pro Bowler he will inevitably be, likewise with Brandon Llyold.

Extremely average? Very harsh. He was in a poor offense team with no weapons.


Kyle Orton stats for 2008:
2,972 yards 18TD 11Ints 79.6 QB rating

Matt Cassell's 2008 stats:
3,693 yards 21 TDs 11 Ints and 89 rating.


Hardly a huge gap in quality when you compare the quality of each teams offense. Then you look at Cassell's individual games and it's really not very good. He went 6 games without throwing for one touch down. Of the 11 wins the Patriots had only 3 where won against teams who finished with a winning record and the win against the Cardinals in the second last of the season was played in the freezing weather of Foxboro and a dead rubber for the Cards. Orton might be benefitting from the system but he was always a much better QB then Cassell.

ReacherCreature

themont85 wrote: »

Look at all those QBs who have tried with the Cardinals with Larry Fitzgerald there and they fail.

All? I wouldn't say all. You make it sound like a huge amount. Just been Kurt Warner, Derek Anderson, Matt Lienart, Josh McCown, John Navarre, Shaun King.

If you discount the not-so-good players: Navarre, King, Lienart, Anderson. Possibly McCown although I don't know. Warner's the best of the lot. QB quality in Arizona since 2004 hasn't been great at all in the broader perspective.

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Extremely average? Very harsh. He was in a poor offense team with no weapons.


Kyle Orton stats for 2008:
2,972 yards 18TD 11Ints 79.6 QB rating

Matt Cassell's 2008 stats:
3,693 yards 21 TDs 11 Ints and 89 rating.


Hardly a huge gap in quality when you compare the quality of each teams offense. Then you look at Cassell's individual games and it's really not very good. He went 6 games without throwing for one touch down. Of the 11 wins the Patriots had only 3 where won against teams who finished with a winning record and the win against the Cardinals in the second last of the season was played in the freezing weather of Foxboro and a dead rubber for the Cards. Orton might be benefitting from the system but he was always a much better QB then Cassell.

One of his weapons in Chicago was a terrible Brandon Lloyd (who was on the field a lot) who is now playing like a pro bowler and who's AYPC is a good deal higher than it was when he was been thrown to by the same QB two years previous.

He was extremely average in Chicago. They used him wrong yes but he routinely missed deep balls. He was a game manager who didn't throw the wild pick. Obviously the Pats had better weapons but they also have a better system.

Its not just the weapons he had. Cassel didn't start a game for how many years when he got into the starting lineup and still put up very good stats overall. The system being QB friendly is just my opinion.

As a fan of a team (Bills) which certainly needs a new QB I would be quite happy with Orton as he brings us from dreadful at QB to good. Do I see him as a long term Franchise QB, no tbh.

tallaghtoutlaws

themont85 wrote: »

One of his weapons in Chicago was a terrible Brandon Lloyd (who was on the field a lot) who is now playing like a pro bowler and who's AYPC is a good deal higher than it was when he was been thrown to by the same QB two years previous.

He was extremely average in Chicago. They used him wrong yes but he routinely missed deep balls. He was a game manager who didn't throw the wild pick. Obviously the Pats had better weapons but they also have a better system.

Its not just the weapons he had. Cassel didn't start a game for how many years when he got into the starting lineup and still put up very good stats overall. The system being QB friendly is just my opinion.

As a fan of a team (Bills) which certainly needs a new QB I would be quite happy with Orton as he brings us from dreadful at QB to good. Do I see him as a long term Franchise QB, no tbh.

You do realise you are way off the mark with Lloyd right? His first 5 games with the Bears he had the most Receptions of any Bears WR, 15 in total for 249 yards and 1 TD. In fact back then it seemed he linked up well with Orton in the firt 5. He got injured and missed the next 5 games. And didn't start the following 5 games due to a fall out with the Bears coaches. And due to not starting was in rotation with Booker and Hester. Had he not fallen out with the coaching staff who knows what he could have done had they started him after his injury.

tommyboyle

When Tebow was drafted it was as a prodject. No one in the league or almost any fan thought he would supplant Orton this year. Because of that fact it is impossible to classify him as a failure. During the predraft hoopla had his internship lasting around three years, two by miracle. On a different note will cowher coach next year? He retired to spend time with the fam, especially the wife. She's been past awhile and the girls are in college. There will be a lot of attractive suitors. Next year has the possibility of being a weird year of lots of good franchises looking for coaching.

neilster

themont85 wrote: »

The one on NFL.com has Tebow as second string...

Lads there was plenty of talk that maybe Cassell was the new Brady and would supplant him as the QB as he was younger and had proven himself to be adept (as Brady did with Blesdoe). Now it was really laughable but there was still talk of it.

Cassell after a few games slotted into the Patriots offense and looked quality by season's end.

Kyle Orton for his first several years as a QB looked like an extremely average player. I still stand by my comment that the system has made him into the Pro Bowler he will inevitably be, likewise with Brandon Llyold.

Dont take my word read Matt Bowen at NatFootPost about system quarterbacks ..when people brought up the Cassell example he laughed...systems dont exist in the NFL they are constantly evolving hybrids...a defense can play Tampa 2 , Cover 2,3 or 6 ...and thats only a Floridian package...ditto for offences .....

This system talk is a way of saying that the system molds a QB ...bad O-line makes Orton play well ....bad rushing team at Denver and pass happy makes Orton look good ...if its Rivers... people give him the plaudits he deserves ...Bowen said this isnt the NCAA or Florida with Urban Meyer's spread offence or Bradford out of the shotgun for solid 4 years in Oklahoma

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

When Tebow was drafted it was as a prodject. No one in the league or almost any fan thought he would supplant Orton this year. Because of that fact it is impossible to classify him as a failure. During the predraft hoopla had his internship lasting around three years, two by miracle. On a different note will cowher coach next year? He retired to spend time with the fam, especially the wife. She's been past awhile and the girls are in college. There will be a lot of attractive suitors. Next year has the possibility of being a weird year of lots of good franchises looking for coaching.

Its hard to know what the Broncos are thinking but they extended Orton in a strange way ....

as to Cowher i think he will coach ...im intrigued that JJones might call and feel he needs a Parcells era

tommyboyle

I really think and hope they will give tebow the time he needs to develop. Orton is the perfect way to let this happen. When they drafted tebow every expert who went on espn and the nfl network said he was a work in progress.

spiralism

just to kill any speculation otherwise, Mcdaniels was interviewed today and asked who the no. 2 qb was and who would go in if Orton went down... said straight away that it was Tebow... so he's definitely beaten Quinn to it already

Chardee MacDennis

Apparently tebow is the most sold jersey in the NFL - that makes me sad...

eagle eye

BastardPrince wrote: »

Apparently tebow is the most sold jersey in the NFL - that makes me sad...

Why does that bother you?

mikemac

BastardPrince wrote: »

Apparently tebow is the most sold jersey in the NFL - that makes me sad...

Has been for over 6 months now. They released figures a month or two after draft day and Tebow jerseys are consistently the highest

Syferus

He was easily the biggest star in college football for at least two years and has a huge national profile, I don't really see anything suprising or wrong about his jersey being a big seller.

spiralism

This year so far:

Kyle Orton: 217/350, 62% comp, 2806 yds, 16 TDs, 5 INTs and 96.4 QBR

Peyton Manning: 248/386, 64.2% comp, 2663 yds, 16 TDs, 4 INTs and 93.9 QBR

Tim Tebow : 1/1, 100% comp, 3 yds, 1 TD, 0 INT and 118.6 QBR :pac:

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

I agree with the bolded part anyways, but Hillis wouldn't be the reason there, i wouldn't care if we were winning games but we aren't. He's out of his depth cause the team cant get anything done under his watch



Yeah that's true, Hillis would be doing nothing the way our run game has gone, it's not like Moreno doesn't have potential, the lad often breaks off good gains from bad blocking...If he was around under Shanahan's run system, he'd be putting up great numbers like Hillis did in his brief stay but our idiot coach decided to change the run blocking scheme, the interior oline to fit his scheme and then replaced our old oline coach with a former tight ends coach...:mad:

Bear in mind Cleveland have one of the most underrated olines in the NFL, its actually pretty excellent.

Nobody is saying that Moreno is crap and Hillis is excellent

there was a first round pick invested in Moreno when maybe the problem was investing that pick or picks adding to a first for blockers and let Hillis take the hits .....the Pats are masters of this ....you could point to Denver , the O-line and Moreno a first round pick

but why is Pats running effectively with Woodhead & Green Ellis ...because of the blocking and where the picks are being invested ?

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

This year so far:

Kyle Orton: 217/350, 62% comp, 2806 yds, 16 TDs, 5 INTs and 96.4 QBR

Peyton Manning: 248/386, 64.2% comp, 2663 yds, 16 TDs, 4 INTs and 93.9 QBR

Tim Tebow : 1/1, 100% comp, 3 yds, 1 TD, 0 INT and 118.6 QBR :pac:

What is the longest pass he has thrown , i think 4 yards ....stats damn statistics ...if McDaniels (a big IF) gets to stay and i would say he will have do 0.500 to survive , Tebow may get a big push by McDaniels ....if he is let ...but if a new man comes in Tebow will have to prove to coach that he can pocket pass , he will probably 2011 to learn more ...he is owed $6.5m dollars on 30th March 2011 as a bonus so that will concentrate minds

remember there are free agent coaches like Gruden , Cowher , Fox , Billick and co-ordinators like Frewell , Frazier , Rivera and Garret (if he doesnt get Dallas ) lurking in the shadows and Denver is a big franchise who will want a successful coach

I love it Orton had a big day Sunday and all the talk is about Tebow ...but he hasnt done anything he didnt do in Florida ...which namely run and not pass much

spiralism

neilster wrote: »

What is the longest pass he has thrown , i think 4 yards ....stats damn statistics ...if McDaniels (a big IF) gets to stay and i would say he will have do 0.500 to survive , Tebow may get a big push by McDaniels ....if he is let ...but if a new man comes in Tebow will have to prove to coach that he can pocket pass , he will probably 2011 to learn more ...he is owed $6.5m dollars on 30th March 2011 as a bonus so that will concentrate minds

remember there are free agent coaches like Gruden , Cowher , Fox , Billick and co-ordinators like Frewell , Frazier , Rivera and Garret (if he doesnt get Dallas ) lurking in the shadows and Denver is a big franchise who will want a successful coach

I love it Orton had a big day Sunday and all the talk is about Tebow ...but he hasnt done anything he didnt do in Florida ...which namely run and not pass much

It was tongue in cheek anyways, but his role as wildcat qb has been successful in that it has certainly helped our redzone woes!

Also, our owner isn't cheap like many can be, if he lets one go it wont be down solely to money issues, it'll be down to what is best for the team

Anyways though, im a huge fan of Orton at the end of it all, hes been brilliant this year and was unreal again on sunday. Note his stats against Peyton Mannings this year, pretty much neck and neck.

essentially i think we're pretty good at the qb position either way. now if we can have the oline consistently block like it did on sunday and the defence play like it did when the game was competitive, we are in business.

Morrisseeee

essentially i think we're pretty good at the qb position either way. now if we can have the oline consistently block like it did on sunday and the defence play like it did when the game was competitive, we are in business

Yep, that about sums it up, well said
Last year we were 6-0 and then ......meltdown, I hope its the reverse this year, whats the odds on them winning the Division, might be worth a punt :eek: