Penalties for poisioning birds of prey introduced!

Ricky91t

Yes I know it's definetly not going to end these birds getting poisoned but it's nice to see the government are trying to reduce these poisonings
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1018/environment.html

Pigeon Reaper

It's good news and hopefully it will be enforced.

Birdnuts

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

It's good news and hopefully it will be enforced.

Should have been here before the eagles where brought back but better late then never I suppose:rolleyes: - in any case as you mention it will be all about the enforcement!!

Kess73

I will believe it when I read of actual convictions for it.


There are plenty of other laws in place in Ireland that don't get enforced when broken so I won't be getting excited about this just yet.

E39MSport

Great news and about time too.

Also here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1018/breaking11.html

magicbastarder

Kess73 wrote: »

I will believe it when I read of actual convictions for it.

yep - how are you going to identify the source given the animal could fly several miles from the poisoning site?

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep - how are you going to identify the source given the animal could fly several miles from the poisoning site?

Well in many cases last Spring the birds were found in the near vicinity of a poisoned carcass. Indeed poor old Conal in Sligo was found right next to a poisoned lamb carcass:(

trebor28

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well in many cases last Spring the birds were found in the near vicinity of a poisoned carcass. Indeed poor old Conal in Sligo was found right next to a poisoned lamb carcass:(

but would you be able to prove that whoever owned the lamb, poisoned it?

i doubt it.

Birdnuts

trebor28 wrote: »

but would you be able to prove that whoever owned the lamb, poisoned it?

i doubt it.

Well the landowner would have to explain why he failed to dispose of a fallen animal lawfully, the presence of or lack of ear-tags etc. and the gardai would also have power to search premises depending on the type of substance used. There are also cross-compliance issues in respect of farm payments, which I believe are about to be tightened up further in this area with the ending of the CAP as we know it in 2013. I know in Kerry that landowners in areas with a recent history of this type of criminality come under closer scrutiny from the relevant Departments and have been subjected to increased spot checks/audits etc.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well the landowner

Might not know the first thing about it.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Might not know the first thing about it.

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

Of course RTE have managed to fup up the storey on the news by saying it was the use of poison to kill protected species - when in fact all poison baits have been banned except in the case of rodents:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Might not know the first thing about it.

That is of course a possibility - I'm just setting the scene about how the authorities will go about tackling this scourge and securing convictions:)

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

Of course RTE have managed to fup up the storey on the news by saying it was the use of poison to kill protected species - when in fact all poison baits have been banned except in the case of rodents:rolleyes:

Got a nice big rat in one of my traps this morning, no poison used here

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Got a nice big rat in one of my traps this morning, no poison used here

I think traps make much more sense for rodents in any case - poison often means these vermin die in places that are unreachable by the ordinary Joe Soap leading to bad smells and flies, often in or near ones house:(

trebor28

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well the landowner would have to explain why he failed to dispose of a fallen animal lawfully, the presence of or lack of ear-tags etc. and the gardai would also have power to search premises depending on the type of substance used. There are also cross-compliance issues in respect of farm payments, which I believe are about to be tightened up further in this area with the ending of the CAP as we know it in 2013. I know in Kerry that landowners in areas with a recent history of this type of criminality come under closer scrutiny from the relevant Departments and have been subjected to increased spot checks/audits etc.

in some places around the country where the bigger BOP are there are no borders for land which is essentially owned by the state but local people are allowed to graze their animals on it.

it would be hard for a farmer to locate an animal if it died. trying to figure out who owned might also be difficult.

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

I completely agree John. Poisoning will always be one of the hardest crimes to prosecute.

However, I would still contend that IF you did something like you outlined above, the law of the land should say that it is illegal. Now, finally, it does.

And with modern optics, night vision, ultra-telescopic lenses, hidden cameras etc, nobody knows when they are on tape or where they are being watched from.

The other exciting part of this legislation is that is means that there is now no legal poison except rat-bait. Every 'Land Poisoned' sign in the country will either be a bluff or an announcement of illegal activity.

And the poisoning of pigeons & crows is criminalised too.

Between this, and getting all the parties to sign up to the Budget process, John Gormley has had an excellent week! Can't believe I just wrote that.

LostCovey

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

Can't believe I just wrote that.

LostCovey

Neither can I;)

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

Jonn Boy, I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards.

MB Lacey

LostCovey wrote: »

Every 'Land Poisoned' sign in the country will either be a bluff

Hey LC, what is the purpose of a farmer putting up a 'poison laid' sign as a bluff? A bluff to who? (I genuinely don't know). A deterrent to poachers?

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Jonn Boy, I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards.

By your post, it seems you'd be happy to lay the blame on someone who couldn't explain something they knew nothing about. That's neither right, fair, nor helpful.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

By your post, it seems you'd be happy to lay the blame on someone who couldn't explain something they knew nothing about. That's neither right, fair, nor helpful.

Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned.

If a person was found dead on my property under suspicious circumstances, that would also make me a suspect!!

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned.

If a person was found dead on my property under suspicious circumstances, that would also make me a suspect!!

I mentioned a farm where?

I said commonage, as in common grazing, as in bogland or hills, with grazing rights held by many people and not just one. Some even held by NPWS.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Height of arrogance, rolley eyes, well jays like lads if it was found on that mans place it's obviously his.

No, it isn't.

Suspecting and proving things are two very different matters to most people.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

I mentioned a farm where?

I said commonage, as in common grazing, as in bogland or hills, with grazing rights held by many people and not just one. Some even held by NPWS.



Height of arrogance, rolley eyes, well jays like lads if it was found on that mans place it's obviously his.

No, it isn't.

Suspecting and proving things are two very different matters to most people.

"Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect"
What's the last word ? I said suspect.

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

LostCovey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

"Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect"
What's the last word ? I said suspect.

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

I do not understand the argument here lads. This law makes the activity a criminal offence. For a conviction it has to be proven beyond doubt in a court of law.

I do not see what basis there is for two people who disapprove of poisoning to squabble over.

A crime committed on commonage is still a crime. If there is forensic proof, it can be prosecuted, if there isn't it can't. A public road is commonly owned too, and hit & run accidents are still successfully prosecuted. To a degree it's a question of will, manpower and resources. And technology above all.

I would confidently predict a successful prosecution under this legislation within a year.

After that, people will be aware of it and some may take a calculated risk to kill crows or foxes or whatever. No law can prevent people breaking the law, just introduce consequences for getting caught.

This is a blindingly stupid thing to do, and people who do blindingly stupid things are usually stupid enough to get caught.

LostCovey

LostCovey

MB Lacey wrote: »

Hey LC, what is the purpose of a farmer putting up a 'poison laid' sign as a bluff? A bluff to who? (I genuinely don't know). A deterrent to poachers?

It's usually a bluff, intended to put the fear of God into dog walkers who might otherwise let their dogs off the lead.

LC

LostCovey

trebor28 wrote: »

in some places around the country where the bigger BOP are there are no borders for land which is essentially owned by the state but local people are allowed to graze their animals on it.

Trebor, I think you have a very loose understanding of Irish land ownership!

LC

trebor28

LostCovey wrote: »

Trebor, I think you have a very loose understanding of Irish land ownership!

LC

and your point is??

maybe im not quite as eloquent as some of the other posters on boards.

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

Feargal, thats a bit harsh - as you know from the hunting forum John has no time for people who engage in this kind of thing and does a good job demonstrating the legal and most wildlife friendly way of dealing with vermin like foxes. His shooting pics paint a thousand words in this regard:)

LostCovey

trebor28 wrote: »

and your point is??

maybe im not quite as eloquent as some of the other posters on boards.

I wasn't questioning your eloquence. I was questioning the idea of state-owned open land that local people are allowed to graze. Are you talking about National Parks?

Most Irish land, at all altitudes is privately owned.

LC

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Feargal, thats a bit harsh - as you know from the hunting forum John has no time for people who engage in this kind of thing and does a good job demonstrating the legal and most wildlife friendly way of dealing with vermin like foxes. His shooting pics paint a thousand words in this regard:)

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

Vegeta

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

You are spouting nonsense

Can you show proof that most sheep farmers use poison?

And link to where John says he doesn't want Raptors in this country?

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning.

Back up that statement with fact please. It is completely untrue. If there were that much poison in the country, and that many people willing to use it freely, there wouldn't be a fox left in the country to shoot.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country.

My oh my. I did say I disagreed with the reintroductions. But, you are cherry picking and again misrepresenting me. I also said, they are here now and they should be left be. With your mindset I can understand how you "forgot" that quote mind.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned,

Predictably ridiculous.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

Am I? How so? Who told you that? I never said such a thing. I'd prefer if you'd link to threads where I've made such statements now instead of making up things like the above.

I know you're not a great man for evidence, but humour me. Your attempt to play to an audience is failing miserably as you can't back up your accusations.

(By the way, I disagree with the government too, but I'm not mailing Brian Cowan anthrax).

Feargal as Luimneach

Vegeta wrote: »

You are spouting nonsense

Can you show proof that most sheep farmers use poison?

And link to where John says he doesn't want Raptors in this country?

I realise that most farmers do not use poison, but unfortunately some do. What I was attempting to say was I wished ALL farmers used shooting as a fox control method (like JohnGalway) instead of poisoning (the minority of farmers that do poison)...........

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Back up that statement with fact please. It is completely untrue. If there were that much poison in the country, and that many people willing to use it freely, there wouldn't be a fox left in the country to shoot.




My oh my. I did say I disagreed with the reintroductions. But, you are cherry picking and again misrepresenting me. I also said, they are here now and they should be left be. With your mindset I can understand how you "forgot" that quote mind.



Predictably ridiculous.



Am I? How so? Who told you that? I never said such a thing. I'd prefer if you'd link to threads where I've made such statements now instead of making up things like the above.

I know you're not a great man for evidence, but humour me. Your attempt to play to an audience is failing miserably as you can't back up your accusations.

(By the way, I disagree with the government too, but I'm not mailing Brian Cowan anthrax).

"Might not know the first thing about it" Johngalway
That sound blasé to me

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

"Might not know the first thing about it" Johngalway
That sound blasé to me

Again, as yet another of your "arguments" stutters in it's death throes you're missing the blindingly obvious in favour of arguing with people.

You would much rather take a pop at me than concede the point that this new law isn't worth a fart in a hurricane. I've already explained how easily it can be worked around. So, what does it achieve exactly? Nothing!

Which was my point all along, if you cared one whit to read my posts.

But no, you'd rather pin the blame of poisoned BOP's on any Tom, Dick, or Harry who happened to own the land without any other proof (there's that word again) that they had a single thing to do with it.

Seriously, it's a wonder you manage to turn on the computer some days.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Again, as yet another of your "arguments" stutters in it's death throes you're missing the blindingly obvious in favour of arguing with people.

You would much rather take a pop at me than concede the point that this new law isn't worth a fart in a hurricane. I've already explained how easily it can be worked around. So, what does it achieve exactly? Nothing!

Which was my point all along, if you cared one whit to read my posts.

But no, you'd rather pin the blame of poisoned BOP's on any Tom, Dick, or Harry who happened to own the land without any other proof (there's that word again) that they had a single thing to do with it.

Seriously, it's a wonder you manage to turn on the computer some days.

Did I say that this new law will stop the poisoning?
No I didn't. "I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards" If the new laws deters even one person and this saves a Raptor, I'd say the law is a success. People have been caught in the UK for Raptor poisoning http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/another-gamekeeper-convicted-of-illegal-poisoning/.

Did I say I wanted to pin the blame on any Tom, Dick or harry? No I didn't. I said "If a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned". Yes the word is suspect

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

To be fair Feargal most sheep farmers don't - its just a handful of ignorant dinosaurs that give Irish farming a bad name. Indeed I have increasing suspicions that a small minority within other cohorts of people outside farming alltogether are behind other incidents of raptor poisoning which I sincerly hope doesn't spiral into the crisis that parts of the UK are now experiencing in relation to serious wildlife crimes that threaten the very existence of the likes of Golden Eagles, Kites etc in places like Scotland:(

PS: My suspicions above are based on the details of 2 cases last year:

1) the poisoning of the pair of peregrines that bred on Arklow rock

2) An incident involving a Red Kite in Co. Down from the NI re-introduction project

IceMaiden

:)Its refreshing to know this new law has come into place, hopefully it will help to reduce instances of illegal poisonings & guilty persons will be prosecuted. In an ideal world such things would not happen & education & training throughout peoples life’s would help to give a true picture of the pros & cons of land/livestock management. & how modern methods can be made to work .
Unfortunately the rural acreages are very difficult to police/monitor particularly in relation to rural crimes being committed, hopefully in Ireland all people from all walks of life will take up some responsibility in reporting any suspicions relating to poisoning .

As was already mentioned it is not an easy crime to police & the field sports community should not only be heard to support this but actually be seen to support the law should any suspicions be aroused.
Surveillance is often the productive method used to secure a conviction, this all takes time & money the results are never much to shout about the perpetrator tends to get a fine perhaps a suspended sentence & if they are associated with any other network unfortunately the bad publicity tends to tar most others with the same brush, time & again snippets are re-hashed to suit various situations.

I would guess per square mile or per acre Ireland has far less professional or part time game keepers than GB possibly less other official bodies to that work or monitor the countryside & the fauna/flora , money is getting ever tighter & jobs ever fewer. Today there’s no room for bad practise or ignorance in keepering & many other organisation rely on much help from volunteers.

[People have been caught in the UK for Raptor poisoning http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wor...gal-poisoning/.
26 year-old Ben Walker, a gamekeeper on the Sufton Estate, Herefordshire, has been convicted of 17 (yes, 17) charges relating to killing protected species with poisonous baits]

From that link can be found much more information including the following-
After a tip off, an undercover team from the RSPB spent several weeks in October and November 2009 making covert surveillance videos of Walker tending to his illegal baits on the Estate. He killed two buzzards and five ravens and told police he did it because they were a ‘threat’ to the birds he was rearing for a commercial shoot.
Walker received a £1,000 fine at Hereford Magistrates Court on 21 April 2010. Well done to the Sufton Estate though, who sacked Walker for these offences.
Full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/8635231.stm
Also to be found is the following -
The RSPB said a team monitored the gamekeeper for five weeks
He was charged under the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act
----
So it was obviously time consuming & at some expense mostly only possible because some observant person actually gave the “TIPP-OFF” the prosecution was under a 1981 act a law that’s approx thirty years old already but it was enough to achieve success.

Also reading the links it was easy to find the following :-

At least 12 re-introduced raptors have been killed by poison in Ireland this year alone, including golden eagles, sea eagles and red kites. Both the Scottish and Norwegian governments, who licence the capture of eagles in their countries for release in Ireland, have expressed grave concern at the poisonings, and failure to tackle the problem
A side-benefit of the new Irish legislation may be in reducing the amount of illegal poison that arrives in Scotland each year, believed to be smuggled in from Ireland where, prior to the new legislation, poison could be bought legally. Clearly it will take some time for all the poison currently in circulation in Ireland to be disposed of, but the long-term view is optimistic.
http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/category/persecution-incidents-in-ireland/

From the SGA [Scottish Game Keepers Association]
Poisoning incidents condemned
16.03.10
A blight on the industry

A total of 27 birds of prey were found poisoned in Scotland in 2009, including 19 buzzards, four red kites and two golden eagles. The previous year had seen a drop in the number of incidents to 16.
The latest information was published by the Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime (PAW) of which the Scottish Gamekeepers Association is a committed member.
SGA Chairman Alex Hogg condemned what he described as "appalling statistics".
He added: "There is no place for raptor persecution in modern land management and the vast majority of gamekeepers and wildlife managers abide by these views. Our organisation does not tolerate it any more than society at large and is committed to doing all it can to stamp it out.
The figures were also condemned by the Scottish Government's Environment Minister Roseanna Cunningham who said the protection of Scotland's wildlife had never before occupied such a prominent position politically or in terms of the law.
Full item-http://www.scottishgamekeepers.co.uk/conte...dents-condemned

Looking at England & Wales it’s a slightly different picture & the home site of the
National Gamekeepers Organisation gives a few truths.
RSPB's Phoney War
15 September 2010
Responding to the publication of the RSPB’s 2010 BirdCrime Report, a spokesman for The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation, which represents the gamekeeping profession in England and Wales, said: “We condemn any wildlife crime, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective. Confirmed cases of bird of prey persecution are rare and the RSPB’s own figures show that only a small proportion of ‘reported incidents’ ever gets confirmed. Most of the UK’s native bird of prey populations are currently at or near record highs. None is classified as endangered
There can be little excuse for breaking the law, but it is important to debunk the myth that there is a war being waged on birds of prey by rural stakeholders such as gamekeepers. The facts show this is simply not so, and the public should be sceptical about the motives of those who hype the issue when a host of other, less photogenic birds are in serious decline”.
The most authoritative source of statistics on wildlife crime is the police National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU). This records much lower figures than the RSPB. Within the context of wildlife crime in general, the incidence of bird of prey persecution is tiny.
He added: “Peer-reviewed science shows gamekeeping to be a force for good. Gamekeepers conserve more key habitat and associated wildlife than all other nature conservation groups combined, covering an area of the UK larger than Wales, including the bulk of upland Sites of Special Scientific Interest. ”
Full item can be is on the national gamekeepers site.



http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/68/
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/395885/Po...constables.html

LostCovey

IceMaiden wrote: »

Looking at England & Wales it’s a slightly different picture & the home site of the
National Gamekeepers Organisation gives a few truths.
RSPB's Phoney War
15 September 2010
Responding to the publication of the RSPB’s 2010 BirdCrime Report, a spokesman for The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation, which represents the gamekeeping profession in England and Wales, said: “We condemn any wildlife crime, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective. Confirmed cases of bird of prey persecution are rare and the RSPB’s own figures show that only a small proportion of ‘reported incidents’ ever gets confirmed. Most of the UK’s native bird of prey populations are currently at or near record highs. None is classified as endangered
There can be little excuse for breaking the law, but it is important to debunk the myth that there is a war being waged on birds of prey by rural stakeholders such as gamekeepers. The facts show this is simply not so, and the public should be sceptical about the motives of those who hype the issue when a host of other, less photogenic birds are in serious decline”.
The most authoritative source of statistics on wildlife crime is the police National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU). This records much lower figures than the RSPB. Within the context of wildlife crime in general, the incidence of bird of prey persecution is tiny.
He added: “Peer-reviewed science shows gamekeeping to be a force for good. Gamekeepers conserve more key habitat and associated wildlife than all other nature conservation groups combined, covering an area of the UK larger than Wales, including the bulk of upland Sites of Special Scientific Interest. ”
Full item can be is on the national gamekeepers site.



http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/68/
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/395885/Po...constables.html

Truths?

Or partisan propaganda?

Apart from gamekeepers and Prince Harry, who else has wiped out Hen Harrier as a breeding species in England?

The relentless persecution of birds of prey by the staff of "sporting estates" is a serious black spot on England's international reputation as a country that values conservation. It will take more than a gamekeeper's union & their website to convince anyone otherwise.

LostCovey

Feargal as Luimneach

LostCovey wrote: »

Truths?

Or partisan propaganda?

Apart from gamekeepers and Prince Harry, who else has wiped out Hen Harrier as a breeding species in England?

The relentless persecution of birds of prey by the staff of "sporting estates" is a serious black spot on England's international reputation as a country that values conservation. It will take more than a gamekeeper's union & their website to convince anyone otherwise.

LostCovey

Propaganda
Many of the large shooting estates in the UK are devoid of Raptors. Prime habitat with no Raptors. All down to raptor persecution:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7071577.stm
The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation says that no Raptors are classified as endangered! What rubbish!The Hen Harrier is nearly extinct in England!

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Propaganda
Many of the large shooting estates in the UK are devoid of Raptors. Prime habitat with no Raptors. All down to raptor persecution:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7071577.stm
The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation says that no Raptors are classified as endangered! What rubbish!The Hen Harrier is nearly extinct in England!

Thankfully the vast majority of hunting/hunters in Ireland has little in common with these elite shooting estates who mainly cater for "hurrah henry""city boy" types that in many cases beleive laws protecting endangered wildlife are just for the little people - indeed some of their activities recall the dark days of landlordism in this country!!

artieanna

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case). A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

It so sickening to see so much funding and effort put into this and the result is dead birds...

It dosent matter who is doing it, its lack of information that is a large part of the cause in my opinion.

Mothman

artieanna wrote: »

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I'm butting in with my thoughts as mod...
How a thread where we are all on the same side can end up with this same side divided, I don't know. I've had reported posts from both sides....of this same side. I've left things alone, because I'm probably damned if I do or damned if I don't.

I believe there are bad eggs in every sectors of society but I believe we need to work with the good eggs to deal with the bad eggs. This can't happen if the good eggs are thrown in with the bad eggs.

Don't marginalise a whole community because of the actions of a few.

Birdnuts

artieanna wrote: »

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case). A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

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Why do you assume this hasn't been done - AFAIK local farmers have been informed of all developments by the project teams every step of the way.

PS: In the 4 years since the first birds have been released, there has been no reported attacks on any livestock, which is no surprise in any case going on the experiece of farmers living with Sea-Eagles in other parts of Europe - notably Norway which has at least 1500 breeding pairs along side a large sheep industry

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Why do you assume this hasn't been done - AFAIK local farmers have been informed of all developments by the project teams every step of the way.

PS: In the 4 years since the first birds have been released, there has been no reported attacks on any livestock, which is no surprise in any case going on the experiece of farmers living with Sea-Eagles in other parts of Europe - notably Norway which has at least 1500 breeding pairs along side a large sheep industry

The Golden Eagle trust liased with farming groups in the release areas (IFA etc) before the re-introductions to explain details of the projects.

LostCovey

artieanna wrote: »

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case).

This has been done

artieanna wrote: »

A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

This is a small charity with limited resources. Even if they had more money would it be best spent on stationery and stamps asking farmers not to put out poison? This shows a very low opinion of Irish farmers which is unwarranted. All the birds have been poisoned by maybe a dozen individuals. I don't think they would read such a letter anyway.

artieanna wrote: »

Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

Again, there has been extensive publicity about the schemes. How much publicity is enough? Remember that if more resources were dedicated to advertising and PR there would be a different outcry about how charitable funds were being squandered.

I agree with you re shouting matches. They get nobody anywhere.

LostCovey

Mothman

I think its worth reminding/mentioning to those that are not aware, that I believe in general the poisoned birds are not the intended target of the poison. It doesn't make the situation any better but it's important to understand the situation to attempt solve it.

E39MSport

Fair enough. But it's also fair to say that by laying poison on open ground the term 'target' applies to every unfortunate wild creature that happens across it. The people that perpetrate this activity surely know this.

cuddlycavies

Yes , E39, it is fair to use that term. And yes they are aware of the consequences of their actions. They are lazy and irreponsible.