attempt number 2. the holocaust what exactly happened.

Yitzhak Rabin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

See there ya Go, I must be an antiSemite because I ask questions, No other explanation for it,

I haven't a notion what your motivations are, I can't jump inside your head and hear your thoughts.

would it have something to do with the Massive inconsistinies in the official story, and a desire to Know for certain how many people were killed, what was the beakdown of Nationalities/Groups

That isn't research. Like I said earlier, its the same as what creationists do. They look at a huge body of evidence, ignore it, and then find small inconsistencies, harp on and on and on about them, as if it disproves the consensus. If anyone is foolish enough to engage with them, they will either refuse to accept the explanation for the anomaly, or move on to the next anomaly. Its an extremely frustrating process, and hence why you don't hear of too many credible historians even bothering to address the issue.

Most of the 'Holocaust Survivors' are Jews who Fled before the Holocaust, the Fact that people Survived the 'Death Camps' at all is suspicious in my book, and hey these individuals may well have been ed the same line of Bull that we have, it just sounded more convincing from them.

Why do you put holocaust survivors in inverted commas?

So its your contention, that the holocaust survivors are liars, thats what I was talking about, when I said Holocaust denialism relies on a deeply anti-semitic precept - i.e they made it all up. I sincerely hope you don't ever express those sentiments to an actual survivor, or their families.

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Then theres the mounting evidence of Fakery inthe imidiate aftermath of the War, the Lck of 'Prussian Blue'on the walls of the Gas Chamgbers, the alleged chambers thatwere obviously not used for that purpose, the Lack of Mas Graves, or evidence of Mass burials at a few of the sites leads me to the conclusion that Somone is lying somewhere

Rather than address each of those points, let me direct you to a set of 120 questions you may have, with the answers to those questions here.

Because, as I mentioned above, what will happen is, you will make a claim, like the Zyklon-B one, it will be addressed, you will then move on and say, where is Hitlers order??? This will then continue on and on and on. Its not something I am particularly interested in discussing, as I've been down that road too many times before.

Whens the International Rwandan Holocaust Memorial Day??????

7th of April.

BBC wrote:

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan called for a worldwide minute of silence at 1200 local time to mark International Day of Reflection on the Genocide in Rwanda.

Just type in 'remembers Rwanda', and you'll get a plethora of results of people acknowledging and solemnly remembering the Rwandan genocide.

thebullkf

^^awesome^^

profitius

I saw a documentary once about it. The guy making it researched it and showed plenty of evidence of lies being told and exposed many liars. So theres propaganda there alright.

I'm not an expert on it but it sickens me that people are not allowed to talk about it. They use the race card to stop people talking about it and that alone means they're covering something up. Its like bringing people to court if they questioned the amount of people who died in the Irish famine.

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

Prove it!

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi. WHY WERE THE ALL THE MEMBERS NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS??? That's not conference that's a rally...

You hardly think an ex-college lecturer like Faurisson is going to do that for free? I mean his books are hardly making him any money. Of course they are being paid.

So are you going to back up what you claimed like you've been asked already?

Let's get one thing straight here. These guys are not questioning the Holocaust. They are denying it outright.

So while the Holocaust should be examined and questioned in a scientific manner, these loons are scooting around looking for proof that it didn't happen. They are coming to the table with their minds already made up and looking to prove their hypothesis.

BTW. Anyone who would use the word holohoax is a prick in by book.

meglome

profitius wrote: »

I saw a documentary once about it. The guy making it researched it and showed plenty of evidence of lies being told and exposed many liars. So theres propaganda there alright.

I'm not an expert on it but it sickens me that people are not allowed to talk about it. They use the race card to stop people talking about it and that alone means they're covering something up. Its like bringing people to court if they questioned the amount of people who died in the Irish famine.

Sigh.. you can talk about it all you want. It just denying it happened is a crime in some countries. You can talk about how many died till the cows come home. It's a crime to deny it happened in Germany, the very country you'd assume would want to minimise their involvement in it. Why do you think that is?

studiorat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Scratched the surface??? Official Story? Come on, you hardly expect us to believe that. You thought the Protocols of The Elders of Zion was factual ffs.

TMoreno

studiorat wrote: »

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi.

You hardly think an ex-college lecturer like Faurisson is going to do that for free? I mean his books are hardly making him any money. Of course they are being paid.

So are you going to back up what you claimed like you've been asked already?

Attending a conference is not a sponsorship. You do not prove that Iran has paid Robert Faurisson. However I can prove that 3 Jews almost killed him 20 years ago in Vichy and that they got away with it.
The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.
The real racists are the people who say that the life of a Jew is worth more than the life of a non Jew.
Also the numbers are important as you can go to jail in some countries if you say that less than 6 million Jews died during WWII.

humanji

TMoreno wrote: »

Attending a conference is not a sponsorship. You do not prove that Iran has paid Robert Faurisson. However I can prove that 3 Jews almost killed him 20 years ago in Vichy and that they got away with it.
The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.
The real racists are the people who say that the life of a Jew is worth more than the life of a non Jew.
Also the numbers are important as you can go to jail in some countries if you say that less than 6 million Jews died during WWII.

Out of curiosity, what's the hoax part?

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.

By question you mean DENY right? :rolleyes:

Kevin!

The video on Auschwitz is very irritating due to many inconsistency's in the story and the biased view of the narrator.

Being at Auschwitz previously, many of the exhibitions he visited have been left out of the video - for example he shows the shoes and hair in the exhibit and says that there are valid reasons, such as it is known that there heads were shaved due to diseases and the shoes were taken upon entry and a uniform was issued.
What he left out was, there was MANY other possessions confiscated that were not nesessery such as childrens toys and hair combs which there is simply no excuse. (this is not the only example, there is plenty of exhibits with confiscated material that has no legitimate explanation)


Also, he shows off Auschwitz I - and says that it's a great place due to there being a pool and event rooms, but Auschwitz I was always crafted to look spectacular for propaganda, only few lived there and the majority were housed at Auschwitz II - the most disgusting and vile place I have ever been to in my life.

In the second video, he also goes on about how the walls were knocked in the crematorium and there was previously bathrooms and other facilities there with no factual evidence. It is perfectly plausible that they were previously toilets and after the introduction of gas killing methods it was transformed into a chamber. He questions a confused tour guide who is clearly sick of his nonsense about it and she obviously due to lack of knowledge denies that there was previously anything there. He then goes on a massive rant about how the story is inconsistent and that it is a massive coverup when he has merely asked the opinion of a tour guide which means absolutely zilch.


I'll follow up this post later on with the other two of his videos (If I can bare to watch them) - and apologies if this post is slightly asque it's my first one in the conspiracy theory section and I'm only 15.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi. WHY WERE THE ALL THE MEMBERS NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS??? That's not conference that's a rally...

Don't know where you get your information (MSM disinfo at a guess) from but it is all almost completely wrong.

1. Michael Collins Piper WAS NOT there.
2. Michael Collins Piper DOESN'T deny the holocaust
3. ALL THE MEMBERS WEREN'T NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS.
4. Neuterei Karta a group of Orthodox Jews were even there

For those who took time to bypass the media blizzard of disinformation, several things about our trip should have been clear. Our position as stated throughout the conference was explicit and free of any ambiguity. We affirmed the reality of the mass murder of Jews during the Second World War. And we were not the only speakers there who did so. But (also of enormous significance) we told those assembled that the reality of the Holocaust should not be used as a pretext to strip the Palestinian people, either as individuals or collectively, of their property and land.

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20070402IranWhycfm.cfm

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Don't know where you get your information (MSM disinfo at a guess) from but it is all almost completely wrong.

1. Michael Collins Piper WAS NOT there.
2. Michael Collins Piper DOESN'T deny the holocaust
3. ALL THE MEMBERS WEREN'T NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS.
4. Neuterei Karta a group of Orthodox Jews were even there


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20070402IranWhycfm.cfm

Token Jews..
Neturei Karta were there because like Iran they want to see the disintegration of the Israeli State and it's Government. Iran is one of the few places where that is the official line. My question is why were they there at all? being Jewish hardly makes you a history expert. Did they have any actual input into the discussions within an historical reference or were they just "Token Jews".

Fair enough if you say Piper wasn't there, his books were certainly there. However, in Collins playing the "freedom of speech card" he is joining the hoards of anti-semites and white supremacists who are re-branding themselves as "alternative" and whose policies are showing up in places like this with increasing frequency.

Duiske

meglome wrote: »

The real problem is many if not the majority of people and sites questioning the numbers are indeed anti-Semitic

True. But you would agree that there are people with legitimate questions, and they should be allowed to ask these questions ?

Example. There is a talk show about the holocaust, and included in the panel are revisionists, survivors and a holocaust historian. A women (she was German, not Jewish) calls in and emotionally describes being in Dachau camp, being personnally picked out by Josef Mengele for experiments and says that she actually saw the infamous soap and lampshades.
You may despise the motives of the person doing the voice-over in the video, but the points he makes here are verifable facts.

(10 seconds into video, woman phones into show)
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/donahue_d.html



The holocaust historian then rounded on the revisionst, saying that this women was proof of what had happened.

The fact is this woman was, for whatever reason, mistaken in her recollection.

Josef Mengele never worked at Dachau. He was at Auschwitz.
The "human soap" story is now regarded as a myth.
The "human skin lampshade" has a bit more credence,but again, is a story related to Auschwitz and a barbaric cnut called Lisa Koch, the camp commanders wife.

It is the unquestioning acceptance of stories like these that gives the revisionists cause to question the entire story. It feeds their "lies and conspiracy" opinions.

Surely it would be better to get to the truth of the matter, instead of just implying that people who question survivors are holocaust deniers.

Meglone is most likely right and we will never get the full story. All we can hope for is truthful accounts, and if accounts from either revisionists, historians or even survivors are proved not to be truthful, it should be acceptable that they are exposed as such.

edit : In case people read into this that i am something of a denier, My own view is that yes, the holocaust happened. Yes, it was pre-planned. The numbers of Jewish murdered ? I don't know, but from what I've read on the subject I'd guess at around 5 million.

studiorat

Duiske wrote: »

True. But you would agree that there are people with legitimate questions, and they should be allowed to ask these questions ?

They aren't asking questions, they are using certain unanswered questions as evidence. Is "The Holocaust was made up so as to create an excuse for the inception of the state of Israel" a legitimate hypothesis? for instance...

People question the holocaust every day in research. Revisionists are a different animal completely. They are denying it happened at all...

The original 6 million was an estimate from the Neuremberg trials from Rudolph Hess. This is generally accepted as an over estimation, food for the revisionists. It's from reports Hess gave to either Himmler or Goering afaik.

However recent excavations of mass graves in the Ukraine and Russia's western borders have uncovered nearly 1.5 million victims. Aside from the victims who the Russians killed themselves and blamed on the Nazi's, New research could actually push the total over the original 6 million estimation. Using modern forensic methods developed through the studies of genocides since WW11 and witness testimony. It would seem that as the Nazi's moved through Russia they wiped out thousands as they ran through the country side.

Mahatma coat

Yeah, the EinsatzGruppen Killed THOUSANDS, Tens of Tousands even as they swept east, bt somewhere along the way that figure got some extra digits and became millions, and that figure became the official figure, eventho it is accepted by most scholars that its based on unsound calculations.

The magical figure of 6 Million is apparently Just the Jews, what about the Slavs and the Roma and the Homosexuals, they dont Count??????

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The magical figure of 6 Million is apparently Just the Jews, what about the Slavs and the Roma and the Homosexuals, they dont Count??????

Of course they do MC.
Real historians talk about 6 million Jews and about 5.5 million other people who where killed.
The reason Jews are talked about separately is because they are the largest single group.
If you want a break down of the real figures, there is plenty of honest, non-bigoted sources you should try.

But I think you were trying for a lame attempt pretend that actual researchers where somehow as bigoted as the people you believe, rather than asking a proper question

Faith+1

I do agree that the numbers are exagerated but to claim it never happened is taking the piss!

King Mob

King Mob wrote: »

Of course they do MC.
Real historians talk about 6 million Jews and about 5.5 million other people who where killed.
The reason Jews are talked about separately is because they are the largest single group.
If you want a break down of the real figures, there is plenty of honest, non-bigoted sources you should try.

So thats 11.5 million people killed, in what, six years?, in the extermination sections of how many concentration/death camps..

i looked some of them up..

BERGEN-BELSEN, Nazi concentration camp near Hanover, Germany. It was established in July 1943 as an Aufenthaltslager ("transit camp") in part of a prisoner-of-war camp, Stalag 311, and intended for prisoners whom the German government wished to exchange for Germans in allied territory.

DACHAU, town near Munich, Bavaria, where the nearby concentration camp was established on March 10, 1933. It was the first of the *SS-organized concentration camps and became the model and training ground for all other camps when they were taken over by the SS in April 1933. The Dachau camp was established within 40 days of Hitler's ascent to power.

From the first, Dachau was used to incarcerate "enemies of the regime," trade unionists, and political opponents. The Nazis used Dachau as an execution site for the SA Storm Troopers caught in the 1934 purge. Later gypsies, German – and after 1938 Austrian – male homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned there. As the Germans invaded countries, Dachau continued to serve a political function as political opponents were imprisoned there. The Jews who first came to Dachau were incarcerated for their opposition to the regime, not because they were Jewish. In fact, Jews were a distinct minority of the prisoners at Dachau though their percentage in the general population varied with the general conditions of Jews under the Third Reich. After the Anschluss (annexation) in March 1938, thousands of Austrian Jews were sent to Dachau. Eleven thousand were sent there from Germany and Austria in the wake of *Kristallnacht but nearly all of them were released if they could leave the country. No Jews were released, however, after the outbreak of World War II. Late in the war, the Jewish population again increased when Dachau received Jews on the death marches. The exact number of those who passed through Dachau is unknown. In the main camp 160,000 prisoners were registered on the files and about 90,000 in the camp's branches; but, during the last several days of the camp's existence, many transports of prisoners arrived which were not registered in the file. Some inmates remained in Dachau or one of its branches; others were sent further in "death transports"; most were murdered or died from starvation. Of the more than 200,000 prisoners at Dachau, at least 32,000 died of starvation and disease, many after the typhus epidemic that broke out during the extreme overcrowding in the winter of 1945.

I was going to go on..but after looking at some of the numbers that are claimed to have gone through some of the concentration camps..there's no point..Between 1940 and 1945, ~95000 people went through the Neuengamme camp..these numbers are from the jewish virtual library..

People forget too, that we're looking at this through the lense of 65 years of western(english and american...the winners) propoganda..the numbers only started appearing in the 50's..

meglome

Deleted User wrote: »

So thats 11.5 million people killed, in what, six years?, in the extermination sections of how many concentration/death camps..

i looked some of them up..

Why didn't you look up the biggest camp Auschwitz?

Mahatma coat

Thats where the numbers really start to get Iffy, its been revised from 4 to 1.something million, can you not see the inconsisntincies in the Story???

TMoreno

humanji wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's the hoax part?

The frauds are:
6 millions Jews died during WW2
Gas Chambers were used to kill Jews
Hitler ordered to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

This is the Jewish trinity that we have to believe. If you question any of those claims in Europe, you go to jail. It's not a historical event anymore, it's a religion:mad:.

Yitzhak Rabin

TMoreno wrote: »

The frauds are:
6 millions Jews died during WW2
Gas Chambers were used to kill Jews
Hitler ordered to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

This is the Jewish trinity that we have to believe. If you question any of those claims in Europe, you go to jail. It's not a historical event anymore, it's a religion:mad:.

What do you believe happened?

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

So thats 11.5 million people killed, in what, six years?, in the extermination sections of how many concentration/death camps..

i looked some of them up..

FFS. What's the pointing in debate with you if you don't know the slightest thing about the position you're arguing against.

Seriously, stop reading bull**** from cranks with an agenda and take an hour to read what actual historians get the real number.
Here's a hint, it's a bit more complicated than the stupid dichotomy you've got going, either it being all from death camps or an evil Jewish conspiracy.

Deleted User wrote: »

People forget too, that we're looking at this through the lense of 65 years of western(english and american...the winners) propoganda..

Don't tell anyone, but Germany's in the west too.
Also the "east" is not exactly the bastion of truth.

Deleted User wrote: »

the numbers only started appearing in the 50's..

Yea, because it takes some time to do proper reseach and even then it takes even more time to get more accurate ones.

Thats where the numbers really start to get Iffy, its been revised from 4 to 1.something million, can you not see the inconsisntincies in the Story???

And then you get bull**** like this where things are twisted and taken out of context to suit agendas.
The 4 million figure for deaths at Auschwitz comes from a plaque at the site placed there by the Russians (so much for western propaganda :rolleyes:).
This was a very inaccurate and early estimate, that no historian has ever taken as accurate and has never ever been included in the famous 6 million figure. It has since been refined by real historians doing honest research to provide a lower, more accurate number, yet somehow these people weren't topped by the Jewish Mafia... weird that.

Ellian

As per the Hitchens lecture section I pasted Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Memorial Museum puts the total number of Jews murdered at 4.5 million. But while they might agree that the 6 million number is not verifiable, it simply does not extend to mean that there was not an attempted genocide of Jews in Europe under the Nazis.

--Kaiser--

TMoreno wrote: »

The frauds are:
6 millions Jews died during WW2
Gas Chambers were used to kill Jews
Hitler ordered to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

This is the Jewish trinity that we have to believe. If you question any of those claims in Europe, you go to jail. It's not a historical event anymore, it's a religion:mad:.

Because less than a hundred years ago a supposedly advanced government perpetrated a mass, industrialised, cold-blooded genocide and the world must not be allowed to forget it let alone deny it happened.

This is different to conspiracies about JFK, or even about 9/11 (no one's pretending that didn't happen), this is dangerous misinformation which should not be allowed to stand. What difference does it make whether it was 4 million jews or 6 million? Is the fact that it happened not terrifying enough?

TMoreno

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Because less than a hundred years ago a supposedly advanced government perpetrated a mass, industrialised, cold-blooded genocide and the world must not be allowed to forget it let alone deny it happened.

This is different to conspiracies about JFK, or even about 9/11 (no one's pretending that didn't happen), this is dangerous misinformation which should not be allowed to stand. What difference does it make whether it was 4 million jews or 6 million? Is the fact that it happened not terrifying enough?

When you talk about "a supposedly advanced government who perpetrated a mass, industrialized, cold-blooded genocide", you refer to the killing of million of civilians by the communist regimes of the USSR and China, or the extermination of the Native Americans, the bombing of German cities during WWII, the launch of atomic bombs against Hiroshima and Nagazaki, the Korean War, the Vietnam war, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US government.

--Kaiser--

TMoreno wrote: »

When you talk about "a supposedly advanced government who perpetrated a mass, industrialized, cold-blooded genocide", you refer to the killing of million of civilians by the communist regimes of the USSR and China, or the extermination of the Native Americans, the bombing of German cities during WWII, the launch of atomic bombs against Hiroshima and Nagazaki, the Korean War, the Vietnam war, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US government.

If you have a point there somewhere I fail to see it

humanji

TMoreno wrote: »

The frauds are:
6 millions Jews died during WW2

Do you think any Jews died during the war?

TMoreno wrote: »

Gas Chambers were used to kill Jews

Arguing the numbers, I can understand. But what's your argument against this?

TMoreno wrote: »

Hitler ordered to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

His army just decided to act without him?

TMoreno wrote: »

This is the Jewish trinity that we have to believe. If you question any of those claims in Europe, you go to jail. It's not a historical event anymore, it's a religion:mad:.

You're questioning them. Are you in jail?

TMoreno wrote: »

When you talk about "a supposedly advanced government who perpetrated a mass, industrialized, cold-blooded genocide", you refer to the killing of million of civilians by the communist regimes of the USSR and China, or the extermination of the Native Americans, the bombing of German cities during WWII, the launch of atomic bombs against Hiroshima and Nagazaki, the Korean War, the Vietnam war, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US government.

Giving the topic, who do what do you think he's refering to? And also, if all those things could happen, how come the Germans could never perpetrate such an act?

TMoreno

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

If you have a point there somewhere I fail to see it

My point is that those who killed million of innocent people should shut their mouth and stop lecture other people about human rights.

--Kaiser--

TMoreno wrote: »

My point is that those who killed million of innocent people should shut their mouth and stop lecture other people about human rights.

What are you on about, seriously? Who are these individuals who killed millions and where are they lecturing? I thought this thread was about holocaust denial?