5,000 Redundancies sought at HSE

suitseir

Just listening to the news on RTE.....I can't believe that over 2,000 of these work in HR in the HSE.......the mind boggles!!!!! Must check up on the population number of this country again.......

My name is URL

wtf, they're only giving people 3 weeks to agree to voluntary redundency. I'm glad to see that they are eventually taking action against the bloated organisation but 5,000 laid off effectively overnight, and just before Christmas is going to have a major knock on effect on the rest of the economy

policarp

The one who should go first just got painted today...:D

Micky Dolenz

Why stop at 5000 though.

mox54

these guys are not in the real world at all, 2000 in HR, for heavens sake that is madness and we're putting up with it!!:rolleyes:

123balltv

yeah all this before Christmas
they sure wont be spending much dosh even more jobs will be lost in retail :mad:

galwayrush

If it was a private company, a lot more that 5000 would have been sacked long ago.

_whiskers

Does anyone know the terms of the redundancy?

doolox

The HSE has something like 100,000 on the payroll so 2000 in HR may be reasonable especially since the sector is very complicated with agreements from many original hospitals and organisations still exist for existing staff.

Unlike what would happen in private organisations would just stick to a unified policy and pay rate for a given grade and type of worker and that would be that. PPARS failed because of the complexity of the pay roll system in the HSE. HR covers a lot more than pay so one can only imagine the complexity of other systems and policies etc.. in place.

The redundancy of 5,000 is only the beginning. Once the govt get their way with this package they will repeat it other public operations. Also a selloff of semistates is on the cards.

Mr McBoatface

Why give redundancy ? How many of those HR folks can't even use a PC ?

From what I've heard from some younger PS workers I how the amount of PS admin workers over the age of 40 that can't use a PC is staggering. Many of these have completed upskilling and received all sorts of bonus and payments for adopting new technology and yet they still can't use a PC .. just sack them.

gurramok

RTE say the HSE has 17,000 clerical and administrative grade staff and 11,000 support staff out of 108,000 in total.

my name is URL wrote:

but 5,000 laid off effectively overnight, and just before Christmas is going to have a major knock on effect on the rest of the economy

It should of been done 2 yrs ago but FF delayed the pain and look what sh1t we are in now.

fonecrusher1

Its about time they culled a few thousand pencil pushers. People doing jobs a trained monkey could do & being paid 20k+ to do it.

Its the right decision. Jesus they actually did something right.

kraggy

There's not a hope in hell that they'll get 3000, never mind 5000, to leave.

If you've been working as a clerical officer for say, 5 years, you'd be entitled to:

3 weeks per years service + statutory (=2 weeks per year).

=> 5 weeks x 5 = 25 weeks pay

= no more than 20k.

No way I'd leave with only 20k in my pocket with the way things are.

I'd be holding on to that job with a tight grip.

My name is URL

gurramok wrote: »

RTE say the HSE has 17,000 clerical and administrative grade staff and 11,000 support staff out of 108,000 in total.



It should of been done 2 yrs ago but FF delayed the pain and look what sh1t we are in now.

I agree completely. Just think it's a bit risky to do it now in one fell swoop, and just before Christmas. Really, it should have been an ongoing thing since the HSE replaced the regional Health Boards. Unions are as much to blame for that not happening as the government are though.. I wonder what they'll have to say about this.

Snakeblood

My name is URL wrote: »

wtf, they're only giving people 3 weeks to agree to voluntary redundency. I'm glad to see that they are eventually taking action against the bloated organisation but 5,000 laid off effectively overnight, and just before Christmas is going to have a major knock on effect on the rest of the economy

This has been coming for some time, to be fair. It's not a surprise to people within the HSE.

fonecrusher1

What exactly do they mean by rendundancies sought? They're seeking voluntary redundancies? What if everyone refuses? Will it just become government makes redundancies?!

Sure hardly no one is going to throw their hand up in the air & look to be out of a job a month & a half before christmas.

gurramok

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

What exactly do they mean by rendundancies sought? They're seeking voluntary redundancies? What if everyone refuses? Will it just become government makes redundancies?!

Sure hardly no one is going to throw their hand up in the air & look to be out of a job a month & a half before christmas.

The Croke Park deal says no compulsory redundancies or any paycuts. You get the drift

galwayrush

Hmm, who's pulling the strings now, FF and Hearney were never known for direct action , it should have been done years ago, way too many pen pushers in the HSE. This sudden direct action seems like the Government have been given an ultimatum by our new overlords, probably a warning that it will be the IMF doing the slashing if they don't start doing something about the stupid waste that has prevailed in recent years.

PeterIanStaker

I doubt the minister will be made redundant or suffer a pay cut.

Terry

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?
That the knock-on effect will more than likely lead to strikes and more patients left on trollies.

But hey, you're all private sector workers who look down on those employed by the government because your taxes pay their wages, right?

Fúck the terminally ill and those needing emergency treatment. It's all about you and your disposable income.

In two months you will all be complaining about further rises on the live register and blaming the government for it, little realising how much of an effect this will have on the PPP of the country.

Praise Harney.

gizmo

galwayrush wrote: »

Hmm, who's pulling the strings now, FF and Hearney were never known for direct action , it should have been done years ago, way too many pen pushers in the HSE. This sudden direct action seems like the Government have been given an ultimatum by our new overlords, probably a warning that it will be the IMF doing the slashing if they don't start doing something about the stupid waste that has prevailed in recent years.

It's not sudden, as was said above, it's been coming for quite some time.

On a side note, is it not highly ironic that people are delighted Harney got paint thrown at her for the planned cuts in the health sector yet on the same day, when the government look for €400m savings via redundancies in the HSE, people are saying it's about time?

Wertz

kraggy wrote: »

There's not a hope in hell that they'll get 3000, never mind 5000, to leave.

If you've been working as a clerical officer for say, 5 years, you'd be entitled to:

3 weeks per years service + statutory (=2 weeks per year).

=> 5 weeks x 5 = 25 weeks pay

= no more than 20k.

No way I'd leave with only 20k in my pocket with the way things are.

I'd be holding on to that job with a tight grip.

Whereas if the IMF or the stability fund enter the ring , the people getting made redundant could be getting SFA.
This voluntary scheme could be a canny move for some people depending on their personal circumstances.

Wertz

Terry wrote: »

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?
That the knock-on effect will more than likely lead to strikes and more patients left on trollies.

But hey, you're all private sector workers who look down on those employed by the government because your taxes pay their wages, right?

Fúck the terminally ill and those needing emergency treatment. It's all about you and your disposable income.

In two months you will all be complaining about further rises on the live register and blaming the government for it, little realising how much of an effect this will have on the PPP of the country.

Praise Harney.

When it's nurses, colsultants junior doctors, GPs and ambulance drivers getting the heave and not desk jockeys in some admin role, then I'll start worrying.
If the HSE can manage to drop 5000 or so workers in as little as two months, it surely begs the question as to what those 5K workers were doing that was so vital in the first place.

As for the timing...health budget ticks over on dec 31st...having these people off the payroll is a book balancing excersise...

fonecrusher1

Terry wrote: »

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?
That the knock-on effect will more than likely lead to strikes and more patients left on trollies.

But hey, you're all private sector workers who look down on those employed by the government because your taxes pay their wages, right?

Fúck the terminally ill and those needing emergency treatment. It's all about you and your disposable income.

In two months you will all be complaining about further rises on the live register and blaming the government for it, little realising how much of an effect this will have on the PPP of the country.

Praise Harney.

So whats your solution? Forget about the redundancies, lets just keep things the way they are? I take your point about the possible knock on affects but maybe the remaining administrative staff will have to work harder.

There are too too many people on the HSE payroll. Its as simple as that.

kelle

kraggy wrote: »

There's not a hope in hell that they'll get 3000, never mind 5000, to leave.

If you've been working as a clerical officer for say, 5 years, you'd be entitled to:

3 weeks per years service + statutory (=2 weeks per year).

=> 5 weeks x 5 = 25 weeks pay

= no more than 20k.

No way I'd leave with only 20k in my pocket with the way things are.

I'd be holding on to that job with a tight grip.

I doubt if HSE clerical officers earn €20k in 25 weeks - that's over €40k a year!

Anyway, interesting calculation considering a few I know have at least 30 years service and said they would take a good redundancy pakage if the opportunity arose!

sollar

kelle wrote: »

I doubt if HSE clerical officers earn €20k in 25 weeks - that's over €40k a year!

Anyway, interesting calculation considering a few I know have at least 30 years service and said they would take a good redundancy pakage if the opportunity arose!

Its what they would be entitled to after their 5 years.

It could appeal to some who have been in 10 or 15 years they could take the redundancy money and go retrain as something else and try and re-enter the workforce in 4 or 5 years.

There is also plenty of people middle aged people in there with the kids raised mortgage paid ect who might want to take it easy.

Mary Harney also said that 1/3 of the 28000 are over 50.

dotsman

Terry wrote: »

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?

What? Really? OK, I'll believe you.


Actually, I've change my mind - I'm not going to believe this bull$hit? What the flying fcuk has this got to do with NAMA? Do you even understand what NAMA is and how it works? Are you not able to understand that we have been building up a massive budget deficit over the past 10 years by paying BS wages to do BS jobs that add no value to the public services? We had a property bubble cheered on by the people and championed by the government that masked all these issues. Now the the property taxes are gone. We have a massive hole to fill. Either cut back and introduce the concept of efficiencies to the Public sector or find someway of generating €15 Billion in extra taxes (considering many people are already taxed to the hilt, and many companies are up against the wall, I just don't see how you can come up with even €3 Billion in extra taxes, let alone 15).

Terry wrote: »

That the knock-on effect will more than likely lead to strikes and more patients left on trollies.

Yes, the unions will try and hurt as many of their hostages as possible. But the sooner the people of Ireland tell them to go fcuk themselves, the less damage we will have to suffer.

Terry wrote: »

But hey, you're all private sector workers who look down on those employed by the government because your taxes pay their wages, right?

No, in general I don't look down at public sector workers. I was one. Both my parents, before they retired, were. Many of my friends are public sector workers. I don not "look down on public sector workers". I do absolutely detest how the public sector handles recruitment, training, employee performance, remuneration, management, cost control etc, but have nothing against the people. Most people I know don't look down on public sector workers either. That's just the unions rambling on. The best way to get people in line is convince them that they are being attacked and that you will be their saviour.

Terry wrote: »

Fúck the terminally ill and those needing emergency treatment.

Ah, some good ol' socialist union mantra.

Terry wrote: »

It's all about you and your disposable income.

No, it' about square pegs and round holes. We do not have the money. We never had the money. We never will have the money. We can only pay what we can afford.

Terry wrote: »

In two months you will all be complaining about further rises on the live register and blaming the government for it, little realising how much of an effect this will have on the PPP of the country.

No, I'll be mainly blaming the unions and all those who support them.

Terry wrote: »

Praise Harney.

I'm afraid I can't. She was made minister for Health in 2004. She was suppose to reduce (eliminate was too unrealistic a task) the waste. Instead, she continued to bow to the unions, allowing the HSE become even further fubar'ed.

Typhoon.

This will benefit people who have close to full service (40 years)

do they leave on full pension and lump sum?

another bonus for them will be they will get out before the Gov announce they'l be taxing the retirement lump sum

so I think this is a good deal for people that are close to retirement anyway... and an even better deal if their given full pension and lump sum

K-9

Terry wrote: »

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?

If only we could blame NAMA for it, but that really is head in the sand stuff.

Tax Revenue of about €32/33 Billion, Public Service pay of €18 Billion and Welfare of over €20 Billion.

We are borrowing €5/6 Billion just to pay people! That isn't counting services for the ill and costs of running hospitals for those emergency operations.

We can just keep borrowing? Right.

The Government is being charged 7% interest on bonds. They postponed bond auctions last month to avoid paying that but have to go to the markets in February. Unless something drastic isn't done, the rate could be 9/10%, like Greece and we need the IMF or ECB bail outs.

If that happens, 5,000 will just be the tip of the iceberg. These cuts will affect growth, no doubt about it, but what else can be done?

bonzos

What are the chances that some off the "top"pen pushers will be rehired in some form or other after they get their lump sum

galwayrush

bonzos wrote: »

What are the chances that some off the "top"pen pushers will be rehired in some form or other after that get their lump sum

Of course they will, esp if they are FF supporters.:rolleyes:

fonecrusher1

I'd like to know how many people were employed by the HSE in 1996/97. Pre Boom. Just to compare to the ridiculous amount now. Must have expanded by 25% at least in that time.

K-9

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I'd like to know how many people were employed by the HSE in 1996/97. Pre Boom. Just to compare to the ridiculous amount now. Must have expanded by 25% at least in that time.

Only have 2001-06, but it is shocking:
Irish Public Service 2001-2006: Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% - 38,000 workers and Pensions up 81.3%

Irish public service salaries have risen by 59% in the past five years and the payroll has expanded by 38,000 extra staff.

Increases in public sector over the period due to general rounds total €2,479m (or 24.3%), “special” pay increases (primarily Benchmarking) total €1,328m (or 13%), and other factors (such as extra numbers) total €2,193m (or 21.6%).

The increase in the average industrial wage for a male worker in the period 2001-2005, was 19%. The Exchequer’s annual wages and pensions bill increased sharply from €10.2 billion in 2001 to €16.2bn last year, with what has been termed "benchmarking" accounting for up to €1.32bn of the rise.

The number of public servants grew by 38,760, or 18%, since 2001 to 257,013 last January.

The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%.

The average weekly earnings for non-health service public sector workers stood at €848 last September, according to the CSO.

This was above the €754 for the banking and insurance sector and €579 for industrial workers.

It's a good period because, remember this was all built on property windfall taxes, that have disappeared.

LarrytheLantern

Terry wrote: »

You do all know that this is to pay for NAMA, right?
That the knock-on effect will more than likely lead to strikes and more patients left on trollies.

But hey, you're all private sector workers who look down on those employed by the government because your taxes pay their wages, right?

Fúck the terminally ill and those needing emergency treatment. It's all about you and your disposable income.

In two months you will all be complaining about further rises on the live register and blaming the government for it, little realising how much of an effect this will have on the PPP of the country.

Praise Harney.

I disagree totally.
Many of these public servants (self servants more like) simply hide behind the old, the sick, the infirm, school children in order to sustain their bloated & protected status. As was pointed out this week, the overwhelming majority (95%) of the Dept. of Education budget goes not on schools, or on children, but on teacher's salaries & benefits.

These highly unionized self servants are desperate to protect themselves from the harsh reality of the economic disaster that has befallen us, and will cynically exploit the least able in society to do so. And when they feel they no longer can hide behind the old, sick & our school going children, then they will happily walk-out on them to further their aims.

Thankfully the public is beginning at last to seen through their self-serving agenda.

About time too!:mad:

K-9

PS. The really frustrating thing is, a lot of good work was done with this money. Classroom and Special Needs Assistants in schools, better cancer treatment rates (despite the scandals) and great work on reducing Heart disease.

Stinicker

The entire HSE should go into liquidation and be given over at no cost to a private concern to run it as they see fit. Most middle class taxpayers in Ireland know the shambles the HSE is and thus are paying twice for a two tier health system, get rid of Public heathcare and let the market decide.

This just 5,000 redundancies in the HSE, what about all the excess fat in the civil service and in the other various public bodies, County Councils are laden with "jobs for the boys" when all maintenance should be privatised and roads would be actually be repaired properly and on time besides the sort of social employment enjoyed at present.

There needs to be at least 100,000 redundancies from state employment across the board be it HSE, Councils, or unnecessary quangos. Merge all county councils into provincial councils and outsource every single detail. Introduce anti-Union legislation and make joining a Union a sackable offence at the employers discretion.

fonecrusher1

K-9 wrote: »

PS. The really frustrating thing is, a lot of good work was done with this money. Classroom and Special Needs Assistants in schools, better cancer treatment rates (despite the scandals) and great work on reducing Heart disease.

Yeah but the real work was probably done by a very small percentage of the health sector. Theres no way those sort of staff/salary increases are justified for low importance pencil pushers positions/document technicians (hey john, put that form over there will you?) & people pretending to do valued work.

Its disturbing how wreckless the government were with pay rises for the untouchable public service workforce.

Firefox11

If they don't meet the 5000 target by the deadline, what happens then?? I assume it becomes compulsory then.

Stinicker

Firefox11 wrote: »

If they don't meet the 5000 target by the deadline, what happens then?? I assume it becomes compulsory then.

Compulsory is a word used in state employment very sparingly. Especially when it comes to actually doing any work. The morning solitare game on the pc is almost compulsory I beleive though as is elevenses, lunch, tea time and finishing work at 4pm.

perri winkles

I know I probably will get slated or slagged for saying this, but my dad works for the HSE and we are all terrified that he will have to take this "voluntary" redundancy.

He went back to college, worked his way up, from porter to a supervisor position and has been working in the same (small) hospital for 27 years. He certainly is not making big money as alot of people seem to think. They are struggling big time.

It is so distressing to read through this thread and see all the comments lumping all HSE workers together. I don't even know why Im leaving this comment, I certainly don't know enough about the current situation with the HSE to wade in and try defend it. It's just very very worrying

kraggy

kelle wrote: »

I doubt if HSE clerical officers earn €20k in 25 weeks - that's over €40k a year!

Anyway, interesting calculation considering a few I know have at least 30 years service and said they would take a good redundancy pakage if the opportunity arose!

I said after 5 years service, and also stated "not more than 20,000".

I was just talking ballpark figures and giving maximum numbers to show that, even if they get that much, it's still not worth leaving a solid job for it.

kraggy

Firefox11 wrote: »

If they don't meet the 5000 target by the deadline, what happens then?? I assume it becomes compulsory then.

The 5000 target isn't exact. They want to make savings of €400m so if loads of higher managment people with loads of service under their belt decide to go for early retirement/voluntary redundancy, then the figure will only have to be about 3000 staff.

It all depends on the mix of those who go for it.

Sardonicat

Something like this should have been undertaken when the HSE was established in 2004. What took them so long?

Rented Mule

Just send in the IMF already.

Close thread.

LarrytheLantern

Watch 'n wait as the unions start to squeal like scalded pigs, ably aided & abetted by their political allies in the Labour party (although silence from the latter might speak volumes). You wont be able to turn your bicycle on O'Connell Street for all the James Connolly wanabees doing the rounds.

They'll be telling us all how this is "an attack on the working classes" & how they are the only ones who will/can "protect the sick 'n elderly".

Does anyone realize the size of the salaries some of these down-trodden union leaders like Blair Horan or Jack O'Connor are enjoying? (not to mention their Fás fringe-benefits).:(

doleman2010

About time but too little to late id say , what a bunch of overpaid slackers , the unions are at fault here also stopping change at every chance.
Where is Bertie now ? he was the one who gave all these muppets a free hand.
Wexford General hosp . 200 beds ___HAS over 1000 people on the payroll. with that level of staff we should have a Rolls royce health care standards .In stead we have to for settle third rate third world KIA standards.

K-9

Sardonicat wrote: »

Something like this should have been undertaken when the HSE was established in 2004. What took them so long?

Bertie and the Unions agreed no redundancies from what? 11 Health Boards.

Sardonicat

K-9 wrote: »

Bertie and the Unions agreed no redundancies from what? 11 Health Boards.

Confused? Utterly bewildered, more like!

No redundancies, fine. But why replace staff that retire, or refill lower grades with people moving up the ladder (which presumably is why it's so engorged at upper managment level.)

The awful thing is, this was predicted when HSE was first established and no-one took a blind bit of notice.

The thing that is worrying me here is the "support staff" that are for the high jump. Does that mean care assistants, kithchen workers, laundry staff and cleaners?

Any HSE "support staff" here able to explain what that term means?

holystungun9

galwayrush wrote: »

If it was a private company, a lot more that 5000 would have been sacked long ago.

Yep, and don't jump down my throat for paraphrasing Michael O Leary but he said in an interview with Ray D'Arcy that the problem with the TDs that make up our government is that none of them have run anything in their lives. There is a need for business savvy people, entrepreneurs etc in our government. Retired Teachers etc. only have so much experience.

FoxT

If the HSE has 100,000 on the payroll, then natural wastage will surely see them losing about 2500 people a year?

If that is the case, why pay people up to 2 years pay to leave now? Why not just sit back, let the 2,500 a year retire as normal, replace just say 4-500 of these, & watch the numbers fall?

- Doing this will take longer but cost about the same as early leavers now will receive up to 2 years pay
- It would allow the HSE to ramp down in an orderly fashion vs a big bang when they wake up 1 morning & suddenly find 5000 people gone.

Would take discipline though...Aha! maybe not so good after all...

Capt'n Midnight

€400 million / 5,000 = €80,000 and that's an average !!!

And it's being offered to people who are near retirement , sounds like there will be a lot of golden handshakes

please tell me that people with less than two years to go till retirement will be excluded form the scheme, but this is Ireland

and no doubt there will be a lot of last in , first out too because of unions , so tiny savings will be made at the cost of a lot of hardship


we are paying 7% a year on bonds

so while it might save €200m a year it will cost about €30m to service the debt so the savings won't appear until the middle of 2013