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'Women only' groups
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This whole argument seems a bit mad.
I haven't heard one man say they actually want to be a member of these women-only groups, or know of a man who wants to be in one, they just don't want women to be allowed/facilitated/encouraged to have them.
I don't see what harm they are doing at ALL! If they provide a space for a defined group to feel comfortable doing an activity with people they identify with, without any of the dynamics present that often accompany a mixed-sex environment, then I don't see who gets hurt.
Some here seem to be trying to claim that they are somehow causing or contributing to the casual sexism prevalent in society, when in fact it should be completely obvious they are more likely to be a response to it.0 -
I am not trolling, I also went to single sex schools and went to girl guides but my parents also made sure I had other mixed gendered social outlets and encouraged me to take part in mini companies and schools debates and chess club where there would be boys there,
You think my parents didn't? How many hours do you think is left in the day when you take out school and sleep? How could taking part in mini companies, school debates and chess clubs help me when I was in all boys school? There where no mixed ones, because there was no girls schools around.
The cubs and scouts were mixed, but there wasn't much else to do, besides the girls weren't better at talking to the boys seeing as most went to all girls schools too.my father took great pains to demystify boys for me and to make sure I was able to hold my own in mixed company or if I happened to be only woman among men.
Your father taught you how to talk to boys your own age? He demystified the mind of teenage boys for you? You realise how ridiculous that sounds, right?I consider it part of a parents duty to do their best to prepare their child to be able to function in the world around them, to my mind on that account your parents failed you.
What did you expect them to do, given how little time I had during the day outside of school? Give me special "talking to girls" classes?And how exactly does that work? My adult mother or father trying to explain to me, a preteen or teenage boy how a similar aged girls mind works? How can you do that without lots and lots of experience, the experience you would get if schools were mixed?0 -
donegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.
Many young people are confused about what rape is due to how it is portrayed and end up in abusive relationships when they are young as they try to make sense of it all.
But I think that women only spaces are on the rise not due to fear but due to being weary of the rise in casual sexism on society.0 -
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Mark Hamill wrote: »You think my parents didn't? How many hours do you think is left in the day when you take out school and sleep? How could taking part in mini companies, school debates and chess clubs help me when I was in all boys school? There where no mixed ones, because there was no girls schools around.
The cubs and scouts were mixed, but there wasn't much else to do, besides the girls weren't better at talking to the boys seeing as most went to all girls schools too.
Part of the tragedy of this country which plays out in pubs and nightclubs every weekend as people take on enough dutch courage to talk to the other gender.Mark Hamill wrote: »Your father taught you how to talk to boys your own age? He demystified the mind of teenage boys for you? You realise how ridiculous that sounds, right?
Not at all, it is one of the many things I am thankful for.Mark Hamill wrote: »What did you expect them to do, given how little time I had during the day outside of school? Give me special "talking to girls" classes?And how exactly does that work? My adult mother or father trying to explain to me, a preteen or teenage boy how a similar aged girls mind works? How can you do that without lots and lots of experience, the experience you would get if schools were mixed?
Why not? and if not your parent some other older person in your life who is a positive influence on you. Seems daft to leave such a gap in a young person's education.0 -
But I think that women only spaces are on the rise not due to fear but due to being weary of the rise in casual sexism on society.
I'd say that's a huge part of it.
Other reasons I would see would include
- wanting a space where there are no sexual dynamics, no flirting, no pressure to be 'attractive'
- wanting the type of interaction that is more typical in all-female groups (I know lots of people, including women, have disagreed with me on that one but I genuinely do find discussions with women to be less argumentative, more collaborative and less competitive, with less pressure to be right or to be funny!)
- wanting to talk about things from a female point of view without being told that the female point of view is 'not true' (like what's happening in this thread!)0 -
Many young people are confused about what rape is due to how it is portrayed and end up in abusive relationships when they are young as they try to make sense of it all.
But I think that women only spaces are on the rise not due to fear but due to being weary of the rise in casual sexism on society.
If that's the case it might not be a great idea to be thrown around stats who were provided by and answered by possibly confused women?0 -
This whole argument seems a bit mad.
I haven't heard one man say they actually want to be a member of these women-only groups, or know of a man who wants to be in one, they just don't want women to be allowed/facilitated/encouraged to have them.
I don't see what harm they are doing at ALL! If they provide a space for a defined group to feel comfortable doing an activity with people they identify with, without any of the dynamics present that often accompany a mixed-sex environment, then I don't see who gets hurt.
Some here seem to be trying to claim that they are somehow causing or contributing to the casual sexism prevalent in society, when in fact it should be completely obvious they are more likely to be a response to it.
I would imagine most men have little or no interest in any of their groups.
Women spend years fighting men only bars and blah blah blah
then, they go and do exactly the same thing they were fighting against?0 -
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If those mixed environments were welcoming to women and didn't expect women to be like men in them then you would see change.
Strawman. Since when do mixed enviroments expect women to be like men? None of the mixed situations in college I've come across (various societies, sports clubs, acedemic meetings) have.Women dont' need to be protected from that shíte, women jsut get fed up of putting up with it and being attacked when they point it out so they get pissed of with the lack of change and choose to walk away and seclude themselves from the idiocy.
And yet still expect change to happen? Theres the idiocy.
Speaking of idiocy.Mark Hamill wrote:It just seems like its building up ot someone asking "well seeing as a woman now cant read a book with a man, why the hell should I employ one to work with a man (or a man to work with her)?"
The only idiocy here is in your response. Or can you explain why someone couldn't come to the conclusion I outlined?Yup should have said 1 in 6.
Where did you get that from?In work there is some level of protection, professional conduct is expected and there reporting procedures and penalties for anyone of either gender who behaves in an unacceptable fashion.
And, what, this just doesn't exist in gyms or private book clubs or protest groups or something?0 -
The primary concern I'd have would be that, while they can provide an environment where a sex can feel "more at ease", they do nothing to combat the cause.I don't see what harm they are doing at ALL!
So, while the Curves gym provides an environment where a woman can feel she can sweat to her hearts content without having to worry about looking bad in front of men - this does nothing only compound the underlying issue that women feel objectified!
Women should be able to go to a gym and sweat regardless of whos looking because, humans, when exercising, sweat.
As for the "nearly all women will have been sexually assaulted in some manner by the time the [sic] reach 25" tripe... Utter bullshit!0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »The only idiocy here is in your response. Or can you explain why someone couldn't come to the conclusion I outlined?
Oh come on!
First of all, no one is saying 'a woman can't read a book with a man', so I needn't even read the rest of the sentence, because no one actually said that.
Secondly, even if you replaced it with the more accurate 'some women prefer to discuss literature in women-only settings', I still don't see how that logically leads on to 'so why should I employ one to work with a man?'
Perhaps you could explain the employer mindset you are describing?0 -
This whole argument seems a bit mad.
I haven't heard one man say they actually want to be a member of these women-only groups, or know of a man who wants to be in one, they just don't want women to be allowed/facilitated/encouraged to have them.
I don't see what harm they are doing at ALL! If they provide a space for a defined group to feel comfortable doing an activity with people they identify with, without any of the dynamics present that often accompany a mixed-sex environment, then I don't see who gets hurt.
Some here seem to be trying to claim that they are somehow causing or contributing to the casual sexism prevalent in society, when in fact it should be completely obvious they are more likely to be a response to it.
And, as a response, they do nothing to remove it.
I am not saying they should exist or that I want in, its no hair off my back (unfortunately:(). I am just pointing out that they work against the idea of gender equality.
Gender inequality is wrong because, bar the biological, there is nothing fundamentally different between men and womenl, the differences are due to individual personalities being different. "Women only" groups and services, imo, contradict this, by claiming that there is something more between men and women, something that will effect only women in such a way they cant fix it and so have to segregate themselves (if only for the short time they partake of that service).
Given that this idea would be reprehensible if employed in the workplace (lets start describing housework as "women only" employment, because men are too boistorous to use a hoover and wash the dishes and see how far that gets us) it just seems ridiculous that its accepted in the recreational parts of life.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »And, as a response, they do nothing to remove it.
.
OK seriously, we're talking about a book club here (for most of these posts that has been the example used). That is not complete segregation. In the rest of our lives we are working with men, living with men, studying with men, training with men, doing hobbies with men.
And despite all that time we spend 'integrated', and despite your assertion that there is no difference between men and women, there are STILL women that find the company of women more comfortable for certain defined activities. Not all activities. Not even necessarily one activity all the time. It really is such a small issue. One hour a month maybe? Why do you still insist that these women are wrong in wanting this? Can't you accept that maybe you don't understand what drives them to seek this out, but that doesn't mean there isn't something genuine and valid there?
Should we ban 'lads nights out' and 'girls nights out' too? Because it is our duty to avoid all types of segregation? And of course you would agree that here is no difference between a lads night out and night out that involves lads, girls and couples, because we are all the same?0 -
Not at all, it is one of the many things I am thankful for.
But how do you know he didn't give you some skewed view of men, seeing as he was (I assume) at least 20 years older than the guys he was talking about? You cant know without actual experience.Why not? and if not your parent some other older person in your life who is a positive influence on you. Seems daft to leave such a gap in a young person's education.
And how would an older person understand the mind of a girl my age? I'm in my 20s, I'm fine with girls near my age now but I dont understand young teen girls! (Justin Bieber and Twilight WTF is that all about?)0 -
- wanting to talk about things from a female point of view without being told that the female point of view is 'not true' (like what's happening in this thread!)
This. It is nice to have a conversation with people who take your feelings at face value and don't try to tell you to suck it up or you are just being silly.The primary concern I'd have would be that, while they can provide an environment where a sex can feel "more at ease", they do nothing to combat the cause.
Why should women have to 'combat the cause' every moment of the day?Mark Hamill wrote: »Gender inequality is wrong because, bar the biological, there is nothing fundamentally different between men and womenl, the differences are due to individual personalities being different.
There are certain experiences that women have that men generally do not. Women give birth. Women are judged more on their appearance than men. Women get brazilian waxes. These are things that women like to discuss with other women. I would also say as a woman and an ethnic minority, that I do belong to some 'identity' groups, in part because it is, again, nice to not have to justify my feelings all the damn time.0 -
- wanting a space where there are no sexual dynamics, no flirting, no pressure to be 'attractive'
Ok, while the flirting would be gone, the pressure to be attractive would not. That sort of pressure comes from you gender peers, either from comparing or bullying, which has nothing to do with gender (or do girls in all girl schools not wear as much make up and as little skirt as possible when going to school?).- wanting the type of interaction that is more typical in all-female groups (I know lots of people, including women, have disagreed with me on that one but I genuinely do find discussions with women to be less argumentative, more collaborative and less competitive, with less pressure to be right or to be funny!)
I think its incredibly ridiculous to want to avoid having to be right. It screams of low self esteem.- wanting to talk about things from a female point of view without being told that the female point of view is 'not true' (like what's happening in this thread!)
Who said the female point of view isn't true? I dont think it exists, and that it's a tired cliche. Maybe I have just spoken ot more women that you, but from people I've spoken and debated with, it seems like girls have just as varied and crazy opinions as men in all subjects. People aren't more or less likely to have overlapping opinions because of gender, but because of personality and experiences. Limiting yourself to one subset of humanity when discussing general topics seems shortsighted and stupid to me.0 -
Oh come on!
First of all, no one is saying 'a woman can't read a book with a man', so I needn't even read the rest of the sentence, because no one actually said that.
Weren't you the person who said they find womens only book clubs easier because they are less boistorous without men?Secondly, even if you replaced it with the more accurate 'some women prefer to discuss literature in women-only settings', I still don't see how that logically leads on to 'so why should I employ one to work with a man?'
Perhaps you could explain the employer mindset you are describing?
A female employer, who had a unisex education and goes to women only book clubs, pilates, yoga gyms, protest groups etc. An employer who was brought up that she is equal to a man, except in all the places where men aren't allowed.0 -
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OK seriously, we're talking about a book club here (for most of these posts that has been the example used). That is not complete segregation. In the rest of our lives we are working with men, living with men, studying with men, training with men, doing hobbies with men.
And despite all that time we spend 'integrated', and despite your assertion that there is no difference between men and women, there are STILL women that find the company of women more comfortable for certain defined activities. Not all activities. Not even necessarily one activity all the time. It really is such a small issue. One hour a month maybe? Why do you still insist that these women are wrong in wanting this? Can't you accept that maybe you don't understand what drives them to seek this out, but that doesn't mean there isn't something genuine and valid there?
Should we ban 'lads nights out' and 'girls nights out' too? Because it is our duty to avoid all types of segregation? And of course you would agree that here is no difference between a lads night out and night out that involves lads, girls and couples, because we are all the same?
Are men wrong in wanting to be able to have a drink in a bar without listening to a group of women cackling?
is this so wrong?
Aprrently it is. but women who want an hour to to refelect on some cecilia ahern novel is not a problem?0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Ok, while the flirting would be gone, the pressure to be attractive would not. That sort of pressure comes from you gender peers, either from comparing or bullying, which has nothing to do with gender (or do girls in all girl schools not wear as much make up and as little skirt as possible when going to school?).
My last two years of secondary school were in an all girls school. During the day 80% of the girls did not wear make up and the nuns had to nag us to brush our hair. Of course the second school was over the bathrooms were filled with girls doing hair and make-up before they went out for the afternoon. When it was just girls we dressed as we pleased, it was refreshing not to worry about your appearance - and lets face it - when you are 16 your appearance is a big worry.
But back to the main point. How is my going to a book club once a month hurting anyone? The other hundreds of hours in each month are spent in co-ed environments. Can you honestly tell me you never just hang out with male friends?0 -
The argument about having these groups to see things from a female point of view is utter garbage in my opinion.
You are a female, you will always have your point of view no matter where you are or who you are with. Then the complaint is "well i don't like having to justify my beliefs or having people question me" which in my opinion digs an even bigger hole for that garbage argument.
Every day, no matter where I go, no matter who I meet, I am accountable for my opinions and beliefs and am prepared to defend them if people question them. Sometimes people will have a go at you and not go along with everything you have to say, it's called life....but if you want to cocoon yourself off with others who have the stepford wives in reverse type mentality then by all means go ahead but to me that is a sign of weakness and cowardice. Instead of confronting those who queston you and probe you, you run off to your nice comfy sanctuary with sheep-minded friends who won't hold you to account, it's so utterly pointless.
In conclusion though I have no problem with women only groups because the type of woman who is interested in these groups is thoroughly uninteresting in my view and I'm delighted they're cordoning themselves off from the rest of us (who thankfully are not so pained by debate, questions and those holding different views)0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Ok, while the flirting would be gone, the pressure to be attractive would not. That sort of pressure comes from you gender peers, either from comparing or bullying, which has nothing to do with gender (or do girls in all girl schools not wear as much make up and as little skirt as possible when going to school?).
I think its incredibly ridiculous to want to avoid having to be right. It screams of low self esteem.
Who said the female point of view isn't true? I dont think it exists, and that it's a tired cliche. Maybe I have just spoken ot more women that you, but from people I've spoken and debated with, it seems like girls have just as varied and crazy opinions as men in all subjects. People aren't more or less likely to have overlapping opinions because of gender, but because of personality and experiences. Limiting yourself to one subset of humanity when discussing general topics seems shortsighted and stupid to me.
I would feel more pressure to be attractive if I was going to be in a mixed group with men who I might find attractive, particularly if I was single. If I was going over to a mates house for a book club I would not feel that pressure. Call me crazy!
I don't really understand your point about the low self-esteem. Sometimes I like having discussions where the goal isn't to be right. The goal is to have a discussion and to draw out others' points of view. I don't particularly enjoy having to debate and defend each point I make. (Other times I actually do like the more argumentative discussions where people's points are picked apart. Just sometimes I don't). I don't really see the connection to my self esteem.
And finally, I am not talking about a global women's point of view. I am under no illusions that we all have the same opinion on anything. But if I want to talk about my experience of being a woman, or an experience I've had from the point of view of being a women, then sometimes I just can't be arsed trying to argue that point or justify it to a man who doesn't understand it.0 -
Are men wrong in wanting to be able to have a drink in a bar without listening to a group of women cackling?
is this so wrong?
Aprrently it is. but women who want an hour to to refelect on some cecilia ahern novel is not a problem?
Did anyone in this thread say there should not be men's groups? I think I stated specifically in an earlier post that I would recommend men spending time with just other men.0 -
Did anyone in this thread say there should not be men's groups? I think I stated specifically in an earlier post that I would recommend men spending time with just other men.
Try and make a few public houses in dublin city men only.
uproar, bra burning the lot. we would never hear the end of it.0 -
OK seriously, we're talking about a book club here (for most of these posts that has been the example used). That is not complete segregation. In the rest of our lives we are working with men, living with men, studying with men, training with men, doing hobbies with men.
And despite all that time we spend 'integrated', and despite your assertion that there is no difference between men and women, there are STILL women that find the company of women more comfortable for certain defined activities. Not all activities. Not even necessarily one activity all the time. It really is such a small issue. One hour a month maybe? Why do you still insist that these women are wrong in wanting this? Can't you accept that maybe you don't understand what drives them to seek this out, but that doesn't mean there isn't something genuine and valid there?
If these people can accept that they are missing out on something valid by just throwing out vast swathes of society because they dont think they will find complimentary personalities or discussion, then maybe. If you want a book club then just have one and discuss the books, why leave out anyone? You cant know if someone you dont like being around might actually contribute something very useful or interesting to the discussion.Should we ban 'lads nights out' and 'girls nights out' too?
I have not called for the banning of anything.Because it is our duty to avoid all types of segregation? And of course you would agree that here is no difference between a lads night out and night out that involves lads, girls and couples, because we are all the same?
Segregation not based on reality, then yes. Social activites happen between friends, and if someones (available) friends happen to one sex, then there is no issue with a lads noght or girls night out. But services and groups claiming that their segregation is an improvement based on no real evidence is what should be avoided because, even ignoring the sexism part, its always a disadvantage ot unfairly limit yourself.0 -
For all of you scoffing at the amount of women under 25 stat, I urge you to speak to every single one of your female friends about it.
From my experience and the experiences of every single one of my female friends, each one of us has dealt with physical sexual harassment or abuse at at least one point in our lives.
This includes unprovoked ass-slapping and boob-grabbing all the way up to abuse and rape.
No man has the right to grab me whenever he feels like it unless I've given permission to do so. Why those men think they're above this, like they're entitled to us, I don't know. But I cannot count the amount of times I've been out and had my ass grabbed or been grabbed around the waist or pulled over to a guy or a variety of other things. And there's no way in hell I'd be vain enough to think this only happens to me. I'd wager it happens to nearly everyone.
This isn't even including general harassment such as wolf-whistles and sexual things shouted at me from across the street and passing comments.. and I won't even get into the 'net. That's a different sort of demon altogether.
So for all you men saying there's no way it's 1/4, talk to your female mates. I'm an average-looking girl, it's not like I'm a stunner or anything-- if it can happen to me on this scale it can happen to anyone. Ask them if a stranger has ever grabbed their ass or any other wide variety of things.
I honestly think the figures will surprise you.0 -
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The argument about having these groups to see things from a female point of view is utter garbage in my opinion.
You are a female, you will always have your point of view no matter where you are or who you are with. Then the complaint is "well i don't like having to justify my beliefs or having people question me" which in my opinion digs and even bigger hole for that garbage argument.
Every day, no matter where I go, no matter who I mate, I am accountable for my opinions and beliefs and am prepared to defend them if people question them. Sometimes people will have a go at you and not go along with everything you have to say, it's called life....but if you want to cocoon yourself off with others who have the stepford wives in reverse type mentality then by all means go ahead but to me that is a sign of weakness and cowardice. Instead of confronting those who queston you and probe you, you run off to your nice comfy sanctuary with sheep-minded friends who won't hold you to account, it's so utterly pointless.
In conclusion though I have no problem with women only groups because the type of woman who is interested in these groups is thoroughly uninteresting in my view and I'm delighted their cordoning themselves off from the rest of us (who thankfully are not so pained by debate, questions and those holding different views)
OK if you've read every page of this thread, and still believe that the reason women want to spend time together is so that they can all agree with each other, never challenge each other, never question each other and just have big hugs then you certainly don't know many women, and you certainly haven't listened to anything that's been said on this thread!! I get the impression you decided in advance that that is what women's groups were about, and so you have stuck to that idea without actually trying to understand what anyone here is saying.0
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