PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

neilster

PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

what does everyone think?

Syferus

I DON'T REALLY KNOW.


But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

spiralism

neilster wrote: »

PEYTON HILLIS SWINDLE - McDaniels out of his depth

what does everyone think?

I agree with the bolded part anyways, but Hillis wouldn't be the reason there, i wouldn't care if we were winning games but we aren't. He's out of his depth cause the team cant get anything done under his watch

Syferus wrote: »

But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

Yeah that's true, Hillis would be doing nothing the way our run game has gone, it's not like Moreno doesn't have potential, the lad often breaks off good gains from bad blocking...If he was around under Shanahan's run system, he'd be putting up great numbers like Hillis did in his brief stay but our idiot coach decided to change the run blocking scheme, the interior oline to fit his scheme and then replaced our old oline coach with a former tight ends coach...:mad:

Bear in mind Cleveland have one of the most underrated olines in the NFL, its actually pretty excellent.

tommyboyle

Hillis is a beast. Shanahan knew that and stated as much. Cleveland is a great spot for him, spiralism is right; the o-line in cleveland is nice. Hillis is the real deal and is big enough to take the constant punishment. All Mangini has to co is award the qb spot to mccoy.

Chucky the tree

It's one of the many signs. The Alponso Smith one is another, 5 ints with the Lions and doing quite well by all accounts. Funnily enough his best trade has probably been his most criticed which was trading Cutler for Orton.

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Funnily enough his best trade has probably been his most criticed which was trading Cutler for Orton.

Yeah and the worst trade was trading back into the first round to take Tebow when he already had Orton!

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

I DON'T REALLY KNOW.


But it's hard to imagine any running back thriving if the line isn't doing its job and Moreno certainly has the potential to be an effective back, so it's a little too easy to think Hillis was really the answer.

Well Shanahans trademark zonal scheme always had the ability to put the latest young recruit , a JAG " Just another guy" plugged into the system and a 1,000 yd season

Having said that Terrell Davis was a proper elite player but the system really works and McDaniels has torn that up..myself i wouldnt have taking Moreno higher than the 3rd ...dont think he is 1st rd pick material but he has shown promise

My point is the deal ......as in a trade it sometimes is the deal that matters not the player ....Firstly Denver got Brady Quinn who is months away from being cut but it was sweetened further by a 6th rd pick and a conditional 7th ...thats the swindle as Hillis performance will probably ensure the whole deal happens

For the Browns ...Hillis has been a hit...the big yards have been against Pats and Saints run defenses ...not bad ...he lay bhind McFadden & felix Jones in College ...shone brightly briefly and then McDaniels gave him one look and said not good enough

He wasted a higher pick than he needed on Moreno ....panicked in JJ Arrington ...brought in Lamont Jordan as well and now 6th and 7th picks getting thrown around....thats the swindle not just Hillis

Lads DEnver are dead last in rushing attack yardage

neilster

frostie500 wrote: »

Yeah and the worst trade was trading back into the first round to take Tebow when he already had Orton!

I think the Tebow thing may nail him in the end ....1st round busts for QBs are coachkillers

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

Hillis is a beast. Shanahan knew that and stated as much. Cleveland is a great spot for him, spiralism is right; the o-line in cleveland is nice. Hillis is the real deal and is big enough to take the constant punishment. All Mangini has to co is award the qb spot to mccoy.

Youd have the say the Browns have made real forward steps and the most winningest QB in NCAA history in McCoy has that little bit of cockiness that guys have when they know they have it ...a quiet confidence ...

Again Holmgren shows his ability with QBs ....Steve Young at the Niners , Favre , Hasselbeck ... they passed on Clausen so got that right

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

I think the Tebow thing may nail him in the end ....1st round busts for QBs are coachkillers

Explain how Tebow is a bust?

That's like saying Aaron rodgers is a bust, tbh.

themont85

I love how you are proclaiming McCoy to be a success and Tebow and Clausen busts, already. Tebow has probably taken just a couple of dozen snaps in the NFL, if even, and the majority of those were running plays. Clausen has played a couple of games for a lame duck coached team. McCoy has had 2 decent performances but lets not go crazy.

I would be highly critical of the way McDaniels has gone about the QB position but you can't argue that he has taken ballsy decisions when easy ones were there to take, in fairness to him. Bringing Brady Quinn in was seen as an okay move at the time and could well still be a good one, he did provide competition at the QB spot. Many Denver fans wanted Orton traded this summer so its not like he was a Godsend Franchise QB.

tommyboyle

I wouldnt call clausen a bust yet. There is not a qb in the league that could make that franchise respectful. Cleveland is becoming a fun team to watch. Mccoy got lucky to land there. Delhomme has taken him under his wing and as stated earlier, Holmgren knows how to develop qbs. Most importantly they are not depending on him to win games. He is throwing only 20 passes a game and only has to manage it.

frostie500

He's not a bust but the fact that McDaniels traded back into the first round to pick a QB when he already had Orton(who is playing at a high level) is something that will come back to bite him in future. How could it not? You can only play one guy at QB and in fairness to Tebow he doesnt have a look in against Orton so the fact that the Broncos traded away picks to take someone that adds very little value to the offence has to be a negative reflection on McDaniels.

Chardee MacDennis

themont85 wrote: »

I love how you are proclaiming McCoy to be a success and Tebow and Clausen busts, already. Tebow has probably taken just a couple of dozen snaps in the NFL, if even, and the majority of those were running plays. Clausen has played a couple of games for a lame duck coached team. McCoy has had 2 decent performances but lets not go crazy.

has tebow even thrown a pass yet?

ReacherCreature

BastardPrince wrote: »

has tebow even thrown a pass yet?

Eh, no. What's the point you're making?

Chardee MacDennis

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Eh, no. What's the point you're making?

i dont think he will be a first choice QB ever, he's only been brought in for a few qb sneaks and since he was drafted he's been moved from 2nd choice to 3rd choice. Harsh to say he is a bust but he is definitely not living up to expectations.

themont85

BastardPrince wrote: »

i dont think he will be a first choice QB ever, he's only been brought in for a few qb sneaks and since he was drafted he's been moved from 2nd choice to 3rd choice. Harsh to say he is a bust but he is definitely not living up to expectations.

Actually he has moved up from 3rd to 2nd on the depth chart.

I have serious doubts as to whether he will be a good QB but it is way too early to call him a bust. The QB is an long term investment by a team. That's why I think McDaniels was crazy to go the way he has at the QB position, coaches these days only seem to get 3 years to make the playoffs.

tallaghtoutlaws

I think most of you are missing the point of what Neilster said. The Broncos drafted Tebow in the first round of the draft when they had Orton and Quinn. The fact that Orton as frostie said is playing at a high level the trading up to get Tebow could be McDaniels downfall.

Neilster said it right at one point does Denver stick with Orton and fire McDaniels? And if this happens what happens Tebow who is being paid a high wage when a new coach comes in. Or do they stick with the McD and Tebow project and trade off Orton?

Ability wise sure Tebow isnt a bust because we haven't seen him properly. But from a draft point of view he is because if McDaniels goes we might see the end of Tebow also, if whoever they bring in sticks with Orton. No Coach or organisation is going to continue to pay 1 high wage starter and 2 decent sized contracts for the other 2 QBs.

Tebow: five-year, $11.25 million contract
Orton: two-year, $11.621 million contract
Quinn: five-year, $9.25 million contract

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

Explain how Tebow is a bust?

That's like saying Aaron rodgers is a bust, tbh.

To say that there are comparisons is a stretch ...Aaron Rodgers was a star in college as a conventional QB at USC ...made steady progress backing up a legend until he took his place .. a natural succession

Tebow was the most successful QB in history as a QB in a H-Back snap ...not the same thing at all...he is the most successful runner QB in NCAA history but he hasnt a history as a conventional QB, since that hey have said he has worked on his mechanics, etc but critics were unconvinced in preseason where he went back to his sideways delivery and again in a couple of throws as relief to Orton, he has a couiple of touchdowns as a runner ...but he wasnt drafted solely to do that

Also Orton is second in NFL in yards..6th in complations and 7th in QB Percentage ....there is a very big contract behind Tebow, $30-40m dollars. Orton is on $10m which is about right for playing well on a bad team

It might be right to say Tebow is not a bust yet ...but he will have to beat out Orton to not be ...he will have to throw better to remain even if he beats him out and there is an awful lot of money riding on it ...thats why i use the coachkiller statement

and there is no way Pat Bowlen is going to lose a locker-room by replacing an effective QB with a hunch ....You dont tend to get to use an owners money twice on a 1st rd QB

mikemac

The Broncos traded their 43rd, 70th and 114th picks for the Ravens 25th pick

Sergio Kindle OLB
Ed Dickson TE
Dennis Pitta TE

Kindle out for season with a head injury which realy, nobody could have predicated.

Dickson is getting snaps and Pitta goes on special teams. Both will step up with Todd Heap retires, probably end of next season.

The thread title is about Swindle.
The Ravens got the better part of this trade for sure!

neilster

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I think most of you are missing the point of what Neilster said. The Broncos drafted Tebow in the first round of the draft when they had Orton and Quinn. The fact that Orton as frostie said is playing at a high level the trading up to get Tebow could be McDaniels downfall.

Neilster said it right at one point does Denver stick with Orton and fire McDaniels? And if this happens what happens Tebow who is being paid a high wage when a new coach comes in. Or do they stick with the McD and Tebow project and trade off Orton?

Ability wise sure Tebow isnt a bust because we haven't seen him properly. But from a draft point of view he is because if McDaniels goes we might see the end of Tebow also, if whoever they bring in sticks with Orton. No Coach or organisation is going to continue to pay 1 high wage starter and 2 decent sized contracts for the other 2 QBs.

Tebow: five-year, $11.25 million contract
Orton: two-year, $11.621 million contract
Quinn: five-year, $9.25 million contract

As Tallaght has said Tebow really doesnt have to do anything wrong to be a bust ..he was practically on everyone elses board in the 3rd round ...which is millions of dollars invested in a longterm contract ..not tens of millions

As this type of compensation he could sit behind Orton and in year 2 or 3 either make it or not ..but because of the big money contract , you either have to see production early or move on with Orton or another

Bradford and Leinart are instructive in this ...Bradford played in college in a shotgun formation which is also strange like Tebow but he has quietly shown the poise that he can succeed a little like Matt whatever in Atlanta

he has a $50m contract and really like Stafford you need to see production early cos of the high investment. Leinart also had high contract and eventually would have to produce ..he didnt and couldnt at the highest level but it was the high contract that goosed him , he couldnt stay as a QB2 at that money

So maybe Tebow becomes a starter at another team on a restructured contract..its way early to predict but his future may be inextricably linked to McDaniels future and that doesnt look good right now

spiralism

I get the points people are making about Tebow, but i honestly dont see how a 1st round QB who has yet to throw a pass because he is behind an excellent QB on the depth chart can be considered a bust.

A few years ago, one certain team ended up with a hugely promising rookie QB with questionable mechanics and had him behind a great QB on the depth chart but handed him the reins after a couple of years

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

neilster

feelingstressed wrote: »

The Broncos traded their 43rd, 70th and 114th picks for the Ravens 25th pick

Sergio Kindle OLB
Ed Dickson TE
Dennis Pitta TE

Kindle out for season with a head injury which realy, nobody could have predicated.

Dickson is getting snaps and Pitta goes on special teams. Both will step up with Todd Heap retires, probably end of next season.

The thread title is about Swindle.
The Ravens got the better part of this trade for sure!

Everone says there is an awful lot of upside to Kindle...looked very good before and Pitta is useful so the swindle isnt complete yet

having said that i think Heap is certainly one if the most underrrated players all the way through his career

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

The difference Rivers didn't have the huge hype and questions about his abilities the way Tebow did. And to be honest with you I can't see what Rivers would have learned from Brees. Certainly wasn't professionalism and they have two very different styles at QB. To be honest I never saw Rivers as Brees understudy. I saw a guy frustrated at being a backup for 2 seasons.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

The difference Rivers didn't have the huge hype and questions about his abilities the way Tebow did. And to be honest with you I can't see what Rivers would have learned from Brees. Certainly wasn't professionalism and they have two very different styles at QB. To be honest I never saw Rivers as Brees understudy. I saw a guy frustrated at being a backup for 2 seasons.

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

No no, im not necessarily saying that he learned directly from brees (although both are great leaders) but it allowed him time to get to know the playbook and lit a fire under him to become starter.

Also, regarding mechanics, i am no fan of McDaniels but the man knows his quarterbacks, look what his coaching did with Matt Cassell and Orton... both of them have separately attributed their successes to McDaniels... i don't rate him as a coach but he's excellent at coaching QBs, hes the type that's a great position coach or coordinator but struggles overall as a head coach. Even one year as Tebow's mentor could make a big difference

Throwing a newly drafted QB into the fire can often be a disaster and i honestly think throwing Tebow into a highly complex offence from day 1 would cause him to struggle and put him under enormous pressure. Giving him a year or two to learn the ropes of a proper NFL offence has the combined effect of improving him as a player and allowing the enormous hype and the pressure that comes with it to die down

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

They were questioned yes but not in the way Tebows were. In fact Rivers still throws now the way he did in college. A lot of people were not fans of Rivers Throwing but it wasnt a black mark against him. His mechanics were/are a lot better than Tebows. Rivers throws sidearm were as Tebow has a long slow throwing motion which affects the speed of his release. This is a lot worse than Rivers quick sidearm release.

There is no doubt Josh knows his QB work, but the question still remains will he be there long enough to make an impact with Tebow. The next coach who comes in if Josh gets the boot may not have the patience or the want for Tebow especially with the way Orton is performing right now.

But as a draft pick to the Broncos for me Tebow is a bust because if Josh goes and the new coach comes in leave Tebow on the bench that makes it a bad pick by Denver especially when they could have gotten him for less money in the 2nd or 3rd round. Tebow could become the next big thing in the NFL but right now its not looking like it will happen for him at Denver if Orton goes nowhere and Josh is given the boot.

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

I get the points people are making about Tebow, but i honestly dont see how a 1st round QB who has yet to throw a pass because he is behind an excellent QB on the depth chart can be considered a bust.

A few years ago, one certain team ended up with a hugely promising rookie QB with questionable mechanics and had him behind a great QB on the depth chart but handed him the reins after a couple of years

That team was the Chargers, and the QB in question was Philip Rivers... seemed like being Drew Brees's backup for a couple of years was beneficial to him, didnt it?

I think the Chargers situation may be slightly different in that AJ Smith rathered Rivers and drafted him after also liking Brees...he thought he was upgrading ...he may not really have being upgrading at all...the rest of the NFL had Rivers rated highly and he was a pocket passer ... a conventional guy

McDaniels went out on a limb with Tebow ...there are a lot of doubts ..not of the guys heart or professionalism or in his running talent but in his ability as a passer ....i dont have to speculate...its there on the other 31 teams boards as this info comes out

Maybe a better comparison is Vick from No 1 pick in 00 through that last season at the Falcons ...always doubt about accuracy high passes ...mechanics etc

but now he has all the attributes of a classic pocket passer but with Olypic sprinter speed ...take Rex Ryan blitzing all night and leaving Revis and Cromartie to beat away passes ...he cant do that with Vick cos if he gets passed scrimmage during a blitz and safeties and CBs are deep , its big yardage..that happened late in the Colts game.. where he stepped up on a blitz

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

He did have his throwing motion criticised though... sound familiar?

No no, im not necessarily saying that he learned directly from brees (although both are great leaders) but it allowed him time to get to know the playbook and lit a fire under him to become starter.

Also, regarding mechanics, i am no fan of McDaniels but the man knows his quarterbacks, look what his coaching did with Matt Cassell and Orton... both of them have separately attributed their successes to McDaniels... i don't rate him as a coach but he's excellent at coaching QBs, hes the type that's a great position coach or coordinator but struggles overall as a head coach. Even one year as Tebow's mentor could make a big difference

Throwing a newly drafted QB into the fire can often be a disaster and i honestly think throwing Tebow into a highly complex offence from day 1 would cause him to struggle and put him under enormous pressure. Giving him a year or two to learn the ropes of a proper NFL offence has the combined effect of improving him as a player and allowing the enormous hype and the pressure that comes with it to die down

As i alluded to elsewhere and with mentioning Vick ...McDaniels knows that if he can get Tebow to pass in a conventional way successfully along with the power and running ability it is very hard to gameplan and opens up a playbook and the possibilities are endless ...but he probably needed to win this season to get the breathing space to train the guy

Then when you add in that he picked him 2 rounds ahead of where he could have picked him ...thats what brings it into bust territory

tommyboyle

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

In the salary cap era ...the cap has been going higher gradually but the contract for No 1 picks is increasing far quicker.. now close to $60m and thats nearly all guaranteed ...this in a way forces a teams hand ...the Lions and Rams with a rookie coach can decide to have a developmental season with their rookie QB coming in very quickly and see what happens

This explains the quick insertion into the line-up of Flacco, Freeman, Henne, Stafford and now Bradford

This isnt just happening with QBs

Suh, Oher , Earl Bennett ...they are many more ...and big money ..means starting in first season

In 1998 Randy Moss as a first round pick had a good camp and started in the lineup on day one...but it wasnt a given ..there never a question that Arrellious Benn , Mike Wallace, Dez Bryant would not start on dayone

tallaghtoutlaws

tommyboyle wrote: »

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

I agree with you for the most part. But trends have changed for the simple reason of QBs have changed and there are a lot less game winners in the NFL so it becomes a vicious circle of looking for that guy who will win ball games for you.

With Regards Young and Montana, Young was taken in the 1984 supplemental draft by the Buccaneers as a starter and to fair had a miserable first two seasons and was 3-16 as a starter. Bill Walsh took a chance on Young and believed he could get the best out of him. Big difference in situations really.

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

To say that there are comparisons is a stretch ...Aaron Rodgers was a star in college as a conventional QB at USC ...made steady progress backing up a legend until he took his place .. a natural succession

Are you purposely evading my point? The only way Tebow can be considered a bust is because he's not a rookie starter -- just like Rodgers. And countless others.

You can make assumptions, and speculate, but ultimately the guy has to be given the benefit of the doubt. You're not giving Tebow any chance. i wouldn't mind but your the guy who called Orton elite a few weeks ago. Now tebow is a bust because he hasn't ousted an elite QB in his first year?

This is just a continuation of the Tebow bashing we've seen before. Josh McDaniels may not be head coach material, but he knows about offense. He wouldn't have picked Tebow in the 1st round if he wasn't confident of the guy's ability. Give him a break.

neilster

themont85 wrote: »

I love how you are proclaiming McCoy to be a success and Tebow and Clausen busts, already. Tebow has probably taken just a couple of dozen snaps in the NFL, if even, and the majority of those were running plays. Clausen has played a couple of games for a lame duck coached team. McCoy has had 2 decent performances but lets not go crazy.

I would be highly critical of the way McDaniels has gone about the QB position but you can't argue that he has taken ballsy decisions when easy ones were there to take, in fairness to him. Bringing Brady Quinn in was seen as an okay move at the time and could well still be a good one, he did provide competition at the QB spot. Many Denver fans wanted Orton traded this summer so its not like he was a Godsend Franchise QB.

I for one have always had problems with Clausen ..he was a punk in college and Notre Dame went down the tubes on his watch

Texas blossomed with McCoy and him with them ...funny in college he didnt look good in camps or before he got the QB1 spot but then reveled in the leading role

Holmgren looked at both and plumped for McCoy and he knows more about QBs than us all put together..its early for McCoy but this was the Pats and Saints 2 weeks in a row..something to build on

Clausen has lots of problems...Moore is gone for season and probably for ever so it will be on his shoulders now and he is on a 2nd rd contract and losing the coach in the off-season (Fox will go ) who brought him there ..he will have to show something i would say to get to stay as a new coach will have to be convinced

frostie500

neilster wrote: »

I for one have always had problems with Clausen ..he was a punk in college and Notre Dame went down the tubes on his watch

It's a bit of a stretch to say that the Irish went down the tubes on Clausen's watch, that program has been dire for years and in all fairness it is highly unlikely that we will see them rebounding anytime soon. The issue with ND isnt to do with players like Clausen it is to do with the changing nature of college football

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

Are you purposely evading my point? The only way Tebow can be considered a bust is because he's not a rookie starter -- just like Rodgers. And countless others.

You can make assumptions, and speculate, but ultimately the guy has to be given the benefit of the doubt. You're not giving Tebow any chance. i wouldn't mind but your the guy who called Orton elite a few weeks ago. Now tebow is a bust because he hasn't ousted an elite QB in his first year?

This is just a continuation of the Tebow bashing we've seen before. Josh McDaniels may not be head coach material, but he knows about offense. He wouldn't have picked Tebow in the 1st round if he wasn't confident of the guy's ability. Give him a break.

You are comparing Rodgers and Tebow ..totally different QBs

thats like comparing a Vick and a Brady ....totally different ...nearly all the Round 1 rookie QBs have started ....Bradford ...Stafford ....

Tebow is the only one not doing it ...why cos he has a QB in front of him

2nd in yardage
6th in completions
7th in QB rating

thats what makes this intriguing ...the big money contract.. the mechanics problems ....the unlikely high pick of an embattled coach ...and a QB with big number ahead of him

who says Orton is a bust ...Rivers is on a 3-5 team with MVP stats...the only QB ahead of him in yardage

You are right Tebow hasnt got a chance to show what he can do and he due to circumstance may never get the chance

Chardee MacDennis

themont85 wrote: »

Actually he has moved up from 3rd to 2nd on the depth chart.

and then moved back down
http://www.nflsportsdaily.com/nfl-football/broncos-drop-qb-tebow-to-3rd-string-ap.html

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

You are comparing Rodgers and Tebow ..totally different QBs

thats like comparing a Vick and a Brady ....totally different ...nearly all the Round 1 rookie QBs have started ....Bradford ...Stafford ....

You really don't get the point I'm making? I'm not comparing their styles. I'm comparing the fact they sat behind a better, more experienced QB.
That's the comparison I'm making. Rodgers is clearly not a bust, so you can't call Tebow a bust just because you don't like what you see.

neilster wrote: »

who says Orton is a bust ...Rivers is on a 3-5 team with MVP stats...the only QB ahead of him in yardage

I never said Orton is a bust. Not even close.

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

You really don't get the point I'm making? I'm not comparing their styles. I'm comparing the fact they sat behind a better, more experienced QB.
That's the comparison I'm making. Rodgers is clearly not a bust, so you can't call Tebow a bust just because you don't like what you see.



I never said Orton is a bust. Not even close.

But Rodgers showed progression as he should have done ....the Broncos i dont see them seeing that at present ...maybe i am wrong

and if you have any info on what bronco thoughts are id love to hear

tommyboyle

Young sat on the bench behind montana and waited his turn there is no exactly the same circumstance. As far as the payroll that is a great point and should be remedied with the upcoming contract. But the bench is the place for tebow and next year two. Josh never had any intenention in starting him yet. The talent he possesses will make him a fun prodject for a guy who has experience developing qbs

Chucky the tree

tommyboyle wrote: »

Young sat on the bench behind montana and waited his turn there is no exactly the same circumstance. As far as the payroll that is a great point and should be remedied with the upcoming contract. But the bench is the place for tebow and next year two. Josh never had any intenention in starting him yet. The talent he possesses will make him a fun prodject for a guy who has experience developing qbs

The problem is giving up draft picks and moving into the first round when you've a good few holes to fill is such a poor decision on his part and will be one of many poor decisions that will probably mean he won't get to play with his project in two years time. If you want a player to sit and learn for a few years you draft him in the 3rd round or later, you now a days teams can't afford to draft a 1st round player and let him sit because as Tallaght pointed out it is to expensive.

tommyboyle

In the upcoming contract there will be a cap set for draft picks. The union is not really debatimg this, they just want some of the unused money to go to the retired players fund

spiralism

BastardPrince wrote: »

and then moved back down
http://www.nflsportsdaily.com/nfl-football/broncos-drop-qb-tebow-to-3rd-string-ap.html

He's since gone back to 2nd string, according to mcdaniels he got demoted for that game because qb trick option plays were not going to get us anywhere vs the colts (which was idiotic as our redzone offence killed us that game and tebow coulda been a breath of fresh air in the RZ)

neilster wrote: »

McDaniels went out on a limb with Tebow ...there are a lot of doubts ..not of the guys heart or professionalism or in his running talent but in his ability as a passer ....i dont have to speculate...its there on the other 31 teams boards as this info comes out

Maybe a better comparison is Vick from No 1 pick in 00 through that last season at the Falcons ...always doubt about accuracy high passes ...mechanics etc

but now he has all the attributes of a classic pocket passer but with Olypic sprinter speed ...take Rex Ryan blitzing all night and leaving Revis and Cromartie to beat away passes ...he cant do that with Vick cos if he gets passed scrimmage during a blitz and safeties and CBs are deep , its big yardage..that happened late in the Colts game.. where he stepped up on a blitz

Lot of people were high on him too...

some coaches/prominent NFL figures opinions of Tebow:

Steve Spagnuolo: “When that young man walked in our room at the combine, you talk about an impressive guy. I’d never bet against that guy. He’s got something about him. He walks in and just controls the room in a good way, not in a cocky way. We watched tape with him and as soon as he got the remote in his hand, he was into it and just rolled with it. You could tell he was loving it. He wasn’t putting on a show. He deeply, deeply has a passion for what he does. He believes in himself.’’

Mike Shanahan: “I like everything about him. If you can’t root for a guy like Tebow, you don’t like your kids. ... He’s kind of an off-the-chart guy. Those guys don’t come around all the time, especially with the success he’s had.’’

Mike Holmgren: “The problem is you’re rolling the dice a little bit more because of his mechanics. But I think he’s going to make some team real happy,’’

Mike Mc Carthy: “I think he’s a winner. I’m excited to see what he does in the NFL. He wins games. It’ll be interesting to see who has the opportunity to develop him. I’d love to have the opportunity.’’

Tony Dungy: "As a coach, I always like winners," Dungy said. "Tim Tebow doesn't have the classic throwing motion, he doesn't have the accuracy, maybe, right now that some people are looking for, but I think when he gets into a pro system that really stresses throwing the ball accurately, the big thing is he makes the people around him better. And he's won. ... I think he's going to be a great player in the NFL"

Jon Gruden: "No question. The hard part is, you have to isolate the option. That's why Tim Tebow is so interesting to me. He's like Brandon Jacobs playing quarterback. He's 250 pounds. He's the strongest human being who's ever played the position. Ever. He will kick the living **** out of a defensive lineman. He'll fight anybody. He is rare. Tebow is the kind of guy who could revolutionize the game. He's the 'wildcat' who can throw. Most of the teams that have the wildcat back there, it's Ronnie Brown, it's Jerious Norwood, it's whoever you want to say it is. This guy here is 250 pounds of concrete cyanide, man. And he can throw. He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback."
"When he was a high school senior, they played Armwood in the state championship game. I have tape. He has an 80-yard touchdown run that put them in the lead. When it flipped around, and Armwood had the ball, what position do you think Tebow was playing? He was playing nose guard - and he disrupted about 10 plays. This guy is totally different. He's got Rich Gannon, Drew Brees, that kind of makeup as a team guy. What he said after the Ole Miss game, I said, 'That's my favorite football player I've ever seen in my whole life.' I said, 'I want Florida to win every game that kid plays from now on.'"

Brad Childress also reportedly wanted him... i doubt he still would have been there for us after the 1st round as the vikes and panthers, who both wanted QBs, didnt pick til the 2nd round.. buffalo also were interested in trading into the late 1st to pick him up

ReacherCreature

BastardPrince wrote: »

i dont think he will be a first choice QB ever, he's only been brought in for a few qb sneaks and since he was drafted he's been moved from 2nd choice to 3rd choice. Harsh to say he is a bust but he is definitely not living up to expectations.

Ridiculous notion. He, like most guys must be given time and a chance. Not living up to expectations? That's cos he hasn't played properly and Orton's been pretty solid for them. Talk about guilty without charge.

neilster

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Ridiculous notion. He, like most guys must be given time and a chance. Not living up to expectations? That's cos he hasn't played properly and Orton's been pretty solid for them. Talk about guilty without charge.

It is true that he has not been giving a chance to prove himself but this is the "Not For Long" league not Florida .

He has a high contract around his neck and a competent QB ahead of him . There is significant doubt around the NFL about the high drafting of Tebow and in a confidential poll of GMs on condition of anonymity a significant number wouldnt take the risk on Tebow . On draft day there was no stalking horse following Tebow

Add in the fact that Bowlen (owner) may have buyers remorse ...McDaniels may not survive and that a new coach will likely do his own thing and there is an awful lot in play there

But as someone mentioned earlier

In the offseason Orton and Tebow will be on the roster at roughly $11m annually a piece ...that isnt going to happen in the long-term ....to reference see Cassel vs Brady .....Leinart vs Anderson ....Delhomme vs Moore

tallaghtoutlaws

tommyboyle wrote: »

Young sat on the bench behind montana and waited his turn there is no exactly the same circumstance. As far as the payroll that is a great point and should be remedied with the upcoming contract. But the bench is the place for tebow and next year two. Josh never had any intenention in starting him yet. The talent he possesses will make him a fun prodject for a guy who has experience developing qbs

Did you read my last post? Young wasn't considered a good QB when he was traded to the 49ers because of his start. At that time the move by the 49ers was considered to be them backing up Montana. Young had 2 season in the NFL and stunk. But Walsh was willing to work with him as he saw potential. Walsh blamed the Bucs as an organisation for Youngs bad start. Again I say totally different to Tebow. Walsh gave Young a second lease of life and aren't we all glad he did as Young turned out to be fantastic.

But my main point Young was traded to be a backup after being drafted as a starter and that is the big difference with him and Tebow. But had the 49ers not traded for him who knows if he would have ever gotten that second chance.

tallaghtoutlaws

neilster wrote: »

In the offseason Orton and Tebow will be on the roster at roughly $11m annually a piece ...that isnt going to happen in the long-term ....to reference see Cassel vs Brady .....Leinart vs Anderson ....Delhomme vs Moore

Exactly this with Tebow. For him to start one of him or Orton has to leave Denver. And the next question will be if Denver realise its Orton they want to roll with who will gamble on Tebow as a starter and then who will let him warm a bench with that contract. Going to be a rocky road in Denver.

neilster

spiralism wrote: »

He's since gone back to 2nd string, according to mcdaniels he got demoted for that game because qb trick option plays were not going to get us anywhere vs the colts (which was idiotic as our redzone offence killed us that game and tebow coulda been a breath of fresh air in the RZ)




Lot of people were high on him too...

some coaches/prominent NFL figures opinions of Tebow:

Steve Spagnuolo: “When that young man walked in our room at the combine, you talk about an impressive guy. I’d never bet against that guy. He’s got something about him. He walks in and just controls the room in a good way, not in a cocky way. We watched tape with him and as soon as he got the remote in his hand, he was into it and just rolled with it. You could tell he was loving it. He wasn’t putting on a show. He deeply, deeply has a passion for what he does. He believes in himself.’’

Mike Shanahan: “I like everything about him. If you can’t root for a guy like Tebow, you don’t like your kids. ... He’s kind of an off-the-chart guy. Those guys don’t come around all the time, especially with the success he’s had.’’

Mike Holmgren: “The problem is you’re rolling the dice a little bit more because of his mechanics. But I think he’s going to make some team real happy,’’

Mike Mc Carthy: “I think he’s a winner. I’m excited to see what he does in the NFL. He wins games. It’ll be interesting to see who has the opportunity to develop him. I’d love to have the opportunity.’’

Tony Dungy: "As a coach, I always like winners," Dungy said. "Tim Tebow doesn't have the classic throwing motion, he doesn't have the accuracy, maybe, right now that some people are looking for, but I think when he gets into a pro system that really stresses throwing the ball accurately, the big thing is he makes the people around him better. And he's won. ... I think he's going to be a great player in the NFL"

Jon Gruden: "No question. The hard part is, you have to isolate the option. That's why Tim Tebow is so interesting to me. He's like Brandon Jacobs playing quarterback. He's 250 pounds. He's the strongest human being who's ever played the position. Ever. He will kick the living **** out of a defensive lineman. He'll fight anybody. He is rare. Tebow is the kind of guy who could revolutionize the game. He's the 'wildcat' who can throw. Most of the teams that have the wildcat back there, it's Ronnie Brown, it's Jerious Norwood, it's whoever you want to say it is. This guy here is 250 pounds of concrete cyanide, man. And he can throw. He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback."
"When he was a high school senior, they played Armwood in the state championship game. I have tape. He has an 80-yard touchdown run that put them in the lead. When it flipped around, and Armwood had the ball, what position do you think Tebow was playing? He was playing nose guard - and he disrupted about 10 plays. This guy is totally different. He's got Rich Gannon, Drew Brees, that kind of makeup as a team guy. What he said after the Ole Miss game, I said, 'That's my favorite football player I've ever seen in my whole life.' I said, 'I want Florida to win every game that kid plays from now on.'"

Brad Childress also reportedly wanted him... i doubt he still would have been there for us after the 1st round as the vikes and panthers, who both wanted QBs, didnt pick til the 2nd round.. buffalo also were interested in trading into the late 1st to pick him up

Listen i dont think people are really down on Tebow its just there is only going to be one $11m guy in Denver and it may not be Tebow

tommyboyle

The point that flies over your head Mr Outlaw, is that some qbs need time on the bench in order to learn the pro game. I apologize that you had to take a crazily literally stance on my analogy. To everyone else: Is anyone else as surprised as me at Orton's transformation? He was great at Purdue but really nothing more than an adequate game manager in chicago. I thought the broncos were nuts for there trade. He has been a beast ever since. Lovie Smith must be scratching his head.

neilster

tommyboyle wrote: »

The point that flies over your head Mr Outlaw, is that some qbs need time on the bench in order to learn the pro game. I apologize that you had to take a crazily literally stance on my analogy. To everyone else: Is anyone else as surprised as me at Orton's transformation? He was great at Purdue but really nothing more than an adequate game manager in chicago. I thought the broncos were nuts for there trade. He has been a beast ever since. Lovie Smith must be scratching his head.

Thats why like Tallaght said on Young ....Tebow cos of circumstance may be out but maybe someone else' treasure 2-3 years hence cos he has the potential to be a beast

jacksonville anyone haha ....with the Rams in LA ...at least he might be QBing in Florida lol

as to Orton he really stepped up since Camp and funny enough of all the factors in Denver

like

Tebow, McDaniels, Moreno , Orton ...Orton probably has the greatest grip on his own future

tallaghtoutlaws

tommyboyle wrote: »

The point that flies over your head Mr Outlaw, is that some qbs need time on the bench in order to learn the pro game. I apologize that you had to take a crazily literally stance on my analogy. To everyone else: Is anyone else as surprised as me at Orton's transformation? He was great at Purdue but really nothing more than an adequate game manager in chicago. I thought the broncos were nuts for there trade. He has been a beast ever since. Lovie Smith must be scratching his head.

Hold on second I took you literally? How else was anyone to read what you wrote. Read my responses again and re read what you wrote:

It is only a recent trend of throwing the rookie qb into the fire. The time to draft a qb is when you already have one. Steve Young sat behind montana for years. A rookie needs time to adapt to the nfl. I dont know why josh had to trade so far up to get tebow but apparently he saw something. Tebow needs time on the bench to learn to release the ball quicker. Its his only real downfall. Rivers and rodgers gah time to adjust, tebow needs the same. If this kid can perfect his throwing mechanics who knows how great he can be. No one works harder.

Im sorry but that reads as a rookie sat behind Montana. Young had played 3 years of Pro football at the point he joined the 49ers. 1 in the USFL and 2 in the NFL. So no don't apologise for me reading you literally. Sure I agreed what you said about QBs needing time in fact my posts imply that, But my point is you cannot compare a 3 year starter who found his way to the bench and then some years later starts to become a great to the Tebow situation. The only thing the remotely share is bench warming. Tebow hasn't been given a first chance yet Young got a 2nd.

themont85

Kyle Orton is a product of a system that allows QBs to throw for huge yardage. I personally reckon he would go the way of Matt Cassell being taken out of McDaniels system-ie down.

Have to say it's hilarious that Orton and Brandon Llyold have both started to put up Pro Bowl numbers together when they were both Bears in 2008 and were really both failures. Shows just how important a system is.