Patriarchal Oppression

Truley

seenitall wrote: »

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

It's hard to call the issue of abortion a gender equality issue as we can never know, and can only take a (very) wild guess as to what the laws would be like if men could get pregnant.

I don't think it's naive however to think that it seperate from patriarchy when so many women are against abortion. In fact I would wager a greater proportion of women are against it than men. Just look at any pro life demonstrations in your area or in the media.

Maguined

seenitall wrote: »

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

No offense taken, I don't know if i would agree with your evidence though, plenty of european countries are also heavily influenced by the christian church, Italy i would consider more patriarchal than Ireland and they have abortion, the same with many easter european countries and asia, these places would be more patriarchal in my opinion and have abortion so i do not view the pro-life as a gender equality issue but more a religious and moral interpretation of the definition of life and hence the definition of murder, would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

donfers

crayolastereo wrote: »

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

2. Abortion. My body is mine. I attach no value to a bundle of cells with no consciousness, and I resent being told I can't decide what gets to live in it. I resent being told I am held prisoner by my body's capabilities. What bothers me even more is idiots who go on about "Abortion is ok in case of rape/disease etc" either human life is inherently valuable or its not, frankly I don't think it is.

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

1. I know guys who feel they have to cross the road, walk in the opposite direction of where they want to go or walk slower than normal at night so as not to freak some lady at night. Basically these things only affect you as much as you let them. I think you should deal with your fear as it sounds quite unhealthy to me if you can't be alone with a guy without being in fear of being raped.

You say the victim is blamed more often than not, can you provide evidence as I simply don't believe that.

You say male on male rape is viewed as more serious, first time I've heard that, can you provide evidence as I simply don't believe that.

2. Many people don't view the foetus as a lump of cells, the differing interpretation of what constitutes life is the problem here....not everyone shares your view that human life has no value

3. Who views these women with kids as strange? Who views these women with careers as terrible people? Frankly I'd advise you to spend time with more open-minded people. I'd also suggest you acknowledge that society imposes expectations on all of us, for men to behave like men, women to behave like women and children to behave like children. There are pros and cons for men, women and children based on what society wants to construct us as, not just cons for women which is the only issue you highlight. I would say two two things here

a) don't let the opinions of idiots/society whores influence you too much-they are rarely worth listening to

b) it's not always best to rush to victimhood, often it can exacerbate the sense of weakness you look to avoid


4. Again your own subjective views and you're entitled to them but in my opinion again I think it's a case of seeking out offense to fit your agenda. The trend with advertising nowadays is to portray the male as dummy, the other trend is the rise of the female hero in tv/cinema (buffy, dark angel, alias, sarah connor, fringe, lara croft, salt and many many many more) so basically the current trends are exactly contrary to your view.

5. I'd agree with most of that

ztoical

Maguined wrote: »

would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

China and most Asian and 3rd world countries abortion postitions are very much down to gender issues and not religion or a positive view of a womens choice, as the majority of aborted babies are female. Girls are seen as burden in these countries, esp China with their one child policy. People want boys as a boy will look after them in their old age while a girl costs money with doweries and become part of her husband family when she marries so they abort girls. It's causing major gender imbalances in parts of India.

seenitall

Truley wrote: »

It's hard to call the issue of abortion a gender equality issue as we can never know, and can only take a (very) wild guess as to what the laws would be like if men could get pregnant.

I don't think it's naive however to think that it seperate from patriarchy when so many women are against abortion. In fact I would wager a greater proportion of women are against it than men. Just look at any pro life demonstrations in your area or in the media.

Excuse me, but I don't think it takes a gigantic leap of imagination/a "wild guess" to learn that men have suited themselves through the centuries and kept women subordinate throughout history using religion, laws and other secular practices such as education etc. From there it follows clear as day that they would be also suiting themselves in this matter; why wouldn't they? And please don't answer this question with the religion/right to life argument - enough murders, wars and all sorts of horrors have been and are being committed in the name of religion, or endorsed by religion, for us to know that this is nothing but a thin smoke-screen. Religion is and will endorse anything when it is convenient enough. That's because religion is the product of human race.

And as to women being against abortion as well? Men are not the only creatures capable of thinking they have the right to control what others do with their bodies.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

No offense taken, I don't know if i would agree with your evidence though, plenty of european countries are also heavily influenced by the christian church, Italy i would consider more patriarchal than Ireland and they have abortion, the same with many easter european countries and asia, these places would be more patriarchal in my opinion and have abortion so i do not view the pro-life as a gender equality issue but more a religious and moral interpretation of the definition of life and hence the definition of murder, would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

Well, all I see with your argument is that many traditionally religious/patriarchal societies have woken up and smelt the roses of more equal rights for women (EU countries such as Italy, whereas Ireland still lags behind), and the Asian ones such as China, have decided to "encourage" women for abortions solely because it suits them at the moment ("one child policy" and similar), again authorities entering the private domain and telling women what to do with their bodies, only it happens to be "the other way round" as it were.

As to the Catholic Eastern-European countries such as Poland etc. your argument is indicative of someone who is uninitiated into the finer points of what 50 years of communism actually does to a religion, on a national as well as individual level. Communism and religion do not go hand in hand, to put it mildly . There was absolutely no scope for a long, long time now, for religion to take hold as much as it did and is doing in Ireland. These are secular societies, and that 50-year tradition has actually ensured that patriarchal church never meddles in state affairs too much and women's voices be heard, even after the 1990.

Truley

seenitall wrote: »

And as to women being against abortion as well? Men are not the only creatures capable of thinking they have the right to control what others do with their bodies.

Eh, that was sort of my point Issues like abortion, sexual taboos, inequality etc are not a clear cut male versus female argument. There is a huge array of factors coming in to play and it can rarely be narrowed down to a case of 'men trying to oppress us.' I think you are over simplifying.

seenitall

Truley wrote: »

Eh, that was sort of my point Issues like abortion, sexual taboos, inequality etc are not a clear cut male versus female argument. There is a huge array of factors coming in to play and it can rarely be narrowed down to a case of 'men trying to oppress us.' I think you are over simplifying.

You are right. The gender equality issue is not solely about "men trying to oppress us" (they don't have to try very hard anyway...), it is about both men and women subscribing to out-dated patriarchal notions such as religions, many of whose regulations were originally designed specifically to oppress women. Any better?

Maguined

ztoical wrote: »

China and most Asian and 3rd world countries abortion postitions are very much down to gender issues and not religion or a positive view of a womens choice, as the majority of aborted babies are female. Girls are seen as burden in these countries, esp China with their one child policy. People want boys as a boy will look after them in their old age while a girl costs money with doweries and become part of her husband family when she marries so they abort girls. It's causing major gender imbalances in parts of India.

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

Nope, not all that complicated at all.

I don't care if the patriarchal ideology that is used as the tool to control women is Catholicism, communism, Islam or The High Church of the Hobbit, it is all the same when it comes to the end result for women. In China it just happens to be communism at the moment, however they have a centuries and centuries long tradition of, ahem, gender equality issues.

From wikipedia:

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been central to the social, legal, political, and economic organization of Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian, and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on modern civilization.[1]

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

I think you are missing the point that in THIS country, the issue of abortion has been decided by - and the biggest group that currently lobbies the government trying to ensure even rape victims would be criminalised for seeking an abortion - is wholly run by men. That Ireland hasn't yet been offered a full referendum and even why ireland is at least a generation behind other countries regarding attitudes on sex, contraception, etc is because of the extraordinary influence of that male only club on irish society.

That other countries have moved on and managed to shake off the shackles of religious and state entwinement doesn't change what it was and what it still is here. I don't think you can ignore the enormous patriarchal influence the church has had and still does have so much influence in so many facets of life and more importantly, had/s an enormous part to play in what attitudes to all manner of things are up to present day.

I only moved here what 6-7 years ago and it was a HUGE culture shock that was completely unexpected because I thought ireland and scotland would be much of a muchness. I think a lot of people here have perhaps grown up with things as the norm and can't actually see or don't know or notice the differences between ireland and many other countries that are less patriarchal.

Nevyn

Every time a woman gets ingored by a retailer/plumber/mechanic/ect who talks over her to the man who is present when she is the one asking the questions about her house/car/purchase ect that is patriachy in action.

We have come along way in the last 50 years to undo a lot of the laws which were based on the Victorian notion that women were own by thier fathers until they got married to thier husband but there are still things which need to be changed and that is the attitudes of people and the notion that women are lesser.

http://thaedydal.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/ten-things-an-irish-woman-could-not-do-in-1970/#comments

Maguined

seenitall wrote: »

Nope, not all that complicated at all.

I don't care if the patriarchal ideology that is used as the tool to control women is Catholicism, communism, Islam or The High Church of the Hobbit, it is all the same when it comes to the end result for women. In China it just happens to be communism at the moment, however they have a centuries and centuries long tradition of, ahem, gender equality issues.

From wikipedia:

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been central to the social, legal, political, and economic organization of Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian, and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on modern civilization.[1]

So some countries refuse abortion because of patriarchal control and some countries accept abortion because of patriarchal control, do you view any countries that have accepted abortion because of non patriarchal control? Or that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control?

Maguined

Thaedydal wrote: »

Every time a woman gets ingored by a retailer/plumber/mechanic/ect who talks over her to the man who is present when she is the one asking the questions about her house/car/purchase ect that is patriachy in action.

We have come along way in the last 50 years to undo a lot of the laws which were based on the Victorian notion that women were own by thier fathers until they got married to thier husband but there are still things which need to be changed and that is the attitudes of people and the notion that women are lesser.

http://thaedydal.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/ten-things-an-irish-woman-could-not-do-in-1970/#comments

This is the sort of example i would agree with completely, and i have experienced this myself going to a mechanic with my girlfriend at the time, the mechanic kept talking to me when it was clearly my girlfriends car and i didn't drive and knew nothing about cars.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

So some countries refuse abortion because of patriarchal control and some countries accept abortion because of patriarchal control, do you view any countries that have accepted abortion because of non patriarchal control? Or that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control?

Well, I don't know how much clearer I can get, but I will try:

There are no countries that accept abortion because of patriarchal control. They can only accept it in spite of it. There are ones that "encourage" abortion, regardless of women's wishes, they make it a state policy because of a state agenda (China). My "wild guess" is that they wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't behind them centuries of patriarchal systems (or distinct lack of democracy), no matter that communism is now the top dog. Communism in the Far East did not serve all the same purposes that it did in Europe. It is an ideology, that, as any other ideology, can be warped and moulded to suit the agenda of the time.

Do I think that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control? Yes, absolutely. Example: myself. I think abortion is depriving a life and I don't much care for that. However, I am still some way away from thinking my personal opinions give me the right to determine what women do with their bodies. See the difference between that and "enforcing patriarchal control"?

BTW, another, more roundabout answer to that question of yours would be a counter-question: ever met a pro-lifer who wasn't religious? Cos I don't think I have.

metrovelvet

Maguined wrote: »

This is the sort of example i would agree with completely, and i have experienced this myself going to a mechanic with my girlfriend at the time, the mechanic kept talking to me when it was clearly my girlfriends car and i didn't drive and knew nothing about cars.

I have been lucky with mechanics. I find doctors to be the worst in my experience.

metrovelvet

seenitall wrote: »

Well, I don't know how much clearer I can get, but I will try:

There are no countries that accept abortion because of patriarchal control. They can only accept it in spite of it. There are ones that "encourage" abortion, regardless of women's wishes, they make it a state policy because of a state agenda (China). My "wild guess" is that they wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't behind them centuries of patriarchal systems (or distinct lack of democracy), no matter that communism is now the top dog. Communism in the Far East did not serve all the same purposes that it did in Europe. It is an ideology, that, as any other ideology, can be warped and moulded to suit the agenda of the time.

Do I think that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control? Yes, absolutely. Example: myself. I think abortion is depriving a life and I don't much care for that. However, I am still some way away from thinking my personal opinions give me the right to determine what women do with their bodies. See the difference between that and "enforcing patriarchal control"?

BTW, another, more roundabout answer to that question of yours would be a counter-question: ever met a pro-lifer who wasn't religious? Cos I don't think I have.

Sorry but France has a very high abortion rate. Has a gazillion different ways to terminate your pregnancy, as pro choicers euphamistically call it, and imo is very patriarchal, much moreso than Ireland in my experience.

I think abortion serves a different patriarchy. The patriarchy of labour and business.

Mens rights call it a gender issue because they cant have abortions. They cant terminate their responsibilities to their children the way women can. The closest to abortion they can do is abandonment, but they cant have financial abortions.

LittleBook

Maguined wrote: »

But is rape not perpetrated by individuals and not endorsed by a society?

I'm trying my very best not to come across as sensationalist here but isn't a society where:

- 40% of the victims of reported rapes considered withdrawing the charge due to the poor reaction by gardaí
- only one 1 in 3 rape cases is actually brought to trial
- of those brought to trial, only 7% result in convictions

a society which is, on some level, endorsing rape? And that’s without even starting on sentencing for rape.

Rape & Justice In Ireland

I read a horrible article some years back which quoted some of the closing statements from judges in rape cases:

"No actual injury was inflicted on the victim other than rape … was just something that happened between them but he went too far” – [The attacker] had jumped the woman he attacked. He threatened to kill her. He had left her with bruises all over her body.

“The court is convinced that it is not dealing with a man who is likely to reoffend. We cannot believe that an exemplary sentence would serve any purpose in this case.” – Referring to the perpetrator in the “X Case” who served four years and upon release obtained a taxi driver licence and went on to sexually assault a 15-year-old girl in his taxi (for which he was sentenced to three and a half years).

“If it wasn't for drink, you wouldn't have laid a hand on her.” – To a man who battered a 61-year-old woman to death … I won’t mention how this case involved sexual assault.

“It strikes me as one of the kind of accidents in life that can happen to almost anyone.” - A judge as he convicted a man of the rape of a seven-year-old girl.

“Our Supreme Court has said that it is only in the most exceptional circumstances that a court should consider departing from a significant custodial sentence.” – The judge in the Lavinia Kerwick case who went on to adjourn sentencing for a year in order to give the rapist (who never served any custodial sentence for the attack) “a chance as a human being”.

When A Woman Is Raped Her Ordeal Has Only Just Begun

Maguined wrote: »

i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

In most cases of "patriarchal countries" where abortion is now legal, the state successfully separated from their "patriarchal church" some time ago which is not the case in Ireland. For the record though, I'd never have considered Italy to be patriarchal, Rome ... yes, Italy ... no

Taking a step back from abortion to contraception though ... there was a thread here recently discussing long-term (for want of a better word) contraception options in Ireland which was a real eye-opener for me.

Has Anyone Ever Considered Getting Their Tubes Tied

To cut a long story short ... vasectomies, no problem. Tubal litigations or even Mirena coils ... "woah there, you're a woman, you're supposed to have babies, we can't in good conscience let you go down this route!"

Having said all that, I don't personally feel "oppressed" on a day-to-day basis but I have never needed the support of the state in relation to any of the above.

metrovelvet

^ While I agree with you about the culture of rape, you cant pin down Ireland without comparing it to other countries who have divorced from patriarchy.

You think those things dont happen in the US, or England or France?

And if you think Italy is not patriarchal, well... I don't know what Italy you were in...

seenitall

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry but France has a very high abortion rate. Has a gazillion different ways to terminate your pregnancy, as pro choicers euphamistically call it, and imo is very patriarchal, much moreso than Ireland in my experience.

I think abortion serves a different patriarchy. The patriarchy of labour and business.

Mens rights call it a gender issue because they cant have abortions. They cant terminate their responsibilities to their children the way women can. The closest to abortion they can do is abandonment, but they cant have financial abortions.

Have to agree to disagree on France. As Xiney said, one sure-fire way of determining the level of a patriarchy is the abortion issue. It is paramount when it comes to gender equality. In this, Ireland lags behind the rest of traditionally patriarchal countries such as France and Italy, ergo it is more patriarchal.

Maguined

seenitall wrote: »

Well, I don't know how much clearer I can get, but I will try:

There are no countries that accept abortion because of patriarchal control. They can only accept it in spite of it. There are ones that "encourage" abortion, regardless of women's wishes, they make it a state policy because of a state agenda (China). My "wild guess" is that they wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't behind them centuries of patriarchal systems (or distinct lack of democracy), no matter that communism is now the top dog. Communism in the Far East did not serve all the same purposes that it did in Europe. It is an ideology, that, as any other ideology, can be warped and moulded to suit the agenda of the time.

Do I think that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control? Yes, absolutely. Example: myself. I think abortion is depriving a life and I don't much care for that. However, I am still some way away from thinking my personal opinions give me the right to determine what women do with their bodies. See the difference between that and "enforcing patriarchal control"?

BTW, another, more roundabout answer to that question of yours would be a counter-question: ever met a pro-lifer who wasn't religious? Cos I don't think I have.

2 but they are definitely in the minority however even if i do not agree with their viewpoint i can understand how passionate they are with their opinions. Personally i do not view this as life, i view it as a clump of cells so i fully believe it is a woman's choice what to do with her body, however if people view it as life than you are not simply choosing what to do with their own bodies but choosing what to do with the life and body of another individual so it all comes down to the grey area of at what point does this clump of cells become life? It's just down to individuals interpretations.

You say you are anti-abortion for yourself as you believe it is ending life but you would not force this opinion on others, at what point is the cut off however when it stop becomes a womans choice about her body and is a choice affecting the life of another? Would you know any pro-choicer that would support a 9month abortion because it was still in the woman's body so her choice?

metrovelvet

seenitall wrote: »

Have to agree to disagree on France. As Xiney said, one sure-fire way of determining the level of a patriarchy is the abortion issue. It is paramount when it comes to gender equality. In this, Ireland lags behind the rest of traditionally patriarchal countries such as France and Italy, ergo it is more patriarchal.

EH EH. My son nearly didnt have necessary surgery because I couldnt get a fathers signature.

Look at France's divorce laws. The abortion option is there for girls who get pregnant by married men. They dont have support systems for out of wedlock pregnancies.

Ickle Magoo

seenitall wrote: »

Have to agree to disagree on France. As Xiney said, one sure-fire way of determining the level of a patriarchy is the abortion issue. It is paramount when it comes to gender equality. In this, Ireland lags behind the rest of traditionally patriarchal countries such as France and Italy, ergo it is more patriarchal.

Lags is putting it mildly.

Italy legalised abortion in the late 70's and a referendum regarding repealing the law was wholeheartedly rejected way back in 1981. Despite abortion being an offence punishable by death up until as late as 1942 france legalised abortion waaaay back in 1975. That ireland hasn't even reached the point of offering a referendum 30years later is really quite staggering.

metrovelvet wrote: »

EH EH. My son nearly didnt have necessary surgery because I couldnt get a fathers signature.

Look at France's divorce laws. The abortion option is there for girls who get pregnant by married men. They dont have support systems for out of wedlock pregnancies.

Requiring both parents signatures for a child to get surgery isn't that uncommon.

The abortion option is there for anyone until 12 weeks of pregnancy who has undertaken counselling on alternatives - especially minors and unmarried women...

pickarooney

seenitall wrote: »

Have to agree to disagree on France. As Xiney said, one sure-fire way of determining the level of a patriarchy is the abortion issue. It is paramount when it comes to gender equality. In this, Ireland lags behind the rest of traditionally patriarchal countries such as France and Italy, ergo it is more patriarchal.

I've been reading this thread for a bit and still can't quite nail down how you're all making this link between the status of abortion and patriarchy. Ireland is one of the few countries where virtually everything has to pass by a referendum and abortion is one of those issues. Granted, it's been a relatively long time since the straight-up issue of legalisting abortion was tabled, but when it was, the people, not the Catholic church or the government, chose not to allow it. Their reasons for doing stem from their own personal beliefs.

Using abortion as a single benchmark for how patriarchal a society is, is frankly preposterous.

metrovelvet

I cant see the link between illegal abortion and patriarchy either. I think that is total bunkem.

Abortion is available in the US legally up to whenever. There is no term limit consititutionally. ANd that makes sense - if it is about a woman's body. I think England its 23 weeks.

I don't know what the term limits are in France.

But anyone who says France and Italy are not patriarchal are BLIND. I think way more than Ireland.

No way would I be looked at as damaged goods in Ireland once I was pregnant. France and Italy. You bet I am.

How about domestic violence laws? How would you say that is treated in Sicily?

Its not all about abortion. Thats what I HATE about feminism. IT was the biggest mistake if the 60s - to make it all about abortion.

Why dont you look at how these countries accommodate motherhood?

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

2 but they are definitely in the minority however even if i do not agree with their viewpoint i can understand how passionate they are with their opinions. Personally i do not view this as life, i view it as a clump of cells so i fully believe it is a woman's choice what to do with her body, however if people view it as life than you are not simply choosing what to do with their own bodies but choosing what to do with the life and body of another individual so it all comes down to the grey area of at what point does this clump of cells become life? It's just down to individuals interpretations.

You say you are anti-abortion for yourself as you believe it is ending life but you would not force this opinion on others, at what point is the cut off however when it stop becomes a womans choice about her body and is a choice affecting the life of another? Would you know any pro-choicer that would support a 9month abortion because it was still in the woman's body so her choice?

To cut to the chase, there are medically no 9 month abortions. The cut-off point for abortion in UK is at the moment "when fetus can survive outside the womb", anything after that is premature birth. The Corinthian in the Humanities has an interesting theory as to the development of pro-lifers' argument once that the cut-off point slides lower and lower due to medical development... we will see.

To be perfectly honest with you, beginning to get a little out of my depth here. I don't deny abortion a whole is a complex subject, yet the aspect of it that we see on the ground in this country is very simple IMO. I don't think that the talk of 9 month abortions has anything to do with the reality of the repression of Irish women by the patriarchal system in place and of such enormous influence in the public sphere of life, as Ickle has mentioned earlier.

Ickle Magoo

Eh, pickarooney, in a country synonymous with the influence of the catholic church; what do you think formed those "personal beliefs" if not the all male club that's had ireland by it's short and curlies for so long now. It's ludicrous to suggest the rcc had no influence on past or present views regarding those political matters that would contradict their teachings.

Metrovelvet, I haven't seen anyone say france or italy are not patriarchal, I think most countries are to one degree or another but in my experience they are less patriarchal than ireland. It's possible for two countries to be generally patriarchal and one more staunchly patriarchal regarding certain issues - I think irelands general apathy towards the rcc having influence in political matters would be a prime example of that.

seenitall

pickarooney wrote: »

I've been reading this thread for a bit and still can't quite nail down how you're all making this link between the status of abortion and patriarchy. Ireland is one of the few countries where virtually everything has to pass by a referendum and abortion is one of those issues. Granted, it's been a relatively long time since the straight-up issue of legalisting abortion was tabled, but when it was, the people, not the Catholic church or the government, chose not to allow it. Their reasons for doing stem from their own personal beliefs.

Using abortion as a single benchmark for how patriarchal a society is, is frankly preposterous.

Oh boy Wake up and smell the coffee! And where do these "personal beliefs" stem from?? Wouldn't be the Patriarchy Supremo, the Pope's little business, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

It seems to be so ingrained in the mentality that a lot of people are still blissfully unaware just how brainwashed they have been.

pickarooney

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Eh, pickarooney, in a country synonymous with the influence of the catholic church; what do you think formed those "personal beliefs" if not the all male club that's had ireland by it's short and curlies for so long now.

Honestly, it's a little insulting, to both pro-lifers and the Irish in general, for you to suggest that Irish people are not capable of forming their own personal beliefs and that they are somehow inherently more succeptible to outside influences. Your posts really give the impression that you hold the beliefs of a pro-lifer to be lesser, misguided or just plain wrong and that the only reason a person could hold these beliefs is that they have been deluded by the big, bad patriarchs of the RCC.

Maguined

LittleBook wrote: »

I'm trying my very best not to come across as sensationalist here but isn't a society where:

- 40% of the victims of reported rapes considered withdrawing the charge due to the poor reaction by gardaí
- only one 1 in 3 rape cases is actually brought to trial
- of those brought to trial, only 7% result in convictions

a society which is, on some level, endorsing rape? And that’s without even starting on sentencing for rape. d[/URL]

Thanks LittleBook i think this has been the best example so far of what i was really looking for, gender discrimination attitudes will always exist in individuals but this is clearly examples of it being enforced by judges which are supposed to represent society itself and enforce the laws of that society.

I didn't quote everything as it was such a large quote.

Though the low conviction of these horrible crimes i would not consider indication itself as by its nature it can be extremely difficult to have the evidence necessary to reach a conviction i think it is disgusting what those judges said in those cases and they should be fired from their positions as their comments were extremely offensive and i do not think would represent how the vast majority of society would have viewed the situation.

I also agree that sentencing for criminal acts needs to be revised especially for sexual assault cases, it is horrible that the evidence needed for a conviction in these cases practically requires being caught in the act by a third party so even in these extremely few cases the fact the assailant gets small sentencing disgusts me completely.

The tubes tying may not be patriarchal enforcement though, merely most doctors in modern societies always rate their legal safety before the concerns of the patient, any elective surgery is only performed where the doctor can disavow himself of any risk associated with the surgery. I could be wrong and apologies if i misread that thread before but i thought i read that doctors will perform reversible surgeries but do not perform irreversible surgeries for fear that in 10 years time the patient will change their minds and sue the doctor. The same would also apply to men though, men can voluntarily get their tubes tied but i doubt any doctor in the country would perform an irreversible severing of the tubes. Again apologies if i read that other tread wrong but that was my understanding of the issue.