attempt number 2. the holocaust what exactly happened.

smegmar

I was watching some of the videos on this site and along with the linked and mentioned documents made me question the exact events of the holocaust.
To clarify I am not denying that many people were gassed and killed but rather the exact totals and cause of those deaths.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

I politely ask that everyone please look at some of the material before posting it this thread.

gaytony

The holocaust did happen , but I think that if people want to question what happened and how , they should be allowed to. I think it's ridiculous that people can get locked up for an opinion. And I also think it's ridiculous that irish schools devote huge amounts of time discussing the holocaust during histroy classes and minimal time discussing the English version of the Irish potato Famine.

Lone Stone

Its not a subject i have ever looked into but i also think its stupid the way the media jumps on someone the moment they raise the subject you never once see them ask why do you think this ,what evidence you have ,where did you get this evidence etc

I mean we know propaganda and lie's are told all the time by governments in wartime's (example now the terror threat statement by the us to cover up the excessive drone attacks in afganistan) i really dont see it being that far a stretch for them to exaggerate the holocaust. The allies did after all drop leaflets into nazi occupied towns saying hitler shagged dead people. They hired people like Robert Crumb to do propaganda posters etc in ww2 i wouldnt find it unbelievable if it was true.

Yitzhak Rabin

smegmar wrote: »

I was watching some of the videos on this site and along with the linked and mentioned documents made me question the exact events of the holocaust.
To clarify I am not denying that many people were gassed and killed but rather the exact totals and cause of those deaths.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

I politely ask that everyone please look at some of the material before posting it this thread.

Like I asked at the end of the other thread, can you put forward the main thrust of the argument.

Posting a link to a site/video generally won't get any discussion going. We have a link sticky for that.

sligopark

Of course the nazis perpetrated a holocaust of jews, russians, poles, romanys, catholics, homosexuals, and anyone else not aligned with aryan values...

the problem comes with numbers and the fact that zionists (not jews) use it to validate their establishment of a homeland, nuclear threat and prison camp situations around displaced palestinians ...

and so with it come those to would like to negate this validation by disputing the holocaust both in entirety and in the numbers claimed.

muddying the waters further is the fact that all scientific advancements achieved by the nazis including observations of the human condition and eugenics were embraced post war by those who fought their tyranny and encapsulated into their programs not least of which was the NASA space program

noxqs

Historical facts are historical facts.

Whatever these facts are used for politically does not change the facts. That is an entirely different debate altogether, and it is in very bad taste to deny holocaust or make it smaller than it was. I assure you that there are many historians working on this subject and any proof counter to the current history would be a major scoop for any academic in the field and it would be instantly published and accepted if it was well substantiated by evidence.

And while it is a common myth that Nazi and Japanese medical science was useful post-war this is not true at all. Some was useful but alot of it was experiments with poor scientific value and basis. And the results frequently biased.

Edit: Watched a few of the videos. And oh my lord, you'd have to be an idiot to believe in anything they say. Its full of logical fallacies. Ive seen more convincing videos made by the creationism movement, and they werent very convincing at all.

Edit2: Watched the denial video that diesel engines produce carbon monoxide. And just 3 google searches found tons and tons of evidence that diesel engines under load, produce alot of carbon monoxide while the video makes it sound like this is not true. Also disregarding that carbon monoxide is not the only toxin, the exhaust also displaces oxygen and suffocates the victims as well. This is hardly rocket surgery.

Ellian

Chris Hitchens made a good point in his Daniel Pearl Memorial lecture.

"...
Okay, is questioning the Holocaust anti-Semitic? You see, I’m going to play for high stakes here. Not necessarily. Yes, if it denies that there was a plan, that there was a design, that there was a clearly evolved intention traceable to the first publication of Mein Kampf for the erasure of European Jewry. To deny that is certainly to exhibit toxic anti-Semitism, but there are many, many arguments about the numbers, about the locations. Yad Vashem, for example, the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, says four and a half million—most people say six. Good for Yad Vashem for going on the low side. When we’ve dug up all the graves—because they haven’t all been found yet—in Belarus, in parts of Yugoslavia recently some were found, and elsewhere, the figure may be much larger than we can bear to think. But it’s a responsibility. We have to act as if everyone who perished in that was a precious person. It’s a responsibility not to reduce it to propaganda, so be prepared to debate on it with people who say, well, it’s not true. It isn’t true that Jews were ever made into soap. Obviously the Nazis weren’t going to wash their hands in Jew. It’s a fabrication by Stalin’s antifascist Jewish community. We should drop it and we should admit that there’s propaganda involved here. Like the Armenian people, who regularly debate with Turkish historians who deny what happened with their people. They show great dignity. They come back again with their historians to the fray. They say we will have this out; we will not have this fetishized or propagandized—we have a duty to historical truth. So I don’t believe that there should be any censorship or any intimidation of anyone, revisionist or even denier, who wants to bring forth any evidence. What do we think we lack? The confidence to win this argument? No. We can’t have that said. "

sligopark

noxqs wrote: »

or make it smaller than it was.

how do you know the numbers - did it come direct from IBM or were they published by the victors and zionists?

noxqs wrote: »

And while it is a common myth that Nazi and Japanese medical science was useful post-war this is not true at all.

don't know whether to laugh aloud or weep at this statement

Ellian wrote: »

Chris Hitchens made a good point in his Daniel Pearl Memorial lecture.

"...
Okay, is questioning the Holocaust anti-Semitic? You see, I’m going to play for high stakes here. Not necessarily. Yes, if it denies that there was a plan, that there was a design, that there was a clearly evolved intention traceable to the first publication of Mein Kampf for the erasure of European Jewry. To deny that is certainly to exhibit toxic anti-Semitism, but there are many, many arguments about the numbers, about the locations.

fully agreed - the holocaust occurred and was planned (albeit not originally to include the other minority groups) but the numbers... now thats a different thing - was it 4 million, 6 million or 7 million.

Here is one to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - would it have been better if it were 12 million or more - would it have removed the whole threat to world peace that the creation of the zionist (not jew) state and its nuclear hold over the middle east region has brought about today?

thebullkf

sligopark wrote: »

how do you know the numbers - did it come direct from IBM or were they published by the victors and zionists?




don't know whether to laugh aloud or weep at this statement




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fully agreed - the holocaust occurred and was planned (albeit not originally to include the other minority groups) but the numbers... now thats a different thing - was it 4 million, 6 million or 7 million.

Here is one to throw the cat amongst the pigeons - would it have been better if it were 12 million or more - would it have removed the whole threat to world peace that the creation of the zionist (not jew) state and its nuclear hold over the middle east region has brought about today?

BIG statement there.....

Im reminded of a video ive seen recently, where some old dude, who lived through the war, was saying that before the war there were only 5 million jews in Europe, and after it there were 4.5 million..putting the number killed at ~500k..ive looked for it several times since but cant find it..

What rate were they being killed at though?..say 5 million over 4 years?..so 1.25 million per year..thats over four thousand people per day..

sligopark

Deleted User wrote: »

What rate were they being killed at though?..say 5 million over 4 years?..so 1.25 million per year..thats over four thousand people per day..

good point and valid too - how many prison camp ovens (live human cremators) were there?

although I don't think the number was 0.5 million (or close) and were there records before and after of numbers and how would this old guy know really?

Anyone ready to take on the BIG statement/question (without hatred)?

Dave!

OP in 1933 the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million. By 1950, their population was down to about 3.5 million.

Simple question: where did they go?

I'll also repost this debate for those who are interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=985537394376971987

Michael Shermer vs some holocaust denier

sligopark

Dave! wrote: »

OP in 1933 the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million. By 1950, their population was down to about 3.5 million.

Simple question: where did they go?

Potato heaven with the 8 million Irish holocaust victims ...

seriously though this is a figure of 6 million - where did you get the figures Dave?


IBM were the company contracted by the Nazis to control the numbers as they were compiled - what was their final tally of oven entered humans?

Mahatma coat

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

And as we all know anyone who dares question the conspiracy theory or holds up claims to a basic standard must be trying to suppress the theory... :rolleyes:

Yitzhak Rabin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

While there is a taboo on discussing or questioning the holocaust, the reason is not, some sinister plot for the Jewish people to achieve some sort of monopoly on suffering. Its because, the people who question it, are generally motivated by something other than a quest for the truth, namely anti-semitism.

Its also because if someone claims the holocaust didn't happen, or only happened on a very small scale, then that claim is inherently anti-semitic, as it relies on the premise that all of the holocaust survivors are liars, and collaborating together in some Jewish plot, which is anti-semitic.

The 6 million number is not unquestionable. Do you think that it would be any less of an atrocity if it was actually 5 million, or 4 million? Its just that the vast amount of revisionists come to their conclusion first, and then go and try and find anomolies that poke holes in the concensus. That is not research, its the same tactics used by creationists and global warming deniers.

and seriously? You think no one discusses Rwanda?

TMoreno

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Holocaust is an 'ABSOLUTE TRUTH' this means thay you must not Question it, or even hint at disbelief of the Absolute number of 6 Million, All Reports are Absolutley Factually accurate, even the ones that Contradict each other, There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

AudreyHepburn

I admit to not watching those videos but I have seen and heard other arguments for the Holocaust being a lie and to be honest to me it's all too ridiculous to even warrent a look.

I was called out on another thread for saying holocaust denial is nothing but anti-semitic rubbish but I don't see any other reason why anyone would want to deny or make less of what happened.

Yitzhak Rabin

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Care to back up any of those contentious claims?

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Faurisson, who is currently being pay-rolled by Iran! :rolleyes:

RGDATA!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

There were NO Other peoples who Suffered as Much as the Jews, they are not to be considered, Anything else that may resemble a Holocaust, Armenia, Ireland Rwanda Hell Even the Holdomor are not to be discussed incase they remove some Legitimacy from Jewish claims to be the 'Most Persecuted Race in History'

anyclearer???

you're being sarcastic obviously but maybe you can be clearer for the purpose of discussion -whose mouth are you putting these words into?

Penn

TMoreno wrote: »

The Holohoax is a scam. The reference in the study of this fraud is Professor Robert Faurisson and because of that the Jewish mob tried to kill him several times.

Holohoax? Isn't that on everyday on Channel 4?

gbee

It's pretty much accepted by scholars that the holocaust has been exaggerated to suit certain political agenda.

Figures suggest that the most vocal group in the holocaust were also the minority of those who suffered during it.

It also was not obviously Hitler's commands and he may not in fact have even asked for it. In some programmes on the subject, we hear written documentation to Hitler from camp commanders explaining how they cannot kill the requested amounts of people because they have no, wood, poison, slaves for the work and as importantly, no trains.

They do not receive a reply from Hitler which is at odds with what we know about the man. He'd have been expected to have flown into a rage, sacked the camp commanders and demanded their presence in person to explain how they failed his orders. It did not happen.

But it did happen to one man who could have won the war, Rommel, was chastised and lost his command because he wanted stupid things like more petrol to run his tanks and a handful of fighters in his African campaign for instance, Hitler's files are full of these bad decisions, decisions which ultimately gave the allies the upper hand, yet when it comes to what was said to be his personal pride & joy, the extermination of undesirables, he is found lacking, which raised the suspicion that another German officer was the father of the holocaust.

There are other disturbing implications when one examines the allies air operations, and the late 'discovery' of the camps in photos revealed only after the war, yet we have documents that suggest that these camps were to be bombed, as the allies knew what was going, long before the American armies liberated them on the ground.

The implications spread their tentacles in many directions, not least the proposition of having a weaker Russia after the war, as there was a suspicion that the US would continue to invade and occupy a large swath of the Balkins and sieze all the coal and oil ~

After the war it became obvious that annexing the Russian seized lands would be futile so the playing field turned to other oil balancing areas, the Middle East.

The events of the holocaust were played mightily and sold to a mostly sympathetic world.

Vourney

This whole situation is rather shocking to me. Do people thing that it would be appropriate to imprison a British historian who questions aspects of the Irish famine. Being Irish American I'm sure influences my attitudes, as in taking free speech as a given. Personally, my family stayed in Ireland during the famine, and I know a few bits and pieces of information that tell me how bad it was on a personal level, in additional to historial knowledge. But even still, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to give away our right to an open debate on historial events free from criminalization.

meglome

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Holohoax? Isn't that on everyday on Channel 4?

I laughed anyway.

gbee wrote: »

It's pretty much accepted by scholars that the holocaust has been exaggerated to suit certain political agenda.

Maybe you'd care to link us to these scholars?

Vourney wrote: »

This whole situation is rather shocking to me. Do people thing that it would be appropriate to imprison a British historian who questions aspects of the Irish famine. Being Irish American I'm sure influences my attitudes, as in taking free speech as a given. Personally, my family stayed in Ireland during the famine, and I know a few bits and pieces of information that tell me how bad it was on a personal level, in additional to historial knowledge. But even still, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to give away our right to an open debate on historial events free from criminalization.

The issue is not discussing it but denying it happened. But is a ton of evidence that it happened, the Germans themselves kept detailed records. Was it 4 million, 5 million, 6 million... I'm not sure that's terribly important it was a horrific and unimaginable thing to carry out no matter.

K-9

Seeing as this is the CT Forum, would it be a stretch to say, that of course no written documentation showing Hitler replying exists?

It was destroyed obviously. For a forum that is generally suspicious of Governments, the cover up makes perfect sense, a 9/11 type cover up.

If the war had turned out differently, maybe the CT would be posters saying there was a Holocaust, despite official denial.

Just ignore the question of whether we'd have the free speech we have now for a sec!

Mahatma coat

yekahs wrote: »

While there is a taboo on discussing or questioning the holocaust, the reason is not, some sinister plot for the Jewish people to achieve some sort of monopoly on suffering. Its because, the people who question it, are generally motivated by something other than a quest for the truth, namely anti-semitism.

See there ya Go, I must be an antiSemite because I ask questions, No other explanation for it, would it have something to do with the Massive inconsistinies in the official story, and a desire to Know for certain how many people were killed, what was the beakdown of Nationalities/Groups

Its also because if someone claims the holocaust didn't happen, or only happened on a very small scale, then that claim is inherently anti-semitic, as it relies on the premise that all of the holocaust survivors are liars, and collaborating together in some Jewish plot, which is anti-semitic.

Most of the 'Holocaust Survivors' are Jews who Fled before the Holocaust, the Fact that people Survived the 'Death Camps' at all is suspicious in my book, and hey these individuals may well have been ed the same line of Bull that we have, it just sounded more convincing from them.

The 6 million number is not unquestionable. Do you think that it would be any less of an atrocity if it was actually 5 million, or 4 million? Its just that the vast amount of revisionists come to their conclusion first, and then go and try and find anomolies that poke holes in the concensus. That is not research, its the same tactics used by creationists and global warming deniers.

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Then theres the mounting evidence of Fakery inthe imidiate aftermath of the War, the Lck of 'Prussian Blue'on the walls of the Gas Chamgbers, the alleged chambers thatwere obviously not used for that purpose, the Lack of Mas Graves, or evidence of Mass burials at a few of the sites leads me to the conclusion that Somone is lying somewhere

and seriously? You think no one discusses Rwanda?

Whens the International Rwandan Holocaust Memorial Day??????

caseyann

gaytony wrote: »

The holocaust did happen , but I think that if people want to question what happened and how , they should be allowed to. I think it's ridiculous that people can get locked up for an opinion. And I also think it's ridiculous that irish schools devote huge amounts of time discussing the holocaust during histroy classes and minimal time discussing the English version of the Irish potato Famine.

That confused me.What version is there of the English version of the Irish potato famine.

TMoreno

studiorat wrote: »

Faurisson, who is currently being pay-rolled by Iran! :rolleyes:

Prove it!

Duiske

meglome wrote: »

I laughed anyway.



Maybe you'd care to link us to these scholars?



The issue is not discussing it but denying it happened. But is a ton of evidence that it happened, the Germans themselves kept detailed records. Was it 4 million, 5 million, 6 million... I'm not sure that's terribly important it was a horrific and unimaginable thing to carry out no matter.

But it seems that even discussing it these days can have you described as a jew hating holocaust denier. I get your point that if the number of dead was 4 million or 6 million it still makes it a horrific total, but what figure do these detailed german records come up with ? Do the detailed records actually give an estimate of numbers ?
I think if there was a new, serious look at this issue it would put to bed the issue once and for all. The vast majority of the revisionist claims have no basis in fact, but i thnk that exaggeration of the numbers involved, and the exaggerated claims by a few survivors, just spurs them on.

meglome

Duiske wrote: »

But it seems that even discussing it these days can have you described as a jew hating holocaust denier. I get your point that if the number of dead was 4 million or 6 million it still makes it a horrific total, but what figure do these detailed german records come up with ? Do the detailed records actually give an estimate of numbers ?

The real problem is many if not the majority of people and sites questioning the numbers are indeed anti-Semitic and so really devalue any argument they might have. And to be fair many really don't have much of an argument to begin with. There are enough well respected scholars who have researched this area for any right thinking person to accept that an awlful lot of Jews were killed and others too of course. Maybe we'll never know the numbers properly but many people out there won't accept it happened simply as it doesn't fit with their world view and their biases. Personally I'm not sure that I need to find out if it was 4 million or 6 million, it's just a depressing indictment of just how bad we as human beings can get.

Yitzhak Rabin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

See there ya Go, I must be an antiSemite because I ask questions, No other explanation for it,

I haven't a notion what your motivations are, I can't jump inside your head and hear your thoughts.

would it have something to do with the Massive inconsistinies in the official story, and a desire to Know for certain how many people were killed, what was the beakdown of Nationalities/Groups

That isn't research. Like I said earlier, its the same as what creationists do. They look at a huge body of evidence, ignore it, and then find small inconsistencies, harp on and on and on about them, as if it disproves the consensus. If anyone is foolish enough to engage with them, they will either refuse to accept the explanation for the anomaly, or move on to the next anomaly. Its an extremely frustrating process, and hence why you don't hear of too many credible historians even bothering to address the issue.

Most of the 'Holocaust Survivors' are Jews who Fled before the Holocaust, the Fact that people Survived the 'Death Camps' at all is suspicious in my book, and hey these individuals may well have been ed the same line of Bull that we have, it just sounded more convincing from them.

Why do you put holocaust survivors in inverted commas?

So its your contention, that the holocaust survivors are liars, thats what I was talking about, when I said Holocaust denialism relies on a deeply anti-semitic precept - i.e they made it all up. I sincerely hope you don't ever express those sentiments to an actual survivor, or their families.

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Then theres the mounting evidence of Fakery inthe imidiate aftermath of the War, the Lck of 'Prussian Blue'on the walls of the Gas Chamgbers, the alleged chambers thatwere obviously not used for that purpose, the Lack of Mas Graves, or evidence of Mass burials at a few of the sites leads me to the conclusion that Somone is lying somewhere

Rather than address each of those points, let me direct you to a set of 120 questions you may have, with the answers to those questions here.

Because, as I mentioned above, what will happen is, you will make a claim, like the Zyklon-B one, it will be addressed, you will then move on and say, where is Hitlers order??? This will then continue on and on and on. Its not something I am particularly interested in discussing, as I've been down that road too many times before.

Whens the International Rwandan Holocaust Memorial Day??????

7th of April.

BBC wrote:

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan called for a worldwide minute of silence at 1200 local time to mark International Day of Reflection on the Genocide in Rwanda.

Just type in 'remembers Rwanda', and you'll get a plethora of results of people acknowledging and solemnly remembering the Rwandan genocide.

thebullkf

^^awesome^^

profitius

I saw a documentary once about it. The guy making it researched it and showed plenty of evidence of lies being told and exposed many liars. So theres propaganda there alright.

I'm not an expert on it but it sickens me that people are not allowed to talk about it. They use the race card to stop people talking about it and that alone means they're covering something up. Its like bringing people to court if they questioned the amount of people who died in the Irish famine.

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

Prove it!

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi. WHY WERE THE ALL THE MEMBERS NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS??? That's not conference that's a rally...

You hardly think an ex-college lecturer like Faurisson is going to do that for free? I mean his books are hardly making him any money. Of course they are being paid.

So are you going to back up what you claimed like you've been asked already?

Let's get one thing straight here. These guys are not questioning the Holocaust. They are denying it outright.

So while the Holocaust should be examined and questioned in a scientific manner, these loons are scooting around looking for proof that it didn't happen. They are coming to the table with their minds already made up and looking to prove their hypothesis.

BTW. Anyone who would use the word holohoax is a prick in by book.

meglome

profitius wrote: »

I saw a documentary once about it. The guy making it researched it and showed plenty of evidence of lies being told and exposed many liars. So theres propaganda there alright.

I'm not an expert on it but it sickens me that people are not allowed to talk about it. They use the race card to stop people talking about it and that alone means they're covering something up. Its like bringing people to court if they questioned the amount of people who died in the Irish famine.

Sigh.. you can talk about it all you want. It just denying it happened is a crime in some countries. You can talk about how many died till the cows come home. It's a crime to deny it happened in Germany, the very country you'd assume would want to minimise their involvement in it. Why do you think that is?

studiorat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Bullsh!t, I came into this initially with the same indoctrinated history as you, but when I scratched the surface it wasnt just one or two anomolies, the 'Oficial' Story just dosent add up, it presupposes a lot of things and fudges over some Questions entirely.

Scratched the surface??? Official Story? Come on, you hardly expect us to believe that. You thought the Protocols of The Elders of Zion was factual ffs.

TMoreno

studiorat wrote: »

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi.

You hardly think an ex-college lecturer like Faurisson is going to do that for free? I mean his books are hardly making him any money. Of course they are being paid.

So are you going to back up what you claimed like you've been asked already?

Attending a conference is not a sponsorship. You do not prove that Iran has paid Robert Faurisson. However I can prove that 3 Jews almost killed him 20 years ago in Vichy and that they got away with it.
The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.
The real racists are the people who say that the life of a Jew is worth more than the life of a non Jew.
Also the numbers are important as you can go to jail in some countries if you say that less than 6 million Jews died during WWII.

humanji

TMoreno wrote: »

Attending a conference is not a sponsorship. You do not prove that Iran has paid Robert Faurisson. However I can prove that 3 Jews almost killed him 20 years ago in Vichy and that they got away with it.
The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.
The real racists are the people who say that the life of a Jew is worth more than the life of a non Jew.
Also the numbers are important as you can go to jail in some countries if you say that less than 6 million Jews died during WWII.

Out of curiosity, what's the hoax part?

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

The real heroes are the men and women who are in jail in Germany , in Austria and France because they dare to question the Holohoax.

By question you mean DENY right? :rolleyes:

Kevin!

The video on Auschwitz is very irritating due to many inconsistency's in the story and the biased view of the narrator.

Being at Auschwitz previously, many of the exhibitions he visited have been left out of the video - for example he shows the shoes and hair in the exhibit and says that there are valid reasons, such as it is known that there heads were shaved due to diseases and the shoes were taken upon entry and a uniform was issued.
What he left out was, there was MANY other possessions confiscated that were not nesessery such as childrens toys and hair combs which there is simply no excuse. (this is not the only example, there is plenty of exhibits with confiscated material that has no legitimate explanation)


Also, he shows off Auschwitz I - and says that it's a great place due to there being a pool and event rooms, but Auschwitz I was always crafted to look spectacular for propaganda, only few lived there and the majority were housed at Auschwitz II - the most disgusting and vile place I have ever been to in my life.

In the second video, he also goes on about how the walls were knocked in the crematorium and there was previously bathrooms and other facilities there with no factual evidence. It is perfectly plausible that they were previously toilets and after the introduction of gas killing methods it was transformed into a chamber. He questions a confused tour guide who is clearly sick of his nonsense about it and she obviously due to lack of knowledge denies that there was previously anything there. He then goes on a massive rant about how the story is inconsistent and that it is a massive coverup when he has merely asked the opinion of a tour guide which means absolutely zilch.


I'll follow up this post later on with the other two of his videos (If I can bare to watch them) - and apologies if this post is slightly asque it's my first one in the conspiracy theory section and I'm only 15.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

Iran sponsored the aptly named International Conference to Review the Global Version of the Holocaust. Faurisson being a head revisionist loon naturally was one of the star exhibits. Along with the likes of Michael Collins Piper, David Duke and and judging by your holohoax comment your hero Mohammed Hegazi. WHY WERE THE ALL THE MEMBERS NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS??? That's not conference that's a rally...

Don't know where you get your information (MSM disinfo at a guess) from but it is all almost completely wrong.

1. Michael Collins Piper WAS NOT there.
2. Michael Collins Piper DOESN'T deny the holocaust
3. ALL THE MEMBERS WEREN'T NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS.
4. Neuterei Karta a group of Orthodox Jews were even there

For those who took time to bypass the media blizzard of disinformation, several things about our trip should have been clear. Our position as stated throughout the conference was explicit and free of any ambiguity. We affirmed the reality of the mass murder of Jews during the Second World War. And we were not the only speakers there who did so. But (also of enormous significance) we told those assembled that the reality of the Holocaust should not be used as a pretext to strip the Palestinian people, either as individuals or collectively, of their property and land.

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20070402IranWhycfm.cfm

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Don't know where you get your information (MSM disinfo at a guess) from but it is all almost completely wrong.

1. Michael Collins Piper WAS NOT there.
2. Michael Collins Piper DOESN'T deny the holocaust
3. ALL THE MEMBERS WEREN'T NOTED HOLOCAUST DENIERS.
4. Neuterei Karta a group of Orthodox Jews were even there


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20070402IranWhycfm.cfm

Token Jews..
Neturei Karta were there because like Iran they want to see the disintegration of the Israeli State and it's Government. Iran is one of the few places where that is the official line. My question is why were they there at all? being Jewish hardly makes you a history expert. Did they have any actual input into the discussions within an historical reference or were they just "Token Jews".

Fair enough if you say Piper wasn't there, his books were certainly there. However, in Collins playing the "freedom of speech card" he is joining the hoards of anti-semites and white supremacists who are re-branding themselves as "alternative" and whose policies are showing up in places like this with increasing frequency.

Duiske

meglome wrote: »

The real problem is many if not the majority of people and sites questioning the numbers are indeed anti-Semitic

True. But you would agree that there are people with legitimate questions, and they should be allowed to ask these questions ?

Example. There is a talk show about the holocaust, and included in the panel are revisionists, survivors and a holocaust historian. A women (she was German, not Jewish) calls in and emotionally describes being in Dachau camp, being personnally picked out by Josef Mengele for experiments and says that she actually saw the infamous soap and lampshades.
You may despise the motives of the person doing the voice-over in the video, but the points he makes here are verifable facts.

(10 seconds into video, woman phones into show)
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/donahue_d.html



The holocaust historian then rounded on the revisionst, saying that this women was proof of what had happened.

The fact is this woman was, for whatever reason, mistaken in her recollection.

Josef Mengele never worked at Dachau. He was at Auschwitz.
The "human soap" story is now regarded as a myth.
The "human skin lampshade" has a bit more credence,but again, is a story related to Auschwitz and a barbaric cnut called Lisa Koch, the camp commanders wife.

It is the unquestioning acceptance of stories like these that gives the revisionists cause to question the entire story. It feeds their "lies and conspiracy" opinions.

Surely it would be better to get to the truth of the matter, instead of just implying that people who question survivors are holocaust deniers.

Meglone is most likely right and we will never get the full story. All we can hope for is truthful accounts, and if accounts from either revisionists, historians or even survivors are proved not to be truthful, it should be acceptable that they are exposed as such.

edit : In case people read into this that i am something of a denier, My own view is that yes, the holocaust happened. Yes, it was pre-planned. The numbers of Jewish murdered ? I don't know, but from what I've read on the subject I'd guess at around 5 million.

studiorat

Duiske wrote: »

True. But you would agree that there are people with legitimate questions, and they should be allowed to ask these questions ?

They aren't asking questions, they are using certain unanswered questions as evidence. Is "The Holocaust was made up so as to create an excuse for the inception of the state of Israel" a legitimate hypothesis? for instance...

People question the holocaust every day in research. Revisionists are a different animal completely. They are denying it happened at all...

The original 6 million was an estimate from the Neuremberg trials from Rudolph Hess. This is generally accepted as an over estimation, food for the revisionists. It's from reports Hess gave to either Himmler or Goering afaik.

However recent excavations of mass graves in the Ukraine and Russia's western borders have uncovered nearly 1.5 million victims. Aside from the victims who the Russians killed themselves and blamed on the Nazi's, New research could actually push the total over the original 6 million estimation. Using modern forensic methods developed through the studies of genocides since WW11 and witness testimony. It would seem that as the Nazi's moved through Russia they wiped out thousands as they ran through the country side.

Mahatma coat

Yeah, the EinsatzGruppen Killed THOUSANDS, Tens of Tousands even as they swept east, bt somewhere along the way that figure got some extra digits and became millions, and that figure became the official figure, eventho it is accepted by most scholars that its based on unsound calculations.

The magical figure of 6 Million is apparently Just the Jews, what about the Slavs and the Roma and the Homosexuals, they dont Count??????

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The magical figure of 6 Million is apparently Just the Jews, what about the Slavs and the Roma and the Homosexuals, they dont Count??????

Of course they do MC.
Real historians talk about 6 million Jews and about 5.5 million other people who where killed.
The reason Jews are talked about separately is because they are the largest single group.
If you want a break down of the real figures, there is plenty of honest, non-bigoted sources you should try.

But I think you were trying for a lame attempt pretend that actual researchers where somehow as bigoted as the people you believe, rather than asking a proper question

Faith+1

I do agree that the numbers are exagerated but to claim it never happened is taking the piss!

King Mob

King Mob wrote: »

Of course they do MC.
Real historians talk about 6 million Jews and about 5.5 million other people who where killed.
The reason Jews are talked about separately is because they are the largest single group.
If you want a break down of the real figures, there is plenty of honest, non-bigoted sources you should try.

So thats 11.5 million people killed, in what, six years?, in the extermination sections of how many concentration/death camps..

i looked some of them up..

BERGEN-BELSEN, Nazi concentration camp near Hanover, Germany. It was established in July 1943 as an Aufenthaltslager ("transit camp") in part of a prisoner-of-war camp, Stalag 311, and intended for prisoners whom the German government wished to exchange for Germans in allied territory.

DACHAU, town near Munich, Bavaria, where the nearby concentration camp was established on March 10, 1933. It was the first of the *SS-organized concentration camps and became the model and training ground for all other camps when they were taken over by the SS in April 1933. The Dachau camp was established within 40 days of Hitler's ascent to power.

From the first, Dachau was used to incarcerate "enemies of the regime," trade unionists, and political opponents. The Nazis used Dachau as an execution site for the SA Storm Troopers caught in the 1934 purge. Later gypsies, German – and after 1938 Austrian – male homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned there. As the Germans invaded countries, Dachau continued to serve a political function as political opponents were imprisoned there. The Jews who first came to Dachau were incarcerated for their opposition to the regime, not because they were Jewish. In fact, Jews were a distinct minority of the prisoners at Dachau though their percentage in the general population varied with the general conditions of Jews under the Third Reich. After the Anschluss (annexation) in March 1938, thousands of Austrian Jews were sent to Dachau. Eleven thousand were sent there from Germany and Austria in the wake of *Kristallnacht but nearly all of them were released if they could leave the country. No Jews were released, however, after the outbreak of World War II. Late in the war, the Jewish population again increased when Dachau received Jews on the death marches. The exact number of those who passed through Dachau is unknown. In the main camp 160,000 prisoners were registered on the files and about 90,000 in the camp's branches; but, during the last several days of the camp's existence, many transports of prisoners arrived which were not registered in the file. Some inmates remained in Dachau or one of its branches; others were sent further in "death transports"; most were murdered or died from starvation. Of the more than 200,000 prisoners at Dachau, at least 32,000 died of starvation and disease, many after the typhus epidemic that broke out during the extreme overcrowding in the winter of 1945.

I was going to go on..but after looking at some of the numbers that are claimed to have gone through some of the concentration camps..there's no point..Between 1940 and 1945, ~95000 people went through the Neuengamme camp..these numbers are from the jewish virtual library..

People forget too, that we're looking at this through the lense of 65 years of western(english and american...the winners) propoganda..the numbers only started appearing in the 50's..

meglome

Deleted User wrote: »

So thats 11.5 million people killed, in what, six years?, in the extermination sections of how many concentration/death camps..

i looked some of them up..

Why didn't you look up the biggest camp Auschwitz?

Mahatma coat

Thats where the numbers really start to get Iffy, its been revised from 4 to 1.something million, can you not see the inconsisntincies in the Story???