attempt number 2. the holocaust what exactly happened.

smegmar

I was watching some of the videos on this site and along with the linked and mentioned documents made me question the exact events of the holocaust.
To clarify I am not denying that many people were gassed and killed but rather the exact totals and cause of those deaths.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

I politely ask that everyone please look at some of the material before posting it this thread.

gaytony

The holocaust did happen , but I think that if people want to question what happened and how , they should be allowed to. I think it's ridiculous that people can get locked up for an opinion. And I also think it's ridiculous that irish schools devote huge amounts of time discussing the holocaust during histroy classes and minimal time discussing the English version of the Irish potato Famine.

Lone Stone

Its not a subject i have ever looked into but i also think its stupid the way the media jumps on someone the moment they raise the subject you never once see them ask why do you think this ,what evidence you have ,where did you get this evidence etc

I mean we know propaganda and lie's are told all the time by governments in wartime's (example now the terror threat statement by the us to cover up the excessive drone attacks in afganistan) i really dont see it being that far a stretch for them to exaggerate the holocaust. The allies did after all drop leaflets into nazi occupied towns saying hitler shagged dead people. They hired people like Robert Crumb to do propaganda posters etc in ww2 i wouldnt find it unbelievable if it was true.

Yitzhak Rabin

smegmar wrote: »

I was watching some of the videos on this site and along with the linked and mentioned documents made me question the exact events of the holocaust.
To clarify I am not denying that many people were gassed and killed but rather the exact totals and cause of those deaths.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

I politely ask that everyone please look at some of the material before posting it this thread.

Like I asked at the end of the other thread, can you put forward the main thrust of the argument.

Posting a link to a site/video generally won't get any discussion going. We have a link sticky for that.

sligopark

Of course the nazis perpetrated a holocaust of jews, russians, poles, romanys, catholics, homosexuals, and anyone else not aligned with aryan values...

the problem comes with numbers and the fact that zionists (not jews) use it to validate their establishment of a homeland, nuclear threat and prison camp situations around displaced palestinians ...

and so with it come those to would like to negate this validation by disputing the holocaust both in entirety and in the numbers claimed.

muddying the waters further is the fact that all scientific advancements achieved by the nazis including observations of the human condition and eugenics were embraced post war by those who fought their tyranny and encapsulated into their programs not least of which was the NASA space program

noxqs

Historical facts are historical facts.

Whatever these facts are used for politically does not change the facts. That is an entirely different debate altogether, and it is in very bad taste to deny holocaust or make it smaller than it was. I assure you that there are many historians working on this subject and any proof counter to the current history would be a major scoop for any academic in the field and it would be instantly published and accepted if it was well substantiated by evidence.

And while it is a common myth that Nazi and Japanese medical science was useful post-war this is not true at all. Some was useful but alot of it was experiments with poor scientific value and basis. And the results frequently biased.

Edit: Watched a few of the videos. And oh my lord, you'd have to be an idiot to believe in anything they say. Its full of logical fallacies. Ive seen more convincing videos made by the creationism movement, and they werent very convincing at all.

Edit2: Watched the denial video that diesel engines produce carbon monoxide. And just 3 google searches found tons and tons of evidence that diesel engines under load, produce alot of carbon monoxide while the video makes it sound like this is not true. Also disregarding that carbon monoxide is not the only toxin, the exhaust also displaces oxygen and suffocates the victims as well. This is hardly rocket surgery.

Ellian

Chris Hitchens made a good point in his Daniel Pearl Memorial lecture.

"...
Okay, is questioning the Holocaust anti-Semitic? You see, I’m going to play for high stakes here. Not necessarily. Yes, if it denies that there was a plan, that there was a design, that there was a clearly evolved intention traceable to the first publication of Mein Kampf for the erasure of European Jewry. To deny that is certainly to exhibit toxic anti-Semitism, but there are many, many arguments about the numbers, about the locations. Yad Vashem, for example, the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, says four and a half million—most people say six. Good for Yad Vashem for going on the low side. When we’ve dug up all the graves—because they haven’t all been found yet—in Belarus, in parts of Yugoslavia recently some were found, and elsewhere, the figure may be much larger than we can bear to think. But it’s a responsibility. We have to act as if everyone who perished in that was a precious person. It’s a responsibility not to reduce it to propaganda, so be prepared to debate on it with people who say, well, it’s not true. It isn’t true that Jews were ever made into soap. Obviously the Nazis weren’t going to wash their hands in Jew. It’s a fabrication by Stalin’s antifascist Jewish community. We should drop it and we should admit that there’s propaganda involved here. Like the Armenian people, who regularly debate with Turkish historians who deny what happened with their people. They show great dignity. They come back again with their historians to the fray. They say we will have this out; we will not have this fetishized or propagandized—we have a duty to historical truth. So I don’t believe that there should be any censorship or any intimidation of anyone, revisionist or even denier, who wants to bring forth any evidence. What do we think we lack? The confidence to win this argument? No. We can’t have that said. "

sligopark

noxqs wrote: »

or make it smaller than it was.

how do you know the numbers - did it come direct from IBM or were they published by the victors and zionists?

noxqs wrote: »

And while it is a common myth that Nazi and Japanese medical science was useful post-war this is not true at all.

don't know whether to laugh aloud or weep at this statement

Ellian wrote: »

Chris Hitchens made a good point in his Daniel Pearl Memorial lecture.

"...
Okay, is questioning the Holocaust anti-Semitic? You see, I’m going to play for high stakes here. Not necessarily. Yes, if it denies that there was a plan, that there was a design, that there was a clearly evolved intention traceable to the first publication of Mein Kampf for the erasure of European Jewry. To deny that is certainly to exhibit toxic anti-Semitism, but there are many, many arguments about the numbers, about the locations.

fully agreed - the holocaust occurred and was planned (albeit not originally to include the other minority groups) but the numbers... now thats a different thing - was it 4 million, 6 million or 7 million.

Here is one to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - would it have been better if it were 12 million or more - would it have removed the whole threat to world peace that the creation of the zionist (not jew) state and its nuclear hold over the middle east region has brought about today?

thebullkf

sligopark wrote: »

how do you know the numbers - did it come direct from IBM or were they published by the victors and zionists?




don't know whether to laugh aloud or weep at this statement




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fully agreed - the holocaust occurred and was planned (albeit not originally to include the other minority groups) but the numbers... now thats a different thing - was it 4 million, 6 million or 7 million.

Here is one to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - would it have been better if it were 12 million or more - would it have removed the whole threat to world peace that the creation of the zionist (not jew) state and its nuclear hold over the middle east region has brought about today?

BIG statement there.....

Im reminded of a video ive seen recently, where some old dude, who lived through the war, was saying that before the war there were only 5 million jews in Europe, and after it there were 4.5 million..putting the number killed at ~500k..ive looked for it several times since but cant find it..

What rate were they being killed at though?..say 5 million over 4 years?..so 1.25 million per year..thats over four thousand people per day..

sligopark

Deleted User wrote: »

What rate were they being killed at though?..say 5 million over 4 years?..so 1.25 million per year..thats over four thousand people per day..

good point and valid too - how many prison camp ovens (live human cremators) were there?

although I don't think the number was 0.5 million (or close) and were there records before and after of numbers and how would this old guy know really?

Anyone ready to take on the BIG statement/question (without hatred)?

Dave!

OP in 1933 the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million. By 1950, their population was down to about 3.5 million.

Simple question: where did they go?

I'll also repost this debate for those who are interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=985537394376971987

Michael Shermer vs some holocaust denier

sligopark

Dave! wrote: »

OP in 1933 the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million. By 1950, their population was down to about 3.5 million.

Simple question: where did they go?

Potato heaven with the 8 million Irish holocaust victims ...

seriously though this is a figure of 6 million - where did you get the figures Dave?


IBM were the company contracted by the Nazis to control the numbers as they were compiled - what was their final tally of oven entered humans?

Mahatma coat

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

And as we all know anyone who dares question the conspiracy theory or holds up claims to a basic standard must be trying to suppress the theory... :rolleyes:

Yitzhak Rabin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

While there is a taboo on discussing or questioning the holocaust, the reason is not, some sinister plot for the Jewish people to achieve some sort of monopoly on suffering. Its because, the people who question it, are generally motivated by something other than a quest for the truth, namely anti-semitism.

Its also because if someone claims the holocaust didn't happen, or only happened on a very small scale, then that claim is inherently anti-semitic, as it relies on the premise that all of the holocaust survivors are liars, and collaborating together in some Jewish plot, which is anti-semitic.

The 6 million number is not unquestionable. Do you think that it would be any less of an atrocity if it was actually 5 million, or 4 million? Its just that the vast amount of revisionists come to their conclusion first, and then go and try and find anomolies that poke holes in the concensus. That is not research, its the same tactics used by creationists and global warming deniers.

and seriously? You think no one discusses Rwanda?

TMoreno

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

AudreyHepburn

I admit to not watching those videos but I have seen and heard other arguments for the Holocaust being a lie and to be honest to me it's all too ridiculous to even warrent a look.

I was called out on another thread for saying holocaust denial is nothing but anti-semitic rubbish but I don't see any other reason why anyone would want to deny or make less of what happened.

Yitzhak Rabin

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Care to back up any of those contentious claims?

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Faurisson, who is currently being pay-rolled by Iran! :rolleyes:

RGDATA!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

you're being sarcastic obviously but maybe you can be clearer for the purpose of discussion -whose mouth are you putting these words into?

Penn

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Holohoax? Isn't that on everyday on Channel 4?

gbee

It's pretty much accepted by scholars that the holocaust has been exaggerated to suit certain political agenda.

Figures suggest that the most vocal group in the holocaust were also the minority of those who suffered during it.

It also was not obviously Hitler's commands and he may not in fact have even asked for it. In some programmes on the subject, we hear written documentation to Hitler from camp commanders explaining how they cannot kill the requested amounts of people because they have no, wood, poison, slaves for the work and as importantly, no trains.

They do not receive a reply from Hitler which is at odds with what we know about the man. He'd have been expected to have flown into a rage, sacked the camp commanders and demanded their presence in person to explain how they failed his orders. It did not happen.

But it did happen to one man who could have won the war, Rommel, was chastised and lost his command because he wanted stupid things like more petrol to run his tanks and a handful of fighters in his African campaign for instance, Hitler's files are full of these bad decisions, decisions which ultimately gave the allies the upper hand, yet when it comes to what was said to be his personal pride & joy, the extermination of undesirables, he is found lacking, which raised the suspicion that another German officer was the father of the holocaust.

There are other disturbing implications when one examines the allies air operations, and the late 'discovery' of the camps in photos revealed only after the war, yet we have documents that suggest that these camps were to be bombed, as the allies knew what was going, long before the American armies liberated them on the ground.

The implications spread their tentacles in many directions, not least the proposition of having a weaker Russia after the war, as there was a suspicion that the US would continue to invade and occupy a large swath of the Balkins and sieze all the coal and oil ~

After the war it became obvious that annexing the Russian seized lands would be futile so the playing field turned to other oil balancing areas, the Middle East.

The events of the holocaust were played mightily and sold to a mostly sympathetic world.

Vourney

This whole situation is rather shocking to me. Do people thing that it would be appropriate to imprison a British historian who questions aspects of the Irish famine. Being Irish American I'm sure influences my attitudes, as in taking free speech as a given. Personally, my family stayed in Ireland during the famine, and I know a few bits and pieces of information that tell me how bad it was on a personal level, in additional to historial knowledge. But even still, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to give away our right to an open debate on historial events free from criminalization.

meglome

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Holohoax? Isn't that on everyday on Channel 4?

I laughed anyway.

gbee wrote: »

It's pretty much accepted by scholars that the holocaust has been exaggerated to suit certain political agenda.

Maybe you'd care to link us to these scholars?

Vourney wrote: »

This whole situation is rather shocking to me. Do people thing that it would be appropriate to imprison a British historian who questions aspects of the Irish famine. Being Irish American I'm sure influences my attitudes, as in taking free speech as a given. Personally, my family stayed in Ireland during the famine, and I know a few bits and pieces of information that tell me how bad it was on a personal level, in additional to historial knowledge. But even still, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to give away our right to an open debate on historial events free from criminalization.

The issue is not discussing it but denying it happened. But is a ton of evidence that it happened, the Germans themselves kept detailed records. Was it 4 million, 5 million, 6 million... I'm not sure that's terribly important it was a horrific and unimaginable thing to carry out no matter.

K-9

Seeing as this is the CT Forum, would it be a stretch to say, that of course no written documentation showing Hitler replying exists?

It was destroyed obviously. For a forum that is generally suspicious of Governments, the cover up makes perfect sense, a 9/11 type cover up.

If the war had turned out differently, maybe the CT would be posters saying there was a Holocaust, despite official denial.

Just ignore the question of whether we'd have the free speech we have now for a sec!

Mahatma coat

yekahs wrote: »

While there is a taboo on discussing or questioning the holocaust, the reason is not, some sinister plot for the Jewish people to achieve some sort of monopoly on suffering. Its because, the people who question it, are generally motivated by something other than a quest for the truth, namely anti-semitism.

See there ya Go, I must be an antiSemite because I ask questions, No other explanation for it, would it have something to do with the Massive inconsistinies in the official story, and a desire to Know for certain how many people were killed, what was the beakdown of Nationalities/Groups

Its also because if someone claims the holocaust didn't happen, or only happened on a very small scale, then that claim is inherently anti-semitic, as it relies on the premise that all of the holocaust survivors are liars, and collaborating together in some Jewish plot, which is anti-semitic.

Most of the 'Holocaust Survivors' are Jews who Fled before the Holocaust, the Fact that people Survived the 'Death Camps' at all is suspicious in my book, and hey these individuals may well have been ed the same line of Bull that we have, it just sounded more convincing from them.

The 6 million number is not unquestionable. Do you think that it would be any less of an atrocity if it was actually 5 million, or 4 million? Its just that the vast amount of revisionists come to their conclusion first, and then go and try and find anomolies that poke holes in the concensus. That is not research, its the same tactics used by creationists and global warming deniers.

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Then theres the mounting evidence of Fakery inthe imidiate aftermath of the War, the Lck of 'Prussian Blue'on the walls of the Gas Chamgbers, the alleged chambers thatwere obviously not used for that purpose, the Lack of Mas Graves, or evidence of Mass burials at a few of the sites leads me to the conclusion that Somone is lying somewhere

and seriously? You think no one discusses Rwanda?

Whens the International Rwandan Holocaust Memorial Day??????

caseyann

gaytony wrote: »

The holocaust did happen , but I think that if people want to question what happened and how , they should be allowed to. I think it's ridiculous that people can get locked up for an opinion. And I also think it's ridiculous that irish schools devote huge amounts of time discussing the holocaust during histroy classes and minimal time discussing the English version of the Irish potato Famine.

That confused me.What version is there of the English version of the Irish potato famine.

TMoreno

studiorat wrote: »

Faurisson, who is currently being pay-rolled by Iran! :rolleyes:

Prove it!

Duiske

meglome wrote: »

I laughed anyway.



Maybe you'd care to link us to these scholars?



The issue is not discussing it but denying it happened. But is a ton of evidence that it happened, the Germans themselves kept detailed records. Was it 4 million, 5 million, 6 million... I'm not sure that's terribly important it was a horrific and unimaginable thing to carry out no matter.

But it seems that even discussing it these days can have you described as a jew hating holocaust denier. I get your point that if the number of dead was 4 million or 6 million it still makes it a horrific total, but what figure do these detailed german records come up with ? Do the detailed records actually give an estimate of numbers ?
I think if there was a new, serious look at this issue it would put to bed the issue once and for all. The vast majority of the revisionist claims have no basis in fact, but i thnk that exaggeration of the numbers involved, and the exaggerated claims by a few survivors, just spurs them on.

meglome

Duiske wrote: »

But it seems that even discussing it these days can have you described as a jew hating holocaust denier. I get your point that if the number of dead was 4 million or 6 million it still makes it a horrific total, but what figure do these detailed german records come up with ? Do the detailed records actually give an estimate of numbers ?

The real problem is many if not the majority of people and sites questioning the numbers are indeed anti-Semitic and so really devalue any argument they might have. And to be fair many really don't have much of an argument to begin with. There are enough well respected scholars who have researched this area for any right thinking person to accept that an awlful lot of Jews were killed and others too of course. Maybe we'll never know the numbers properly but many people out there won't accept it happened simply as it doesn't fit with their world view and their biases. Personally I'm not sure that I need to find out if it was 4 million or 6 million, it's just a depressing indictment of just how bad we as human beings can get.