PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

neilster

PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

what does everyone think?

Syferus

I DON'T REALLY KNOW.


But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

spiralism

neilster wrote: »

PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

what does everyone think?

I agree with the bolded part anyways, but Hillis wouldn't be the reason there, i wouldn't care if we were winning games but we aren't. He's out of his depth cause the team cant get anything done under his watch

Syferus wrote: »

But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

Yeah that's true, Hillis would be doing nothing the way our run game has gone, it's not like Moreno doesn't have potential, the lad often breaks off good gains from bad blocking...If he was around under Shanahan's run system, he'd be putting up great numbers like Hillis did in his brief stay but our idiot coach decided to change the run blocking scheme, the interior oline to fit his scheme and then replaced our old oline coach with a former tight ends coach...:mad:

Bear in mind Cleveland have one of the most underrated olines in the NFL, its actually pretty excellent.

tommyboyle

Hillis is a beast. Shanahan knew that and stated as much. Cleveland is a great spot for him, spiralism is right; the o-line in cleveland is nice. Hillis is the real deal and is big enough to take the constant punishment. All Mangini has to co is award the qb spot to mccoy.

Chucky the tree

It's one of the many signs. The Alponso Smith one is another, 5 ints with the Lions and doing quite well by all accounts. Funnily enough his best trade has probably been his most criticed which was trading Cutler for Orton.

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Funnily enough his best trade has probably been his most criticed which was trading Cutler for Orton.

Yeah and the worst trade was trading back into the first round to take Tebow when he already had Orton!

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

I DON'T REALLY KNOW.


But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

Well Shanahans trademark zonal scheme always had the ability to put the latest young recruit , a JAG " Just another guy" plugged into the system and a 1,000 yd season

Having said that Terrell Davis was a proper elite player but the system really works and McDaniels has torn that up..myself i wouldnt have taking Moreno higher than the 3rd ...dont think he is 1st rd pick material but he has shown promise

My point is the deal ......as in a trade it sometimes is the deal that matters not the player ....Firstly Denver got Brady Quinn who is months away from being cut but it was sweetened further by a 6th rd pick and a conditional 7th ...thats the swindle as Hillis performance will probably ensure the whole deal happens

For the Browns ...Hillis has been a hit...the big yards have been against Pats and Saints run defenses ...not bad ...he lay bhind McFadden & felix Jones in College ...shone brightly briefly and then McDaniels gave him one look and said not good enough

He wasted a higher pick than he needed on Moreno ....panicked in JJ Arrington ...brought in Lamont Jordan as well and now 6th and 7th picks getting thrown around....thats the swindle not just Hillis

Lads DEnver are dead last in rushing attack yardage

neilster

frostie500 wrote: »

Yeah and the worst trade was trading back into the first round to take Tebow when he already had Orton!

I think the Tebow thing may nail him in the end ....1st round busts for QBs are coachkillers

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

Hillis is a beast. Shanahan knew that and stated as much. Cleveland is a great spot for him, spiralism is right; the o-line in cleveland is nice. Hillis is the real deal and is big enough to take the constant punishment. All Mangini has to co is award the qb spot to mccoy.

Youd have the say the Browns have made real forward steps and the most winningest QB in NCAA history in McCoy has that little bit of cockiness that guys have when they know they have it ...a quiet confidence ...

Again Holmgren shows his ability with QBs ....Steve Young at the Niners , Favre , Hasselbeck ... they passed on Clausen so got that right

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

I think the Tebow thing may nail him in the end ....1st round busts for QBs are coachkillers

Explain how Tebow is a bust?

That's like saying Aaron rodgers is a bust, tbh.

themont85

I love how you are proclaiming McCoy to be a success and Tebow and Clausen busts, already. Tebow has probably taken just a couple of dozen snaps in the NFL, if even, and the majority of those were running plays. Clausen has played a couple of games for a lame duck coached team. McCoy has had 2 decent performances but lets not go crazy.

I would be highly critical of the way McDaniels has gone about the QB position but you can't argue that he has taken ballsy decisions when easy ones were there to take, in fairness to him. Bringing Brady Quinn in was seen as an okay move at the time and could well still be a good one, he did provide competition at the QB spot. Many Denver fans wanted Orton traded this summer so its not like he was a Godsend Franchise QB.

tommyboyle

I wouldnt call clausen a bust yet. There is not a qb in the league that could make that franchise respectful. Cleveland is becoming a fun team to watch. Mccoy got lucky to land there. Delhomme has taken him under his wing and as stated earlier, Holmgren knows how to develop qbs. Most importantly they are not depending on him to win games. He is throwing only 20 passes a game and only has to manage it.

frostie500

He's not a bust but the fact that McDaniels traded back into the first round to pick a QB when he already had Orton(who is playing at a high level) is something that will come back to bite him in future. How could it not? You can only play one guy at QB and in fairness to Tebow he doesnt have a look in against Orton so the fact that the Broncos traded away picks to take someone that adds very little value to the offence has to be a negative reflection on McDaniels.

Chardee MacDennis

themont85 wrote: »

I love how you are proclaiming McCoy to be a success and Tebow and Clausen busts, already. Tebow has probably taken just a couple of dozen snaps in the NFL, if even, and the majority of those were running plays. Clausen has played a couple of games for a lame duck coached team. McCoy has had 2 decent performances but lets not go crazy.

has tebow even thrown a pass yet?

ReacherCreature

BastardPrince wrote: »

has tebow even thrown a pass yet?

Eh, no. What's the point you're making?

Chardee MacDennis

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Eh, no. What's the point you're making?

i dont think he will be a first choice QB ever, he's only been brought in for a few qb sneaks and since he was drafted he's been moved from 2nd choice to 3rd choice. Harsh to say he is a bust but he is definitely not living up to expectations.

themont85

BastardPrince wrote: »

i dont think he will be a first choice QB ever, he's only been brought in for a few qb sneaks and since he was drafted he's been moved from 2nd choice to 3rd choice. Harsh to say he is a bust but he is definitely not living up to expectations.

Actually he has moved up from 3rd to 2nd on the depth chart.

I have serious doubts as to whether he will be a good QB but it is way too early to call him a bust. The QB is an long term investment by a team. That's why I think McDaniels was crazy to go the way he has at the QB position, coaches these days only seem to get 3 years to make the playoffs.

tallaghtoutlaws

I think most of you are missing the point of what Neilster said. The Broncos drafted Tebow in the first round of the draft when they had Orton and Quinn. The fact that Orton as frostie said is playing at a high level the trading up to get Tebow could be McDaniels downfall.

Neilster said it right at one point does Denver stick with Orton and fire McDaniels? And if this happens what happens Tebow who is being paid a high wage when a new coach comes in. Or do they stick with the McD and Tebow project and trade off Orton?

Ability wise sure Tebow isnt a bust because we haven't seen him properly. But from a draft point of view he is because if McDaniels goes we might see the end of Tebow also, if whoever they bring in sticks with Orton. No Coach or organisation is going to continue to pay 1 high wage starter and 2 decent sized contracts for the other 2 QBs.

Tebow: five-year, $11.25 million contract
Orton: two-year, $11.621 million contract
Quinn: five-year, $9.25 million contract

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

Explain how Tebow is a bust?

That's like saying Aaron rodgers is a bust, tbh.

To say that there are comparisons is a stretch ...Aaron Rodgers was a star in college as a conventional QB at USC ...made steady progress backing up a legend until he took his place .. a natural succession

Tebow was the most successful QB in history as a QB in a H-Back snap ...not the same thing at all...he is the most successful runner QB in NCAA history but he hasnt a history as a conventional QB, since that hey have said he has worked on his mechanics, etc but critics were unconvinced in preseason where he went back to his sideways delivery and again in a couple of throws as relief to Orton, he has a couiple of touchdowns as a runner ...but he wasnt drafted solely to do that

Also Orton is second in NFL in yards..6th in complations and 7th in QB Percentage ....there is a very big contract behind Tebow, $30-40m dollars. Orton is on $10m which is about right for playing well on a bad team

It might be right to say Tebow is not a bust yet ...but he will have to beat out Orton to not be ...he will have to throw better to remain even if he beats him out and there is an awful lot of money riding on it ...thats why i use the coachkiller statement

and there is no way Pat Bowlen is going to lose a locker-room by replacing an effective QB with a hunch ....You dont tend to get to use an owners money twice on a 1st rd QB

mikemac

The Broncos traded their 43rd, 70th and 114th picks for the Ravens 25th pick

Sergio Kindle OLB
Ed Dickson TE
Dennis Pitta TE

Kindle out for season with a head injury which realy, nobody could have predicated.

Dickson is getting snaps and Pitta goes on special teams. Both will step up with Todd Heap retires, probably end of next season.

The thread title is about Swindle.
The Ravens got the better part of this trade for sure!

neilster

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I think most of you are missing the point of what Neilster said. The Broncos drafted Tebow in the first round of the draft when they had Orton and Quinn. The fact that Orton as frostie said is playing at a high level the trading up to get Tebow could be McDaniels downfall.

Neilster said it right at one point does Denver stick with Orton and fire McDaniels? And if this happens what happens Tebow who is being paid a high wage when a new coach comes in. Or do they stick with the McD and Tebow project and trade off Orton?

Ability wise sure Tebow isnt a bust because we haven't seen him properly. But from a draft point of view he is because if McDaniels goes we might see the end of Tebow also, if whoever they bring in sticks with Orton. No Coach or organisation is going to continue to pay 1 high wage starter and 2 decent sized contracts for the other 2 QBs.

Tebow: five-year, $11.25 million contract
Orton: two-year, $11.621 million contract
Quinn: five-year, $9.25 million contract

As Tallaght has said Tebow really doesnt have to do anything wrong to be a bust ..he was practically on everyone elses board in the 3rd round ...which is millions of dollars invested in a longterm contract ..not tens of millions

As this type of compensation he could sit behind Orton and in year 2 or 3 either make it or not ..but because of the big money contract , you either have to see production early or move on with Orton or another

Bradford and Leinart are instructive in this ...Bradford played in college in a shotgun formation which is also strange like Tebow but he has quietly shown the poise that he can succeed a little like Matt whatever in Atlanta

he has a $50m contract and really like Stafford you need to see production early cos of the high investment. Leinart also had high contract and eventually would have to produce ..he didnt and couldnt at the highest level but it was the high contract that goosed him , he couldnt stay as a QB2 at that money

So maybe Tebow becomes a starter at another team on a restructured contract..its way early to predict but his future may be inextricably linked to McDaniels future and that doesnt look good right now

spiralism

I get the points people are making about Tebow, but i honestly dont see how a 1st round QB who has yet to throw a pass because he is behind an excellent QB on the depth chart can be considered a bust.

A few years ago, one certain team ended up with a hugely promising rookie QB with questionable mechanics and had him behind a great QB on the depth chart but handed him the reins after a couple of years

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

neilster

feelingstressed wrote: »

The Broncos traded their 43rd, 70th and 114th picks for the Ravens 25th pick

Sergio Kindle OLB
Ed Dickson TE
Dennis Pitta TE

Kindle out for season with a head injury which realy, nobody could have predicated.

Dickson is getting snaps and Pitta goes on special teams. Both will step up with Todd Heap retires, probably end of next season.

The thread title is about Swindle.
The Ravens got the better part of this trade for sure!

Everone says there is an awful lot of upside to Kindle...looked very good before and Pitta is useful so the swindle isnt complete yet

having said that i think Heap is certainly one if the most underrrated players all the way through his career

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

The difference Rivers didn't have the huge hype and questions about his abilities the way Tebow did. And to be honest with you I can't see what Rivers would have learned from Brees. Certainly wasn't professionalism and they have two very different styles at QB. To be honest I never saw Rivers as Brees understudy. I saw a guy frustrated at being a backup for 2 seasons.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

The difference Rivers didn't have the huge hype and questions about his abilities the way Tebow did. And to be honest with you I can't see what Rivers would have learned from Brees. Certainly wasn't professionalism and they have two very different styles at QB. To be honest I never saw Rivers as Brees understudy. I saw a guy frustrated at being a backup for 2 seasons.

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

No no, im not necessarily saying that he learned directly from brees (although both are great leaders) but it allowed him time to get to know the playbook and lit a fire under him to become starter.

Also, regarding mechanics, i am no fan of McDaniels but the man knows his quarterbacks, look what his coaching did with Matt Cassell and Orton... both of them have separately attributed their successes to McDaniels... i don't rate him as a coach but he's excellent at coaching QBs, hes the type that's a great position coach or coordinator but struggles overall as a head coach. Even one year as Tebow's mentor could make a big difference

Throwing a newly drafted QB into the fire can often be a disaster and i honestly think throwing Tebow into a highly complex offence from day 1 would cause him to struggle and put him under enormous pressure. Giving him a year or two to learn the ropes of a proper NFL offence has the combined effect of improving him as a player and allowing the enormous hype and the pressure that comes with it to die down

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

They were questioned yes but not in the way Tebows were. In fact Rivers still throws now the way he did in college. A lot of people were not fans of Rivers Throwing but it wasnt a black mark against him. His mechanics were/are a lot better than Tebows. Rivers throws sidearm were as Tebow has a long slow throwing motion which affects the speed of his release. This is a lot worse than Rivers quick sidearm release.

There is no doubt Josh knows his QB work, but the question still remains will he be there long enough to make an impact with Tebow. The next coach who comes in if Josh gets the boot may not have the patience or the want for Tebow especially with the way Orton is performing right now.

But as a draft pick to the Broncos for me Tebow is a bust because if Josh goes and the new coach comes in leave Tebow on the bench that makes it a bad pick by Denver especially when they could have gotten him for less money in the 2nd or 3rd round. Tebow could become the next big thing in the NFL but right now its not looking like it will happen for him at Denver if Orton goes nowhere and Josh is given the boot.

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

I get the points people are making about Tebow, but i honestly dont see how a 1st round QB who has yet to throw a pass because he is behind an excellent QB on the depth chart can be considered a bust.

A few years ago, one certain team ended up with a hugely promising rookie QB with questionable mechanics and had him behind a great QB on the depth chart but handed him the reins after a couple of years

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

I think the Chargers situation may be slightly different in that AJ Smith rathered Rivers and drafted him after also liking Brees...he thought he was upgrading ...he may not really have being upgrading at all...the rest of the NFL had Rivers rated highly and he was a pocket passer ... a conventional guy

McDaniels went out on a limb with Tebow ...there are a lot of doubts ..not of the guys heart or professionalism or in his running talent but in his ability as a passer ....i dont have to speculate...its there on the other 31 teams boards as this info comes out

Maybe a better comparison is Vick from No 1 pick in 00 through that last season at the Falcons ...always doubt about accuracy high passes ...mechanics etc

but now he has all the attributes of a classic pocket passer but with Olypic sprinter speed ...take Rex Ryan blitzing all night and leaving Revis and Cromartie to beat away passes ...he cant do that with Vick cos if he gets passed scrimmage during a blitz and safeties and CBs are deep , its big yardage..that happened late in the Colts game.. where he stepped up on a blitz

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

No no, im not necessarily saying that he learned directly from brees (although both are great leaders) but it allowed him time to get to know the playbook and lit a fire under him to become starter.

Also, regarding mechanics, i am no fan of McDaniels but the man knows his quarterbacks, look what his coaching did with Matt Cassell and Orton... both of them have separately attributed their successes to McDaniels... i don't rate him as a coach but he's excellent at coaching QBs, hes the type that's a great position coach or coordinator but struggles overall as a head coach. Even one year as Tebow's mentor could make a big difference

Throwing a newly drafted QB into the fire can often be a disaster and i honestly think throwing Tebow into a highly complex offence from day 1 would cause him to struggle and put him under enormous pressure. Giving him a year or two to learn the ropes of a proper NFL offence has the combined effect of improving him as a player and allowing the enormous hype and the pressure that comes with it to die down

As i alluded to elsewhere and with mentioning Vick ...McDaniels knows that if he can get Tebow to pass in a conventional way successfully along with the power and running ability it is very hard to gameplan and opens up a playbook and the possibilities are endless ...but he probably needed to win this season to get the breathing space to train the guy

Then when you add in that he picked him 2 rounds ahead of where he could have picked him ...thats what brings it into bust territory

tommyboyle

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

In the salary cap era ...the cap has been going higher gradually but the contract for No 1 picks is increasing far quicker.. now close to $60m and thats nearly all guaranteed ...this in a way forces a teams hand ...the Lions and Rams with a rookie coach can decide to have a developmental season with their rookie QB coming in very quickly and see what happens

This explains the quick insertion into the line-up of Flacco, Freeman, Henne, Stafford and now Bradford

This isnt just happening with QBs

Suh, Oher , Earl Bennett ...they are many more ...and big money ..means starting in first season

In 1998 Randy Moss as a first round pick had a good camp and started in the lineup on day one...but it wasnt a given ..there never a question that Arrellious Benn , Mike Wallace, Dez Bryant would not start on dayone

tallaghtoutlaws

tommyboyle wrote: »

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

I agree with you for the most part. But trends have changed for the simple reason of QBs have changed and there are a lot less game winners in the NFL so it becomes a vicious circle of looking for that guy who will win ball games for you.

With Regards Young and Montana, Young was taken in the 1984 supplemental draft by the Buccaneers as a starter and to fair had a miserable first two seasons and was 3-16 as a starter. Bill Walsh took a chance on Young and believed he could get the best out of him. Big difference in situations really.