Am I the only fan of Brian Cowen?

caseyann

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

How???
Have you had your head under a rock or up your ass for the last few years?

He likes American politics dont you think thats enough said

I really think its Brian

southsiderosie

Ugh, I cannot believe I am taking the bait.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I have to admit, I prefer American politics due to it's entertaining nature, but lately I have been listening/watching Oireachtas sessions online, and I have to admit - I'm loving Brian Cowen!!

He is extremely intelligent.
He is very well spoken (apart from the fat man slur(not a drunken one!)).
He knows figures off by heart.
And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country. (in my own opinion)

All of these qualities seemed to be magnified due to Enda Kennys inadequacies.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Your analogy implies Brian Cowen was to blame for Irelands part in a world wide financial meltdown, when in fact Irelands meltdown can be nearly entirerly blamed on Charlie McCreevy. The lastest episodes of reeling in the years documents it quite well. (I think it was 2001)

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Seriously, - watch an hour or 2 of Dail proceedings and you will get a better understanding of what goes on. (political media is appalling in this country)

Brian Cowen became Finance Minister in 2004, a point where the economy was clearly overheating. Since Ireland could not raise interest rates to cool things down, steps should have been taken to use tax or other fiscal policy to curb massive asset inflation. He did nothing, and his boss flamed anyone who dared to challenge the party line on the state of the economy.

In addition, pretty much every budget from 2007 until today has been a complete and absolute fiction when it comes to expected revenues. Cowen was either directly responsible for, or signed off on every single one of those budgets. And today the country is being punished by international markets, in large part due to the government's fiddling with the figures for the last three years.

Finally, he has at no point been willing to show any kind of leadership in confronting entrenched interests in Irish society, whether the Catholic Church, trade unions, or wealthy bankers and developers. He has consistently put the wants of his party over the needs of Irish citizens, with the most obvious example being his party's refusal to hold bye-elections until the courts called their bluff. Leaving three (now four) constituencies without representatives when the state is facing its deepest crisis since its founding is absolutely disgraceful.

In short, Cowen is a terrible leader of both his party and the country, and deserves most of the criticism he receives. And neither his ability to keep figures straight in his head when speaking in public nor the weakness of the opposition leadership negates that.

Mr.Micro

caseyann wrote: »

He likes American politics dont you think thats enough said

I really think its Brian

aka Biffo :D

KnifeWRENCH

I think Cowen is a fairly decent person; he's not a corrupt crook (á la Haughey or Bertie) and there's no denying that he is intelligent. But he has been a disaster as Taoiseach.

Perhaps if he had been more careful with his Budgets when he was Finance minister, Ireland would not have suffered as much from the recession as it did. Had he handled the economy better when it mattered and ensured that Ireland would recover from the recession at a pace comparable to other European countries (excluding Iceland and Greece, obviously!) his role and popularity as Taoiseach could have been very, very different. It's all a case as "shoulda woulda coulda" though and history will not look kindly on his time as Taoiseach.

I do admire his resilience and his no-nonsense approach into making the tough decisions needed to fix the economy, but any credit he gets for that is wiped out by the fact that him and Bertie were responsible for those decisions needing to be made in the first place.

Lenny Lovett

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Your analogy implies Brian Cowen was to blame for Irelands part in a world wide financial meltdown, when in fact Irelands meltdown can be nearly entirerly blamed on Charlie McCreevy. The lastest episodes of reeling in the years documents it quite well. (I think it was 2001)

He bailed out a Bank that should have been let sink and in so doing poured tens of billions down the drain. So, in effect, he didn't cause the start of the meltdown but by God he compounded it dramatically and continues to daily by his bumbling.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Seriously, - watch an hour or 2 of Dail proceedings

An hour or two? I'd lose what little will to live I have left!:rolleyes:

DiarmaidGNR

I meant articulate.

DiarmaidGNR

caseyann wrote: »

I watched it hundreds of times,and he seriously can not speak.He is shifty and he also avoids facts and figures.
And explain this to me,with everyone taking their hits on wages and expenses,where are his why arent they taking a big hit in their wages to save the country? While they can certainly hit the less well off no problem?

The more you earn, - the more you have been cut. The lowest earners were cut least.

johngalway

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

The more you earn, - the more you have been cut. The lowest earners were cut least.

The less you earn the more pain is felt by those least cuts.

wolfpawnat

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

The more you earn, - the more you have been cut. The lowest earners were cut least.

Easy to say you are cut the least but you feel it most!!

DiarmaidGNR

southsiderosie wrote: »

Ugh, I cannot believe I am taking the bait.








Brian Cowen became Finance Minister in 2004, a point where the economy was clearly overheating. Since Ireland could not raise interest rates to cool things down, steps should have been taken to use tax or other fiscal policy to curb massive asset inflation. He did nothing, and his boss flamed anyone who dared to challenge the party line on the state of the economy.

In addition, pretty much every budget from 2007 until today has been a complete and absolute fiction when it comes to expected revenues. Cowen was either directly responsible for, or signed off on every single one of those budgets. And today the country is being punished by international markets, in large part due to the government's fiddling with the figures for the last three years.

Finally, he has at no point been willing to show any kind of leadership in confronting entrenched interests in Irish society, whether the Catholic Church, trade unions, or wealthy bankers and developers. He has consistently put the wants of his party over the needs of Irish citizens, with the most obvious example being his party's refusal to hold bye-elections until the courts called their bluff. Leaving three (now four) constituencies without representatives when the state is facing its deepest crisis since its founding is absolutely disgraceful.

In short, Cowen is a terrible leader of both his party and the country, and deserves most of the criticism he receives. And neither his ability to keep figures straight in his head when speaking in public nor the weakness of the opposition leadership negates that.

Is your first point not the role of the financial regulator?

In your second point - "projected revenues" - they are exactly that - projected, - a forecast based on a myriad of factors.

3rd point - I agree. (apart from the by election thing). I actually contacted the minister for education on the whole catholic thing, - shortly after wards the state started buying schools from the catholic church.
Also the way you phrase "Irish citizens" sounds very familiar, I think a certain fine gael politican likes to use similar phrases at least once in every sentence.

And on your final point, - I just don't see it. I realise how easy it is to be pissed off at the government right now, but he is soo much better than Bertie and Charlie (along with the opposition), he really is the best we've got! (doesn't really say much about Irish politicians)

DiarmaidGNR

johngalway wrote: »

The less you earn the more pain is felt by those least cuts.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Easy to say you are cut the least but you feel it most!!

Tell me about it!! - I'm on the dole, but we all have to play our part.

imme

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

He is a qualified barrister. Enda Kenny is a primary school teacher.

Cowen was a solicitor.

The guy doesn't inspire confidence or much else.
He didn't want the job when it was given to him, so why did he take it?

Sir Oxman

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

But who would you rather - Brian Cowen the political leader, or Enda Kenny jackass?

Son, you obviously live under a bridge.

Fair play. Good one.

charlemont

He is a great comic figure, a joke really...

Sir Oxman

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

I think Cowen is a fairly decent person; he's not a corrupt crook (á la Haughey or Bertie) and there's no denying that he is intelligent. But he has been a disaster as Taoiseach.

Perhaps if he had been more careful with his Budgets when he was Finance minister, Ireland would not have suffered as much from the recession as it did. Had he handled the economy better when it mattered and ensured that Ireland would recover from the recession at a pace comparable to other European countries (excluding Iceland and Greece, obviously!) his role and popularity as Taoiseach could have been very, very different. It's all a case as "shoulda woulda coulda" though and history will not look kindly on his time as Taoiseach.

I do admire his resilience and his no-nonsense approach into making the tough decisions needed to fix the economy, but any credit he gets for that is wiped out by the fact that him and Bertie were responsible for those decisions needing to be made in the first place.

So, in essence he isn't actually intelligent at all.

skelliser

Another cunning FF apologist out to defend his leader.

Or is he?!

Read the OP's post, in nearly everyone he attempts to through some mud at Enda Kenny.
Do yourself a favour and run along, ye FF apologists can be seen a mile away at this stage.

It will be a great day in ireland when fianna fail are consigned to the history books.

alentejo

First of all I am not a fan of either FF or Cowen and I blame them there actions between 1997 and 2007.

However, ever since B Cowen took over from Bertie, the government has had some of the most serious economic and banking shocks ever witnessed in any Western economy.

Bank guarantee was a disaster in hindsight, however at the time and on that fateful night in September, based with all the facts at the time, it was a decision which appeared to be correct. Would things have turned out differently? We will never know.

B Cowen is human and has had some very difficult choices to make over the past 3 years. An leader over the past few years would have made some mistakes and most likely would have made the same mistakes as Cowen.

Having said that, I think with the by-elections and the government majority (or lack of it), I think it would be more honest to pass the budget in December and call an election in January.

Guill

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I have to admit, I prefer American politics due to it's entertaining nature, but lately I have been listening/watching Oireachtas sessions online, and I have to admit - I'm loving Brian Cowen!!

He is extremely intelligent.
He is very well spoken (apart from the fat man slur(not a drunken one!)).
He knows figures off by heart.
And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country. (in my own opinion)

All of these qualities seemed to be magnified due to Enda Kennys inadequacies.


Here is Cowens latest speech. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMzUbzDH2IA&feature=sub

Judge for yourself. Plenty of videos of all Dail sessions online.

***NB*** I am not part of any political party, I just call it the way I see it.

I totally agree, whether people like him or not, he is the best man for the job. He will make all the though decisions, everyone will hate him and he will be voted out by the under informed when the job is done.

DiarmaidGNR

skelliser wrote: »

Another cunning FF apologist out to defend his leader.

Or is he?!

Read the OP's post, in nearly everyone he attempts to through some mud at Enda Kenny.
Do yourself a favour and run along, ye FF apologists can be seen a mile away at this stage.

It will be a great day in ireland when fianna fail are consigned to the history books.

I am not with any party. But yes, clearly I hate Enda Kenny, I think he is a jackass, Fine Gael will never get into power while he is their leader.

DiarmaidGNR

alentejo wrote: »

First of all I am not a fan of either FF or Cowen and I blame them for there actions between 1997 and 2007.

However, ever since B Cowen took over from Bertie, the government has had some of the most serious economic and banking shocks ever witnessed in any Western economy.

Bank guarantee was a disaster in hindsight, however at the time and on that fateful night in September, based with all the facts at the time, it was a decision which appeared to be correct. Would things have turned out differently? We will never know.

B Cowen is human and has had some very difficult choices to make over the past 3 years. Any leader over the past few years would have made some mistakes and most likely would have made the same mistakes as Cowen.

Having said that, I think with the by-elections and the government majority (or lack of it), I think it would be more honest to pass the budget in December and call an election in January.

I agree, since 1997 FF have made some terrible decisions, but I don't see why everyone blames Cowen. It was Bertie and Charlie McCreevy!!!!!!!
McCreevy made a mess of the country!!

On the bank guarantee, personally, I think it had to be done. - Imagine the mess the would have followed the collapse of a bank. Instead, now we will have a controlled analysis which will in some cases will lead to a controlled dismantlement over time.

DiarmaidGNR

Guill wrote: »

I totally agree, whether people like him or not, he is the best man for the job. He will make all the though decisions, everyone will hate him and he will be voted out by the under informed when the job is done.

Well said.
It pisses me off to know he will be voted out.

dan_d

Actually I think Brian Cowen is quite an intelligent man - have been reliably informed of that by people who worked with him before he became taoiseach.

However I think that, in an effort to not court the media (ie he doesn't really care what the media think!!), he's shot himself in the foot. We've been through a terrible financial crisis and he could have done with saying something - anything - in the last 2 years. I'm not looking for an Obama-style speech. But anything!! Personally I don't want a Bertie Ahern-style leader who loves seeing the media. Cowen's style suits me okay, but NOT when we are having this kind of a crisis.

To carry this further, the more I hear Brian Lenihan speak, the more time I have for the man. I was listening to him the other evening on some radio programme....explaining the same facts to the same stupid journalist asking the same stupid questions that have been asked and answered at least once every single day in the last 2 years. The man kept his patience - if it had been me in his position, I wouldn't have. He must be seriously pi&%ed off answering the same rubbish day in and day out.

Now I won't go out and say Brian Lenihan should lead FF. I think the way things are at the moment is just fine. Well, as fine as it can be given our situation. Dress it up any way you will, there has to be cuts, and it doesn't matter who is in Government - they have to be done.Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. We don't need a general election right now...our budget announcements are causing havoc in the market place, can you imagine what would happen if we went out and said well, we've got a plan, we know what cuts we're making, but actually, we're voting out this crowd and voting in a new (and very uncertain combination) crowd?? Havoc would be a nice word...I'm pretty sure Ireland Inc would come to a dead stop. It wouldn't be pretty.

So yeah. I'm not a FF fan. In fact, I'm not really a politician fan in general. But I think the 2 Brians are doing the best they can at this point with the absolutely rubbish situation they inherited from Ahern and McCreevy. I think maybe they need to deal a bit more harshly with unions, stand up to them a lot more, but other than that they're doing okay lately. Looking at it objectively and trying not to be bitter about the state I find myself in, even.

DiarmaidGNR

dan_d wrote: »

Actually I think Brian Cowen is quite an intelligent man - have been reliably informed of that by people who worked with him before he became taoiseach.

However I think that, in an effort to not court the media (ie he doesn't really care what the media think!!), he's shot himself in the foot. We've been through a terrible financial crisis and he could have done with saying something - anything - in the last 2 years. I'm not looking for an Obama-style speech. But anything!! Personally I don't want a Bertie Ahern-style leader who loves seeing the media. Cowen's style suits me okay, but NOT when we are having this kind of a crisis.

To carry this further, the more I hear Brian Lenihan speak, the more time I have for the man. I was listening to him the other evening on some radio programme....explaining the same facts to the same stupid journalist asking the same stupid questions that have been asked and answered at least once every single day in the last 2 years. The man kept his patience - if it had been me in his position, I wouldn't have. He must be seriously pi&%ed off answering the same rubbish day in and day out.

Now I won't go out and say Brian Lenihan should lead FF. I think the way things are at the moment is just fine. Well, as fine as it can be given our situation. Dress it up any way you will, there has to be cuts, and it doesn't matter who is in Government - they have to be done.Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. We don't need a general election right now...our budget announcements are causing havoc in the market place, can you imagine what would happen if we went out and said well, we've got a plan, we know what cuts we're making, but actually, we're voting out this crowd and voting in a new (and very uncertain combination) crowd?? Havoc would be a nice word...I'm pretty sure Ireland Inc would come to a dead stop. It wouldn't be pretty.

So yeah. I'm not a FF fan. In fact, I'm not really a politician fan in general. But I think the 2 Brians are doing the best they can at this point with the absolutely rubbish situation they inherited from Ahern and McCreevy. I think maybe they need to deal a bit more harshly with unions, stand up to them a lot more, but other than that they're doing okay lately. Looking at it objectively and trying not to be bitter about the state I find myself in, even.

I totally agree! Any instability (viewed from the outside) will cause havoc with the interest rates on the countries borrowings.

I never understood the whole thing about him not being in the media enough, the way it is suits me fine as well.

I feel the same about Lenihan, he did some great interviews for bloomberg tv. If you watch the link in my original post, you will see Cowen does great speeches, and if you search on youtube for his interviews - you will see they are great as well.

Nobody seems to realise that Bertie and McCreevy are to blame for the situation.

storker

I see the problem as being less about how they're doing now versus how anyone else would manage, than it is about simple accountability. Although how ploughing ahead with the bank bailout despite expensive expert advise to do otherwise and showing a complete lack of leadership on the subject of cuts and not really making tough decisions at all, just harsh ones qualifies as doing a good job has yet to be explained. (Genuinely tough decisions would involve mercs, perks, quangos and the dismantling of the Croke Park Agreement).

They're trying to tax their way out of a recession, which goes contrary to economics 101, at least as far as I understand it. They are worried about everyone except the ordinary people who actually live in this state. "Yes, Sir, Mr Banker, Yes Sir, Mr Bondholder, three bags full, Mr Eurocrat, f**k off and suck it up, Mr Citizen". They are not prepared to lead by example, or to allow the democratic process to proceed. They know so little about anything themselves that they will do the bidding of anyone who appears to know more than they do. So if all that counts as doing a good job, then in some warped-dimension alternative reality, then I gues they must be.

The problem with supporting them now, though, either morally or with a vote, is that you cannot do so and be in favour of political accountability. Politicians are only accountable at elections and losing power is the only penalty they understand. Anyone who supports them now is tacitly saying that accountability is optional and is happy to reward the last 15 years of abysmal mismanagement.

Stork

bladespin

Brina Cowen, where to start, as minister for finance his policies pretty much caused all the mess we're in, as leader he disappeared when he was needed, he hides from the people he's supposed to lead, when he does come out of hiding it's to deny all and defend the government (pretty indefensible really).

He presents himself in the worst light (morning interview) and does nothing to allay the fears of the people.

All in all, I'd confidently say he's the worst taoiseach we've had (except maybe Dev).

DiarmaidGNR

bladespin wrote: »

Brina Cowen, where to start, as minister for finance his policies pretty much caused all the mess we're in, as leader he disappeared when he was needed, he hides from the people he's supposed to lead, when he does come out of hiding it's to deny all and defend the government (pretty indefensible really).

He presents himself in the worst light (morning interview) and does nothing to allay the fears of the people.

All in all, I'd confidently say he's the worst taoiseach we've had (except maybe Dev).

Charlie McCreevy caused the mess along with his main man Bertie.
But If you still believe it was Cowen, - Explain what specifics that caused our recession. (specifics implemented by Cowen)

If you want a Taoiseach that spends all of their time in the media spotlight, instead of working, you really have misplaced priorities.

paulaa

Cowen just carried on in the same vein as Bertie and McCreevy. He is now taking tough decisions yes, but only because he is under orders and intense scrutiny from the EU. Why didn't he start making decisions like this long ago. He spent billions on advisors and then promptly ignored their advice.

The man is an arrogant, power-hungry buffoon who is totally out of his depth and totally unsuited to run a country.

Is this thread a pre-emptive strike to counter the news today that Cowen was indeed aware of the threats to Anglo back as far as 2007 ? He has denied he knew what was happening until September 2008, but now it seems he has lied about that.

The story is in both the Daily Mail and the Indo today

Cowen knew that the fiscal roof was falling in when, as Finance Minister in late 2007, he involved himself in the Anglo Irish Bank crisis, setting up a kitchen cabinet to advise him on the detail and provide information about the bank's circumstances. Even then, the bank's fate was becoming perilous. Cowen claimed that he first heard of the problems in Anglo-Irish in September 2008. Yet he was at an Anglo Irish board dinner in April of that year where the discussion was exclusively about the problems faced by Anglo Irish Bank.

A major contributor to these problems was Sean Quinn, of Quinn Insurance. Quite openly and deliberately, in Cowen's presence, the discussion was focused on these financial difficulties. These were seriously aggravated by heavy gambling at the time with Contracts For Difference (CFD) which ultimately came to represent a quarter of Anglo Irish Bank shares.

Cowen promised intervention with the National Treasury Management Agency in order to get them to put deposits with Anglo. He knew this was necessary. Despite Cowen claiming he had told them to step in, the NTMA failed to follow this course.

The Financial Regulator, who has been generally characterised in the media as having been asleep at the wheel, was in fact in close contact with the bank and knew what had to be done. His hand was stayed, however, by sustained protection of Sean Quinn. Fianna Fail, including Cowen, were lobbying for Quinn. The Financial Regulator knew that Quinn was taking money from his insurance company -- picked up by the bank's auditors, PWC of Belfast -- and that this was illegal on two counts. However, Quinn was "untouchable".

The Financial Regulator, the Department of Finance, Morgan Stanley and Anglo Irish Bank all knew that the CFDs spelt death for the bank and the regulator should have picked up on them.

Instead, the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank and the Department of Finance, with Cowen's knowledge, were allowing Sean Quinn to take money from his insurance company and gamble it through the bank.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-government-has-discredited-ireland-2409820.html

DiarmaidGNR

storker wrote: »

I see the problem as being less about how they're doing now versus how anyone else would manage, than it is about simple accountability. Although how ploughing ahead with the bank bailout despite expensive expert advise to do otherwise and showing a complete lack of leadership on the subject of cuts and not really making tough decisions at all, just harsh ones qualifies as doing a good job has yet to be explained. (Genuinely tough decisions would involve mercs, perks, quangos and the dismantling of the Croke Park Agreement).

They're trying to tax their way out of a recession, which goes contrary to economics 101, at least as far as I understand it. They are worried about everyone except the ordinary people who actually live in this state. "Yes, Sir, Mr Banker, Yes Sir, Mr Bondholder, three bags full, Mr Eurocrat, f**k off and suck it up, Mr Citizen". They are not prepared to lead by example, or to allow the democratic process to proceed. They know so little about anything themselves that they will do the bidding of anyone who appears to know more than they do. So if all that counts as doing a good job, then in some warped-dimension alternative reality, then I gues they must be.

The problem with supporting them now, though, either morally or with a vote, is that you cannot do so and be in favour of political accountability. Politicians are only accountable at elections and losing power is the only penalty they understand. Anyone who supports them now is tacitly saying that accountability is optional and is happy to reward the last 15 years of abysmal mismanagement.

Stork

1 - Most experts said to do the bailout.
2 - They aren't trying to tax there way out, they are reducing spending. (I don't think a 1 or even 2% rise counts, - probably coming in next budget.) The rest of your second paragraph was the biggest load of ****e ever.
3 - They are best of a bad bunch.
4 - This thread was about Cowen, not Bertie. (Bertie was a jackass, along with McCreevy)

Coillte_Bhoy

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Is your first point not the role of the financial regulator?

Ah, no it's not. You dont seem to clued up on these things do you?

DiarmaidGNR

paulaa wrote: »

Cowen just carried on in the same vein as Bertie and McCreevy. He is now taking tough decisions yes, but only because he is under orders and intense scrutiny from the EU. Why didn't he start making decisions like this long ago. He spent billions on advisors and then promptly ignored their advice.

The man is an arrogant, power-hungry buffoon who is totally out of his depth and totally unsuited to run a country.

Is this thread a pre-emptive strike to counter the news today that Cowen was indeed aware of the threats to Anglo back as far as 2007 ? He has denied he knew what was happening until September 2008, but now it seems he has lied about that.

The story is in both the Daily Mail and the Indo today



http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-government-has-discredited-ireland-2409820.html

The Irish Independent is far from a neutral paper - (pure FineGael).
Did you not know the above before now? - In 2007 he ordered an in depth analysis but didn't get the results until months after.

Also, who started this rumor that he didn't take advice? - He took the best advice at the time.