National Student March 3rd November + General Fees related discussions

LeixlipRed

The USI are in negotiations with the government over the coming cuts and these are the figures that they have been led to believe will be implemented in the budget. The government are unlikely to officially announce them as fact until December 7th. And no one can prove they're true in the mean time. It's extrememely unlikely that the cuts won't be severe though. But if you're waiting around for cold, hard facts I assume you'll be sitting at home on November 3rd?

LeixlipRed

FYR wrote: »

Join my group http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=134348353284624&index=1

I'll be helping out with the FEE group. We'll be in the Arts Block from Monday, come and chat to us. Vital we get all students mobilised, no matter the means.

Liber8or

LeixlipRed wrote: »

The USI are in negotiations with the government over the coming cuts and these are the figures that they have been led to believe will be implemented in the budget. The government are unlikely to officially announce them as fact until December 7th. And no one can prove they're true in the mean time. It's extrememely unlikely that the cuts won't be severe though. But if you're waiting around for cold, hard facts I assume you'll be sitting at home on November 3rd?

I have highlighted the reasons for declaring this march a pre-emptive, ill-founded cause for protest. I can appreciate and I support all students who choose to voice their concerns over their future education, but reacting to something which has not happened yet makes no sense. Throwing figures like €3000 euro around is pure scaremongering and 'sexing up' nothing but rumours and conjecture.

If we start marching for things that have not happened yet, it undermines the value of a march when it is actually needed.

LeixlipRed

Just in case you think I came up with those figures, they're from the USI. Not that that means they're true but they have been privy to this information through their bargaining with the government.

Anyway, to get to your point of marching post budget. Look at it this way, after the budget is declared that's it, it's done. If we march before then maybe, just maybe they'll realise what sort of popular support the movement has and back down, find an alternative or whatever. They're unlikely to do that after the figure have been finalised. It's clear that agitation is needed before and, like you said, after the fact.

Liber8or

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Just in case you think I came up with those figures, they're from the USI. Not that that means they're true but they have been privy to this information through their bargaining with the government.

Anyway, to get to your point of marching post budget. Look at it this way, after the budget is declared that's it, it's done. If we march before then maybe, just maybe they'll realise what sort of popular support the movement has and back down, find an alternative or whatever. They're unlikely to do that after the figure have been finalised. It's clear that agitation is needed before and, like you said, after the fact.

I did not say you came up with figure, I am fully aware that the USI did. I just wanted to know where they got their information from. Thanks for answering the question though because ever since this march was announced nobody was asking about where or how this information was formed.

LeixlipRed

I don't believe the figures are exact either but they do come from within the USI, that I know for sure. The USI isn't exactly full of radical elements either so I just can't see them exagerating them for effect. That's just my own honest opinion.

Liber8or

LeixlipRed wrote: »

The USI isn't exactly full of radical elements either

The Government want to charge us a €3000 reg fee in Sept!! The Government want to cut the grant by 10%!! THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE TOLD NO!!! STAND UP AND BE COUNTED! HELP MAKE MAYNOOTH STUDENTS UNION HISTORY! JOIN THE PROTEST! I FOR ONE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF BEING STEPPED ON WHILE THEY CHUCK EUR50 BILLION AT SH1TEHAWK BANKERS! IF YOU WANT TO LIE DOWN AND GET TRODDEN ON THEN F*CK OFF TO BELFIELD I.T. AND LET YOUR DADDY PAY THE THREE GRAND! I'M NOT GOING TO REST UNTIL I SEE 40 BUS LOADS OF SCREAMING, PI$$ED OFF MAYNOOTHIANS DRIVING DOWN THE QUAYS! WHO'S F*CKING WITH ME?!?!?

You sure about that?

FYR

Liber8or wrote: »

You sure about that?

For the record I am a member of no radical elements but my election campaign didn't earn me the moniker of the "Lanky Lunatic" for nothing :P

LeixlipRed

Remember when I say radical I mean politically radical, not some rioting anarchist womble or something

Liber8or

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Remember when I say radical I mean politically radical, not some rioting anarchist womble or something

For the record I am a member of no radical elements but my election campaign didn't earn me the moniker of the "Lanky Lunatic" for nothing

More power to you both!

LeixlipRed

I don't even know this lad I admire his enthusiasm though, reminds me of a young Rob

Lord TSC

@LeixlipRed

"Maybe" doesn't change the fact that the post came accross a tad arrogant. I say "came accross" because I know that posts on the internet can come accross different than how they were intended. But your post seemed to imply a "This is my way, ergo it's the only way" mentality. As for alternative, I don't have any solid one but then I'm not a politician here. Nor am I an economist. I'm just a normal person. But just because I can't come up with a viable long term solution does not mean I can't see flaws with your ideas.

Take the "Tax people over 100k at 70%" point. That may sound great in theory, but it would fall apart in practice. People would become less inclined to get into the higher paying jobs since they could end up making the same or more money at far less stressful jobs. Those that would finish college with qualifications to get those jobs would likely just move out of the country to somewhere that their skill set will earn them money at a higher level without being punished. So what you end up with are the top professionals in the country just deciding it's not worth living here any more and buggering off.
You idea punishes those who got us into the mess, yes, but it also punishes and cripples far more people who did not; people who worked hard to get into the positions they did and are now being attacked despite that fact. Instead, the responisibilites need to be spread over everyone so that we can all work to rebuild the country.

Yes, it's unfair that sacrifices have to be made by the "poor". Yes, it's unfair that mistakes were made by people in power. But that doesn't mean we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope that the country can be fixed without everyone making sacrifices. We need to work to pull the country out of this mess because its a mess which hits everyone. It's easy to post on a board and bitch and moan about it, throwing the blame on everyone but refusing to accept responsibility. But that won't help the situation.

I agree those in fault should be punished but the time to complain about who is running the country has long since passed. The signs of all this were pretty clear a long time ago but we as a country have completly forgotten how to do anything about the injustices. In that way, I respect FYR's current stance of trying to encourage people to actually DO something rather than coming up with these fantastical methods of fixing the country which will never be implimented (even if I think FYR needs to lay off the swearing and caps lock; it's really not making your arguement any clearer and we can read perfectly well in normal text, thanks). I respect the French and the Greeks cause they are doing something by going out and protesting about their governments. And I respect the Iclandics (sp?) who are putting their corrupt politicians on trial for the mess. We, as Irish, will go on the odd march sure, but the sad fact is we'll probably vote in these people again and let them away with the injustices.

At the same time, with all that said, I'd be arguing for a lot of the cuts regardless of the economic climate, and I think the way the country is, we desperatly need to cut money in a lot of areas, not just one. I've already outlined my views on grants and why they should be cut. In terms of fees, I think people who say "this will stop certain people going to college" are being innocent as well. I think that there is a vast majority of poor people who will never go to college, be the fees what they are now or doubled. I think that the people who want to go now will still find a way to go if fees are increased. I think the ones who will really be affected are those who choose courses simply because it's so easy to go at the moment but then either spend most of their time partying or simply drop out quickly. A rise in fees will decrease numbers but it's always been my opinion that the decrease will not come in those who are "poor" but those who are forced to actually think about the consequences of going to college and choosing if they really want to invest their own money into the education rather than risking wasting the governments.

I also think benifits need to be examined; I live in Drogheda, and it's always annoyed me how there are some people who have kids young and choose to live on benifits and in a council house not because they can't find a job but because they don't want to; because they are choosing a lifestyle where they never have to work and are quite happy to sponge. I think the system needs to be reworked to cover those who are genuine in their job hunt but are finding it hard because of the country we live in, and at the same time punish those who have kids to get money and who have no intention of ever working. I think overseas aid should be slashed dramatically; the fact we are worrying at all about other countries when we are in the toilet really boggles me.

There is a lot of unnessecary spending on the government's part when it comes to the lower classes which could be cut. I guess that's my point. It's not nessecarily that the lower classes should be punished. I just think we need to examine closer the way in which money is thrown around at the various social levels and work out what is nessecary and what is luxury, and use the luxury to pay off our debts.

I could keep ranting but I have a feeling that Leix and some others may be sitting at their computers, shaking their heads and getting ready to rant back so I'll stop for now :P

(God, I love a good debate like this )

LeixlipRed

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

@LeixlipRed

"Maybe" doesn't change the fact that the post came accross a tad arrogant. I say "came accross" because I know that posts on the internet can come accross different than how they were intended. But your post seemed to imply a "This is my way, ergo it's the only way" mentality. As for alternative, I don't have any solid one but then I'm not a politician here. Nor am I an economist. I'm just a normal person. But just because I can't come up with a viable long term solution does not mean I can't see flaws with your ideas.

That's not how I meant it to come across at all. I believe in free will, everyone is entitled to an opinion and entitled to express it.

Take the "Tax people over 100k at 70%" point. That may sound great in theory, but it would fall apart in practice. People would become less inclined to get into the higher paying jobs since they could end up making the same or more money at far less stressful jobs. Those that would finish college with qualifications to get those jobs would likely just move out of the country to somewhere that their skill set will earn them money at a higher level without being punished. So what you end up with are the top professionals in the country just deciding it's not worth living here any more and buggering off.
You idea punishes those who got us into the mess, yes, but it also punishes and cripples far more people who did not; people who worked hard to get into the positions they did and are now being attacked despite that fact. Instead, the responisibilites need to be spread over everyone so that we can all work to rebuild the country.

I should make it clear that sort of policy I suggested would see savagely high tax rates for those who earn 200k+, etc,. To be honest, I'm a socialist and the rest of your argument to me just seems pointless, no one should earn these ridiculous sums of money anyway and if we more concerned with an equal society as opposed to a materialistic one there's be far less stressing about getting into high paid jobs (because they wouldn't exist )

Yes, it's unfair that sacrifices have to be made by the "poor". Yes, it's unfair that mistakes were made by people in power. But that doesn't mean we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope that the country can be fixed without everyone making sacrifices. We need to work to pull the country out of this mess because its a mess which hits everyone. It's easy to post on a board and bitch and moan about it, throwing the blame on everyone but refusing to accept responsibility. But that won't help the situation.

I truly believe that the poor and working classes should make absolutely no sacrifices because they have nothing to sacrifice. You're also starting to imply that I'm doing nothing but moaning on the internet which is not true at all.

I agree those in fault should be punished but the time to complain about who is running the country has long since passed. The signs of all this were pretty clear a long time ago but we as a country have completly forgotten how to do anything about the injustices. In that way, I respect FYR's current stance of trying to encourage people to actually DO something rather than coming up with these fantastical methods of fixing the country which will never be implimented (even if I think FYR needs to lay off the swearing and caps lock; it's really not making your arguement any clearer and we can read perfectly well in normal text, thanks). I respect the French and the Greeks cause they are doing something by going out and protesting about their governments. And I respect the Iclandics (sp?) who are putting their corrupt politicians on trial for the mess. We, as Irish, will go on the odd march sure, but the sad fact is we'll probably vote in these people again and let them away with the injustices.

I absolutely advocate people DOING something. Get out on the streets, protest. Agitate in university, in your work place, at trade union meetings, whatever! The French and the Greeks have history and tradition when it comes to protesting, we have none and it's so much more difficult to inspire mass movement here. And I'm advocating the alternative to voting in the same cretins, socialism, that's the alternative.

At the same time, with all that said, I'd be arguing for a lot of the cuts regardless of the economic climate, and I think the way the country is, we desperatly need to cut money in a lot of areas, not just one. I've already outlined my views on grants and why they should be cut. In terms of fees, I think people who say "this will stop certain people going to college" are being innocent as well. I think that there is a vast majority of poor people who will never go to college, be the fees what they are now or doubled. I think that the people who want to go now will still find a way to go if fees are increased. I think the ones who will really be affected are those who choose courses simply because it's so easy to go at the moment but then either spend most of their time partying or simply drop out quickly. A rise in fees will decrease numbers but it's always been my opinion that the decrease will not come in those who are "poor" but those who are forced to actually think about the consequences of going to college and choosing if they really want to invest their own money into the education rather than risking wasting the governments.

I also think benifits need to be examined; I live in Drogheda, and it's always annoyed me how there are some people who have kids young and choose to live on benifits and in a council house not because they can't find a job but because they don't want to; because they are choosing a lifestyle where they never have to work and are quite happy to sponge. I think the system needs to be reworked to cover those who are genuine in their job hunt but are finding it hard because of the country we live in, and at the same time punish those who have kids to get money and who have no intention of ever working. I think overseas aid should be slashed dramatically; the fact we are worrying at all about other countries when we are in the toilet really boggles me.

There is a lot of unnessecary spending on the government's part when it comes to the lower classes which could be cut. I guess that's my point. It's not nessecarily that the lower classes should be punished. I just think we need to examine closer the way in which money is thrown around at the various social levels and work out what is nessecary and what is luxury, and use the luxury to pay off our debts.

I could keep ranting but I have a feeling that Leix and some others may be sitting at their computers, shaking their heads and getting ready to rant back so I'll stop for now :P

(God, I love a good debate like this )[/QUOTE]

Of course there are unnecessary expenditures within the government, that's obvious. But there are no need to pursue massive sweeping cuts. You haven't addressed the previous points I made as to how we could generate cash to get us out of this mess. Those are the alternative economic agenda. You won't read about it in the media because it scares the hell out of every centrist/right wing politician because they only have an interest in maintaining capitalism and greed.

funky penguin

FYR wrote: »

The Government want to charge us a €3000 reg fee in Sept!! The Government want to cut the grant by 10%!! THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE TOLD NO!!! STAND UP AND BE COUNTED! HELP MAKE MAYNOOTH STUDENTS UNION HISTORY! JOIN THE PROTEST! I FOR ONE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF BEING STEPPED ON WHILE THEY CHUCK EUR50 BILLION AT SH1TEHAWK BANKERS! IF YOU WANT TO LIE DOWN AND GET TRODDEN ON THEN F*CK OFF TO BELFIELD I.T. AND LET YOUR DADDY PAY THE THREE GRAND! I'M NOT GOING TO REST UNTIL I SEE 40 BUS LOADS OF SCREAMING, PI$$ED OFF MAYNOOTHIANS DRIVING DOWN THE QUAYS! WHO'S F*CKING WITH ME?!?!?

Less of this please.

FYR

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Funky is right, that kind of attitude will not fill 40 buses. All it does it scare away most moderate students who might have taken part. I know it is well intentioned but all it does is alienate a vast majority of students. Your posts reeks of extremism and I do not believe that is what this March is about, it is about motivating as many students as possible Nationwide to take a stand and show that they will not be be easy targets for the Government. To make that done the USI and our SU have to make this March as moderate as possible. I will fully take part and support the March but I feel extreme views like this could be detrimental to what the USI and the SU are trying to achieve.

I am far from extremist, I very seldom protest and am not a member of any of the "Radical" movements. I am centre left in my beliefs but feel that the government are planning on stepping on students.

Kiwi_knock

FYR wrote: »

I am far from extremist, I very seldom protest and am not a member of any of the "Radical" movements. I am centre left in my beliefs but feel that the government are planning on stepping on students.

Your post came across as quite extremist even though I understand you do not hold any radical views. I agree with your view but there is a better ways of promoting the March than your post. Good luck with promoting the March in the college during the week.

LeixlipRed

To calls his views extremist are a bit wide of the mark. He's just being enthusiastic! I don't think he's calling for students to riot in the streets or anything. I do agree that the march must have as broad a appeal as possible though. Individual blocs within the march can use the day to get their particular point across to those students who do turn up.

FYR

LeixlipRed wrote: »

To calls his views extremist are a bit wide of the mark. He's just being enthusiastic! I don't think he's calling for students to riot in the streets or anything. I do agree that the march must have as broad a appeal as possible though. Individual blocs within the march can use the day to get their particular point across to those students who do turn up.

I would disagree with this. I don't see the event as being a suitable platform for pursuing any individual group's political agenda.
We should go as one unified student body and I feel that no groupd should distribute their literature or display their banners. It would be far more effective if we marched as one.

LeixlipRed

Well we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Kiwi_knock

I admit my use of extremism was wrong but as FYR is a member of the SU and will actively be involved with promoting the March his enthuasiasm should be best placed in encouraging as many students as possible to attend in a controlled way with reasoned logic instead of saying the old slogans of down with the government and the like.

Lord TSC

@LeixlipRed

I think I see the main problem in our little thing here. No matter what either of us say, it's obvious we disagree on basic philosophies and thus we're probably never going to come to an agreement here.

See, I disagree with the idea of an equal society since it presupposes that everyone is willing to work to the same extent and that an equality exists. And the sad truth is that isn't how society works. There are people who work hard and there are people who are lazy as sin, and surely those who fall into the former group actually deserve to be rewarded for their efforts? I know we aren't going to see eye to eye there, and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. I guess I just see it as a major stumbling block at the moment in terms of this discussion.

I truly believe that the poor and working classes should make absolutely no sacrifices because they have nothing to sacrifice. You're also starting to imply that I'm doing nothing but moaning on the internet which is not true at all.

Fair enough and power to you if you are doing something. Those comments are really more about my frustration with the country in general as opposed to just you specifically. As for the "The have nothing to sacrifice", I am afraid that again, I disagree. It annoys me that despite the fact I've worked hard to get a proper college education that I can see those who haven't driving round in flash cars and being given free stuff. The priorities in this country is messed up like that, in my opinion. I see some of the people living in council flats with absolutly shocking amounts of luxuries which people who work hard don't get. To say they have nothing, therefore, is a sign of innocence in this arguement to me.

Of course there are unnecessary expenditures within the government, that's obvious. But there are no need to pursue massive sweeping cuts. You haven't addressed the previous points I made as to how we could generate cash to get us out of this mess. Those are the alternative economic agenda. You won't read about it in the media because it scares the hell out of every centrist/right wing politician because they only have an interest in maintaining capitalism and greed.

I did kind of adress the idea when I said I'm not an economist. I don't know how we could generate cash and I certainly have no intentions of making a sweeping claim which looks great in theory but is overly simplistic and unrealistic. However I can see that the money we do have is being wasted in key places and surely it would make sense to cut back on that. Surely cutting down on unnessecary spendings would mean that what little money we do have could be invested in better ways and used to fix some of the problems. We're not going to magically generate huge amounts over night but we can cut back on the flushing of money down the toilets.

But again, I fear that this arguement all boils down to our differing views on how society should work and that's not something we're going to get over during an internet discussion.

LeixlipRed

Fair enough, we don't see eye to eye but I can see a younger version of myself in your opinions. Why are people lazy, why do some people not contribute? Well, it's human nature in one respect. They're always be lazy and wasteful people. But the reality is that a large segment of the working class are essentially like this not because they're just lazy ***** who want nothing but to hang around in gangs and claim the dole but because they're a product of an inequitable society. Why should they care when they have no voice, no chance to get an education for example? Socialism won't irridicate laziness or corruption but the whole idea is to give every person a stake in forming their future. It's all a pipedream of course and difficult for anyone living in our society to even contemplate.

Marx said: "The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas". Think that says it all really.

Lord TSC

In terms of the whole "It's all a pipedream of course and difficult for anyone living in our society to even contemplate.", I should point out that I spent three years doing English and Philosophy (in which one of my few A grades came during "Social Philosophy"). I also did an MA in Postcolonial Cultures and Empires. So please don't think I'm stuck in a capitalist mindset and that I can't see it's flaws. I've dedicated quite a bit of my education to the study of different social viewpoints. I can see the pros and cons of both the world we live in and the world you are trying to propose.

It's not that I am in love with the way society is or the way in which Ireland is run. It's just that I happen to disagree more with the socialist viewpoint because I find it's great in theory but unrealistic in practice.

LeixlipRed

No, I didn't mean to imply you were uneducated at all. Also, my comment about my younger self didn't mean to imply that either or suggest I'm more knowledgeable about the whole issue either. Ok, maybe in practice it isn't realistic in your opinion but why not push it as far as it can go? That's my attitude. Socialism isn't inevitable but **** it, why not try?

Lord TSC

Fair enough about your intentions. Again I say it can be easy sometimes to read an internet post and read it the wrong way

As for the "why not try something different", I just thing that's a very shakey path to take (despite the fact it's my current arguement against my Dad in terms of his views of reelecting the current government :P). This isn't something trivial we're discussing. It's changing our entire social system in the hopes that it would fix our problems, and that's a massive risk to take.

I realise that that paragraph could probably be held against me in a "you're just scared but you can't let fear rule you" way. I just think personally that many of the views held by socialism are unrealistic and the goals are unattainable. On top of that, I just really disagree with any system whereby those who work and work hard aren't rewarded for their efforts.

LeixlipRed

But you have to remember that'd it'd be a gradual change though. The word "revolution" gets thrown around a lot but no one expects a violent rebellion like what happened in 1917 in Russia. It'll take years, decades, centuries maybe. Anyway, I think we've taken up enough of this thread with our debate. Let's give others a chance to have their say on the fees issue.

smiles302

Do the USI have any official statement about this anywhere?

I didn't see anything on their website.

It feels awfully like rumours to say the USI said and not be able to link to where they said it...

Just a general: "Why is there no info anywhere!? Complaint than aimed at anyone.

LeixlipRed

There's nothing on their website yet alright. But then again that'd hardly surprise me.

Lord TSC

Hehe, my brother was in a lecture this morning whereby someone went in and started with the scaremoungering...wasn't impressed, and worse, was terrified about the "facts" being thrown around.

Daemos

Think we just had him. 50% of the people in JH1 would have to go abroad to get work, stuff like that. He did put me off though when he said around half the people in the place were on a grant? That can't be right, can it?

He got a rousing reception though, I'm nearly tempted to go