Cheque time

phill106

I am fuming listening to the news.
In the 90s, public sector moved from a cash wages system to issuing cheques. They then graciously allowed staff 30 minutes off a week to lodge said cheques in their banks.
The year is now 2010. None of them are now paid by cheque. They want to keep cheque time...
Really?

YOU AREN'T PAID BY CHEQUE ANYMORE!

CiaranMT

Talk to Joe.

thebigbiffo

i'm sorry but did you expect the civil service to be reasonable? to live in the real world?

thought not

Danbo!

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

Teutorix

Danbo! wrote: »

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

And this is why our country is so great.

billymitchell

Ah, its only money

policarp

They're probably all checking their bank accounts during working hours.
So double whammy...

mikemac

Nothing like a bit of outrage in AH

Be assured OP that this is already sorted and it'll be gone next week once we enter November

THE GOVERNMENT is to end the traditional practice of giving time off to civil servants to cash their pay cheques. Also to be reviewed are the additional privilege days off provided to staff at Christmas and Easter.

The Department of Finance told union leaders yesterday the fortnightly half-hour time-off, initially given to civil servants many years ago before direct electronic lodgments became common, would be eliminated from next month.

This arrangement, known as “banking time”, was ended for new staff in 2003, but remains in place for most Civil Service personnel.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1023/1224281826796.html

CiaranMT

That's that then.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

phill106 wrote: »

I am fuming listening to the news.
In the 90s, public sector moved from a cash wages system to issuing cheques. They then graciously allowed staff 30 minutes off a week to lodge said cheques in their banks.
The year is now 2010. None of them are now paid by cheque. They want to keep cheque time...
Really?

YOU AREN'T PAID BY CHEQUE ANYMORE!

Where does it say this?

Biggins

Makes sense to end this defunct practise.

AnonoBoy

"Stop! Cheque Time!

U Can't Touch This!"



I love 90's rap.

the_syco

phill106 wrote: »

The year is now 2010. None of them are now paid by cheque. They want to keep cheque time...
Really?

YOU AREN'T PAID BY CHEQUE ANYMORE!

When I worked in SDCC a few years back (maybe 3 years ago) for summer, myself and all other temp staff were paid by cheque (everyone else was paid directly into their accoutn). But as we were not full timers, we had to cash our cheque on our own lunch times...

gazzer

Im a Civil Servant and I agree that the bank time should be scrapped. It is worth an hour to me a month (get paid fortnightly) but in this day and age it is rediculous to have it. I think the CPSU are really kicking themselves in the foot by objecting to the removal of this time. I know that lower paid Civil Servants benefit more from it (they get it every week as they get paid weekly) but there is no excuse to keep it when we are going through reform.

phill106

phill106 wrote: »

I am fuming listening to the news.
In the 90s, public sector moved from a cash wages system to issuing cheques. They then graciously allowed staff 30 minutes off a week to lodge said cheques in their banks.
The year is now 2010. None of them are now paid by cheque. They want to keep cheque time...
Really?

YOU AREN'T PAID BY CHEQUE ANYMORE!

But most people take at least that out of their week if not more anyway for doing stuff like going to the bank etc. Unless you have to be at your phone, at a counter. I would imagine most jobs public or private office type jobs anyway over look people slying away for a bit to get stuff done.

up for anything

Danbo! wrote: »

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

Work that out to how many extra working days off, in total for the whole CS. I tried but I'm crap at maths and it seemed to run into years.

Danbo!

up for anything wrote: »

Work that out to how many extra working days off, in total for the whole CS. I tried but I'm crap at maths and it seemed to run into years.

If my maths is correct, it would pay the wages of 1,554 staff at the average 46k a year

Ronin247

Danbo! wrote: »

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

Of course you are missing the point,a lot of them would be doing f**k all anyway so it doesnt count as any extra waste.

When I say "a lot " I do not mean to tar all civil servants with the Lazy shiftless useless ba**ard brush. To the hardworking,productive,helpful and honest civil servants I hope neither of you were offended.

Benny_Cake

I've been in the CS since 2003 and have never had "bank time",it was terminated for all new entrants quite a while back.Haven't heard anyone complaining about it being taken away tbh.

dvpower

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Haven't heard anyone complaining about it being taken away tbh.

The CPSU are.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/pay.html

It's bizarre that they would choose to fight this. Does the Croke Park agreement mean nothing to them?

dxhound2005

Danbo! wrote: »

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

Chances are you have one in your family or extended family. Get on to them and give out.

SeanyM

Danbo! wrote: »

Pfft whats half an hour every two weeks?




Average PS pay = €46,000 a year, or €22 per hour assuming a 40hr week, so cheque time is €11 per employee.

Paid every fortnight, thats 26 payments pear year, €286.

Paid to ~250,000 public sector workers, €71.5m per year.

For your information, that average is based on the combination of ALL grades of PS workers. PS workers work on a flexi system. Most higher grades dont use this system, or any clocking system, due to the impracticality of it in relation to the nature of their jobs ie, most higher grades attend meetings, do a lot of offsite work, travel etc and so cannot be expected to clock in and out if they are not always in the building, so this bank time really only affects the lowly grades, which are also the lowly paid. So you can scrap your little calculation there as these higher grades make up the bulk of that figure.

That measly half hour per fortnight is one of the few privileges of being a PS worker. You can all bitch and moan about them but the reality of it is that they were the only ones who did not benefit in the slightest during the boom, yet they are the very ones digging this country out of the pitiful hole it has found itsself in.

Its very easy to get a dig at the "highly paid" PS workers, but in reality the majority of them are on a pathetic wage. If you must take out yor frustration then at least aim it at the higher graded, and higher paid of the lot.

The average PS wage is nothing to write home about, certainly not something to gloat about. There is a minority on a ridiculous wage that is giving them all a bad name.

But the truth is that if the job is so fantastically paid, and apparently has so many perks (such as the ENORMOUS 12hrs PER YEAR banking time that they get on their clock) then why did nobody want the job during the boom?? Why did everybody choose instead the shiny shiny life in the private sector? While the private sector workers sat back laughing at the public sector, buying up properties, driving flash cars, and lapping up the luxury of bonuses and company paid nights out, the PS workers simply trudged on with their mediocre pay and their fan-bloody-tastic half bloody hour per fortnight bank time.

Get a grip people.

orourkeda

phill106 wrote: »

I am fuming listening to the news.
In the 90s, public sector moved from a cash wages system to issuing cheques. They then graciously allowed staff 30 minutes off a week to lodge said cheques in their banks.
The year is now 2010. None of them are now paid by cheque. They want to keep cheque time...
Really?

YOU AREN'T PAID BY CHEQUE ANYMORE!

Smokers probably spend that amount of time outside smoking every day.

vincentdunne

Hey, Why did'nt someone tell me I could take 30 minutes off to cash a non existant cheque??? You mean I have been missing out on this for the last 36 years? Jeez, there is no justice in this world.

By the way, we are paid by the month, and don't get 30 minutes off to cash anything. You are just being a very naughty boy (and silly, also)

gurramok

SeanyM wrote: »

For your information, that average is based on the combination of ALL grades of PS workers. PS workers work on a flexi system. Most higher grades dont use this system, or any clocking system, due to the impracticality of it in relation to the nature of their jobs ie, most higher grades attend meetings, do a lot of offsite work, travel etc and so cannot be expected to clock in and out if they are not always in the building, so this bank time really only affects the lowly grades, which are also the lowly paid. So you can scrap your little calculation there as these higher grades make up the bulk of that figure.

That measly half hour per fortnight is one of the few privileges of being a PS worker. You can all bitch and moan about them but the reality of it is that they were the only ones who did not benefit in the slightest during the boom, yet they are the very ones digging this country out of the pitiful hole it has found itsself in.

Its very easy to get a dig at the "highly paid" PS workers, but in reality the majority of them are on a pathetic wage. If you must take out yor frustration then at least aim it at the higher graded, and higher paid of the lot.

The average PS wage is nothing to write home about, certainly not something to gloat about. There is a minority on a ridiculous wage that is giving them all a bad name.

But the truth is that if the job is so fantastically paid, and apparently has so many perks (such as the ENORMOUS 12hrs PER YEAR banking time that they get on their clock) then why did nobody want the job during the boom?? Why did everybody choose instead the shiny shiny life in the private sector? While the private sector workers sat back laughing at the public sector, buying up properties, driving flash cars, and lapping up the luxury of bonuses and company paid nights out, the PS workers simply trudged on with their mediocre pay and their fan-bloody-tastic half bloody hour per fortnight bank time.

Get a grip people.

Blue - Benchmarking

Red - Define a Pathetic wage

SeanyM

Benchmarking - was retracted

5yrs service and still on 28k and even with 40 yrs service at the lower grade will not go past approx 33k.

during the boom i had a friend who worked for quinn direct and with bonuses was earning about 40k pa, doing the same hrs as myself, and was only in the door.

But he chose big wages over job stability, yet is now bitching about PS workers. He had many a chance, as did everyone else, to join the PS, but chose not to as it seemed a pathetic choice compared to potential earnings in the private sector back then.

dvpower

SeanyM wrote: »

Get a grip people.

The boom is over. We can no longer afford your services at the levels you are charging.

We would like to keep as many of you on as we can; we recognise that you provide valuable services and we want to retain as many of these as we can, but the prices we are willing to pay for them are now changed utterly. We are currently borrowing nearly 20bn each year to keep afloat and some people want to retain an extra 1/2 hour pay per fortnight to cash a cheque they no longer get.

Get a grip.

gurramok

SeanyM wrote: »

Benchmarking - was retracted

5yrs service and still on 28k and even with 40 yrs service at the lower grade will not go past approx 33k.

during the boom i had a friend who worked for quinn direct and with bonuses was earning about 40k pa, doing the same hrs as myself, and was only in the door.

But he chose big wages over job stability, yet is now bitching about PS workers. He had many a chance, as did everyone else, to join the PS, but chose not to as it seemed a pathetic choice compared to potential earnings in the private sector back then.

Since when was benchmarking retracted? It was enacted since 2002 with pay rises based on zero reforms in return. Plus they got increments based on no performance but on years served.

28k after 5 yrs? Welcome to the private sector, at least you have a solid gold pension and an unsackable job.

bleg

SeanyM wrote: »

Get a grip people.

You get a grip. They aren't paid by cheque any more, so "cheque time" is being phased out. It's perfectly logical and reasonable.

I'm completely confused as to 1. why it still exists when cheques were phased out ages ago and 2. how people can argue for it remaining in place.

SeanyM

a "gold pension" that we are now paying for 100% ourselves. which basically means we put by a little each payday for 40yrs to get it paid back to us when we retire. Woo-frickin-hoo.

yes we may have gathered a pitiful extra in our paypackets with benchmarking, but it has been taken back from us penny by penny over the last couple of yrs with reductions in pay.

no job is unsackable, but the only perk of this job is "job security". You all could have taken advantage of it, but didnt, and its too late to bitch about it now.

Basically all the big boom big spenders out there are looking for a scapegoat, and childishly latched on to the medias way of thinking.

dont believe everything u read in the papers.

orourkeda

SeanyM wrote: »

Benchmarking - was retracted

5yrs service and still on 28k and even with 40 yrs service at the lower grade will not go past approx 33k.

during the boom i had a friend who worked for quinn direct and with bonuses was earning about 40k pa, doing the same hrs as myself, and was only in the door.

But he chose big wages over job stability, yet is now bitching about PS workers. He had many a chance, as did everyone else, to join the PS, but chose not to as it seemed a pathetic choice compared to potential earnings in the private sector back then.

I worked there. I can tell you that didnt last long

gurramok

SeanyM wrote: »

a "gold pension" that we are now paying for 100% ourselves. which basically means we put by a little each payday for 40yrs to get it paid back to us when we retire. Woo-frickin-hoo.

and you get better returns upon retirement than your private sector counterpart.

SeanyM wrote: »

yes we may have gathered a pitiful extra in our paypackets with benchmarking, but it has been taken back from us penny by penny over the last couple of yrs with reductions in pay.

Ye gathered hell of alot to be far overpaid for the role ye are in. Try getting a job in the private sector now at your wage. Oh wait, there are no jobs!

SeanyM wrote: »

no job is unsackable, but the only perk of this job is "job security". You all could have taken advantage of it, but didnt, and its too late to bitch about it now.

Proven decisively wrong in the Politics Forum. Take a gander over there and argue your case if you dare!

SeanyM wrote: »

Basically all the big boom big spenders out there are looking for a scapegoat, and childishly latched on to the medias way of thinking.

dont believe everything u read in the papers.

Huh? We pay your wages so have you been productive ?

SeanyM

bleg wrote: »

You get a grip. They aren't paid by cheque any more, so "cheque time" is being phased out. It's perfectly logical and reasonable.

I'm completely confused as to 1. why it still exists when cheques were phased out ages ago and 2. how people can argue for it remaining in place.

1. its not "cheque time", its "bank time". That does not specify whether the staff are paid by cheque, cash, or eft, it just entitles the staff to half an hour to go to the bank to avoid the lunch time queues when social welfare scroungers are lodging THEIR cheques.

2. I personally couldnt give a flying f*ck if i lost the bank time, im just personally sick of all the moaners out there. There are bigger problems in the world!

dvpower

SeanyM wrote: »

a "gold pension" that we are now paying for 100% ourselves. which basically means we put by a little each payday for 40yrs to get it paid back to us when we retire. Woo-frickin-hoo.

You have now left NonsenseLand and have arrived at DelusionVille.

Do the sums. Work out how much it would cost to buy a defined benefits pension that pays half a salary per annum and 1 1/2 salary as a tax free lump sum.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SeanyM wrote: »

Benchmarking - was retracted

5yrs service and still on 28k and even with 40 yrs service at the lower grade will not go past approx 33k.

during the boom i had a friend who worked for quinn direct and with bonuses was earning about 40k pa, doing the same hrs as myself, and was only in the door.

But he chose big wages over job stability, yet is now bitching about PS workers. He had many a chance, as did everyone else, to join the PS, but chose not to as it seemed a pathetic choice compared to potential earnings in the private sector back then.

Having worked in public and private sector, I'm not goign to get into that debate - there are pros and cons to every job - but I still don't see an answer the question as to why people should object to it being scrapped.

1. its not "cheque time", its "bank time". That does not specify whether the staff are paid by cheque, cash, or eft, it just entitles the staff to half an hour to go to the bank to avoid the lunch time queues when social welfare scroungers are lodging THEIR cheques.

... and that little dig was completely below the belt and unnessecary. Also, social welfare recepients get paid aty the post office in cash, not the bank.

RoadKillTs

LOUD NOISES

SeanyM

dvpower wrote: »

The boom is over. We can no longer afford your services at the levels you are charging.

We would like to keep as many of you on as we can; we recognise that you provide valuable services and we want to retain as many of these as we can, but the prices we are willing to pay for them are now changed utterly. We are currently borrowing nearly 20bn each year to keep afloat and some people want to retain an extra 1/2 hour pay per fortnight to cash a cheque they no longer get.

Get a grip.

Personally i havent heard one colleague object to the bank time being taken away. its not that big a deal. And life is not as simple as we needed your services but now we dont. These workers have families to support, mortgages/bills to pay. Its not as simple as bye bye! God how i wish your mother/father/sister/brother/son/daughter was a PS worker who got the scak.

Attitudes might change then eh?

SeanyM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Having worked in public and private sector, I'm not goign to get into that debate - there are pros and cons to every job - but I still don't see an answer the question as to why people should object to it being scrapped.



... and that little dig was completely below the belt and unnessecary. Also, social welfare recepients get paid aty the post office in cash, not the bank.

They lodge their huge Rent Supplement cheques in the bank, i know for a fact.

SeanyM

orourkeda wrote: »

I worked there. I can tell you that didnt last long

shoulda gone down the public sector route so.

SeanyM

gurramok wrote: »

and you get better returns upon retirement than your private sector counterpart.



Ye gathered hell of alot to be far overpaid for the role ye are in. Try getting a job in the private sector now at your wage. Oh wait, there are no jobs!



Proven decisively wrong in the Politics Forum. Take a gander over there and argue your case if you dare!



Huh? We pay your wages so have you been productive ?

This i cannot emphasise enough - the Ps cried out for workers during the boom, if we live in such a magical & fantastic world you should have come joined us!

gurramok

SeanyM wrote: »

This i cannot emphasise enough - the Ps cried out for workers during the boom, if we live in such a magical & fantastic world you should have come joined us!

Haha funny man. As proven in the Politics forum there were countless entrants to the PS year on year.

Face the fact, the Irish state cannot afford you and welcome to cutbacks as none of you lost yer jobs, only temps did.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SeanyM wrote: »

They lodge their huge Rent Supplement cheques in the bank, i know for a fact.

Doesn't explain the worthless dig, especially considering one of your benefits is job security.

One thing i would honestly like to know (because the thread source is vague): IS there actually any objection amongst public sector works to the scrapping of the rule, or is that just AH/journalistic ****stirring? I know one of the unions was against it, but no reasons were given.

SeanyM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Doesn't explain the worthless dig, especially considering one of your benefits is job security.

One thing i would honestly like to know (because the thread source is vague): IS there actually any objection amongst public sector works to the scrapping of the rule, or is that just AH/journalistic ****stirring? I know one of the unions was against it, but no reasons were given.

you vent your anger, i vent mine. im sick of hearing that we are responsible for the destruction of this country when there are scroungers sittin on their ass taking advantage of this country, i for one will be the first to stand up for people in a difficult situation with no choice other than to rely on benefits to get them through a tough time. If they've lost their job then by all means take every single benefit that you are entitled to, because in so many cases these people have paid their taxes for that very reason. and in the case of people who have any sort of disability then of course the state should do absolutely everything in its power to help these people. But in my line of work i see people day in day out living off benefits simply because they can. And it sickens me that im am being personally attacked, despite the fact that i got off my ass and got a job and do a full weeks work week in week out, breaking my balls only to be hit with criticism everytime i open a bloody newspaper.

dvpower

SeanyM wrote: »

Personally i havent heard one colleague object to the bank time being taken away. its not that big a deal. And life is not as simple as we needed your services but now we dont. These workers have families to support, mortgages/bills to pay. Its not as simple as bye bye! God how i wish your mother/father/sister/brother/son/daughter was a PS worker who got the scak.

Attitudes might change then eh?

The CPSU are objecting. I posted a link earlier in the thread.

I have a lot of family members working in the PS and I worked in the civil service both here and abroad for a good number of years. I've got a lot of respect for the work that they do but there are are realities here. WE CANT AFFORD THESE SERVICES. We need to have a much cheaper public service.

In other industries getting the sack is a reality of life. the company where I work, we made 1/3 of the staff redundant around the start of the recession. We didn't have the luxury of an unlimited taxpayer bailout. why should you?

ejmaztec

People give me cheques and I have to have Elastoplast Time to recover from paper-cuts. I'm glad I'm not a Haemopheliac, I'd never get any work done at all.

SeanyM

SeanyM wrote: »

you vent your anger, i vent mine. im sick of hearing that we are responsible for the destruction of this country when there are scroungers sittin on their ass taking advantage of this country, i for one will be the first to stand up for people in a difficult situation with no choice other than to rely on benefits to get them through a tough time. If they've lost their job then by all means take every single benefit that you are entitled to, because in so many cases these people have paid their taxes for that very reason. and in the case of people who have any sort of disability then of course the state should do absolutely everything in its power to help these people. But in my line of work i see people day in day out living off benefits simply because they can. And it sickens me that im am being personally attacked, despite the fact that i got off my ass and got a job and do a full weeks work week in week out, breaking my balls only to be hit with criticism everytime i open a bloody newspaper.

oh sorry i forgot to reply to your other question, no i honestly have not heard any objection to the retraction of bank time. it really isnt that big a deal, i think that yet again the media are putting it out there to turn the public against us yet again. I have had so many paycuts, and like everyone else the income levy, but i honestly dont mind, if that is what is needed to fix this country then so be it. What i dont agree with is the pblic lynching of PS workers. We are just people like yourselves, tying to get by and pay the bills.

dvpower

SeanyM wrote: »

shoulda gone down the public sector route so.

This is the most dumb PS argument ever.
Its made by people who haven't yet faced the reality (I hope) of the impending change in the public service.

dxhound2005

Below is part of the statement from the CPSU. Given that the population of the country increased from 3.705 to 4.47 million in the period the 22% increase in junior ranks could be justified. However the others are just evidence of empire building and could surely be pruned to provide some savings. This is not an argument for keeping the cheque thing but you wouldn't expect the union to roll over straight away. Everyone wants to keep what they have, the bankers mega pay and bonuses, electricians special pay rates etc etc.

The CPSU General Secretary points to the disproportionate increase in higher management grades in the civil service.
Between 1998 and 2009 there was a 60% increase in the number of Assistant Secretaries General.
There was a 462% increase in the number of Higher Principal Officers, with a 43% increase in the number of Principal Officers.
The number of Higher Assistant Principals soared by 339%, the number of Assistant Principals rose by 61%, and the number of Higher Executive officers by 72%.
Executive officers rose by just over 100%.
However, at the lower end of the pay scales, staff officer numbers were up by just 22%, and the ranks of clerical officers only increased by 14%.

starbelgrade

SeanyM wrote: »

1. its not "cheque time", its "bank time". That does not specify whether the staff are paid by cheque, cash, or eft, it just entitles the staff to half an hour to go to the bank to avoid the lunch time queues when social welfare scroungers are lodging THEIR cheques.

2. I personally couldnt give a flying f*ck if i lost the bank time, im just personally sick of all the moaners out there. There are bigger problems in the world!

How can you say that you are sick of moaners & also call people on the dole "social welfare scroungers" in the same post?

And as far as I know, SW recipients don't get paid by cheque & they get paid in the Post Office & not the bank.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SeanyM wrote: »

you vent your anger, i vent mine. im sick of hearing that we are responsible for the destruction of this country when there are scroungers sittin on their ass taking advantage of this country, i for one will be the first to stand up for people in a difficult situation with no choice other than to rely on benefits to get them through a tough time. If they've lost their job then by all means take every single benefit that you are entitled to, because in so many cases these people have paid their taxes for that very reason. and in the case of people who have any sort of disability then of course the state should do absolutely everything in its power to help these people. But in my line of work i see people day in day out living off benefits simply because they can. And it sickens me that im am being personally attacked, despite the fact that i got off my ass and got a job and do a full weeks work week in week out, breaking my balls only to be hit with criticism everytime i open a bloody newspaper.

Chill. You'll live longer. This public sector v private sector thing really needs to be ****ing put to bed. Not aimed at you personally, aimed at people from both sides. Never went in much for schadenfreude. Everyone's suffering, and yet peope are trying to make others suffer more.

SeanyM wrote: »

oh sorry i forgot to reply to your other question, no i honestly have not heard any objection to the retraction of bank time. it really isnt that big a deal, i think that yet again the media are putting it out there to turn the public against us yet again.

Fair enough. I though as much, to be honest.

SeanyM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Chill. You'll live longer. This public sector v private sector thing really needs to be ****ing put to bed. Not aimed at you personally, aimed at people from both sides. Never went in much for schadenfreude. Everyone's suffering, and yet peope are trying to make others suffer more.

Could not agree with you more. You seem like a reasonable person if only we'd put YOU in government! i know i seem to have got caught up in the whole public v private sector but to be honest i respect anybody who gets out and earns a living, i do agree that there are people out there on ridiculous wages, both public and private sector, but it just seems like the whole country is turning on themselves, and thats not gonna get us anywhere.

Fair enough. I though as much, to be honest.

.