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attempt number 2. the holocaust what exactly happened.

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    #62
    TMoreno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭TMoreno


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    What are you on about, seriously? Who are these individuals who killed millions and where are they lecturing? I thought this thread was about holocaust denial?

    Holocaust denial does not exist. What we have is skepticism regarding the holohoax.

    Prove us that 6 million Jews died during WWII
    Prove us that Gas chambers were used by Germany during WWII.
    Prove us that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews.
    The holohoax is a religion based on those claims. It is the only thing that is sacred today. You can insult anything but you can't challenge the holohoax. Now I lost patience. If you can't discuss what happened during WWII that means that there is something wrong like with the 9/11 story.
    The holohoax and 9/11 stories are used to justify new wars and this is why I am skeptical about them.

    By the way nobody said that Jews did not die during WWII. Yes Jews died during WWII like Germans, Russians, Polish and other people.
    The Jews want you to believe that I believe that no Jews died during WWII so they can call me crazy or denier.


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    #63
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    TMoreno wrote: »
    Holocaust denial does not exist. What we have is skepticism regarding the holohoax.
    No, holoocaust denial is very real.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Prove us that 6 million Jews died during WWII
    The number of deaths is the only thing that I can really see as being up for debate, but rather than a conspiracy it really seems to be a problem with too many sources.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Prove us that Gas chambers were used by Germany during WWII.
    Witnesses don't count as evidence? Not even the Nazi's who used them?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Prove us that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews.

    There's actually plenty of documentation about that.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    The holohoax is a religion based on those claims. It is the only thing that is sacred today. You can insult anything but you can't challenge the holohoax.
    Yes you can. You're doing it right now, aren't you?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Now I lost patience. If you can't discuss what happened during WWII that means that there is something wrong like with the 9/11 story.
    What can't you discuss? Again, you're saying everything you want, right now.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    The holohoax and 9/11 stories are used to justify new wars and this is why I am skeptical about them.
    What war did the holocaust justify?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    By the way nobody said that Jews did not die during WWII. Yes Jews died during WWII like Germans, Russians, Polish and other people.
    The Jews want you to believe that I believe that no Jews died during WWII so they can call me crazy or denier.
    Then how many do you think died? And how do you think they died?


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    #64
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    TMoreno wrote: »
    Holocaust denial does not exist. What we have is skepticism regarding the holohoax.

    Prove us that 6 million Jews died during WWII
    Prove us that Gas chambers were used by Germany during WWII.
    Prove us that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews.
    The holohoax is a religion based on those claims. It is the only thing that is sacred today. You can insult anything but you can't challenge the holohoax. Now I lost patience. If you can't discuss what happened during WWII that means that there is something wrong like with the 9/11 story.
    The holohoax and 9/11 stories are used to justify new wars and this is why I am skeptical about them.

    By the way nobody said that Jews did not die during WWII. Yes Jews died during WWII like Germans, Russians, Polish and other people.
    The Jews want you to believe that I believe that no Jews died during WWII so they can call me crazy or denier.

    Disgusting, you seemd pissed off that jews have something to prove that anti-semitism exists. How does the fact that you refer to the holocaust as the holohoax reconcile with you last paragraph, baffling as well as disgusting.
    Let me guess, you also think jews could crash the worlds financial system.


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    #65
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    TMoreno wrote: »
    II that means that there is something wrong like with the 9/11 story.
    The holohoax and 9/11 stories are used to justify new wars and this is why I am skeptical about them.

    No one is stopping anyone discussing 9/11 conspiracies. What they are doing is debunking them because they are highly flawed.
    What war was the holocaust used to justify?
    The Jews want you to believe that I believe that no Jews died during WWII so they can call me crazy or denier.

    Well, this is just clearly anti-Semite gibberish. Don't flatter yourself that an entire religion gives a crap what you think.


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    #66
    TMoreno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭TMoreno


    humanji wrote: »
    No, holoocaust denial is very real.


    The number of deaths is the only thing that I can really see as being up for debate, but rather than a conspiracy it really seems to be a problem with too many sources.


    Witnesses don't count as evidence? Not even the Nazi's who used them?



    There's actually plenty of documentation about that.


    Yes you can. You're doing it right now, aren't you?


    What can't you discuss? Again, you're saying everything you want, right now.


    What war did the holocaust justify?

    Then how many do you think died? And how do you think they died?

    The holohoax always use the same argument? Plenty of documents? Show me one document, just one. Even better, show me one proof! just one.
    Witnessess? What witnessess the German soldiers who have been tortured? You seem to think that it is an academic debate. It's not. It's a political debate.
    You cannot discuss the holohaox on TV, on the radio, or in a newspaper even in Ireland. You can only talk about it on the internet.
    When was the last time you had a debate about the holohoax on TV? When was the last time you saw Robert Faurisson where he was free to discuss his ideas? He has been denied that right.
    Do you deny that if you question the holohoax in Europe you are going to be sued? Do you deny that people are in jail in Europe for saying that they don't believe the Jewish version of WWII. Yes people are in Jail for questioning the holohoax while you can freely discuss any other tragic event. I can prove it.

    Don't you understand that you cannot ask the question of how many died without been thrown into prison in Europe? In order to investigate you will have to go to Germany or Poland where it is forbiden to discuss the holohoax.
    The Jews want 6 millions and that's it.

    You say the holohoax does not justify wars? You deny that Israel use the holohoax to justify its wars? They say so! Israel and the USA say that they need to attack Iran to avoid a new holohaox. Do you deny that Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad have been compared to Hitler? Yes they have been attacked.

    I read everything about what you call the holocaust and I read Jewish sources as well. I spend a lot of my time on this issue and it makes me angry when I see people repeating what they saw on TV without comparing the sources or questioning their own beliefs. Therefore if I see that like for 9/11, I am threatened (in France or Germany)or mocked or ridiculed ( on boards.ie) because I question the official version then it just reinforces my suspicions.

    I don't have the truth, I am looking for it. I don't want to hurt, mock or insult any Jew and I don't advocate for any violence against the Jews. But it does not mean submission.
    I am done with that.


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    #67
    Yitzhak Rabin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    TMoreno wrote: »
    holohoax ... holohaox ... holohoax ... holohoax ... holohoax ... holohoax ... holohoax

    TMoreno, please refrain from using the phrase "holohoax" from now on. You are welcome to continue to discuss the topic, however that phrase is deeply offensive, inflammatory and insensitive and further use of that word, for which the only purpose is to inflame, will not be tolerated.


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    #68
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    TMoreno wrote: »
    You say the holohoax does not justify wars? You deny that Israel use the holohoax to justify its wars? They say so! Israel and the USA say that they need to attack Iran to avoid a new holohaox. Do you deny that Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad have been compared to Hitler? Yes they have been attacked.
    What? :confused:


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    #69
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    gaytony wrote: »
    I also think it's ridiculous that irish schools devote huge amounts of time discussing the holocaust during histroy classes and minimal time discussing the English version of the Irish potato Famine.

    Um - possibly because one is on the syllabus and the other isn't??


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    #70
    TMoreno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭TMoreno


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    No one is stopping anyone discussing 9/11 conspiracies. What they are doing is debunking them because they are highly flawed.
    What war was the holocaust used to justify?



    Well, this is just clearly anti-Semite gibberish. Don't flatter yourself that an entire religion gives a crap what you think.

    Fact: 9/11 is not discussed on TV, the radio or the press. People who question the official version are just ridiculed and branded conspiracy theory or attacked. That's not the sign of a free debate.

    Fact: Jews with all their influence have pushed for laws to forbid any debate regarding the holocaust in Europe and forbid any debate on TV.
    If you believe that I believe that all the Jews think the same I don't care.
    Israel wars have been justified by the holocaust.

    Yekahs: I've edited your post. I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt, and take it that you were already in the process of writing this reply before my warning. Further breaches will result in infractions/bans


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    #71
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TMoreno wrote: »
    Holocaust denial does not exist. What we have is skepticism regarding the holohoax.

    Prove us that 6 million Jews died during WWII
    Prove us that Gas chambers were used by Germany during WWII.
    Prove us that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews.
    The holohoax is a religion based on those claims. It is the only thing that is sacred today. You can insult anything but you can't challenge the holohoax. Now I lost patience. If you can't discuss what happened during WWII that means that there is something wrong like with the 9/11 story.
    The holohoax and 9/11 stories are used to justify new wars and this is why I am skeptical about them.

    By the way nobody said that Jews did not die during WWII. Yes Jews died during WWII like Germans, Russians, Polish and other people.
    The Jews want you to believe that I believe that no Jews died during WWII so they can call me crazy or denier.

    Well you are trying to challenge it, albeit very poorly. The onus of proof for whatever claims you are making is on you, naturally.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #72
    TMoreno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭TMoreno


    yekahs wrote: »
    TMoreno, please refrain from using the phrase "holohoax" from now on. You are welcome to continue to discuss the topic, however that phrase is deeply offensive, inflammatory and insensitive and further use of that word, for which the only purpose is to inflame, will not be tolerated.

    I will not use this word anymore as I think people don't understand what I mean.
    I won't discuss it either as I see that people never read Raul Hilberg a Jew who wrote The Destruction of the European Jews or Robert Faurisson who contradict him.
    People have never heard either of the Zundel trials or the Faurisson trial therefore there is no point of arguing.


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    #73
    TMoreno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭TMoreno


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well you are trying to challenge it, albeit very poorly. The onus of proof for whatever claims you are making is on you, naturally.

    You defend the holocaust very poorly.


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    #74
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    TMoreno wrote: »
    The holohoax always use the same argument? Plenty of documents? Show me one document, just one. Even better, show me one proof! just one.
    There's a large amount of documentation and reports that were sent to Hiltler. I've got links to the text, but no doubt you'll want me to hand you the original. Here's a link that has a translation of one from Himmler. If you email Brown University, they should eb able to organise a visit for you to see the original and if you bring your own experts then they'll authenticate it for you.

    TMoreno wrote: »
    Witnessess? What witnessess the German soldiers who have been tortured? You seem to think that it is an academic debate. It's not. It's a political debate.

    Any proof that they were tortured and forced to change their story? Any reason in the years since, none have come forward and cleared their names?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    You cannot discuss the holohaox on TV, on the radio, or in a newspaper even in Ireland. You can only talk about it on the internet.
    Yes you can. It's when you go on a racist rant that peopel stop listening to you.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    When was the last time you had a debate about the holohoax on TV?
    When was the last time you had a debate about whether or not gravity is real?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    When was the last time you saw Robert Faurisson where he was free to discuss his ideas? He has been denied that right.
    He's an out and out racist and is widely ignored for being such.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Do you deny that if you question the holohoax in Europe you are going to be sued?
    Yes. Are you in Europe? Are you questioning the holocaust? Are you currently being sued as a result?
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Do you deny that people are in jail in Europe for saying that they don't believe the Jewish version of WWII. Yes people are in Jail for questioning the holohoax while you can freely discuss any other tragic event. I can prove it.

    I'm fairly sure you can't.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Don't you understand that you cannot ask the question of how many died without been thrown into prison in Europe?

    Well, how many people died? Hmmm, I'm not in prison yet...
    TMoreno wrote: »
    In order to investigate you will have to go to Germany or Poland where it is forbiden to discuss the holohoax.
    No it's not.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    The Jews want 6 millions and that's it.
    I don't like using this, but it's needed: :rolleyes:

    edit: had to run out before getting to the rest:
    You say the holohoax does not justify wars? You deny that Israel use the holohoax to justify its wars? They say so! Israel and the USA say that they need to attack Iran to avoid a new holohaox.
    I asked what wars it justified. Are you saying that the holocaust was created to justify a war that hasn't happened 70 years later?
    Do you deny that Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and Ahmadinejad have been compared to Hitler? Yes they have been attacked.
    So?

    I read everything about what you call the holocaust and I read Jewish sources as well. I spend a lot of my time on this issue and it makes me angry when I see people repeating what they saw on TV without comparing the sources or questioning their own beliefs. Therefore if I see that like for 9/11, I am threatened (in France or Germany)or mocked or ridiculed ( on boards.ie) because I question the official version then it just reinforces my suspicions.
    It makes me angry when people repeat stuff from neo-nazi sites and automatically discount anything that might contradict them, without even bothering to find out if it's true or not.
    I don't have the truth, I am looking for it. I don't want to hurt, mock or insult any Jew and I don't advocate for any violence against the Jews. But it does not mean submission.
    I am done with that.
    But you just refuse to accept anything that might not go with your way of thinking? That's not looking for the truth, that's trying to prove your opinion right.


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    #75
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    TMoreno wrote: »
    Fact: 9/11 is not discussed on TV, the radio or the press. People who question the official version are just ridiculed and branded conspiracy theory or attacked. That's not the sign of a free debate.

    It's discussed all the time depending on where you look, we discuss it all the time too. The ridicule may have something to do with the amount of head cases who believe patently ridiculous things about 911.
    TMoreno wrote: »
    Fact: Jews with all their influence have pushed for laws to forbid any debate regarding the holohoax in Europe and forbid any debate on TV.
    If you believe that I believe that all the Jews think the same I don't care.
    Israel wars have been justified by the holohoax.

    sigh... no where is it forbidden to discus the holocaust. You keep saying it is yet we keep discussing it.
    At this point I'd very much like to tell you what I think about you and your bullshít "holohoax" talk but I'd be banned and believe me you're not worth it. I don't give a shít if you don't like the Israelis or their actions, it doesn't justify dismissing the deaths of all those millions of innocent people.


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    #76
    Yitzhak Rabin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    TMoreno wrote: »
    I will not use this word anymore as I think people don't understand what I mean.
    I won't discuss it either as I see that people never read Raul Hilberg a Jew who wrote The Destruction of the European Jews or Robert Faurisson who contradict him.
    People have never heard either of the Zundel trials or the Faurisson trial therefore there is no point of arguing.

    Can't say I have read the books you mentioned. However I have heard of both the Zundel, Faurisson, and Irving trials. All of which I vehemently oppose. They were breaches of those mens rights.

    Obviously I think they are all wrong, and hold holocaust deniers in the highest of contempt. That doesn't automatically mean that it should be against the law.


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    #77
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TMoreno wrote: »
    You defend the holocaust very poorly.

    That misses the point.

    Why do you think there was no documentation showing Hitler definitively ordering exterminations? You not think it is conceivable that the Nazi's covered it up?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #78
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    K-9 wrote: »
    That misses the point.

    Why do you think there was no documentation showing Hitler definitively ordering exterminations? You not think it is conceivable that the Nazi's covered it up?

    Why would they cover it up?

    Obviously the holocaust happened to some degree and I don't doubt the official numbers as I have no reason to, and morally it is irrelevant to me if it was 10,000 or 10 million. But reading this thread has perked my interest in the reasons why people don't doubt it. In the interests of accuracy can someone point me in the direction of the most convincing sources of evidence that there was deaths in the millions and of the gas chambers etc.


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    #79
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Why would they cover it up?

    Obviously the holocaust happened to some degree and I don't doubt the official numbers as I have no reason to, and morally it is irrelevant to me if it was 10,000 or 10 million. But reading this thread has perked my interest in the reasons why people don't doubt it. In the interests of accuracy can someone point me in the direction of the most convincing sources of evidence that there was deaths in the millions and of the gas chambers etc.
    With regards the gas chambers, look into Josef Mengele if you want more information. There have been countless books and papers written on him post-war, mostly based on the testimony of both inmates and prison guards.
    Olga Lengyel, an inmate doctor, described Mengele as ''far and away the chief provider for the gas chamber and the crematory ovens."
    Source


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    #80
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Why would they cover it up?

    I'd say if they had won the war, they could deny it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #81
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TMoreno wrote: »
    You defend the holocaust very poorly.

    :eek:

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #82
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    While I in no way would deny that there was a holocaust I think its very dangerous that anything cant be questioned. I hate the way that the holocaust has been used politically.

    But I have not the slightest doubt it happened, considering the amount of pow they let starve in Russia over a few months I dont think its very impausable that they killed 6 million in camps. And is the 6 million not total including the eizengruppen not just those that were killed in camps. From Himmlers own mouth in a speech were he stated that they were killing jews, eichman, comanders in camps are these people all in on it too.


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    #83
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Why would they cover it up?

    Obviously the holocaust happened to some degree and I don't doubt the official numbers as I have no reason to, and morally it is irrelevant to me if it was 10,000 or 10 million. But reading this thread has perked my interest in the reasons why people don't doubt it. In the interests of accuracy can someone point me in the direction of the most convincing sources of evidence that there was deaths in the millions and of the gas chambers etc.

    They would cover it up because they knew would lose the war and had a fair idea of what would happen to them.There was also widespread revulsion at the T 4 program by german people so its unlikely that most people, would agree to what they were doing, I am fairly sure about that. I suppose that T 4 didnt happen either but that has Hiltlers signiture on it so it doesnt get mentioned so often.


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    #84
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    TMoreno wrote: »
    The holohoax always use the same argument? Plenty of documents? Show me one document, just one. Even better, show me one proof! just one.

    Diaries. Goebbels, Joseph, 1897-1945 H. Hamilton, 1948.
    Translated by Louis P Lochner.
    February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

    March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.


    October 4, 1943 (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, ) Recorded on Audio Tape from at Posen.
    I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

    http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/13/secondworldwar.kateconnolly


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    #85
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    heres an interesting piece about A holocaust happening to 6 Million European Jews, I blanked out the date, Guess when i was Published


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    #86
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    some old dude, who lived through the war, was saying that before the war there were only 5 million jews in Europe, and after it there were 4.5 million..putting the number killed at ~500k..ive looked for it several times since but cant find it..

    That old dude must have known everything!

    Obviously, according to the "old dude" 73% of the Jews in Europe must have lived in Poland.

    According to the Polish national census of 1921, there were 2,845,364 Jews living in the Second Polish Republic; but, by late 1938 that number has grown by over 16% to approximately 3,310,000.

    What a joke the "old dude" must have been having with anyone that would be so gullible.


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    #87
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    heres an interesting piece about A holocaust happening to 6 Million European Jews, I blanked out the date, Guess when i was Published


    From "The Jew in the American World"

    Could have been published around 1996


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    #88
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    CQD
    Try here http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-holocaust-lies-hoax-frauds-blackflagops-hoaxarchive.html

    You should be able to find the reference you are looking for.


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    #89
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    CQD
    Try here http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-holocaust-lies-hoax-frauds-blackflagops-hoaxarchive.html

    You should be able to find the reference you are looking for.

    That site comes up with a big warning on my Firefox, WOT Security adviser doesn't like it, must be in on it!

    jewwatch.com | WOT Reputation Scorecard | WOT Web of Trust

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #90
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    K-9 wrote: »
    That site comes up with a big warning on my Firefox, WOT Security adviser doesn't like it, must be in on it!

    jewwatch.com | WOT Reputation Scorecard | WOT Web of Trust

    Well you have heard of the GIYUS Shills, they attack any site that disagrees with their version of Jewish history.

    Jew Watch is a useful reference site.


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    #91
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Well you have heard of the GIYUS Shills, they attack any site that disagrees with their version of Jewish history.

    LOL. The reviews are rather mixed so it comes up red!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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