Penalties for poisioning birds of prey introduced!

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Feargal, thats a bit harsh - as you know from the hunting forum John has no time for people who engage in this kind of thing and does a good job demonstrating the legal and most wildlife friendly way of dealing with vermin like foxes. His shooting pics paint a thousand words in this regard:)

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

Vegeta

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

You are spouting nonsense

Can you show proof that most sheep farmers use poison?

And link to where John says he doesn't want Raptors in this country?

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning.

Back up that statement with fact please. It is completely untrue. If there were that much poison in the country, and that many people willing to use it freely, there wouldn't be a fox left in the country to shoot.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country.

My oh my. I did say I disagreed with the reintroductions. But, you are cherry picking and again misrepresenting me. I also said, they are here now and they should be left be. With your mindset I can understand how you "forgot" that quote mind.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned,

Predictably ridiculous.

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

Am I? How so? Who told you that? I never said such a thing. I'd prefer if you'd link to threads where I've made such statements now instead of making up things like the above.

I know you're not a great man for evidence, but humour me. Your attempt to play to an audience is failing miserably as you can't back up your accusations.

(By the way, I disagree with the government too, but I'm not mailing Brian Cowan anthrax).

Feargal as Luimneach

Vegeta wrote: »

You are spouting nonsense

Can you show proof that most sheep farmers use poison?

And link to where John says he doesn't want Raptors in this country?

I realise that most farmers do not use poison, but unfortunately some do. What I was attempting to say was I wished ALL farmers used shooting as a fox control method (like JohnGalway) instead of poisoning (the minority of farmers that do poison)...........

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Back up that statement with fact please. It is completely untrue. If there were that much poison in the country, and that many people willing to use it freely, there wouldn't be a fox left in the country to shoot.




My oh my. I did say I disagreed with the reintroductions. But, you are cherry picking and again misrepresenting me. I also said, they are here now and they should be left be. With your mindset I can understand how you "forgot" that quote mind.



Predictably ridiculous.



Am I? How so? Who told you that? I never said such a thing. I'd prefer if you'd link to threads where I've made such statements now instead of making up things like the above.

I know you're not a great man for evidence, but humour me. Your attempt to play to an audience is failing miserably as you can't back up your accusations.

(By the way, I disagree with the government too, but I'm not mailing Brian Cowan anthrax).

"Might not know the first thing about it" Johngalway
That sound blasé to me

johngalway

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

"Might not know the first thing about it" Johngalway
That sound blasé to me

Again, as yet another of your "arguments" stutters in it's death throes you're missing the blindingly obvious in favour of arguing with people.

You would much rather take a pop at me than concede the point that this new law isn't worth a fart in a hurricane. I've already explained how easily it can be worked around. So, what does it achieve exactly? Nothing!

Which was my point all along, if you cared one whit to read my posts.

But no, you'd rather pin the blame of poisoned BOP's on any Tom, Dick, or Harry who happened to own the land without any other proof (there's that word again) that they had a single thing to do with it.

Seriously, it's a wonder you manage to turn on the computer some days.

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

Again, as yet another of your "arguments" stutters in it's death throes you're missing the blindingly obvious in favour of arguing with people.

You would much rather take a pop at me than concede the point that this new law isn't worth a fart in a hurricane. I've already explained how easily it can be worked around. So, what does it achieve exactly? Nothing!

Which was my point all along, if you cared one whit to read my posts.

But no, you'd rather pin the blame of poisoned BOP's on any Tom, Dick, or Harry who happened to own the land without any other proof (there's that word again) that they had a single thing to do with it.

Seriously, it's a wonder you manage to turn on the computer some days.

Did I say that this new law will stop the poisoning?
No I didn't. "I never said it would be easy to catch these subhuman b*stards" If the new laws deters even one person and this saves a Raptor, I'd say the law is a success. People have been caught in the UK for Raptor poisoning http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/another-gamekeeper-convicted-of-illegal-poisoning/.

Did I say I wanted to pin the blame on any Tom, Dick or harry? No I didn't. I said "If a dead raptor along with poisoned bait is found on your farm. I'd say that would make you a suspect, especially if the toxicology results show that the bird was poisoned". Yes the word is suspect

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I agree the best way to control numbers of foxes is by shooting them and I wish most sheep farmers did it this was instead of poisoning. However he also said he disagreed with the Raptor re-introductions. He doesn't want the raptors in this country. The point I was making that he would be up in arms if somebody's livestock was poisoned, but he is blasé about Raptor killings!

To be fair Feargal most sheep farmers don't - its just a handful of ignorant dinosaurs that give Irish farming a bad name. Indeed I have increasing suspicions that a small minority within other cohorts of people outside farming alltogether are behind other incidents of raptor poisoning which I sincerly hope doesn't spiral into the crisis that parts of the UK are now experiencing in relation to serious wildlife crimes that threaten the very existence of the likes of Golden Eagles, Kites etc in places like Scotland:(

PS: My suspicions above are based on the details of 2 cases last year:

1) the poisoning of the pair of peregrines that bred on Arklow rock

2) An incident involving a Red Kite in Co. Down from the NI re-introduction project

IceMaiden

:)Its refreshing to know this new law has come into place, hopefully it will help to reduce instances of illegal poisonings & guilty persons will be prosecuted. In an ideal world such things would not happen & education & training throughout peoples life’s would help to give a true picture of the pros & cons of land/livestock management. & how modern methods can be made to work .
Unfortunately the rural acreages are very difficult to police/monitor particularly in relation to rural crimes being committed, hopefully in Ireland all people from all walks of life will take up some responsibility in reporting any suspicions relating to poisoning .

As was already mentioned it is not an easy crime to police & the field sports community should not only be heard to support this but actually be seen to support the law should any suspicions be aroused.
Surveillance is often the productive method used to secure a conviction, this all takes time & money the results are never much to shout about the perpetrator tends to get a fine perhaps a suspended sentence & if they are associated with any other network unfortunately the bad publicity tends to tar most others with the same brush, time & again snippets are re-hashed to suit various situations.

I would guess per square mile or per acre Ireland has far less professional or part time game keepers than GB possibly less other official bodies to that work or monitor the countryside & the fauna/flora , money is getting ever tighter & jobs ever fewer. Today there’s no room for bad practise or ignorance in keepering & many other organisation rely on much help from volunteers.

[People have been caught in the UK for Raptor poisoning http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wor...gal-poisoning/.
26 year-old Ben Walker, a gamekeeper on the Sufton Estate, Herefordshire, has been convicted of 17 (yes, 17) charges relating to killing protected species with poisonous baits]

From that link can be found much more information including the following-
After a tip off, an undercover team from the RSPB spent several weeks in October and November 2009 making covert surveillance videos of Walker tending to his illegal baits on the Estate. He killed two buzzards and five ravens and told police he did it because they were a ‘threat’ to the birds he was rearing for a commercial shoot.
Walker received a £1,000 fine at Hereford Magistrates Court on 21 April 2010. Well done to the Sufton Estate though, who sacked Walker for these offences.
Full story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/8635231.stm
Also to be found is the following -
The RSPB said a team monitored the gamekeeper for five weeks
He was charged under the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act
----
So it was obviously time consuming & at some expense mostly only possible because some observant person actually gave the “TIPP-OFF” the prosecution was under a 1981 act a law that’s approx thirty years old already but it was enough to achieve success.

Also reading the links it was easy to find the following :-

At least 12 re-introduced raptors have been killed by poison in Ireland this year alone, including golden eagles, sea eagles and red kites. Both the Scottish and Norwegian governments, who licence the capture of eagles in their countries for release in Ireland, have expressed grave concern at the poisonings, and failure to tackle the problem
A side-benefit of the new Irish legislation may be in reducing the amount of illegal poison that arrives in Scotland each year, believed to be smuggled in from Ireland where, prior to the new legislation, poison could be bought legally. Clearly it will take some time for all the poison currently in circulation in Ireland to be disposed of, but the long-term view is optimistic.
http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/category/persecution-incidents-in-ireland/

From the SGA [Scottish Game Keepers Association]
Poisoning incidents condemned
16.03.10
A blight on the industry

A total of 27 birds of prey were found poisoned in Scotland in 2009, including 19 buzzards, four red kites and two golden eagles. The previous year had seen a drop in the number of incidents to 16.
The latest information was published by the Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime (PAW) of which the Scottish Gamekeepers Association is a committed member.
SGA Chairman Alex Hogg condemned what he described as "appalling statistics".
He added: "There is no place for raptor persecution in modern land management and the vast majority of gamekeepers and wildlife managers abide by these views. Our organisation does not tolerate it any more than society at large and is committed to doing all it can to stamp it out.
The figures were also condemned by the Scottish Government's Environment Minister Roseanna Cunningham who said the protection of Scotland's wildlife had never before occupied such a prominent position politically or in terms of the law.
Full item-http://www.scottishgamekeepers.co.uk/conte...dents-condemned

Looking at England & Wales it’s a slightly different picture & the home site of the
National Gamekeepers Organisation gives a few truths.
RSPB's Phoney War
15 September 2010
Responding to the publication of the RSPB’s 2010 BirdCrime Report, a spokesman for The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation, which represents the gamekeeping profession in England and Wales, said: “We condemn any wildlife crime, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective. Confirmed cases of bird of prey persecution are rare and the RSPB’s own figures show that only a small proportion of ‘reported incidents’ ever gets confirmed. Most of the UK’s native bird of prey populations are currently at or near record highs. None is classified as endangered
There can be little excuse for breaking the law, but it is important to debunk the myth that there is a war being waged on birds of prey by rural stakeholders such as gamekeepers. The facts show this is simply not so, and the public should be sceptical about the motives of those who hype the issue when a host of other, less photogenic birds are in serious decline”.
The most authoritative source of statistics on wildlife crime is the police National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU). This records much lower figures than the RSPB. Within the context of wildlife crime in general, the incidence of bird of prey persecution is tiny.
He added: “Peer-reviewed science shows gamekeeping to be a force for good. Gamekeepers conserve more key habitat and associated wildlife than all other nature conservation groups combined, covering an area of the UK larger than Wales, including the bulk of upland Sites of Special Scientific Interest. ”
Full item can be is on the national gamekeepers site.



http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/68/
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/395885/Po...constables.html

LostCovey

IceMaiden wrote: »

Looking at England & Wales it’s a slightly different picture & the home site of the
National Gamekeepers Organisation gives a few truths.
RSPB's Phoney War
15 September 2010
Responding to the publication of the RSPB’s 2010 BirdCrime Report, a spokesman for The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation, which represents the gamekeeping profession in England and Wales, said: “We condemn any wildlife crime, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective. Confirmed cases of bird of prey persecution are rare and the RSPB’s own figures show that only a small proportion of ‘reported incidents’ ever gets confirmed. Most of the UK’s native bird of prey populations are currently at or near record highs. None is classified as endangered
There can be little excuse for breaking the law, but it is important to debunk the myth that there is a war being waged on birds of prey by rural stakeholders such as gamekeepers. The facts show this is simply not so, and the public should be sceptical about the motives of those who hype the issue when a host of other, less photogenic birds are in serious decline”.
The most authoritative source of statistics on wildlife crime is the police National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU). This records much lower figures than the RSPB. Within the context of wildlife crime in general, the incidence of bird of prey persecution is tiny.
He added: “Peer-reviewed science shows gamekeeping to be a force for good. Gamekeepers conserve more key habitat and associated wildlife than all other nature conservation groups combined, covering an area of the UK larger than Wales, including the bulk of upland Sites of Special Scientific Interest. ”
Full item can be is on the national gamekeepers site.



http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/68/
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/395885/Po...constables.html

Truths?

Or partisan propaganda?

Apart from gamekeepers and Prince Harry, who else has wiped out Hen Harrier as a breeding species in England?

The relentless persecution of birds of prey by the staff of "sporting estates" is a serious black spot on England's international reputation as a country that values conservation. It will take more than a gamekeeper's union & their website to convince anyone otherwise.

LostCovey

Feargal as Luimneach

LostCovey wrote: »

Truths?

Or partisan propaganda?

Apart from gamekeepers and Prince Harry, who else has wiped out Hen Harrier as a breeding species in England?

The relentless persecution of birds of prey by the staff of "sporting estates" is a serious black spot on England's international reputation as a country that values conservation. It will take more than a gamekeeper's union & their website to convince anyone otherwise.

LostCovey

Propaganda
Many of the large shooting estates in the UK are devoid of Raptors. Prime habitat with no Raptors. All down to raptor persecution:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7071577.stm
The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation says that no Raptors are classified as endangered! What rubbish!The Hen Harrier is nearly extinct in England!

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Propaganda
Many of the large shooting estates in the UK are devoid of Raptors. Prime habitat with no Raptors. All down to raptor persecution:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7071577.stm
The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation says that no Raptors are classified as endangered! What rubbish!The Hen Harrier is nearly extinct in England!

Thankfully the vast majority of hunting/hunters in Ireland has little in common with these elite shooting estates who mainly cater for "hurrah henry""city boy" types that in many cases beleive laws protecting endangered wildlife are just for the little people - indeed some of their activities recall the dark days of landlordism in this country!!

artieanna

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case). A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

It so sickening to see so much funding and effort put into this and the result is dead birds...

It dosent matter who is doing it, its lack of information that is a large part of the cause in my opinion.

Mothman

artieanna wrote: »

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I'm butting in with my thoughts as mod...
How a thread where we are all on the same side can end up with this same side divided, I don't know. I've had reported posts from both sides....of this same side. I've left things alone, because I'm probably damned if I do or damned if I don't.

I believe there are bad eggs in every sectors of society but I believe we need to work with the good eggs to deal with the bad eggs. This can't happen if the good eggs are thrown in with the bad eggs.

Don't marginalise a whole community because of the actions of a few.

Birdnuts

artieanna wrote: »

As usual this discussion turns into a blame game, I rarely take part in these threads as its just a shouting match...:mad:

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case). A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

.

Why do you assume this hasn't been done - AFAIK local farmers have been informed of all developments by the project teams every step of the way.

PS: In the 4 years since the first birds have been released, there has been no reported attacks on any livestock, which is no surprise in any case going on the experiece of farmers living with Sea-Eagles in other parts of Europe - notably Norway which has at least 1500 breeding pairs along side a large sheep industry

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Why do you assume this hasn't been done - AFAIK local farmers have been informed of all developments by the project teams every step of the way.

PS: In the 4 years since the first birds have been released, there has been no reported attacks on any livestock, which is no surprise in any case going on the experiece of farmers living with Sea-Eagles in other parts of Europe - notably Norway which has at least 1500 breeding pairs along side a large sheep industry

The Golden Eagle trust liased with farming groups in the release areas (IFA etc) before the re-introductions to explain details of the projects.

LostCovey

artieanna wrote: »

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case).

This has been done

artieanna wrote: »

A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

This is a small charity with limited resources. Even if they had more money would it be best spent on stationery and stamps asking farmers not to put out poison? This shows a very low opinion of Irish farmers which is unwarranted. All the birds have been poisoned by maybe a dozen individuals. I don't think they would read such a letter anyway.

artieanna wrote: »

Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.

Again, there has been extensive publicity about the schemes. How much publicity is enough? Remember that if more resources were dedicated to advertising and PR there would be a different outcry about how charitable funds were being squandered.

I agree with you re shouting matches. They get nobody anywhere.

LostCovey

Mothman

I think its worth reminding/mentioning to those that are not aware, that I believe in general the poisoned birds are not the intended target of the poison. It doesn't make the situation any better but it's important to understand the situation to attempt solve it.

E39MSport

Fair enough. But it's also fair to say that by laying poison on open ground the term 'target' applies to every unfortunate wild creature that happens across it. The people that perpetrate this activity surely know this.

cuddlycavies

Yes , E39, it is fair to use that term. And yes they are aware of the consequences of their actions. They are lazy and irreponsible.

Birdnuts

E39MSport wrote: »

Fair enough. But it's also fair to say that by laying poison on open ground the term 'target' applies to every unfortunate wild creature that happens across it. The people that perpetrate this activity surely know this.

Of course they do and are the type of people the world could do without - in any case there now totally outside the law so at least that excuse can no longer be used

jkforde

artieanna wrote: »

I can't understand why the people who are running the bird of prey releases and the dept of agriculture can't come together and inform farmers with the details of these birds stating that there is little or no risk to their animals (if this is the case). A leaflet or letter sent to farmers in the surrounding counties of the release would be helpful in saving the birds. Even having a piece put in regional papers informing people about these birds may help to stop posionings.
It so sickening to see so much funding and effort put into this and the result is dead birds...
It dosent matter who is doing it, its lack of information that is a large part of the cause in my opinion

before you assume anything, ask the people active in the three projects here: http://www.goldeneagle.ie/portal.php?z=40 (and a donation of 20euro will make you a Friend of the GET.. http://www.goldeneagle.ie/?z=254)

The IFA has been consulted and actively involved at all stages but individual irrational people can not be convinced to alter a lifetime of habit by rational argument. The only solution to save the projects at this stage are national legal sanctions targeted at local level.

IceMaiden

It was a little disappointing to notice the way class, nationality & peoples locality [urban v rural] were used in the replies, Going back I do basically believe the NGO/SGA simply put they are under very close scrutiny much of the time & hit the spotlight often for the wrong reasons. [A stupid individuals conduct] not to mention they admit to members wrong doings & publish the facts openly. & apologise for any harm that’s been done. Not forgetting the totally independent figures given via the National Wildlife Crime Unit. Giving far lower reduced numbers than RSPB with no political agenda & nothing to gain from so doing.
The work of these organisations has been mostly to the benefit of much UK wildlife & environment , further to that is the simple fact that any keepers etc who are found committing crimes loose the job & thankfully via the NGO/SGA network these people are prevented from following the occupation any further. The Union of Country Sports Workers [not NGO/SGA] The UCSW has around 5,000 members based all over the UK and in Europe and America.
This very fortunately helps to provide a helpful service to a wide range of rural based occupations .[Nine times as much of the British countryside is looked after by gamekeepers as is in nature reserves and National Parks]
[National Gamekeepers' Organisation Charitable Trust]

Because a person may have substantial amounts of finance or land doesn’t actually mean they are not reasonable people, some have worked for this, whilst others may have inherited the good fortune, either way field sports, nature conservation & charities in the UK have & do benefit from these people
The fact that any person has or does live/work in a city should not be a reason to condemn them for entering the rural areas no matter if its for sport or relaxation. Further to this I think that in Ireland we are now approximately on our third generation of land, nature or game laws management under no obligations to any other nations apart from what the EU stipulates & if this nation has not been up to speed implementing environment/conservation directives then the modern era fault lays more within .

The hen harrier in the UK is suffering in most of England ,to that I am inclined to agree , however its not totally been lost & is hopefully going to prosper in the much longer term thanks to projects that have been long term run by land owners of sporting estates in conjunction with the game conservancy trust totally self financed . Interestingly even the RSPB have large acres of land including areas of Mooreland that is also lacking in harrier numbers or breeding success. The basic results by the Game Conservancy Trust show a way forward to raise game on moor lands that the harrier can thrive at the same time the RSPB have conceded it is the best way forwards for the hen harriers whilst sporting estates can simultaneously show good numbers of grouse & operate as a successful part of a rural community. With luck as this gets implemented & the returns are seen to be all that the organisations had hoped for the same practise & results will be rolled out across the few Mooreland estates of England thereby giving the hen harrier an unprecedented chance to thrive .Unfortunately was the situation on Geltdale in , Northumberland where the harrier reserve suffered badly due to the actions of the reported eagle owls , the results from defra indicate that appropriate action should be taken to protect the harriers from such birds in future. If all these projects & groups keep monitoring & applying the new practices then the corner has hopefully been turned for the Harrier.

Back to the specific topic, I would guess if much of the poisoning has been carried out by people who as mentioned are very set in there ways with habits of a life time it comes as little surprise, as mentioned on the harrier thread similar selfish attitudes have been noticed in relation to this species & any planned developments by a minority of landowners, sadly back in the late spring I listened to a radio phone-in regarding the burning of gorse etc , they had a official representative in the studio & a person on a direct line both basically trying to provide help/advice relating to the law & reasons why the burning season/restrictions have been implemented, unfortunately a minority of callers where of the same type of attitude & not wanting to agree or comply with the more modern methods. If these incidents are a sample of a few its not surprising that some are still not listening or conforming to the theories perhaps the new legislation will make any of these type think much more deeply before deciding to carry out any more poisoning.

Feargal as Luimneach

IceMaiden wrote: »

It was a little disappointing to notice the way class, nationality & peoples locality [urban v rural] were used in the replies, Going back I do basically believe the NGO/SGA simply put they are under very close scrutiny much of the time & hit the spotlight often for the wrong reasons. [A stupid individuals conduct] not to mention they admit to members wrong doings & publish the facts openly. & apologise for any harm that’s been done. Not forgetting the totally independent figures given via the National Wildlife Crime Unit. Giving far lower reduced numbers than RSPB with no political agenda & nothing to gain from so doing.
The work of these organisations has been mostly to the benefit of much UK wildlife & environment , further to that is the simple fact that any keepers etc who are found committing crimes loose the job & thankfully via the NGO/SGA network these people are prevented from following the occupation any further. The Union of Country Sports Workers [not NGO/SGA] The UCSW has around 5,000 members based all over the UK and in Europe and America.
This very fortunately helps to provide a helpful service to a wide range of rural based occupations .[Nine times as much of the British countryside is looked after by gamekeepers as is in nature reserves and National Parks]
[National Gamekeepers' Organisation Charitable Trust]

Because a person may have substantial amounts of finance or land doesn’t actually mean they are not reasonable people, some have worked for this, whilst others may have inherited the good fortune, either way field sports, nature conservation & charities in the UK have & do benefit from these people
The fact that any person has or does live/work in a city should not be a reason to condemn them for entering the rural areas no matter if its for sport or relaxation. Further to this I think that in Ireland we are now approximately on our third generation of land, nature or game laws management under no obligations to any other nations apart from what the EU stipulates & if this nation has not been up to speed implementing environment/conservation directives then the modern era fault lays more within .

The hen harrier in the UK is suffering in most of England ,to that I am inclined to agree , however its not totally been lost & is hopefully going to prosper in the much longer term thanks to projects that have been long term run by land owners of sporting estates in conjunction with the game conservancy trust totally self financed . Interestingly even the RSPB have large acres of land including areas of Mooreland that is also lacking in harrier numbers or breeding success. The basic results by the Game Conservancy Trust show a way forward to raise game on moor lands that the harrier can thrive at the same time the RSPB have conceded it is the best way forwards for the hen harriers whilst sporting estates can simultaneously show good numbers of grouse & operate as a successful part of a rural community. With luck as this gets implemented & the returns are seen to be all that the organisations had hoped for the same practise & results will be rolled out across the few Mooreland estates of England thereby giving the hen harrier an unprecedented chance to thrive .Unfortunately was the situation on Geltdale in , Northumberland where the harrier reserve suffered badly due to the actions of the reported eagle owls , the results from defra indicate that appropriate action should be taken to protect the harriers from such birds in future. If all these projects & groups keep monitoring & applying the new practices then the corner has hopefully been turned for the Harrier.

Back to the specific topic, I would guess if much of the poisoning has been carried out by people who as mentioned are very set in there ways with habits of a life time it comes as little surprise, as mentioned on the harrier thread similar selfish attitudes have been noticed in relation to this species & any planned developments by a minority of landowners, sadly back in the late spring I listened to a radio phone-in regarding the burning of gorse etc , they had a official representative in the studio & a person on a direct line both basically trying to provide help/advice relating to the law & reasons why the burning season/restrictions have been implemented, unfortunately a minority of callers where of the same type of attitude & not wanting to agree or comply with the more modern methods. If these incidents are a sample of a few its not surprising that some are still not listening or conforming to the theories perhaps the new legislation will make any of these type think much more deeply before deciding to carry out any more poisoning.

It is the Gamekeepers (poisoning/shooting) that are out competing the Hen Harrier in Northumberland and in all other regions of England’s uplands not the Eagle Owl. If Hen Harrier were at normal numbers in England 200-300 pairs then a few Hen Harrier being predated upon by Eagle Owl wouldn't even make the news. It is not known for sure if Eagle owl were once native to the UK or not. Hen Harrier and Eagle owl co-exist quite well on mainland Europe.

purple_hatstand

I hate to be pessimistic but the introduction of new legislation will likely do very little to change attitudes and practices among those who leave poisoned carcasses out as bait for predators.

I wonder how much (if any) political will there might be to make resources available for the investigation of specific cases and bringing prosecutions?

recedite

Maybe a hefty fine or a spell in jail would help to change their attitudes. There is a huge difference between carrying on anti social activity within the law, and doing it outside the law.

In my own area I can tell you there are some people who have been doing it the last few years, who won't be getting away with it next year.

sables2

recedite wrote: »

Maybe a hefty fine or a spell in jail would help to change their attitudes. There is a huge difference between carrying on anti social activity within the law, and doing it outside the law.

In my own area I can tell you there are some people who have been doing it the last few years, who won't be getting away with it next year.

Hi recedite,
Nice to here that: - the 'people' in your area who won't be doing IT! I wish the penny would drop with these gombeen's. I really believe the farmer's ARE sorely responsible at the end of the day for the future of our raptors. They are our threat and our possible saviours, if they unite. If only life was so simple.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

Maybe a hefty fine or a spell in jail would help to change their attitudes.

i would like to think that the law will be enforced, but i am sceptical about a country guard responding to a complaint if one was received. it's a very tough law to enforce, especially in terms of changing attitudes.

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would like to think that the law will be enforced, but i am sceptical about a country guard responding to a complaint if one was received. it's a very tough law to enforce, especially in terms of changing attitudes.

Photos of carcasses etc. well help given that its now both illegal to lay poison and have unburied dead livestock on ones land.

magicbastarder

Birdnuts wrote: »

Photos of carcasses etc. well help given that its now both illegal to lay poison and have unburied dead livestock on ones land.

who's going to take the photos though? you're still facing the issue that the people who want this law enforced are probably in the minority in these areas.

it's a pity in a sense about the dead livestock law, i understand that a relaxation of a similar law in the netherlands has seen a positive impact on scavenging raptor species.