Penalties for poisioning birds of prey introduced!

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

who's going to take the photos though? you're still facing the issue that the people who want this law enforced are probably in the minority in these areas.

i.

Let be clear here - its a small minority within the farming commmunity that is still indulging in this disgusting practice and can now not hide behind the loopholes in the old laws, which in turn strengthens the hand of everyone from Wildlife rangers to concerned members of the public who come across carcasses in suspicious circumstances. I'm not saying its going to halt the problem overnight, far from it, but it certainly leaves the scumbags who do this nowhere to hide in terms of the law etc.

sables2

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would like to think that the law will be enforced, but i am sceptical about a country guard responding to a complaint if one was received. it's a very tough law to enforce, especially in terms of changing attitudes.

Hi magicbastarder,
Yes, good point in deed. to enforce it is 'gonna be TOUGH. It's all about mind sets. Plain and simple really. The country Garda is more than likely having a pint with the farmer if right be know also. It's a double edged sword. We have to have more 'pressure groups' and internet resources on going.

bibio

Education is the key, work with all stakeholders to show that they dont have to lay poison on carcasses. Look at it from the perspective of an elderly farmer in remote areas of Ireland. Foxes are killing his lambs and he is losing income, when financially he is hanging on by his fingertips.

He cannot physically control foxes by other means, what is the easy way, lace a carcass with poison, kill the foxes and as we all know kill any non target species as well. Trying to force these people to not lay poison with threats is not in my experience the most productive way to change attitiudes.
Much better to educate them, that there is other more effective ways to deal with their fox problem, perhpas put them in touch with hunters to shoot thier foxes during lambing.

I know we are all passionate about this issue, but lets keep perspective, no Eagle re-introduction would succeed without co operation of the majority of farmers. Farmers dont lay poison to kill eagles or just for the sake of it, they lay poison because they think (mistakenly) it is the only solution to their vermin problem.

There will always be one or two incidents, but if all work together they will become fewer and fewer.

Birdnuts

bibio wrote: »

Education is the key, work with all stakeholders to show that they dont have to lay poison on carcasses. Look at it from the perspective of an elderly farmer in remote areas of Ireland. Foxes are killing his lambs and he is losing income, when financially he is hanging on by his fingertips.

He cannot physically control foxes by other means, what is the easy way, lace a carcass with poison, kill the foxes and as we all know kill any non target species as well. Trying to force these people to not lay poison with threats is not in my experience the most productive way to change attitiudes.
Much better to educate them, that there is other more effective ways to deal with their fox problem, perhpas put them in touch with hunters to shoot thier foxes during lambing.

I know we are all passionate about this issue, but lets keep perspective, no Eagle re-introduction would succeed without co operation of the majority of farmers. Farmers dont lay poison to kill eagles or just for the sake of it, they lay poison because they think (mistakenly) it is the only solution to their vermin problem.

There will always be one or two incidents, but if all work together they will become fewer and fewer.

That is no excuse for breaking the law!! - if a farmer is that elderly then one would have to ask is he up to providing a proper level of husbandry for his livestock at any level?? - In any case nearly every parish in the country has gun club members that are only too happy to dispatch foxes or any other vermin in an efficient, targeted and humane way .

PS: My grandfather had the misfortune to live near one of these types - he and his neighbour lost numerious priceless sheepdogs to this guys activities on the local commonage:mad:

recedite

Birdnuts wrote: »

if a farmer is that elderly then one would have to ask is he up to providing a proper level of husbandry for his livestock at any level??

Exactly, the elderly farmer routine is a very poor excuse, but is often quoted nonetheless.
Gun club members are always looking for permission to shoot on land. A shooter can often take out 10 foxes in one night. So where is he going to go the next time?

Connacht

Lads, Bibio is right - the issue is lack of education and the solution is provision of education.
The re-introduction programmes have cost loads of money by now, I guess. In the context of chartering aircraft from Norway to Kerry, dispatching the amazing project leaders to the donating countries for whatever lengths of time and other high costs, here is what should be done (if it hasn't already been).
3 or 4 Welsh farmers and the same from Norway should be stuck on Ryanair flights to Kerry etc, wined and dined for three days and brought into the communities to give talks and Q&A sessions with local farmers and no NPWS, Dept of Enviro or other non-farmers present.
Provide interpreters for the Norwegians and let them off. This would entail minimal costs compared to other elements of the ongoing programmes and would involve no 'lecturing' from people the farmers don't want to hear from. Simple.

Mothman

Quick Mod note,
Please take the finer details of shooting/hunting elsewhere.

Thanks
MM

sables2

Connacht wrote: »

Lads, Bibio is right - the issue is lack of education and the solution is provision of education.
The re-introduction programmes have cost loads of money by now, I guess. In the context of chartering aircraft from Norway to Kerry, dispatching the amazing project leaders to the donating countries for whatever lengths of time and other high costs, here is what should be done (if it hasn't already been).
3 or 4 Welsh farmers and the same from Norway should be stuck on Ryanair flights to Kerry etc, wined and dined for three days and brought into the communities to give talks and Q&A sessions with local farmers and no NPWS, Dept of Enviro or other non-farmers present.
Provide interpreters for the Norwegians and let them off. This would entail minimal costs compared to other elements of the ongoing programmes and would involve no 'lecturing' from people the farmers don't want to hear from. Simple.

Hi Connacht,
Good points there. "Education and the solution is provision of education". Right on the mark. We NEED these skilled and dedicated men who LOVE birds of prey to come here from the over sea countries as mentioned above. Can we/ government get 'em in to do this 'punctuality implementations'? I'm not so sure, given our current financial position. If you leave out the afore mentioned organisation's you have listed there will be up roar. Some farmers Son/Daughter will say: "did you see who's in town, why weren't we told they we're coming". So your 'gonna get so many different scenarios. I feel the Government/Dept. of Environment will sit on their laurels and do nothing - it's too much hassle for them i honestly believe.

seensensee

Ricky91t wrote: »

Yes I know it's definetly not going to end these birds getting poisoned but it's nice to see the government are trying to reduce these poisonings
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1018/environment.html

The government are trying to prosecute farmers, that does not stop birds eating poisoned bait.
If you want to stop birds of prey from being poisoned then you better convince the government to compensate farmers who lose livestock to the birds.
Lamb, goat, deer are all on the menu, believe it or not.
http://news.scotsman.com/birdsofprey/Angry-island-farmers-seek-compensation.6126343.jp

Mothman

seensensee Do not contribute to this thread again

Everyone else, do not reply to last post. This is not representative of the farming community and I will not tolerate general farmer bashing that it may provoke.

The issue of compensation will not be conducted in this forum.
Here is some off forum reading about predation of lambs by White-tailed Eagles in scotland.

The legalities of poisoning have been well covered in this thread already.

Birdnuts

Mothman wrote: »

seensensee Do not contribute to this thread again

Everyone else, do not reply to last post. This is not representative of the farming community and I will not tolerate general farmer bashing that it may provoke.

The issue of compensation will not be conducted in this forum.
Here is some off forum reading about predation of lambs by White-tailed Eagles in scotland.

The legalities of poisoning have been well covered in this thread already.

Thanx for that Mothman - confirms the results of this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8672303.stm

study which shows that Sea-Eagles in Scotland are reponsible for less then 2% of lamb deaths in areas where they occur - that means a farmer would have to lose 50 lambs in one year(to other factors like disease, weather etc.) to lose one to a Sea-Eagle, thereby debunking the ridicolous claims of a handfull of crofters (I won't go into their motivation for obvious reasons):)

Feargal as Luimneach

New laws in Scotland tackling Raptor persecution:
http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/?p=2670

homerhop

Two advertisements in the Carlow Nationalist in the last two weeks for lands preserved both stating posion laid.

recedite

homerhop wrote: »

Two advertisements in the Carlow Nationalist in the last two weeks for lands preserved both stating posion laid.

The new law can be found here;
http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/Na...d,24240,en.pdf

Relevant bit is on page 5;

"Prohibition of use of certain poisoned bait
4. (1) A person shall not place, cause to be placed or permit to be placed or
have with him or her any poisoned or anaesthetic bait that is animal or contains animal substance or other animal derivative in any place to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure or where it is likely to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure:
(i) any species referred to in Article 1 of the Birds Directive, or

(ii) any species of wild fauna listed in Annexes IV

Habitats Directive, except in accordance with a licence."

My own interpretation of the above is that the poisoners will still put bait out for foxes, but they will have to cover it or hide it, and this will make all the difference to the survival of the raptors.

sables2

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

New laws in Scotland tackling Raptor persecution:
http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/?p=2670

This article is good. Detailed and through. Can't wait to study it in dept.
Thanks for that

Birdnuts

recedite wrote: »

ance with a licence."[/I]

My own interpretation of the above is that the poisoners will still put bait out for foxes, but they will have to cover it or hide it, and this will make all the difference to the survival of the raptors.

There is now no substance officially licensed for use against foxes so that doesn't stand up either - the local NPWS rangers needs to get involved here and set the landowners straight on the law as it now stands!!

recedite

Birdnuts wrote: »

There is now no substance officially licensed for use against foxes so that doesn't stand up either

I'm not sure that licencing laws are particularly useful. Suppose I decided to poison foxes with organic substances, say poisonous berries or mushrooms or bad poitín, where would I stand in relation to the law?

Birdnuts

recedite wrote: »

I'm not sure that licencing laws are particularly useful. Suppose I decided to poison foxes with organic substances, say poisonous berries or mushrooms or bad poitín, where would I stand in relation to the law?

It doesn't matter what the substance is, if it is not licensed for the purpose then it can't be used under the law.

The laws that cover the use of all poison baits for vermin are invested in the Dept of Agriculture - under these laws a substance cannot be used for vermin unless licensed by said Dept. The use of any substance that is not licensed in this way would be considered a violation of that law. Thats why there is a licensing system in place for that very reason ie. to prevent reckless idiots using household concoctions etc. in ways that put the public and/or wildlife in danger.