National Student March 3rd November + General Fees related discussions

LeixlipRed · 15-10-2010 11:06PM #1

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Yeah First Year Rep Elections was horribly advertised last year, much better this year. Has as much to do with the candidates being a lot more vocal this time, really getting their name out there.

I wonder how vocal they'll be when the real work to be done comes or will they be shown up as the careerists we all hope they aren't.

Check this out

USI are stating that the student registration fee will increase by 100% to 3000 euro a year, 10% cut to maintenance grants, 10% increase in the threshold to qualify for such a grant. This deserves it's own thread actually or does anyone care?

squishykins · 15-10-2010 11:12PM

I care! I just about managed this years fees! Just!

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-10-2010 11:16PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I wonder how vocal they'll be when the real work to be done comes or will they be shown up as the careerists we all hope they aren't.

Check this out

USI are stating that the student registration fee will increase by 100% to 3000 euro a year, 10% cut to maintenance grants, 10% increase in the threshold to qualify for such a grant. This deserves it's own thread actually or does anyone care?

I'm gonna get attacked for this but this is why I'm actually in favour of fees as long as a proper loan system is brought in like they have in places like Sweden. With these current times these things are going to happen and the logical thing is to bring in one of these fees/loans systems so the money can go into our education system without making it harder for us students to try manage to get more money every year for our education.

Maybe that's just me though. I'm not even able to get a grant even though I am defo entitled to one so what can i do?!

LeixlipRed · 15-10-2010 11:19PM

In these current times these things are going to happen? So instead of taxing the rich for example we should let people from disadvantaged areas be excluded from education should we? Or instead of reclaiming our natural resources from the oil and gas companies that along with Ray Burke and FF signed deals in the 80s that swindled the tax coffers out of billions in tax revenue we should let people drop out of university and emigrate in search of a job? Admins, giz a new thread will ya

Kiwi_knock · 15-10-2010 11:20PM

Will be attending the March, definitely deserves a thread of its own. A lot of students and societies are spreading the word on Facebook but greater awareness is needed.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-10-2010 11:20PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

In these current times these things are going to happen? So instead of taxing the rich for example we should let people from disadvantaged areas be excluded from education should we? Or instead of reclaiming our natural resources from the oil and gas companies that along with Ray Burke and FF signed deals in the 80s that swindled the tax coffers out of billions in tax revenue we should let people drop our of university and emigrate in search of a job? Admins, giz a new thread will ya

How does a loan system exclude anyone?! We all pay the same fees and work them off when we're working. it's been working in Sweden for over 30 years.

LeixlipRed · 15-10-2010 11:25PM

Because it places the crutch of massive debt on anyone who graduates from university! The assumption that a degree automatically equals a cushy, well paid job and hence easy repayment of your student loans is completely flawed. It might work in Sweden but what about Australia were every year thousands of graduates flee the country to escape paying back student loans? We have no jobs here, how will anyone repay? The truth is the loan system might come in in the long term but this government needs cash savings, loans are no good to them. Educate yourself a little and you'll see that we can all still enjoy free education, we just need to work outside the box economically.

LeixlipRed · 15-10-2010 11:36PM

I should also add that I'm not picking on you, I used to think these half measures (loans, etc,) were worthwile but I've realised now that free education should be a right not a privilege and it has to made work. The long term benefits outweigh any negatives in the short term. If we had a government who cared about anything but the ruling class that might be achievable of course.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-10-2010 11:36PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Because it places the crutch of massive debt on anyone who graduates from university! The assumption that a degree automatically equals a cushy, well paid job and hence easy repayment of your student loans is completely flawed. It might work in Sweden but what about Australia were every year thousands of graduates flee the country to escape paying back student loans? We have no jobs here, how will anyone repay? The truth is the loan system might come in in the long term but this government needs cash savings, loans are no good to them. Educate yourself a little and you'll see that we can all still enjoy free education, we just need to work outside the box economically.

Considering that those who will have these fees will only be looking for jobs in 3/4/5 years times chances are the jobs will be around then. We're not talking about those in university now!

And I never made such an assumption! I don't expect that everyone who gets a degree will make a fortune but once they earn over a certain amount they can pay through their salaries.

And I am quite educated thanks very much. As the daughter of a self employed architect I know exactly how hard this recession is hitting and I knew before most people in this country did. I am basically the only person earning money in my house and do I get a grant? No. So I have done my research and looked at the various systems, because clearly ours is not working properly. I've thought about this a lot, unlike many (not aiming at anyone in particular) who are already to complain but haven't done their research as to what or why

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-10-2010 11:40PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I should also add that I'm not picking on you, I used to think these half measures (loans, etc,) were worthwile but I've realised now that free education should be a right not a privilege and it has to made work. The long term benefits outweigh any negatives in the short term. If we had a government who cared about anything but the ruling class that might be achievable of course.

I understand that about free education and I wish it were more possible but if it really was so many more countries would make free education an option.

and in the same line, don't take this all as directly at you. This is the first time I've actually properly debate this so I'm also arguing against comments I have seen and heard by others before

LeixlipRed · 15-10-2010 11:49PM

I don't think you have examined all the options to be honest. Where have you researched? If you confine your research to the mainstream media you'll find that all anyone is saying is that a)can't let the banks go bust b)have to cut the deficit, need to make cuts or c)ok, those are true but let's fire loads of money into the economy and try to reignite it. a) is an untruth. b) obviously we need to cut the defecit, why are these cuts so obvious? And c) we cannot borrow hence we cannot do (and hence why Labour who favour this approach will be sfa use in government if they do get in).

The alternative is simple:

-let the banks go bust, default on the debts owed to bondholders.
-rewrite the constitution to allow us to rip up agreements made with Shell, Statoil, etc to allow us to nationalise (or tax at 70% or 80% just like in Norway for example) our natural resources
-Put a tax on wealth which wouldn't apply to individual homes
-Tax all those earning over 100k a year at 70%

All those measures would allow us to provide free education for all, the defecit would be hugely cut and eventually we'd get out of this mess. The only reason you think we can't have free education is because you think the economic situation must be doom and gloom. But that is not the case!

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-10-2010 11:58PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I don't think you have examined all the options to be honest. Where have you researched? If you confine your research to the mainstream media you'll find that all anyone is saying is that a)can't let the banks go bust b)have to cut the deficit, need to make cuts or c)ok, those are true but let's fire loads of money into the economy and try to reignite it. a) is an untruth. b) obviously we need to cut the defecit, why are these cuts so obvious? And c) we cannot borrow hence we cannot do (and hence why Labour who favour this approach will be sfa use in government if they do get in).

The alternative is simple:

-let the banks go bust, default on the debts owed to bondholders.
-rewrite the constitution to allow us to rip up agreements made with Shell, Statoil, etc to allow us to nationalise (or tax at 70% or 80% just like in Norway for example) our natural resources
-Put a tax on wealth which wouldn't apply to individual homes
-Tax all those earning over 100k a year at 70%

All those measures would allow us to provide free education for all, the defecit would be hugely cut and eventually we'd get out of this mess. The only reason you think we can't have free education is because you think the economic situation must be doom and gloom. But that is not the case!

If it was all that simple why hasn't any of that been done. And don't give me the usual "our government are ****e" crap. And I'm not trying to be smart or anything!

even if we did all that there would still be the reg fees and the grant issues and everything we have now. There's also the issue that third level education is not the only issue that our government have to deal with, the country has so many issues right now that we can hardly just expect for ours to be the only one focused on

LeixlipRed · 16-10-2010 12:07AM

But they're all issues created by the current goverment and it's cronies! And they have no interest in pursuing those fiscal policies because it goes against everything they believe in. Greed and capitalism is all they care about, protecting their own in the bondholders and board members of our financial institutions that gambles our money away. It's too long and complex an issue to get into on a message board but if you want to know more I suggest coming along to a meeting of SWSS which is the Socialist Workers Student Soc. PM if you want details. If you really want to educate yourself about what's possible if we just forget everything that's bet into us by the mainstream political parties then that's a good place to start.

And education is certainly not the only issue but it's up there with the healthcare and welfare systems. How do we insure that the future of our country if not through education?

LeixlipRed · 16-10-2010 12:15AM

As some of you may or may not be aware USI has been in negotiations with the government in relation to cuts to third level education funding in advance of December's budget. Figures released in the last couple of days show that the government are planning to increase the registration fee by 100% to 3000euro, decrease maintenance grants by 10% and also increase the threshold at which one qualifies for the grant by 10%. These figures are a spectacular attack on students in this country and in anticipation of this USI have planed a march for Nov 3rd.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=124538357601069

I'd encourage everyone to attend. FEE is starting up again on campus and will be setting up a stall in the Arts Block next week to inform people about these forthcoming cuts and to build for this and future protests.

Mod: Can someone change the title to include the date? Cheers

XxMCRxBabyxX · 16-10-2010 12:47AM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

But they're all issues created by the current goverment and it's cronies! And they have no interest in pursuing those fiscal policies because it goes against everything they believe in. Greed and capitalism is all they care about, protecting their own in the bondholders and board members of our financial institutions that gambles our money away. It's too long and complex an issue to get into on a message board but if you want to know more I suggest coming along to a meeting of SWSS which is the Socialist Workers Student Soc. PM if you want details. If you really want to educate yourself about what's possible if we just forget everything that's bet into us by the mainstream political parties then that's a good place to start.

And education is certainly not the only issue but it's up there with the healthcare and welfare systems. How do we insure that the future of our country if not through education?

Sorry but I actually have a policy of not linking myself to any parties at all. It's nothing personal but I prefer to keep myself neutral and away from all this damn politics drama.

But I do take your points on board and I am going to look into this all more but at the moment I still stand by my original point

funky penguin · 16-10-2010 12:55AM

Merged with the posts from the general discussion thread, and date added to the title.

banquo · 16-10-2010 04:27AM

Union has big, big plans for this march. Had a big meeting about it today. More info Monday.

LeixlipRed · 16-10-2010 12:46PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Sorry but I actually have a policy of not linking myself to any parties at all. It's nothing personal but I prefer to keep myself neutral and away from all this damn politics drama.

But I do take your points on board and I am going to look into this all more but at the moment I still stand by my original point

No, I absolutely appreciate that stance and in some ways I agree with it. What I mean is if you come along you can hear our side of the story too, no one would force you to join up like

I've only recently signed up to the SWP and that took a lot of thought before I decided I was ready to actually sign a piece of paper.

Anyway, there are alternatives! Check out swp.ie for example, lot's of socialist propoganda but a lot educational and alternative stuff about the economics of it all.

LeixlipRed · 16-10-2010 12:47PM

banquo wrote: »

Union has big, big plans for this march. Had a big meeting about it today. More info Monday.

Good stuff, look forward to hearing about it!

kisaragi · 17-10-2010 01:00AM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I don't think you have examined all the options to be honest. Where have you researched? If you confine your research to the mainstream media you'll find that all anyone is saying is that a)can't let the banks go bust b)have to cut the deficit, need to make cuts or c)ok, those are true but let's fire loads of money into the economy and try to reignite it. a) is an untruth. b) obviously we need to cut the defecit, why are these cuts so obvious? And c) we cannot borrow hence we cannot do (and hence why Labour who favour this approach will be sfa use in government if they do get in).

The alternative is simple:

-let the banks go bust, default on the debts owed to bondholders.
-rewrite the constitution to allow us to rip up agreements made with Shell, Statoil, etc to allow us to nationalise (or tax at 70% or 80% just like in Norway for example) our natural resources
-Put a tax on wealth which wouldn't apply to individual homes
-Tax all those earning over 100k a year at 70%

All those measures would allow us to provide free education for all, the defecit would be hugely cut and eventually we'd get out of this mess. The only reason you think we can't have free education is because you think the economic situation must be doom and gloom. But that is not the case!

Taxing people at 70% is ridiculous... Anyone earning over 100k obviously worked hard to get where they are and I think they deserve to keep more than 30% of their wages... It's not like 100k is a massive wage either when many of these people are likely to be far along in their career with dependent children/mortages/car loans etc etc etc...

Although I'll freely admit that economics and politics are not my area of expertise, and I don't have a better solution, but it irks me when people shout that we should just put extremely high taxes on the "rich"... when they probably contribute a lot more to the economy than those sitting on benefits.

LeixlipRed · 17-10-2010 01:12AM

Ah will you ever cop on! Contribute to the economy? What the hell does that even mean? 100k is a massive wage when you compare it to all the people who are getting paid 0k per year due to the ineptitudes of those in power and in the financial sector. The assumption that people on the dole are just lazy cretins devoid of interest in earning a wage is miles from the truth. Tax those who are most able to pay. Someone who earns 100k a year is far better off than a man or woman with a family who just got laid off and is now on benefits. If you don't have a better solution then maybe you should just agree this is it!

Lord TSC · 17-10-2010 11:55AM

If you don't have a better solution then maybe you should just agree this is it!

I've not agreed with you up until now but I at least respected how you were putting forward your point. But that last sentence is extremly dodgy. Just because people don't have a viable option doesn't mean we should just jump behind that one cause it exists. There needs to be more behind a choice than "It's the only one" and really, it's not. "Better" is a term based on personal opinion.

I agree about taxing the rich to some extent but not quite that heavily. As has been said, some people work hard for that high wage and they deserve to be rewarded as a result. I know there are some out there who abuse their positions of power for financial gain but your option is extreme. What would even be the point of working hard and working your way up the ladder if you would be punished for it? In fact, what would be the point of going to college if your reward is then to face high tax and poor income?

I find my major problem with arguements on this sort of subject though is that no one is willing to see a cut in their own lifestyle and expects everyone else to suffer. The truth is, the entire country needs to realise sacrifices are in order, for everyone from the top to the bottom of the ladder. I hate to say it, but grants and benifits do need to be cut. Taking grants as an example, I think €3,000 a year is a stupid amount tbh. I was able to walk away every year with about 1,200 of that in the bank for personal spending. And as great as that was, the government should not be funding people like that. The grants could take a hit.

I'm not saying it should all be laid on the feet of the poor. I'm writing this as someone who is currently unemployed with no job prospect in sight. Yes, the taxes on the rich (especially those over a far larger sum than Leix suggests) need to increase, but the sacrifices will and must be made by EVERYONE. And unfortunatly, that means fees are going to go up, grants are going to go down and life is going to get a little tighter.

LeixlipRed · 17-10-2010 12:15PM

You'll note the word maybe in the quote you've taken. If you can't present an alternative and you can't seen anything wrong with what I've presented then what's wrong with it?

Anyway, you say everyone has to suffer? Why is that? Who caused this financical crisis? People in the banking sector, legislators, politicians, etc,. I don't buy into the, "we all particapted" argument pushed around by the media. It was the banks responsibility to insure credit was given to only those who could repay. They didn't do that hence it's the banks fault and the legislators' fault for allowing the banks free reign. My view is that it was a tiny percentage of extremely well off people who ****ed us over and now the same people are telling us we have to pay for it en masse. Why is that? I'm not gonna repeat my suggestions on how we can generate money in this crisis without following any of the mainstream parties' suggested cuts. They're in a previous post, they'd generate billions in fresh revenue and we wouldn't have this crutch of the banks/bondholders.

To explain why FF/FG/Lab won't allow us to default on the debt (willingly anyway) is because we'd then find ourselves ostracised (like Argentina in 2001), no one would want to lend to us (no one in the EU or the West anyway). What Argentina did was they found other sources to buy their debt. There's always someone willing. Argentina then experienced a boom period post defaulting on their debt so it is possible to recover while being an international parriah. Anyway, all my arguments are there, there are alternatives to what you hear in the media, that's my final point.

megaten · 17-10-2010 02:02PM

What gets me is the assumption the government seem to have that most collage courses are actually worth full fees. I can't speak for anyone else but I barely consider my degree to be worth the 1,500 i pay now. If registration fee's were bumped to 3,000 or full fee's being introduced I'd expect a serious bump in services. Like actually having enough demonstrators in a lab or lecturer's who can write legibly.

LeixlipRed · 17-10-2010 02:47PM

But that won't happen, these increase in registration fees are to cover a hole in the finances, not to add more finance to the 3rd level sector. So nothing will change. Though to be honest, lectures writing illegibly is hardly something to be complaining about. Students already have a bad name as whingers for coming out with stuff like that.

banquo · 17-10-2010 04:37PM

Typical university: We need 100 euro for the year to function.
Govt: That's great. Here's 85. Make the rest out of the reg fee.

Reg fee = 15 euro.

Typical university: We still need 100 euro for the year to function.
Govt: That's great. Here's 70. Make the rest out of the reg fee.

Reg fee = 30 euro.

It's literally that simple.

LeixlipRed · 17-10-2010 04:38PM

Exactly! People think this extra money they'll be paying will convert into extra services,etc,. It won't, it's just maintaining the status quo and barely at that.

banquo · 17-10-2010 04:49PM

It's fees. The registration fee is a tuition fee. It has no specific purpose - it's just money that the college needs to make up the shortfall in state funding.

FYR · 17-10-2010 05:40PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I wonder how vocal they'll be when the real work to be done comes or will they be shown up as the careerists we all hope they aren't.

Check this out

USI are stating that the student registration fee will increase by 100% to 3000 euro a year, 10% cut to maintenance grants, 10% increase in the threshold to qualify for such a grant. This deserves it's own thread actually or does anyone care?

Join my group http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=134348353284624&index=1

FYR · 17-10-2010 05:40PM

CALLING ALL STUDENTS!!!! WE ARE THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY!!! TELL THIS GOVERNMENT THAT WE WILL TAKE NO MORE!! NO MORE GRANT CUTS! NO MORE RISES IN THE REG FEE! WE WILL STAND SILENTLY NO MORE!! WE NEED EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU TO TELL THEM THAT WE WILL NOT PAY A €3000 REG FEE!! JOIN THE PROTEST!! WEDNESDAY NOV 3RD 12.30PM! BUSES LEAVING FROM THE COLLEGE!!!

Liber8or · 17-10-2010 05:48PM

Can someone please post a link (a credible, reliable source) which states/confirms the registration fee will increase to €3000?

Or are we all marching against something which has not happened or been confirmed to happen yet?

National Student March 3rd November + General Fees related discussions

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