'Women only' groups

southsiderosie

I'm an American and I have spent the better part of the last two years living outside of my home country. Most of my friends are not other Americans, and I make a conscious effort to meet and hang out with local people. I speak the languages of the countries I have lived in, I read their newspapers; I guess you could say I have integrated. Yet sometimes I just want to eat a hamburger and fries with ketchup (not mayo or salt and vinegar!) and chat with another American about how crazy things are sometimes being a foreigner in Country X. And I think there is a similar motivation behind a lot of identity-based group activities.

Most women get along just fine in a co-ed world. Most ethnic minorities get along just fine being statistically outnumbered, especially in the workplace. But sometimes it is very comforting to have some group time with people who may just 'get' where you are coming from without you having to explain it, whether it is struggling to lose weight after having a baby or dealing with "hair politics" in the workplace.

Race, gender, ethnicity and nationality are not 'trivial distinctions'. They are important distinctions, and they affect people's lives. That said, they are not inherently negative distinctions. And I don't see why participation in groups formed around these differences is seen as somehow divisive or problematic. I could see a problem if people ONLY wanted to go to all women schools, churches, book clubs, etc., but as an occasional activity? Nah.

CDfm

But for some everything is turned into a feminist issue

I was listening to Montcrieff on Newstalk and there was a woman from the NORML for Womens Alliance a US marijuana users group telling me that its different for women.

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=8059

My bearbug is that for me, feminism and misandry, often go hand in hand and sometimes I think I am being overly sensitive about it. I hope I am wrong but its a feeling I get.

Ickle Magoo

I think it's looking at things a little simplistically to assume it's just the feminist angle woman go for in politically motivated groups. Having a women only group support or campaign against something can send a more powerful message/get greater exposure/etc than the same women joining a generalised group, as your post about this group - which is about the fourth time I've seen it this week despite seeing no mention of other pro-cannabis groups - amply demonstrates.

CDfm

Ha Ickle - you got me.

But just take me. I had bad experiences for being a guy and it was the support of my female friends that really chilled me out.

So when I see Womens Group I go :eek: *runs and hides under a rock*

Ickle Magoo

I don't follow what you mean or why it meant you ran to hide under a rock.

If you had a bad experience and it was your female friends that chilled you out - why is that an argument against women seeking the company of other women?

southsiderosie

CDfm wrote: »

Ha Ickle - you got me.

But just take me. I had bad experiences for being a guy and it was the support of my female friends that really chilled me out.

So when I see Womens Group I go :eek: *runs and hides under a rock*

That's because "sisterly chats" make everyone happier.

CDfm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't follow what you mean or why it meant you ran to hide under a rock.

If you had a bad experience and it was your female friends that chilled you out - why is that an argument against women seeking the company of other women?

I meant as in a longer term situation on my treatment as a guy. I would prefer not to go into detail but I can see it from both sides-just that it gave me a skewed view.Maybe it made me bitter and the friendships I have disabused me of some stuff.

Both genders need the company of their own from time to time to shoot the breeze etc.

When I see some things portrayed as women only issues or womens groups or mens groups I have to go -this is not for me.

Ickle Magoo

CDfm wrote: »

I meant as in a longer term situation on my treatment as a guy. I would prefer not to go into detail but I can see it from both sides-just that it gave me a skewed view.Maybe it made me bitter and the friendships I have disabused me of some stuff.

I wasn't fishing for details, promise, I just don't understand lauding female company and knocking female only company in the same sentence...

CDfm wrote: »

Both genders need the company of their own from time to time to shoot the breeze etc.

Agreed.

CDfm wrote: »

When I see some things portrayed as women only issues or womens groups or mens groups I have to go -this is not for me.

Most of the time so do I but I can still see the infinite use and help they offer others for a whole variety of reasons.

CDfm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I wasn't fishing for details, promise, I just don't understand lauding female company and knocking female only company in the same sentence...

Female company is great .

Most of the time so do I but I can still see the infinite use and help they offer others for a whole variety of reasons.

When they help they are good. I couldn't be in a mens group that was anti-women but gender politics is a no go for me.

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

No both have aspects that are 'better'. If I want to prioritise a thoughtful discussion with no interruptions than the women's one would be better. If I want to prioritise a more lively discussion with a lot more laughter, the mixed one would be better.

I'm sorry, but this idea that men cant have a thoughtful discussion but woemn can is ridiculous and, frankly, a little sexist. I have a feeling that if you spent a little less time in "women only" groups you would see that. You are like me, who after a boys only education had big problems just talking to girls because of the misinformation spread in such sexually misaligned enviroments.

Kooli wrote: »

Again it's generalisations, but I can't be persuaded that there are no differences between men and women!!

But you are wrong! These differences that you are describing in terms of discussions are not a man vs woman thing, but based on individual personalities. You dont need to be a woman amongst women to have a thoughful discussion, or do you count the discussions here, in the philosophy or in the atheist & agnostic forums as being less thoughful than if they women only forums?

Kooli wrote: »

I'm also not saying men can't discuss things without being loud, but that men's discussions do tend to be louder, and loud is not actually a bad thing! Louder and quieter do not imply a judgement - it just depends what you're looking for.

Again, baseless assumption, probably based on spending too much not in mixed circles. Have you never seen teenage girsl talk with their parents or each other? Loader than any mixed discussion group I've ever heard.

Kooli wrote: »

I'm actually someone who values the differences between men and women, and I don't think we should aim for everyone being the same.

You are someone who is applying values which are not there. Women, in general, are not dainty little flowers who cant talk louder than a squeek and men, in general are not actually lumbering boars who bellow at every oppprtunity. The criteria you are looking for in discussion groups are based on individual personality, not gender.

Mark Hamill

Thaedydal wrote: »

The limitations placed on people due to gender start in the home with house work seen as women's work ect.

For you maybe, I just saw the female members of my family as different to the outside females because they were related to me.

Thaedydal wrote: »

If you never had contact with women other then family and then when you went to college I would ask why did you segregate yourself?

Who said I segregated myself? I went to an all boys school, so for most of my waking day I didn't socialise with girls. Are you saying its my fault I went to an all boys school?

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are plenty of youth groups, hobbies and voluntary groups you could have been a member of and worked with and along side women.

Out of a 24h day, I spent 8hrs asleep and 8-9hrs in schools, doing school work. Keeping in mind that a lot of the hobby and youth groups that people go to are run in their own school (the rugby I played certainly was) and that stuff like scouts (which I attended for a few years) only goes for about 2hrs a week (not to mention the point of these groups is not to socialise with members of teh opposite sex), how much socialising did you expect me to do?

Thaedydal wrote: »

Shame your parented didn't ensure that you had the socail skills and experience to talk to people.

Dont insult my parents.
I had the social skills and experience to talk to other boys, just little enough experience talking to girls. Hardly my parents fault seeing as most schools are segregated acording to gender with the idea that boys hold back girls in mixed schools.

Mark Hamill

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I can't help but take what you are saying and think if you could take on my class of women who have suffered domestic violence and wonder if you'd see things the same way.

Exactly the same. Or do you expect me ot believe that there are no abused men out there?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The fact is people have all variety of experiences in life,whether it's a teenager uncomfortable with the lewd comments and wolf whistles in the uni-sex gym or an older women who wants to explore erotic literature with her peers. I don't see why gender specific clubs that cater for such people should be viewed negatively as long as there is alternatives for everyone else.

Firstly, the teenager should deal with the wolf whistles by complaining to management, not running away, its hardly a good life lesson to have teens run away from their problems rather than actually deal with them.
Secondly, why wouldn't the old woman want to discuss her literature with anyone, male or female, that has an equal interest in it? I just dont get why such a woman should automatically think that only another woman could appreciate her hobbie in a similar way.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I can understand why a group that wants to discriminate based on hatred would not be desirable & I agree - however, many women only-groups were set up because of men's treatment of women in same sex groups.

But why dont the women just demand equality? Why do these women think that its up to them to specially cater for themselves rather than its up the the men to cop on and grow up?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Now, while I can understand the injustice of not tarring all men with the same brush I still wouldn't invite my very non-violent, gentle husband to my battered women's class. If you want to view that as akin to hating black people, be my guest.

Domestic abuse victims is a special case, I dont think the women who go to womens only gyms or book clubs are all domestic abuse victims.

Mark Hamill

jujibee wrote: »

I was brought up by very liberal parents to treat everyone equally and expect equality in turn so I would not say I was "brought up" to expect men to bother me. I managed to learn that lesson all on my own through the behavior of some boorish men. I am not say that all or even many men behave this way but enough do to make me wary of the rest.

And how is that fair to the men who aren't boorish or even to yourself for limiting yourself because of this generalisation? What would you say if I said:
I was brought up by very liberal parents to treat everyone equally and expect equality in turn so I would not say I was "brought up" to expect women to bother me. I managed to learn that lesson all on my own through the behavior of some bitchy women. I am not say that all or even many women behave this way but enough do to make me wary of the rest.

Mark Hamill

Truley wrote: »

I recall seeing a poster recently in the school I work advertising a girl's only after school knitting and craft club. I think that in this case there is no legitimate reason for barring a person based on their gender. I also think that it's different from a private organisation in that it actively witholds a service from a person because of their gender rather than serving a genuine niche like a golf club or therapy group does.

Why is a golf club a valid niche to have gender discrimination, but knitting isn't?

Mark Hamill

CDfm wrote: »

@Mark Hamill -there is a point here & it is a shame and it can chill you out to be friends with women on a friendly basis.

I got co-opted onto a womens pub quiz team 6 or so months ago .

You should give it a try.

Who says I'm not friends with women? I said when I started college I had problems talking with girls because I wasn't used to it. That was years ago, I have plenty of female friends now, even a girlfriend.

LenaClaire

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And how is that fair to the men who aren't boorish or even to yourself for limiting yourself because of this generalisation? What would you say if I said:
I was brought up by very liberal parents to treat everyone equally and expect equality in turn so I would not say I was "brought up" to expect women to bother me. I managed to learn that lesson all on my own through the behavior of some bitchy women. I am not say that all or even many women behave this way but enough do to make me wary of the rest.

It is not fair to them but that it too bad. When you have had the experiences I have had with men it makes it hard to trust men off the bat. I have many male friends that I respect and trust so I don't think I am limiting my friendships, I just don't run around trusting people right away.

Maybe you should complain to the few men that are giving the rest of you a bad name. Tell them that women don't like being grabbed or condescended to, tell them that women don't like it when people try to assault them. You seem to be saying that it is up to women to enlighten the men that are misogynistic or sexist. How about the men step up and enlighten them as well, we are tired of having to justify our experiences.

Nevyn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

For you maybe, I just saw the female members of my family as different to the outside females because they were related to me.

That in it's self can be problematic with some men, the women they are related to are to be protected the rest are fair game.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who said I segregated myself? I went to an all boys school, so for most of my waking day I didn't socialise with girls. Are you saying its my fault I went to an all boys school?

I said single sex schooling is a factor.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Out of a 24h day, I spent 8hrs asleep and 8-9hrs in schools, doing school work. Keeping in mind that a lot of the hobby and youth groups that people go to are run in their own school (the rugby I played certainly was) and that stuff like scouts (which I attended for a few years) only goes for about 2hrs a week (not to mention the point of these groups is not to socialise with members of teh opposite sex), how much socialising did you expect me to do?


Dont insult my parents.
I had the social skills and experience to talk to other boys, just little enough experience talking to girls. Hardly my parents fault seeing as most schools are segregated acording to gender with the idea that boys hold back girls in mixed schools.

You or your parents could have noticed that you were missing interaction with women to round out out as a person and to ensure you had a complete set of social skills. It was an observation, seems your parents didn't think you mostly having social interactions with only other males would be an issue or lead to stunted social skills, but well done on getting over that.

Nevyn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But why dont the women just demand equality?

Women have been demanding equality and socail equality for years but these days many think that women have it and don't see the amount of casual sexism and objectifaction many women have to endure day to day.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why do these women think that its up to them to specially cater for themselves rather than its up the the men to cop on and grow up?

Ever think that they do thier bit for the figth for socail change but weary of it and just want an enviroment where they are accepted?

I am not saying it is not possible to have that with a certain type of man present but there is a place for women only space and men only spaces.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Domestic abuse victims is a special case, I dont think the women who go to womens only gyms or book clubs are all domestic abuse victims.

Depends on how you define abuse, did you know that 1 in 4 women will be raped in their life time, usually by someone they know? Did you know nearly all women will have been sexually assaulted in some manner by the time the reach 25?

Not all men are morons or disrespectful arsholes who grope women or make lewd comments when it's not needed, but you know what I have yet to see it happen in a bar or anywhere else and see the men around him stand up and tell him to grow up.

CDfm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who says I'm not friends with women? I said when I started college I had problems talking with girls because I wasn't used to it. That was years ago, I have plenty of female friends now, even a girlfriend.

Maybe if & when you have kids you will do things a bit differently.

Your parents did things their way because thats what they knew and did the best they could.

You will do the best you can too but change it a bit based on stuff you come accross.

Keep an open mind.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Women have been demanding equality and socail equality for years but these days many think that women have it and don't see the amount of casual sexism and objectifaction many women have to endure day to day.

Some do & some don't and there is an argument for Curves on that basis alone.

Some of my male friends are surprised that I would go to a beauty therapist for a massage.

Ever think that they do thier bit for the figth for socail change but weary of it and just want an enviroment where they are accepted?

I am not saying it is not possible to have that with a certain type of man present but there is a place for women only space and men only spaces.

In context women can be equally as racey as guys -if not more so.

My ears go red more often around women and I can be easily embarressed.

Depends on how you define abuse, did you know that 1 in 4 women will be raped in their life time, usually by someone they know? Did you know nearly all women will have been sexually assaulted in some manner by the time the reach 25?

I did not know it was so high.

That said, I know a young guy who was being pressurised into sex by a girl he doesn't like and she was very loud & insulting at the refusal.

Not all men are morons or disrespectful arsholes who grope women or make lewd comments when it's not needed, but you know what I have yet to see it happen in a bar or anywhere else and see the men around him stand up and tell him to grow up.

I would & I have told a guy I know not to be such a p**** .

You have a point, I have a daughter and her life is her own business but if she goes on a date from my house I often say well dont be embarressed to bring a guy in and do the try not to seperate from friends etc.

Its a parenting thing too - I do give lifts home etc and be respectful to boys she knows in a way my Dad was not with my sisters boyfriends.

And her taste in fellahs has been quite good , at least the ones I have met.

Mark Hamill

jujibee wrote: »

It is not fair to them but that it too bad. When you have had the experiences I have had with men it makes it hard to trust men off the bat. I have many male friends that I respect and trust so I don't think I am limiting my friendships, I just don't run around trusting people right away.

And what has any of that got to do with being a woman? Do you think men go around just trusting people straight away? That there is no male on male crime? Again you are trying to take a personality thing and imply its gender caused.

jujibee wrote: »

Maybe you should complain to the few men that are giving the rest of you a bad name. Tell them that women don't like being grabbed or condescended to, tell them that women don't like it when people try to assault them.

Do you honestly think I would allow someone in my group of friends to be grabbed or assaulted?

jujibee wrote: »

You seem to be saying that it is up to women to enlighten the men that are misogynistic or sexist.

Well, in cases where the men aren't being misogynistic or sexist, like boisterous book clubs :rolleyes:, then yes, if men bother you then try actually telling them that. Segregating yourselfs away from them is hardly going to get across the message is it?

jujibee wrote: »

How about the men step up and enlighten them as well, we are tired of having to justify our experiences.

Do you expect me to police the streets to make sure no man ever grabbs or assaults another woman? You seem to be implying that all men are in on the grabbing and condescending, which is sexist nonsense. Not to mention that your answer to this problem is to just avoid men as much as possible, which really is just giving in to the problem.

LenaClaire

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And what has any of that got to do with being a woman? Do you think men go around just trusting people straight away? That there is no male on male crime? Again you are trying to take a personality thing and imply its gender caused.

I personally have never been attacked or molested by a woman, so in my experience, yes, it is a gender issue.

Do you honestly think I would allow someone in my group of friends to be grabbed or assaulted?

I would not assume you would allow anyone to assault your friend but I have been in many situations where one man was behaving badly towards women, the women told him to quit it and the other men either ignored the situation or egged him on.

Well, in cases where the men aren't being misogynistic or sexist, like boisterous book clubs :rolleyes:, then yes, if men bother you then try actually telling them that. Segregating yourselfs away from them is hardly going to get across the message is it?

If you read my previous posts you would see that I have stated that I spend approx 24 hours out of an entire year in female only company. I fail to see how this is segregating myself. Nor was I the one who mentioned "boisterous" book clubs. I think that men and women both can be thoughtful and both can be boisterous. The women's book clubs I know of are just a place for women to read books about women's issues and discuss from a woman's point of view.

Do you expect me to police the streets to make sure no man ever grabbs or assaults another woman? You seem to be implying that all men are in on the grabbing and condescending, which is sexist nonsense. Not to mention that your answer to this problem is to just avoid men as much as possible, which really is just giving in to the problem.

I said clearly in my previous posts that there are only a few men that behave this way but that they reflect on men in general just as the few women who behave poorly reflect badly on women. I do not expect you personally to patrol the streets but it seems to me that you expect women to fight every time this happens. We would just like some help from the men who are not jerks.

I never stated that women should avoid men, my initial comment was that I have many male friends but there are times when it is nice to just talk to women about women things.

Zulu

Frankly, it disappoints & saddens me that we'd actively encourage sexist discrimination in this day and age.




I'd like to offer a thought: if we accept that gyms like curves exist for the reason that women want an environment free from perving eyes, are we not perpetuating a misandrist notion that men are perverts?
If that is the reason, is it not fantastically offensive to ban our brothers, fathers & sons because they are perverts?
Would it not be tantamount to banning women because they can't control their emotions what with PMS and all?
...food for thought.

Mark Hamill

Thaedydal wrote: »

Mark Hamill wrote:

Who said I segregated myself? I went to an all boys school, so for most of my waking day I didn't socialise with girls. Are you saying its my fault I went to an all boys school?

I said single sex schooling is a factor.

You originally asked me why I segregated myself, so I dont actually see the relevence to my response.

Thaedydal wrote: »

You or your parents could have noticed that you were missing interaction with women to round out out as a person and to ensure you had a complete set of social skills.

How? Like I said, same sex schools are very common in Ireland, on several occasions we were told how girls do better without boys dragging them down. This was a common position for a lot of guys, at least the ones who didn't start going to nightclubs from a early age.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It was an observation, seems your parents didn't think you mostly having social interactions with only other males would be an issue or lead to stunted social skills, but well done on getting over that.

You keep blaiming my parents, which makes me think you are trolling (posting an obviously inflaming point in order to get a rise out of someone), because single sex schooling being the norm in this country (both my parents and all my siblings went to single sex schools) kind of makes it the cultures fault. That same culture that seems to be embracing this idea of "womens only" groups and services, and then questioning why are kids cant interact.

Nevyn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You keep blaiming my parents, which makes me think you are trolling (posting an obviously inflaming point in order to get a rise out of someone), because single sex schooling being the norm in this country (both my parents and all my siblings went to single sex schools) kind of makes it the cultures fault. That same culture that seems to be embracing this idea of "womens only" groups and services, and then questioning why are kids cant interact.

I am not trolling, I also went to single sex schools and went to girl guides but my parents also made sure I had other mixed gendered social outlets and encouraged me to take part in mini companies and schools debates and chess club where there would be boys there, my father took great pains to demystify boys for me and to make sure I was able to hold my own in mixed company or if I happened to be only woman among men.

I consider it part of a parents duty to do their best to prepare their child to be able to function in the world around them, to my mind on that account your parents failed you.

Nevyn

Zulu wrote: »

Frankly, it disappoints & saddens me that we'd actively encourage sexist discrimination in this day and age.

I think that by labelling all groups which segregate so that their members can discuss their commonalities and find support as being a negative thing as throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Yes we need to foster understanding about our differences but we also need to accept them as well. There are aspects of our lives which shape us and how we are treated by the world at large is dictated by who we are at a base level we have no control over. By coming together people feel less alone and more supported and understood and it helps them face and deal with other's who treat them harshly due to those differences.

Zulu wrote: »

I'd like to offer a thought: if we accept that gyms like curves exist for the reason that women want an environment free from perving eyes, are we not perpetuating a misandrist notion that men are perverts?

Who said it had anything about pervy eyes? It can be about not feeling self concious, when ever someone of the gender we fancy is around we are more aware of our physicality and given that women are valued and have often come to value themsevles due to their appearance and will not want to be in a sweaty mess around men.

Not all women feel this way, a lot of the women who go goes curves won't go to a regular gym and the fact they are able to work out is a good thing,
they are still in the minority.

You don't see me demanding access to the Boiler house.

Zulu wrote: »

If that is the reason, is it not fantastically offensive to ban our brothers, fathers & sons because they are perverts?

Thats not the reason and your creating a straw man.

Zulu wrote: »

Would it not be tantamount to banning women because they can't control their emotions what with PMS and all?
...food for thought.

And that is just not comparing like to like and posted to get a rise out of posters.

Zulu

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats not the reason and your creating a straw man.
And that is just not comparing like to like and posted to get a rise out of posters.

Thats very disengenous Thaedydal. I asked a question "if we accept", "if that is the reason", and I offered it as a point of consideration.

I was not creating a strawman. And I was not posting to get a rise out if posters (read: trolling). This is Humanities & not the Ladies Lounge - or have I made a massive mistake?

Mark Hamill

Thaedydal wrote: »

Women have been demanding equality and socail equality for years but these days many think that women have it and don't see the amount of casual sexism and objectifaction many women have to endure day to day.

Yeah, because women never objectify men, ever :rolleyes:.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Mark Hamill wrote:

Why do these women think that its up to them to specially cater for themselves rather than its up the the men to cop on and grow up?

Ever think that they do thier bit for the figth for socail change but weary of it and just want an enviroment where they are accepted?

I am not saying it is not possible to have that with a certain type of man present but there is a place for women only space and men only spaces.

You need to read my posts, because you are missing my point. I agree that women, hell everybody, should have an enviroment where they are just accepted, but I dont see why the women should have to make specialist enviroments for themselves when the mixed enviroments are there too. It just propagates the idea that women should be kept seperate from men, that there are fewer and fewer places where women can be comfortable (especially with more and more types of "women only" services coming out). It just seems like its building up ot someone asking "well seeing as a woman now cant read a book with a man, why the hell should I employ one to work with a man (or a man to work with her)?"

Thaedydal wrote: »

Depends on how you define abuse, did you know that 1 in 4 women will be raped in their life time, usually by someone they know?

I dont think that number is accurate. Firstly its contradicted here and secondly (and were I assume you picked up the number), the oneinfour charity says that its 1 in 4 children, not women.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Did you know nearly all women will have been sexually assaulted in some manner by the time the reach 25?

So all, or even a significant, amount of the women in women only book clubs, gyms, protest groups etc were sexually assaulted, and so just cannot be around men in these areas, but they can be around men in work, and not be bothered in such a way that it effects their work?

Thaedydal wrote: »

Not all men are morons or disrespectful arsholes who grope women or make lewd comments when it's not needed, but you know what I have yet to see it happen in a bar or anywhere else and see the men around him stand up and tell him to grow up.

I've never seen any women tell a woman to cop on when they group men or make lewd comments. This behavour, reprehensible as it is, is individual specific, not gender specific.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mark Hamill

jujibee wrote: »

I personally have never been attacked or molested by a woman, so in my experience, yes, it is a gender issue.

And I personally have never been attacked or molested by a man, so, what, therefore its only women who do it?

jujibee wrote: »

I would not assume you would allow anyone to assault your friend but I have been in many situations where one man was behaving badly towards women, the women told him to quit it and the other men either ignored the situation or egged him on.

Dickheads, unfortunately, are not unique.

jujibee wrote: »

If you read my previous posts you would see that I have stated that I spend approx 24 hours out of an entire year in female only company. I fail to see how this is segregating myself. Nor was I the one who mentioned "boisterous" book clubs. I think that men and women both can be thoughtful and both can be boisterous. The women's book clubs I know of are just a place for women to read books about women's issues and discuss from a woman's point of view.

But its a massive assumption to assume because someone is a man, they wont have a similar or complimentary point of view to you. If I was hiring for job and stated that I didn't want a womans point of view I'd be sued, and rightly so. Its a ridiculous notion that the gulf between a man and a womans point of view automatically going to be bigger than two womans, simply because the women are the same sex, it completely ignores that two women are two different people and will have two different personalaties, just the like the man will.

jujibee wrote: »

I said clearly in my previous posts that there are only a few men that behave this way but that they reflect on men in general just as the few women who behave poorly reflect badly on women. I do not expect you personally to patrol the streets but it seems to me that you expect women to fight every time this happens. We would just like some help from the men who are not jerks.

Then ask them. The people who work in these places, the management or the door men or whatever, its their job. I'm not saying that women need to clock a guy over the head with a bottle if he leers at or harrasses her, but they can at least point it out to the staff of where they are.

jujibee wrote: »

I never stated that women should avoid men, my initial comment was that I have many male friends but there are times when it is nice to just talk to women about women things.

Why do you need a whole gym to do that ?

Nevyn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You need to read my posts, because you are missing my point. I agree that women, hell everybody, should have an enviroment where they are just accepted, but I dont see why the women should have to make specialist enviroments for themselves when the mixed enviroments are there too.

If those mixed environments were welcoming to women and didn't expect women to be like men in them then you would see change.

Women are opting out of places they don't feel welcome, to hit up some of the girl geek and gamer sites and see how it happens and what happens.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It just propagates the idea that women should be kept seperate from men, that there are fewer and fewer places where women can be comfortable (especially with more and more types of "women only" services coming out).

Women dont' need to be protected from that shíte, women jsut get fed up of putting up with it and being attacked when they point it out so they get pissed of with the lack of change and choose to walk away and seclude themselves from the idiocy.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It just seems like its building up ot someone asking "well seeing as a woman now cant read a book with a man, why the hell should I employ one to work with a man (or a man to work with her)?"

Speaking of idiocy.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont think that number is accurate. Firstly its contradicted here and secondly (and were I assume you picked up the number), the oneinfour charity says that its 1 in 4 children, not women.

Yup should have said 1 in 6.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So all, or even a significant, amount of the women in women only book clubs, gyms, protest groups etc were sexually assaulted, and so just cannot be around men in these areas, but they can be around men in work, and not be bothered in such a way that it effects their work?

In work there is some level of protection, professional conduct is expected and there reporting procedures and penalties for anyone of either gender who behaves in an unacceptable fashion.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I've never seen any women tell a woman to cop on when they group men or make lewd comments. This behavour, reprehensible as it is, is individual specific, not gender specific.

I have, several times when out in company and to both genders.