'Women only' groups

Valmont

I distinctly remember the ubiquitous "1 in 4" statistic being rubbished here a few months ago. It's disheartening seeing some of the same proponents from that argument throwing such outright lies around again so easily. I've come to expect little else from hardcore feminist groups and I suppose that is because their ideological foundations are apparently built on sand.

ntlbell

liah wrote: »

For all of you scoffing at the amount of women under 25 stat, I urge you to speak to every single one of your female friends about it.

From my experience and the experiences of every single one of my female friends, each one of us have dealt with physical sexual harassment or abuse at at least one point in our lives.

This includes unprovoked ass-slapping and boob-grabbing all the way up to abuse and rape.

No man has the right to grab me whenever he feels like it unless I've given permission to do so. Why those men think they're above this, like they're entitled to us, I don't know. But I cannot count the amount of times I've been out and had my ass grabbed or been grabbed around the waist or pulled over to a guy or a variety of other things. And there's no way in hell I'd be vain enough to think this only happens to me. I'd wager it happens to nearly everyone.

This isn't even including general harassment such as wolf-whistles and sexual things shouted at me from across the street and passing comments.. and I won't even get into the 'net. That's a different sort of demon altogether.

So for all you men saying there's no way it's 1/4, talk to your female mates. I'm an average-looking girl, it's not like I'm a stunner or anything-- if it can happen to me on this scale it can happen to anyone. Ask them if a stranger has ever grabbed their ass or any other wide variety of things.

I honestly think the figures will surprise you.

I don't think "talking to your mates" is grounds to be pulling out stats like 1 in 4.

it's hear say nonsense.

There's some women who say things like they were sexually harrased even raped because they think it shows they're attractive. :rolleyes:

LenaClaire

ntlbell wrote: »

Try and make a few public houses in dublin city men only.

uproar, bra burning the lot. we would never hear the end of it.

The women's book clubs that I have seen meet in public places where men are welcome, the women just sit around a table and talk. They don't take over a pub and bar the doors to all men. I am sure if you wanted to grab a table at your local coffee shop and have a men's discussion group no one would bat an eye.

Permabear

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ntlbell

jujibee wrote: »

The women's book clubs that I have seen meet in public places where men are welcome, the women just sit around a table and talk. They don't take over a pub and bar the doors to all men. I am sure if you wanted to grab a table at your local coffee shop and have a men's discussion group no one would bat an eye.

then why bother calling it a womens book club and not just a book club?

seems bizzare.

Mark Hamill

southsiderosie wrote: »

This. It is nice to have a conversation with people who take your feelings at face value and don't try to tell you to suck it up or you are just being silly.

Its tiring to have people on here imply that men are all gob****es who can only be condescending to women.

southsiderosie wrote: »

There are certain experiences that women have that men generally do not. Women give birth. Women are judged more on their appearance than men. Women get brazilian waxes. These are things that women like to discuss with other women.

You need book clubs to discuss brazilian waxes?

southsiderosie wrote: »

I would also say as a woman and an ethnic minority, that I do belong to some 'identity' groups, in part because it is, again, nice to not have to justify my feelings all the damn time.

How does belonging to an identity group mean you dont have to justify your feelings? Why is justifying your feelings a bad thing? Do you think that if we had groups and services that catered purely for your ethnic minority ("ethnic minority book clubs") that issues related to discrimination of your ethnic minority would actually improve?

LenaClaire

ntlbell wrote: »

I don't think "talking to your mates" is grounds to be pulling out stats like 1 in 4.

it's hear say nonsense.

There's some women who say things like they were sexually harrased even raped because they think it shows they're attractive. :rolleyes:

Wow, that is really offensive. I would say that the vast majority of women would deny being assaulted because of humiliation and fear. As Liah pointed out harassment can include shouts, grab and anything up to flat out assault. I think you are seriously under estimating the experience of most women.

LenaClaire

ntlbell wrote: »

then why bother calling it a womens book club and not just a book club?

seems bizzare.

Because we don't fear that a man might over hear our discussion? I am sorry I don't understand your point. A group of women get together to discuss a book, hence a woman's book club. The fact that the discussion is not locked away in some super secret women's club does not mean it does not have a female focus.

liah

Just to clarify my earlier post, I'm not trying to say that it literally is 1 in 4. I have no proof for that. I'm just saying that if you actually talk to real-life women about this kind of stuff and ask them how many times they've been grabbed or touched by strangers the figures will surprise you.

I'd say the figure is actually quite close to that, regardless of any studies, just from the simple fact that I've never met a girl who it hasn't happened to.

ntlbell

jujibee wrote: »

Wow, that is really offensive. I would say that the vast majority of women would deny being assaulted because of humiliation and fear. As Liah pointed out harassment can include shouts, grab and anything up to flat out assault. I think you are seriously under estimating the experience of most women.

the vast majority of people may very well deny it, that doesn't mean what I said doesn't happen.

I came across girls in school and if they were raped or harrassed as often as they claimed it would mean practically everyone in the town had a go.

I'm sorry you're offended but that's the reality of the situation, I would have thought pitty would have been more appropiate tho.

Mark Hamill

jujibee wrote: »

My last two years of secondary school were in an all girls school. During the day 80% of the girls did not wear make up and the nuns had to nag us to brush our hair. Of course the second school was over the bathrooms were filled with girls doing hair and make-up before they went out for the afternoon. When it was just girls we dressed as we pleased, it was refreshing not to worry about your appearance - and lets face it - when you are 16 your appearance is a big worry.

Your personal experience is fairly unique. my sisters wore as much make up as they could get away with.

jujibee wrote: »

But back to the main point. How is my going to a book club once a month hurting anyone?

How is it going to help solve the issues that drive you to wanting a unisex book club in the first place? I realise it may seem that I'm saying you need to fight all these battles all the time, but nothing ever changes until you change it, and creating unisex groups doesn't deal with gender issues, it just makes them rarer because interaction is rarer.

jujibee wrote: »

Can you honestly tell me you never just hang out with male friends?

No, not on purpose (ie I dont go looking for male only enviroments, I just hang out with whatever friends are around).

LenaClaire

Valmont wrote: »

I distinctly remember the ubiquitous "1 in 4" statistic being rubbished here a few months ago. It's disheartening seeing some of the same proponents from that argument throwing such outright lies around again so easily. I've come to expect little else from hardcore feminist groups and I suppose that is because their ideological foundations are apparently built on sand.

I'm sorry but how does wanting a book club mean we are hard core feminists? It seems that anytime a woman brings up the fact that women have different life experiences than men we are feminists?

ntlbell

jujibee wrote: »

Because we don't fear that a man might over hear our discussion? I am sorry I don't understand your point. A group of women get together to discuss a book, hence a woman's book club. The fact that the discussion is not locked away in some super secret women's club does not mean it does not have a female focus.

you're saying men are more than welcome to join both men and women.

as far as i know normal book clubs are open to men and women

so why is it a womens book club and not a book club?

do you see the point/question?

Permabear

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LenaClaire

ntlbell wrote: »

the vast majority of people may very well deny it, that doesn't mean what I said doesn't happen.

I came across girls in school and if they were raped or harrassed as often as they claimed it would mean practically everyone in the town had a go.

I'm sorry you're offended but that's the reality of the situation, I would have thought pitty would have been more appropiate tho.

I am not saying that there has never been someone to falsely accuse someone of harassment but to downplay all rape and assault statistics because of it is what is offensive.

Nevyn

ntlbell wrote: »

Try and make a few public houses in dublin city men only.

uproar, bra burning the lot. we would never hear the end of it.

A 'Public house' can not turn away people based on gender, they would loose their leince, but there is nothing what so ever stopping a group of men hiring the function room for their gathering.

ntlbell

jujibee wrote: »

I am not saying that there has never been someone to falsely accuse someone of harassment but to downplay all rape and assault statistics because of it is what is offensive.

I'm not down playing them

I'm stating you cannot come up with statistics because of talking to your female friends.

I'm playing down hearsay, not stats.

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

I would feel more pressure to be attractive if I was going to be in a mixed group with men who I might find attractive, particularly if I was single. If I was going over to a mates house for a book club I would not feel that pressure. Call me crazy!

Like jujibee, i dont think you are representative of most girls.

Kooli wrote: »

I don't really understand your point about the low self-esteem. Sometimes I like having discussions where the goal isn't to be right. The goal is to have a discussion and to draw out others' points of view. I don't particularly enjoy having to debate and defend each point I make. (Other times I actually do like the more argumentative discussions where people's points are picked apart. Just sometimes I don't). I don't really see the connection to my self esteem.

To me, discussion are about finding out what is right, thats the point. If you just draw out peoples ideas but never evaluate them, then you haven't accomplished anything, its a waste of time. I think a lot of problems in this world would be solved if people would justify all their opinions. I think just by trying, most people would be forced to throw out a lot of the baseless crap they hold to.

Kooli wrote: »

And finally, I am not talking about a global women's point of view. I am under no illusions that we all have the same opinion on anything. But if I want to talk about my experience of being a woman, or an experience I've had from the point of view of being a women, then sometimes I just can't be arsed trying to argue that point or justify it to a man who doesn't understand it.

You are assuming that a woman would automatically understand your point where the man cant. I dont see why, unless you are just looking for someone to agree with you.

LenaClaire

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How is it going to help solve the issues that drive you to wanting a unisex book club in the first place? I realise it may seem that I'm saying you need to fight all these battles all the time, but nothing ever changes until you change it, and creating unisex groups doesn't deal with gender issues, it just makes them rarer because interaction is rarer.

Why do you think I am engaging in this discussion? Because I think this needs to be talked about but frankly it is giving me a headache. I feel like you are saying that even though women have many, many experiences that make them wary around men they should never admit that and should just go trooping on as if everything is already perfect when it is not. That every time we feel like we are being mistreated or condescended to we need to scream and shout, we have been for years and things are slowly changing buts sometimes you just get tired and want to not have to argue every point.

And I want to clarify, I have never, ever said that all men are bad or condescending. I have clearly stated again and again that most men are fine but there are a few that never learn and that make women furious because a lot of the time they are the ones that are most vocal.

maggy_thatcher

Kooli, let's change your post slightly:

OK seriously, we're talking about a book club here (for most of these posts that has been the example used). That is not complete segregation. In the rest of our lives we are working with white people, living with white people, studying with white people, training with white people, doing hobbies with white people.

And despite all that time we spend 'integrated', and despite your assertion that there is no difference between white people and black people, there are STILL white people that find the company of white people more comfortable for certain defined activities. Not all activities. Not even necessarily one activity all the time. It really is such a small issue. One hour a month maybe? Why do you still insist that these white people are wrong in wanting this? Can't you accept that maybe you don't understand what drives them to seek this out, but that doesn't mean there isn't something genuine and valid there?

Should we ban 'whites nights out' and 'blacks nights out' too? Because it is our duty to avoid all types of segregation? And of course you would agree that here is no difference between a whites night out and night out that involves blacks, whites and mixed-race, because we are all the same?

Or, let's try:

OK seriously, we're talking about a book club here (for most of these posts that has been the example used). That is not complete segregation. In the rest of our lives we are working with gays, living with gays, studying with gays, training with gays, doing hobbies with gays.

And despite all that time we spend 'integrated', and despite your assertion that there is no difference between gays and straights, there are STILL straights that find the company of straights more comfortable for certain defined activities. Not all activities. Not even necessarily one activity all the time. It really is such a small issue. One hour a month maybe? Why do you still insist that these straights are wrong in wanting this? Can't you accept that maybe you don't understand what drives them to seek this out, but that doesn't mean there isn't something genuine and valid there?

Should we ban 'straights nights out' and 'gays nights out' too? Because it is our duty to avoid all types of segregation? And of course you would agree that here is no difference between a straights night out and night out that involves gays, straights and couples, because we are all the same?

I assume you find both of these acceptable?

Permabear

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GobBluth

liah wrote: »

I'm just saying that if you actually talk to real-life women about this kind of stuff and ask them how many times they've been grabbed or touched by strangers the figures will surprise you.

Please don't tell me you're talking about drunken carry on in pubs and clubs? If you are then I'd say 3 in 4 women (and men) have been victims of sexually harassment. I know I have (numerous times!), of course sometimes (most times) I've enjoyed it!

Also, to get back on point, the OP made a bad example of talking about a book club, nobody would care about a male only book club, but he does have a point.

I'm sure it's been mentioned already but Portmarnock Golf Club has been taking to the courts at least twice because they don't allow women to join.

Mark Hamill

jujibee wrote: »

I feel like you are saying that even though women have many, many experiences that make them wary around men they should never admit that and should just go trooping on as if everything is already perfect when it is not.

Strawman, show me where I said anything to that effect.

jujibee wrote: »

That every time we feel like we are being mistreated or condescended to we need to scream and shout, we have been for years and things are slowly changing buts sometimes you just get tired and want to not have to argue every point.

Really? Cause I'm pretty sure I said you should talk to the people whose job it is to keep the peace wherever you are being harassed eg doormen, management, mods etc

jujibee wrote: »

And I want to clarify, I have never, ever said that all men are bad or condescending. I have clearly stated again and again that most men are fine but there are a few that never learn and that make women furious because a lot of the time they are the ones that are most vocal.

Get them throw out then?
When you get annoyed and leave and make your own clubs, what do you think happens to the men? Do you think the see the error of their ways now that you are gone?

LenaClaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think partly that is because for a very, very long time being female was vastly restrictive and women have spent a lot of time fighting that. There are still experiences that women have that are different to men. I still don't understand why a one hour book club is so upsetting to people.

I don't only identify myself as only female and I am involved in many activities that are based on interests and other issues. I equate women's book clubs to any other meeting of people. There are groups for expats and homosexuals and religious people and sorts of other demographics. Should they never meet because they are isolating themselves?

CDfm

I have seen some studies that are fairly biased and having worked in market research would be sceptical of some studies.

That said, there is a lot of "Allo darlin" stuff that does go on in offices etc. I wouldn't pat my doctors bum or put my arm around my dental hygenists waist and call her love, yet I have a friend who is a senior technical manager in a big company 2,000 + who gets this.

I am sure some people are hyper sensitive about personal space.

A few years ago I was dating someone and when we were out a senior colleague pawed her -that is the only word I can use. I worked closely with the guy but soon after left. Its like the guitarist Jeff Beck says " its flattering but you don't need it".

If it happened today, I would certainly discuss it with personnel and its only after reflecting on the thread that I remember just how uncomfortable I felt about it at the time.

the_syco

Thaedydal wrote: »

I said single sex schooling is a factor.

Single sex schooling can be benifical to males, as they are not distracted by the females. This of course is not the females fault, it's just that if boys becoming men whilst surrounded by the opposite sex, they'll be distracted. Females benifit, as they'll have less distractions caused by males. I was in a mixed sex scool, and looking back, jeasus they were immature if a pretty face came into the class.

jujibee wrote: »

I personally have never been attacked or molested by a woman, so in my experience, yes, it is a gender issue.

I've seen men attacked by women and men. Unfortunately, they don't think they can punch women in the face, and kick them in the head, if the women attack them first, for no reason (other than her being drunk, and thinking the man looks like their ex).

The difference is that if a man is attacked by a man for no reason, the victims' friends have his back, and beat lumps out of the attacker. If a woman attacks him, they're less inclined to get involved.

Kooli wrote: »

I haven't heard one man say they actually want to be a member of these women-only groups, or know of a man who wants to be in one, they just don't want women to be allowed/facilitated/encouraged to have them.

Glad to see that you have nothing against male-only clubs. Oh, wait, they're sexist. But women-only groups empower the women. Although I don't care about women only groups, I do care that men-only groups are labeled as sexist, but women groups are not.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The cubs and scouts were mixed, but there wasn't much else to do, besides the girls weren't better at talking to the boys seeing as most went to all girls schools too.

The Catholic Boys Scouts of Ireland, otherwise known as the CBSI, but now the CSI, were once male only, as were the girl-guides female only. The beavers, cubs, scouts and ventures were once all male. Girls were only let in in the past 20 years or so. And I welcome it, although not many women were up to it. Those that were, were great craic.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Many young people are confused about what rape is due to how it is portrayed and end up in abusive relationships when they are young as they try to make sense of it all.

I think his point is that if the questions are vague, but the stats are black and white, it makes the report seem very biased, almost to the point that you see an agenda.

CDfm

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have to say it Donegalfella -you have a lovely way with words.

Every word in its right place and not one I would change or edit.

LenaClaire

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Really? Cause I'm pretty sure I said you should talk to the people whose job it is to keep the peace wherever you are being harassed eg doormen, management, mods etc

A lot of the time you are alone or the "people in charge" are involved. I have reported instances that I think are inappropriate to mods and they have not agreed with my assessment. I appreciate that there are times when we can ask for help and will receive it but my point is I should not have to ask for help. I know it is not a perfect world and it never will be but I can't help wishing for it.

Get them throw out then?
When you get annoyed and leave and make your own clubs, what do you think happens to the men? Do you think the see the error of their ways now that you are gone?

But you see that is the point. By calling it a woman's book club we are making it clear that we don't want to have to deal with that. I have known several women's book clubs that had male members. The point is not to exclude men. The point is to discuss issues pertaining to women. I bet if you found a women's book club and you asked to join on the condition that you followed their charter that most would welcome you (I would not say all because some are strictly female for various reasons). We don't want to exclude men but we want a place to discuss our issues and fears with out worrying that we are going to be labeled as feminazis or what ever the going term is.

Nevyn

donegalfella wrote: »

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And we have groups for Homosexuals both men and women and we have ones for bisexuals and those who are kink and those who are poly and there are socs for french people living in Ireland. All of whom share thier experience in common living in society and gain from the support they get in those groups and there is nothing wrong with it nor with male and female only groups.

Permabear

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