Penalties for poisioning birds of prey introduced!

Ricky91t

Yes I know it's definetly not going to end these birds getting poisoned but it's nice to see the government are trying to reduce these poisonings
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1018/environment.html

Pigeon Reaper

It's good news and hopefully it will be enforced.

Birdnuts

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

It's good news and hopefully it will be enforced.

Should have been here before the eagles where brought back but better late then never I suppose:rolleyes: - in any case as you mention it will be all about the enforcement!!

Kess73

I will believe it when I read of actual convictions for it.


There are plenty of other laws in place in Ireland that don't get enforced when broken so I won't be getting excited about this just yet.

E39MSport

Great news and about time too.

Also here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1018/breaking11.html

magicbastarder

Kess73 wrote: »

I will believe it when I read of actual convictions for it.

yep - how are you going to identify the source given the animal could fly several miles from the poisoning site?

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep - how are you going to identify the source given the animal could fly several miles from the poisoning site?

Well in many cases last Spring the birds were found in the near vicinity of a poisoned carcass. Indeed poor old Conal in Sligo was found right next to a poisoned lamb carcass:(

trebor28

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well in many cases last Spring the birds were found in the near vicinity of a poisoned carcass. Indeed poor old Conal in Sligo was found right next to a poisoned lamb carcass:(

but would you be able to prove that whoever owned the lamb, poisoned it?

i doubt it.

Birdnuts

trebor28 wrote: »

but would you be able to prove that whoever owned the lamb, poisoned it?

i doubt it.

Well the landowner would have to explain why he failed to dispose of a fallen animal lawfully, the presence of or lack of ear-tags etc. and the gardai would also have power to search premises depending on the type of substance used. There are also cross-compliance issues in respect of farm payments, which I believe are about to be tightened up further in this area with the ending of the CAP as we know it in 2013. I know in Kerry that landowners in areas with a recent history of this type of criminality come under closer scrutiny from the relevant Departments and have been subjected to increased spot checks/audits etc.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well the landowner

Might not know the first thing about it.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Might not know the first thing about it.

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

Of course RTE have managed to fup up the storey on the news by saying it was the use of poison to kill protected species - when in fact all poison baits have been banned except in the case of rodents:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Might not know the first thing about it.

That is of course a possibility - I'm just setting the scene about how the authorities will go about tackling this scourge and securing convictions:)

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

Of course RTE have managed to fup up the storey on the news by saying it was the use of poison to kill protected species - when in fact all poison baits have been banned except in the case of rodents:rolleyes:

Got a nice big rat in one of my traps this morning, no poison used here

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Got a nice big rat in one of my traps this morning, no poison used here

I think traps make much more sense for rodents in any case - poison often means these vermin die in places that are unreachable by the ordinary Joe Soap leading to bad smells and flies, often in or near ones house:(

trebor28

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well the landowner would have to explain why he failed to dispose of a fallen animal lawfully, the presence of or lack of ear-tags etc. and the gardai would also have power to search premises depending on the type of substance used. There are also cross-compliance issues in respect of farm payments, which I believe are about to be tightened up further in this area with the ending of the CAP as we know it in 2013. I know in Kerry that landowners in areas with a recent history of this type of criminality come under closer scrutiny from the relevant Departments and have been subjected to increased spot checks/audits etc.

in some places around the country where the bigger BOP are there are no borders for land which is essentially owned by the state but local people are allowed to graze their animals on it.

it would be hard for a farmer to locate an animal if it died. trying to figure out who owned might also be difficult.

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

I completely agree John. Poisoning will always be one of the hardest crimes to prosecute.

However, I would still contend that IF you did something like you outlined above, the law of the land should say that it is illegal. Now, finally, it does.

And with modern optics, night vision, ultra-telescopic lenses, hidden cameras etc, nobody knows when they are on tape or where they are being watched from.

The other exciting part of this legislation is that is means that there is now no legal poison except rat-bait. Every 'Land Poisoned' sign in the country will either be a bluff or an announcement of illegal activity.

And the poisoning of pigeons & crows is criminalised too.

Between this, and getting all the parties to sign up to the Budget process, John Gormley has had an excellent week! Can't believe I just wrote that.

LostCovey

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

Can't believe I just wrote that.

LostCovey

Neither can I;)

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Ah Feargal, the font of all knowledge.

Riddle me this then. Thirty seconds after I read this thread I'd figured how to get around it. If I wanted to poison a BOP (I don't) I get myself a meat carcass of some type. I assume I already have a poisonous substance. I lace the carcass with the substance and fling it in a discreet corner of YOUR commonage.

Now lad, explain where that came from to the boys in blue please.

First post I thanked in this thread has it right, it's unenforceable. Merely more regulation with no hope of anything coming of it - with the exception of utter stupidy of someone doing that kind of thing.

Jonn Boy, I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards.

MB Lacey

LostCovey wrote: »

Every 'Land Poisoned' sign in the country will either be a bluff

Hey LC, what is the purpose of a farmer putting up a 'poison laid' sign as a bluff? A bluff to who? (I genuinely don't know). A deterrent to poachers?

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Jonn Boy, I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards.

By your post, it seems you'd be happy to lay the blame on someone who couldn't explain something they knew nothing about. That's neither right, fair, nor helpful.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

By your post, it seems you'd be happy to lay the blame on someone who couldn't explain something they knew nothing about. That's neither right, fair, nor helpful.

Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned.

If a person was found dead on my property under suspicious circumstances, that would also make me a suspect!!

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned.

If a person was found dead on my property under suspicious circumstances, that would also make me a suspect!!

I mentioned a farm where?

I said commonage, as in common grazing, as in bogland or hills, with grazing rights held by many people and not just one. Some even held by NPWS.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

That's usually the first excuse people give:rolleyes:

Height of arrogance, rolley eyes, well jays like lads if it was found on that mans place it's obviously his.

No, it isn't.

Suspecting and proving things are two very different matters to most people.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

I mentioned a farm where?

I said commonage, as in common grazing, as in bogland or hills, with grazing rights held by many people and not just one. Some even held by NPWS.



Height of arrogance, rolley eyes, well jays like lads if it was found on that mans place it's obviously his.

No, it isn't.

Suspecting and proving things are two very different matters to most people.

"Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect"
What's the last word ? I said suspect.

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

LostCovey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

"Well John boy if a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect"
What's the last word ? I said suspect.

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

I do not understand the argument here lads. This law makes the activity a criminal offence. For a conviction it has to be proven beyond doubt in a court of law.

I do not see what basis there is for two people who disapprove of poisoning to squabble over.

A crime committed on commonage is still a crime. If there is forensic proof, it can be prosecuted, if there isn't it can't. A public road is commonly owned too, and hit & run accidents are still successfully prosecuted. To a degree it's a question of will, manpower and resources. And technology above all.

I would confidently predict a successful prosecution under this legislation within a year.

After that, people will be aware of it and some may take a calculated risk to kill crows or foxes or whatever. No law can prevent people breaking the law, just introduce consequences for getting caught.

This is a blindingly stupid thing to do, and people who do blindingly stupid things are usually stupid enough to get caught.

LostCovey

LostCovey

MB Lacey wrote: »

Hey LC, what is the purpose of a farmer putting up a 'poison laid' sign as a bluff? A bluff to who? (I genuinely don't know). A deterrent to poachers?

It's usually a bluff, intended to put the fear of God into dog walkers who might otherwise let their dogs off the lead.

LC

LostCovey

trebor28 wrote: »

in some places around the country where the bigger BOP are there are no borders for land which is essentially owned by the state but local people are allowed to graze their animals on it.

Trebor, I think you have a very loose understanding of Irish land ownership!

LC

trebor28

LostCovey wrote: »

Trebor, I think you have a very loose understanding of Irish land ownership!

LC

and your point is??

maybe im not quite as eloquent as some of the other posters on boards.

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

If somebody was poisoning livestock instead of Raptors, I believe you would be taking a different view of it......

Feargal, thats a bit harsh - as you know from the hunting forum John has no time for people who engage in this kind of thing and does a good job demonstrating the legal and most wildlife friendly way of dealing with vermin like foxes. His shooting pics paint a thousand words in this regard:)

LostCovey

trebor28 wrote: »

and your point is??

maybe im not quite as eloquent as some of the other posters on boards.

I wasn't questioning your eloquence. I was questioning the idea of state-owned open land that local people are allowed to graze. Are you talking about National Parks?

Most Irish land, at all altitudes is privately owned.

LC